Is it must?

[daniyalahmed]

Dear Seniors,

I have gone through a lot of DMCs and to my utter disgust, CSS is not about hardwork, or smart work, it's about trend.

People who have opted for Punjabi, Persian, Arabic, Psychology, Audit and accounting have a very good chance of securing top positions. Others who opted for IR, Indo - Pakistan History, Muslim Law have been nailed. Some subjects are average scoring like journalism, forestry, sociology.

Is CSS all about languages?

I mean it's so ludicrous that someone is given preference just because he has opted punjabi. People have scored 80+ in Punjabi, while you won't see such scores in any other subjects. For arabic and persian, people have scored 150+ and audit and accounting too, with 150 + scores. Psychology is also 140+ subject. Islamic History ranges from 120 - 130+

Isn't it a travesty? Mind boggling.

Most of the DMGs serving this country, got their just because they were smart enough to understand that persian and arabic are more scoring. The just jumped on the bandwagon and got there. No wonder, pakistani bureaucracy is famed for " not letting things happen" then being as servants of the people.

Where is the transparency? All subjects should be equally scoring. If there is discrimination in scoring, it should be mentioned right at the outset. This is both stupid and absolutely unjust. Rather then just accepting that English Literature is less scoring, why don't people resort to Supreme Court or other forum. If this subject is so worthless, why is it even included in CSS list of subjects. Just leave Punjabi, Persian and other useless subjects for people to select from.

Disgusted.

CSS is 50 percent subject selection and 50 percent LUCK.

You get 60, just for opting Punjabi and if you study it, you get 80+

Amazing!

[Werewolf]

NODS!

But wait, don't you think that rather than trend, it is again the "smart work" to select such scoring subjects?

CSS is the game of score, so play it like gamblers.

[Buddha]

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed

Dear Seniors,

I have gone through a lot of DMCs and to my utter disgust, CSS is not about hardwork, or smart work, it's about trend.

People who have opted for Punjabi, Persian, Arabic, Psychology, Audit and accounting have a very good chance of securing top positions. Others who opted for IR, Indo - Pakistan History, Muslim Law have been nailed. Some subjects are average scoring like journalism, forestry, sociology.

Is CSS all about languages?

I mean it's so ludicrous that someone is given preference just because he has opted punjabi. People have scored 80+ in Punjabi, while you won't see such scores in any other subjects. For arabic and persian, people have scored 150+ and audit and accounting too, with 150 + scores. Psychology is also 140+ subject. Islamic History ranges from 120 - 130+

Isn't it a travesty? Mind boggling.

Most of the DMGs serving this country, got their just because they were smart enough to understand that persian and arabic are more scoring. The just jumped on the bandwagon and got there. No wonder, pakistani bureaucracy is famed for " not letting things happen" then being as servants of the people.

Where is the transparency? All subjects should be equally scoring. If there is discrimination in scoring, it should be mentioned right at the outset. This is both stupid and absolutely unjust. Rather then just accepting that English Literature is less scoring, why don't people resort to Supreme Court or other forum. If this subject is so worthless, why is it even included in CSS list of subjects. Just leave Punjabi, Persian and other useless subjects for people to select from.

Disgusted.

CSS is 50 percent subject selection and 50 percent LUCK.

You get 60, just for opting Punjabi and if you study it, you get 80+

Amazing!

Do you think they got their selection just by choosing trendy subjects and they didn't have to work hard on it? Do you seriously think that? Then why don't you try it, maybe you will also make it to the list of toppers
Some subjects are easy and some subjects are difficult, how can you make sure that all subjects are uniform. It is common knowledge so why would it has to be mentioned somewhere? Is it mentioned in the school text books that subject A is easy compared to subject B? Subject selection depends on personal choice. One topper even had Indo-Pak History. What do you say about him? I quoted an exception, so it's even possible to make it up there without relying on Punjabi! Not everyone would choose Persian or Arabic or Punjabi even with the knowledge that they are very scoring, and they still may reach the top. And it's quite preposterous to blame administrative problems created by bureaucracy on the choice of subject list of CSS.
According to you CSS is 50% luck and 50% subject selection? Really? I think then we should all let go of our books and teachers, and choose Punjabi, Persian, Accounting and Psychology. And wear amulets for luck! Maybe we will all pass!

[daniyalahmed]

All subjects should be equally scoring.

CSS should employ percentile basis as criteria of selection and not marks, which is ludicrous. Percentile ensures that a person, who has been at the "rough end of the stick" in terms of a strict examiner, would be equally rewarded.

For Example, a person opting for English literature, score 100 out of 200, he's a topper in English literature but unfortunately, he suffers because someone in Accounting has scored 140 marks. These 140 marks will end his "dream". Now if we had a percentile scheme in place. The same person would be relegated to a much inferior position.

and instead of accepting or becoming an apologist, all subjects easy or tough would be weighed on the same scale. This is transparency, this is equality, this is allowing people to have a fair chance. Also, the result should be available in FPSC website alongwith marks breakup, so that no one has excess advantage due to privilege of superior information.

We need a reform minded attitude, in order to bring a change for the betterment. Otherwise, we'll stay the same forever.

Regards,

[Werewolf]

Originally Posted by daniyalahmed

All subjects should be equally scoring.

CSS should employ percentile basis as criteria of selection and not marks, which is ludicrous. Percentile ensures that a person, who has been at the "rough end of the stick" in terms of a strict examiner, would be equally rewarded.

For Example, a person opting for English literature, score 100 out of 200, he's a topper in English literature but unfortunately, he suffers because someone in Accounting has scored 140 marks. These 140 marks will end his "dream". Now if we had a percentile scheme in place. The same person would be relegated to a much inferior position.

and instead of accepting or becoming an apologist, all subjects easy or tough would be weighed on the same scale. This is transparency, this is equality, this is allowing people to have a fair chance. Also, the result should be available in FPSC website alongwith marks breakup, so that no one has excess advantage due to privilege of superior information.

We need a reform minded attitude, in order to bring a change for the betterment. Otherwise, we'll stay the same forever.

Regards,

Really very useful suggestions.. There should be some leverage given to intrinsically low scoring subjects to ensure equity.
Good point raised man

[salmanshahid2002]

Daniyal is right and I am touched by his views. One must be very careful while opting optional subjects.
I think, one must keep in mind both of the following factors while picking optionals:
1- Interest
2- Scoring trend

One's interest in the subject coupled with the scoring trend of that very subject will lead to secure a good position in written examination.

[daniyalahmed]

Thanks everyone, I have a few suggestion.

Rationale & History of Competitive Examinations :

We have often heard the cliché that Bureaucracy is the back bone of any society. They facilitate the efficient functioning of the state. But, what are the basis of competitive services? CSS stems from the idea of bureaucracy presented by Plato, the father of western thought. Plato, elucidated that there are three types of people. Of the most, premium type, he ascribed the role of bureaucracy. He labeled them as "philosopher kings" in his magnum opus work, "The Republic". Plato also highlighted, that the babies should be separated from their parents, at birth and raised in protective settings, that would imbibe in them, all the values essential for the progress of citizenry. CSA ( Civil Service Academy ) is a watered down, version of this thought.

There are four types of governments, Oligarchy, Democracy, Monarchy and Aristocracy. Modern definition also includes Capitalism and Communism in governance structures. Britain, the mother of democracy has all forms of governance. It has Monarchy in the form of Sovereign, Democracy in the form of Parliament, Aristocracy in the form of house of Lords and Oligarchy in the form of Bureaucrats and Legislators. Conservative party is more aligned to liberal values like free markets, while Labor party is left wing.
This provides a perfect admixture of governance. Everyone has his own sphere, which no one can transgress, as a result accountability and checks and balances ensue.

Competitive Services in Pakistan :

Competitive Services selection process is deeply flawed in Pakistan. Reason for this statement are as follows.

Reason # 1 :

As mentioned above, certain subjects are more scoring then others. Every year, there is a "trend". Mindlessly, people follow this trend, instead of asking for reform. A respected member of this forum, Redmax changed his subject combination right at the eleventh hour, in order to accommodate Arabic, as DMCs of IHC in 2010, reflected low scores. Another member and serving bureaucrat, Dr. Valentino, has come up with a detailed chart to highlight high and low scoring subjects.

There is a genuine need to address this issue. This comes under the ambit of privileged information. Most of the people are not aware of scoring combination, they instead opt for subjects, which they deem to be in concord with their aptitude, end result is that they score poor marks. Remember, we are talking about a competitive exams, In 2012 15000 candidates applied, whereas as 11000 actually took the test. 11000 candidates for 200 seats, means that allocation rate is 1%. Meaning, 1 in 100 candidates actually makes it to CSS.

Privileged information means that some information, owing to their position in bureaucracy or FPSC are in a position to extract information and benefit their relative etc. In such an environment academies also flourish, that charge exorbitant fees from candidates. Both, way only the rich and the connected are in a position to acquire this information.

Other people, can also get this information, through forums like CSS forum, but please remember that they expend time and effort. If we take time value of money, this is also a loss to the society. Some pressure groups, obtain undue advantage, posing serious loss and misallocation of scare resources in society.

Reason # 2 :

It erodes the confidence of people in CSS examination. Even, most individuals who have cleared CSS, clearly state that CSS is a matter of LUCK. Plain and Simple. The highest examination in the country, is a matter of luck. While, the entire world is moving on scientific basis, we are still languishing on luck to be our savior. This should not be the case.


Reforms and suggestions :

All subjects should be equally scoring. A percentile method is suggested here. Percentile method means that if 100 students opt for English literature and the topped in this particular subject scores 100 out of 200 marks. He should be right up their in the 90 - 100 percentile category. Same goes for a student who topped Audit and accounting with 170 marks. Imagine, 170 - 100 = 70 Marks. This is the difference, that is created by opting a low scoring subject. Never, would a person, opting for "difficult subject" as according to "Buddha" would ever achieve his end of making it to CSS.

This would be a great equalizer and a leveled. Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah said, Justice, Fairplay and equality should be the guiding light for Pakistan. Unfortunately, in order to facilitate a few, we have forgotten his motto. There is every reason to believe, that subject combination can seal fate of candidates. One candidate in CSS 2012, had 69 position overall, but he failed miserably in IR with 24 marks!. His mistake, was that he had opted for IR.

Reform # 2 :

All results including subject scoring trends should be uploaded in FPSC site. Histograms and pie charts can be a better tool to express "trends". Gradually, transparency will ensue.


Suggestion :

Each year FPSC asks frivolous topics for essay, like city life and country life. They should put an essay topic, like Reforms in Civil Services for atleast 3 years consecutively. I believe that during the 2 and 3 year, brilliant suggestions would come from people, who will scour through everything, just to get through CSS.


Conclusion :

Transparency, Justice and Equality, should be the way forward.

Regards,
Daniyal Ahmed Javed

[Buddha]

We have often heard the cliché that Bureaucracy is the back bone of any society. They facilitate the efficient functioning of the state. But, what are the basis of competitive services? CSS stems from the idea of bureaucracy presented by Plato, the father of western thought. Plato, elucidated that there are three types of people. Of the most, premium type, he ascribed the role of bureaucracy. He labeled them as "philosopher kings" in his magnum opus work, "The Republic". Plato also highlighted, that the babies should be separated from their parents, at birth and raised in protective settings, that would imbibe in them, all the values essential for the progress of citizenry. CSA ( Civil Service Academy ) is a watered down, version of this thought.

I guess you're not really aware of the Plato's work, Republic. He suggested Philosopher-kings to be like Brahamans and his entire political organization resembled the Hindu caste system. There were state officials before Plato and after him and also in parts of the world who hadn't even heard the name of Plato e.g. Chinese Bureaucracy. It was only recently that public administrators were started being given formal training. You can refer to any public administration book for the history. I doubt their inspiration was Plato rather just achieving efficiency in the administrative work.

There are four types of governments, Oligarchy, Democracy, Monarchy and Aristocracy. Modern definition also includes Capitalism and Communism in governance structures. Britain, the mother of democracy has all forms of governance. It has Monarchy in the form of Sovereign, Democracy in the form of Parliament, Aristocracy in the form of house of Lords and Oligarchy in the form of Bureaucrats and Legislators. Conservative party is more aligned to liberal values like free markets, while Labor party is left wing.
This provides a perfect admixture of governance. Everyone has his own sphere, which no one can transgress, as a result accountability and checks and balances ensue.

British monarch is just a toothless ceremonial head, it doesn't imply they have monarchy working over there. I think you should also check how can one get membership of the House of Lords. It is not 1500s. Legislators are Parliamentarians who are elected, that makes them part of Democracy. But what's the point of writing all this info-though misleading- about British political system?


There is a genuine need to address this issue. This comes under the ambit of privileged information. Most of the people are not aware of scoring combination, they instead opt for subjects, which they deem to be in concord with their aptitude, end result is that they score poor marks. Remember, we are talking about a competitive exams, In 2012 15000 candidates applied, whereas as 11000 actually took the test. 11000 candidates for 200 seats, means that allocation rate is 1%. Meaning, 1 in 100 candidates actually makes it to CSS.

Most people are aware of that. If it hadn't been the case, most people wouldn't have chosen the so-called 'trendy' subjects the most. Just check out the number of people who have chosen Geography and Psychology vs Philosophy and English Literature. The point you're making is that just because they don't choose 'trendy' subjects they fail. How about the huge number of people who choose those 'trendy' subjects and still fail? Trust me there is a huge number of them and if you don't trust me, check out the stats. My point is they fail because they don't study!

Privileged information means that some information, owing to their position in bureaucracy or FPSC are in a position to extract information and benefit their relative etc. In such an environment academies also flourish, that charge exorbitant fees from candidates. Both, way only the rich and the connected are in a position to acquire this information.

Other people, can also get this information, through forums like CSS forum, but please remember that they expend time and effort. If we take time value of money, this is also a loss to the society. Some pressure groups, obtain undue advantage, posing serious loss and misallocation of scare resources in society.

I think you yourself have refuted your argument. The info is all available on the internet. Reading it on the internet will take you how much more time and how much more effort than listening to one of your 'connected' cousins or academy lecturer? Flawed argument. Time value of money, scarce resources? Dude! is that supposed to sound intellectual?


It erodes the confidence of people in CSS examination. Even, most individuals who have cleared CSS, clearly state that CSS is a matter of LUCK. Plain and Simple. The highest examination in the country, is a matter of luck. While, the entire world is moving on scientific basis, we are still languishing on luck to be our savior. This should not be the case.


Have you taken account of countless many who have attributed their success to sheer hard work?


All subjects should be equally scoring. A percentile method is suggested here. Percentile method means that if 100 students opt for English literature and the topped in this particular subject scores 100 out of 200 marks. He should be right up their in the 90 - 100 percentile category. Same goes for a student who topped Audit and accounting with 170 marks. Imagine, 170 - 100 = 70 Marks. This is the difference, that is created by opting a low scoring subject. Never, would a person, opting for "difficult subject" as according to "Buddha" would ever achieve his end of making it to CSS.

I never said that. Don't misquote. I met a person who had English Literature as his elective. He had got more marks in that subject than any of his other electives. Just the mention of English Literature scares so many people they don't even try it, trusting just on hearsay. And Doctor Valentino's chart is about the most chosen subjects, he didn't take account of the less chosen subjects in which candidates had scored higher. Noor-ul-Fatima, another topper had Urdu as her optional.

This would be a great equalizer and a leveled. Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah said, Justice, Fairplay and equality should be the guiding light for Pakistan. Unfortunately, in order to facilitate a few, we have forgotten his motto. There is every reason to believe, that subject combination can seal fate of candidates. One candidate in CSS 2012, had 69 position overall, but he failed miserably in IR with 24 marks!. His mistake, was that he had opted for IR.

Maybe he didn't study as much for IR as he should have. Why would you assume he failed just because he had IR.


Each year FPSC asks frivolous topics for essay, like city life and country life. They should put an essay topic, like Reforms in Civil Services for atleast 3 years consecutively. I believe that during the 2 and 3 year, brilliant suggestions would come from people, who will scour through everything, just to get through CSS.


Do you think narrowing down the syllabus of essay to just reform-like questions is a fair test of writing and analytical abilites?

Anyway, you can send your suggestions to FPSC. Follow the link

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dfV...xeLBw/viewform

[daniyalahmed]

Too literal and personalized perspective.

1. I never stated that "Reforms in FPSC" should be the only topic in CSS examination. I have suggested that it should be questioned, with variations in consecutive years, thus allowing a body of information, which can be of use to FPSC.

2. The entire selection process of CSS is archaic. Bill Gates or Warren Buffet don't hire people who have profound knowledge over sociology. They are dealing with computers and investment banking respectively, so they need people who have these skills.

3. If there is no difference in trend. I suggest you, to take the lead, break the myth and opt for English Literature. Also, Why, doesn't FPSC declare the subject wise break up of marks. As far as Dr. Valentino is concerned, he also shared marks of probationers in the subject. People have inferred scoring trend from the same chart.

4. Lack of transparency creates hearsay, that's why I'm trying to end.

5. British Monarchy even though ceremonial, still exists. Through the royals the british project their pageantry. They show case themselves to this world via their royalty. THe point of highlighting the governance structures was that societies are run on checks and balances. Britain, became the biggest empire in the world, because it had efficient checks and balances in place. Further, bureaucracy is incorporated in their governance framework. They have absorbed and incorporated the best practices or best ideas of all governance structures.

Please don't take anything personally. All this debate about subjects should never arise in the first place. It's because of the skewed distribution of scores that we have a complete subject analysis section in CSS forum.


Percentile method is the best approach to obviate examiner bias.

Regards,

[Bilal Hassan]

You are right Daniyal, I acquiesce with your stance.

This trend is not only in CSS but everywhere, I had opted Political Science, Philosophy and Business Administration in my PMS exam and I faced the music, despite showing good performance in my own subjects, I could not compete with those who had opted Punjabi, Mass comm and Social Work. My subjects Political science, Philosophy and Business Admin gave marks 132, 130 and 120 max respectively while Punjabi gave 150 marks at average and people scored even 166.

70% of people who got allocated had Mass comm, Social Work and Punjabi as their optionals while almost all of them had one or the other of these subjects which most of the time turns out to be Punjabi. So those non allocated people committed the sin of not opting Punjabi.

Similarly people with Psychology in 2011 and 2012 got 140 easily and with little hard work they crossed 150, so the crime or blunder made by those who could not secure allocation was that they had not opted Psychology.

If they have to bless the certain subjects, then why have other subjects at all? Now someone would come up with a logic that who asked me not to opt Punjabi or Psychology! My answer is that the point is not that I missed the allocation owing to the fact above cited, the point is that what is the need for having other subjects if all are given the initiative to opt few?

We do need an overhaul of CSS exam, if we have to leave a competitive exam, aimed at choosing bureaucrats, on the matters of luck then why make the people do such hard work, just throw a dice and decide who gets which group.