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Old Wednesday, November 04, 2009
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Default Comparing DMG with other cadre

Aoa ..
Hope you are in best of yur health . My query is regarding DMG .I have read about DMG in this and other topis but some are very old posts . As i am confused about the situation now and in Musharaf times . Because they have made AC and DC again . Whats their salary. What power and perks they enjoy ? Is there anyone else than FSP go to wolton academy ? DMGs still go to that academy in lahore ? only there or sumwhere too .. Kindy clear my vision regarding this aspect as i am interested in DMG but dont have much knowledge about it and its current situations

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Old Thursday, November 05, 2009
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Originally Posted by n0m!! View Post
Aoa ..
Hope you are in best of yur health . My query is regarding DMG .I have read about DMG in this and other topis but some are very old posts . As i am confused about the situation now and in Musharaf times . Because they have made AC and DC again . Whats their salary. What power and perks they enjoy ? Is there anyone else than FSP go to wolton academy ? DMGs still go to that academy in lahore ? only there or sumwhere too .. Kindy clear my vision regarding this aspect as i am interested in DMG but dont have much knowledge about it and its current situations
AoA,
Though the Nazims have virtually lost all their powers, the DMG has still not totally regained its lost glory. Young DMG officers are still appointed as DDO (Deputy District Officer) of either Revenue, Finance or Planning department. The proposal of appointing them as Administrator for Tehsil is still there, but keeping in view the overwhelming opposition it is facing, it is safe to think that their appointment as Administrator will be temporary, if ever done. As for perks and privileges, a 17th grade DMG officer has an independent office, a government vehicle usually a jeep (not pajero) along with a driver, and also easily gets accommodation in small districts, but in provincial capitals and large districts accommodation is hard to find. The salary is around 25,000. Being a DDO (R) he heads all the Tehsildars, and Patwaris of the Tehsil.
The CTP of DMG officers is held with all the other groups at Walton Road, and its STP is held at Mall Road, Lahore.
In the nutshell DMG is a good group to join, but if you are a male candidate then i'll recommend to join PSP, as PSP has far more powers than DMG.
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Originally Posted by anwaartheravian View Post
AoA,

In the nutshell DMG is a good group to join, but if you are a male candidate then i'll recommend to join PSP, as PSP has far more powers than DMG.
Before I waste my time in replying to this post and justify the obvious about who enjoys 'far more powers', let me ask you which group do you belong to? Have you even cleared the exam and what is the source of your information about the DMG ?
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Old Friday, November 06, 2009
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Having its roots in the former Civil Service of Pakistan (CSP), the District Management Group (DMG) despite the recent historic restructuring of power and authority in Pakistan, continues to maintain its niche of being a central and one of the most coveted Administrative service groups of the Civil Service of Pakistan albeit with a slightly changed scope and mandate.

The DMG basically draws its vigor from its singular service structure having forward and backward linkages Its unique service organization, on one hand attracts the top achievers in the civil services examination to this Group, and subsequently this structure having enormous horizontal and vertical mobility chances enables the selected officers to occupy critical and leading administrative positions from the very beginning of their careers. It is again these vast horizontal mobility opportunities, which facilitate most challenging openings to the DMG officers.

They usually begin careers as administrative officers of Government at sub-division level responsible for a combination of judicial, executive & administrative functions. While this career opening has changed after the separation of judiciary from executive and devolution however, the DMG officers continue to occupy core administrative assignments in sub-divisions, districts or provincial governments. At the same time the DMG officers continue to have opportunities of serving in either of the three Government levels, their secretariats, in the field or in the semi-autonomous or autonomous bodies. It is this mobility (which continues through out the service progression), which facilities the growth and grooming of the DMG officers in myriad, multiple and crosscutting fields. This career path peculiar to the DMG officers eventually facilitates their entry into the top policy making officers of the country.

With the restructuring of the political & administrative authority after devolution the service structure of DMG was initially seen to be adversely impacted after the abolition of the all-powerful positions of the Assistant Commissioners, Deputy Commissioners and the Commissioners and the abolition of the executive magistracy's office. Conversely the post devolution scenario has shown that the role and the scope of the administrative cadres especially the DMG officers occupying leadership positions as District Coordinating Officers has increased manifolds.


It would not be out of place to mention that in the short moment of uncertainly at the dawn of devolution, the President of Pakistan himself assured the DMG officers about their rote in the affairs of the country saying that he expects the DMG officers to be the standard bearers of devolution. In his letter addressed to each DMG officer he categorically stated that he visualizes the future role of DMG in civil society as of a public service, motivated by the highest ideals of dedication, capability and responsiveness to public needs
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Old Monday, November 09, 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osama24 View Post
Before I waste my time in replying to this post and justify the obvious about who enjoys 'far more powers', let me ask you which group do you belong to? Have you even cleared the exam and what is the source of your information about the DMG ?
No, I'm not a CSP officer till now, I am going to appear for my 1st attempt in 2010. But one need not be a CSP officer, to know the basic information I have provided me in my post, besides I do have some friends and relatives who are DMG & PSP officers.
I would like if any of the members could "justify the obvious about who enjoys 'far more powers'"
The reasons due to which I am constrained to believe that PSP is a better choice than DMG is that though admittedly DMG officers do hold some key posts after getting into BS-20 or higher(only 20% of these senior officers get these 'key posts', while rest remain posted at 'khudde line' posts), but before that, it is not wise to compare the powers of DDOs, DOs, SO's. and Deputy Directors with ASPs. Restoration of executive magistracy is not in sight but PSP will remain the better choice even if the executive magistracy is revived, due to these reasons:

1- During devolution, though DCOs have figurehead nazims over them, they do not have much influence of MPAs and MNAs on them, at least directly. When the Nazims will be gone, the influence of MPAs and MNAs will increase in the day to day affairs of DCOs.
2- Currently, DCO signs the ACRs of all the EDOs, which gave him extra control over them, but after the restoration of divisional directors, Directors of the concerned department will sign the ACRs of the EDOs.
3- Now, All the funds of the district government are on the disposal of DCO, but once the LGO is abolished, these funds will go in the hands of provincial assemble, and funds will be allocated to the concerned departments at the provincial level. Hence this monetary control will be taken from DCOs.
4- The Police will not come under the sway of DMG until the Police Order 2002 is not amended.
5- Even if some still consider the posts of ACs and DCs better than ASPs and SPs, it is imperative to note that roughly only 50% of DMG officers are posted in field. The remaining 50% are posted in the secretariat, as Deputy Secretaries, Additional Secretaries, and other such posts. And the post of SP of any far flung area is far better than that of Deputy. Secretary, of most of the departments such as Social welfare, Special Education etc.
6- In PSP their is certainty of your power (at least to some extent): once you are SSP, you remain SSP, no matter where you are posted. While in DMG one day you are DG, Inter-Wall City Planning- a post of no significance at all, and the other day you are posted as Commissioner, Rawalpindi (As was the case of Dr. Hasib Ather, current Commissioner Pindi) or one day you are DCO, Lahore, and after remaining OSD for 9 long months you merely get the position of Secretary National Fertilizer Corporation. (As was the case of Mian Ijaz).
7- Lastly, their is a certain charm in wearing uniform, having gun men with you most of the time, receiving salutes of the juniors, and above all holding stick in one hand, and the gun in the other, which DMG certainly lacks, at least in the initial 15 years.

These are my observations, and everyone has the right to disagree with them. If you think their is any flaw in my observations then please point it out, i'll certainly appreciate that.
Disclaimer: I do not tend to disgrace the prestigious DMG, I personally believe that DMG is far better than any other group except PSP.
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  #6  
Old Monday, November 09, 2009
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Dear Anwartheravian

Salams, It is good to find a knowledgeable post here. I feel obliged to share my views on this topic. to begin with comparing various groups is not at all justified, since every group has its pros & cons

Quote:
In the nutshell DMG is a good group to join, but if you are a male candidate then i'll recommend to join PSP, as PSP has far more powers than DMG.
Dear let me clarify that induction in civil services of Pakistan should not be based on seeking power, as a public servant you would b a facilitator, administrator & co-ordinator, not a politician who requires power to harass hos foes... so seeking power should not be a concern for a new entrant in civil services

Quote:
The reasons due to which I am constrained to believe that PSP is a better choice than DMG is that though admittedly DMG officers do hold some key posts after getting into BS-20 or higher(only 20% of these senior officers get these 'key posts', while rest remain posted at 'khudde line' posts),
The argument that only 20% of DMG officer get good postings, where as the rest remain posted at "Khudda line" posts hold true for PSP officers as well. not every PSP Officers is posted as DPO, they also serve in "Khudda line " posts at HQs.. Believe me the offices of DIGs in CPO Karachi r not at all better than a Section Officer in Sindh Secretariat.

We must not forget that DMG Officers have largest share in BS-22, BS-21, BS-20, it means that career progression of DMG Officers has virtually no match: Pre-Common PSP officers r still wondering in BS-20/21, where as DMG officers of even 7th CTP hv bn promoted in BS-22-the highest order of civil bureaucracy.

PPO(IG in BS-22) is merely head of one department i.e. Police.. he is equivalent to a secretary in other provincial department who is in BS-20, he has to seek formal approval of Chief Secretary before proceeding on some leave, he serves under him. PPO also works under the establishment of Ministry of Interior, whose secretary is normally from DMG, so whatever rank a PSP officer has, he is subservient to DMG officer

The real service of police officer is only when he is posted as a DPO(operations). Not every PSP officer gets posting as DPO when their r rankers available who can easily toe the line of politician. there is again a fierce rivalary among PSP officers, basically over postings...

Where as DMG officer has unlimited opportunities, his scope of service is not restricted to revenue only... DMG officers r posted every where in Secretariat, District administration, projects, foreign missions, corporations, FIA etc. in police only DPO hs independent command, where as in DMG, an officers start commanding independently from BS-18.

a federal secretary has no parallel match in police deptt


Quote:
but before that, it is not wise to compare the powers of DDOs, DOs, SO's. and Deputy Directors with ASPs. Restoration of executive magistracy is not in sight but PSP will remain the better choice even if the executive magistracy is revived, due to these reasons:

1- During devolution, though DCOs have figurehead nazims over them, they do not have much influence of MPAs and MNAs on them, at least directly. When the Nazims will be gone, the influence of MPAs and MNAs will increase in the day to day affairs of DCOs.
political interfernce is prevalent in every group, so this is not a right yardstick for comparision of various groups..Such political pressure & influence is greater on PSP officers, DPO loses his posting if opponent of MNA/MPA is not arrested.

Quote:
2- Currently, DCO signs the ACRs of all the EDOs, which gave him extra control over them, but after the restoration of divisional directors, Directors of the concerned department will sign the ACRs of the EDOs.
This should not be a big concern for DMG officers.. signing ACRs hardly makes a differnce.. even if the ACR of some EDO is written by a director, but it has to be counter-signed by a Secretary(normally from DMG).. so they can't skip DMG officers

To be continued
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Old Monday, November 09, 2009
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I like the debate its really interesting but what i believe is that its your luck which decides about your power, money, ranks position. We have examples from history as people got much high authority who started from lowest rank. This is also a reality that here in our beloved Pakistan people uses css just to get power, fame, authority n also money. If the Csps were only serving Pakistan its administration must be very good now. They are always influenced by Politician, corruption, nepotism. Its not only the matter of serving but also gaining......
So we must try to serve more bcz we are the part of the system...
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Old Monday, November 09, 2009
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well I really appreciate the posts and vigorous deigning conversations going on here. And I do Agree to Amina's post about serving the nation rather than just enjoying the powerz
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Old Tuesday, November 10, 2009
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@F.S.: I totally agree with you brother.

Your thoughts about seeking opportunity to serve rather ability to rule are remarkable, but unfortunately most people don't think on the same lines, that's why in my post i just compared the powers of two groups. Besides, PSP does not offer any less opportunities to serve than any other group. And also, power provides ability to serve and rule at same time, it is on us, how we utilize it.

You are quite right in asserting that all PSP officers are not posted on lucrative posts, and there are "khudde line" posts in every department. But my argument was actually based on the fact that the sphere of PSP is far narrow than DMG group. PSP Officers have to be posted in Police, and all intelligence agencies, but DMG officers can be posted in every kind of department.That is why even a BS-21 officer of DMG is posted on the seats like DG, Standard Control Authority,and Chaiman Export Processing Zones and many such others.This diverse sphere of DMG gives them the benefit that the this group has maximum chances of promotions to BS-21 and BS-22. But my point is that what is the use of these higher grades if they do not guarantee 'authority posts'. I was trying to attach with my this post a list of DMG and PSP BS-20 Officers with their current appointments, but the file exceeds max size limit allowed. So i have uploaded it on other server, you can download it from there and see for your self that if in DMG officers the ratio of good posts/total posts is 20:50 that in PSP is 40:50.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TQ436ZJ7
The high ratio of good posts, gives officers a confidence that they can stand against political pressure, as they know if they are transferred, the probability of getting again good post in near or distant future are certainly there.


Now coming to your point that 'a federal secy has no match in PSP'. I partially agree with you. There are certain posts for which PSP provides no match. For instance Cheif Secy, Principal Secy of Governers, Principal Secy of PM, Secy S&GAD, Secy Finance, and 3-4 other posts. But what about the other departments like Secy youth and sports affair, Secy Population Welfare, Secy Housing, Labour Division & Public Health and many many others. Let me also make it clear, that these secretaries are not from DMG, but from secritariat group, where an officer of any group can go on deputation, but that is true that most of these secy do in fact belong to DMG. Besides, There are even such departments exist that made people wonder, why there is a need of any such department. A DPO, or DCO has more powers than a secy of such authority less department. Now when the total number of officers of DMG exceeds 600, but total available worthwhile posts are less than 150 and 'unmatchable to PSP' posts are 7-8, it becomes imperative for officers, if they want good posts, to seek political patronage. While in PSP the chances of reaching BS-21 and BS-22 are less, but within the lower grades i.e. BS-17(As ASP) -BS-20(As DIG), the chances of getting rewarding posts are more than any other group.

I also agree with you that a PSP officer e.g. DPO heads only 1 deptt in district while DCO heads 13 deptts, but out of these 13 only 4 are worth mentioning. these are: Revenue, Finance, Health and Education, all other departments are of no significance like forestry, social planning etc. But here, in my opinion, if we judge on the basis of quality rather than quantity of power, especially in a 'police state' which Pakistan unfortunately is, becoming DPO is better than becoming DCO.

Yes, it is true that for signing ACRs DOs and EDOs cannot skip DMG officers, but I gave that fact in the context that if Executive Magistracy is restored, DCO will not only gain other powers, it will also loose some, some critical ones.
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@anwartheravian...DMG is the colonial legacy ov ICS...whereas police is ov the imperial plice service...if you wish to get into criminals all the time...opt for police... but if you desire to witness the citadel ov an inimitable legacy ...DMG is the only optin then!i believe its all about one,s attitude and aptitude..we need not fight over these petty issues as at the end...its the nation which is to be served..and honor is wat is actually desired!...arguments are worthless in this context...you go the way thee want to...but please dnt say that this group which happens to be a JANASHEEN ov mughals,sher shah soori and english...ain't charming...as its not at all true!
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