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  #11  
Old Tuesday, August 09, 2011
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Talking Ha ha.....yaar i have worked in Punjab Civil Secretariate

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Originally Posted by DEVOLUTION GEEK View Post
@Ali Randhawa

As far as Mujahid Sherdil is concerned, he is not appointed as DCO on the basis of DMG. His late father, Mr.AZK Sherdil who happened to be a very honest person, is a reason behind his appointment. Don’t forget that Nasr-ullah Khan Laghari (PCS) is junior to Mujahid Sherdil in service but he is now the DCO of Vehari. If you talk about Ahad Cheema, then let me clear you one thing that I know him personally and he is a very intelligent and dedicated person. He is in grade 19 (moving to grade 20 soon) and perhaps senior to almost 10 to 11 PCS DCOs in service. So in short, these plum posts are not given on merit but on personal and political preferences and the intelligent DMG officers are the one who are in loss here.
There is no match between DMG and PCS officers as no less than 60% of PCS officers are the promote from Naib-Tehsilds and Stenographers. How can you compare a CSP officer with a Naib-Tehsildar?, it is simply obnoxious and a clear abuse of merit. Had these PCS been so efficient, they would have passed CSS in flying colours and joined DMG as most of these officers failed in CSS before joining PCS. I would like to quote here a very interesting example. One of my colleagues was a PMS Officer, serving as a section officer in Punjab Secretariat then, who was unable to pronounce “officer” correctly. He used to say, “afficer”. Now you understand the capabilities of these people. I am not here to demoralize anyone and perhaps if you ask me personally then I would favour PCS officers because I have many of them as my friends but still truth is truth. I don’t want to misguide anyone. Apart from this, I want to tell you a secret that almost 10 to 15 seats of PMS are always filled with the political candidates. Same is going to be happening now. I think I have answered many of your queries.
If you ask me personally, then I would say that government should abolish both the PMS & DMG groups by restoring the erstwhile Civil Service of Pakistan in which 80% seats were given to DMGs (Direct Recruitment) and 20% seats were given to the able provincial civil servants selected through public service commission after grade 19 to be inducted to grade 20 as CSPs. This system is still in force in many countries under the name of IAS, BCS, NCS etc.
AoA,
I was not expecting any different from you. Same rhetoric Omer Rasul used to utter about PCS cadre. You reminded me about my days when i worked in Punjab Civil Secretariat. I have meet Ahad cheema ( did not mention intentionally, but since you have mentioned him as a very intelligent officer, and i know what intelligence mean in bureaucracy). They are all same. Almost all misuse authority. Nevertheless, i am in no mood to start PCS vs DMG war, but i am disappointed that mighty DMG has not learnt any lesson.
Allah apko izaat karny aur karwany ki toufeeq day.

Allah Nighaban o Nasir
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  #12  
Old Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
I was not expecting any different from you. Same rhetoric Omer Rasul used to utter about PCS cadre. You reminded me about my days when i worked in Punjab Civil Secretariat. I have meet Ahad cheema ( did not mention intentionally, but since you have mentioned him as a very intelligent officer, and i know what intelligence mean in bureaucracy). They are all same. Almost all misuse authority. Nevertheless, i am in no mood to start PCS vs DMG war, but i am disappointed that mighty DMG has not learnt any lesson.*
Allah apko izaat karny aur karwany ki toufeeq day.
Dear! I am neither in favour of DMG nor I am here to debase PMS. All I wanted to say that in several districts of Punjab, junior PCS officers are appointed as DCOs, in violation of rules and regulations, directly from Assistant Commissioners (DDO (R)). Instead,*senior DMG and PCS officers should be appointed as DCOs. Also, DMG should be given an edge over PCS because they are selected, educated and trained in a more professional disposition. Corruption is there everywhere. You can't just tag DMGs as corrupt people. PCS officers working in the lower rung of Land Revenue department are perhaps churning more money than most of the officials of other departments. As far as Omer Cheema is concerned, I don't want to comment on his professional probity, but one thing is for sure that he was an active official not like the other sluggish DMGs and PCSs ones. People might say anything but I know that his running confrontation with Rai Nasir was the reason behind his removal as the latter one managed to transfer him because he cultivated close relationships with the corridors of power. As far as the attitude is concerned both PCS and DMG officers have the same snobbish attitude, so no difference unfortunately. The solution of this tussle lies only in abolishing PMS and DMG cadres and restoring the erstwhile CSP cadre of the pre-Bhutto era in which 80% to 85% were from the CSS while the 20% others were the efficient and capable provincial civil servants, adjusted into the CSP cadre after moving to grade 19.*
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  #13  
Old Wednesday, August 10, 2011
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Default Injustice to CSP/DMG officers in Punjab

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVOLUTION GEEK View Post
@Ali Randhawa

Yes! I know about seniority much more than most of the people around here in this forum because I am an ex-provincial public servant and I have worked with several DMG and PCS officers during my contractual tenure that ended in November 2010. Let me tell you one thing plainly, almost all the DCOs belonging to PCS are junior officers that are ruling over their senior counterparts and the DMG ones and unfortunately, all the DCOs are appointed on political considerations. No one is given exceptional promotions just on the basis of his being in DMG or PSP. My cousin, a grade 19 DMG officer, is still not any DCOship even when his junior PCS ones like the one posted as DCOs Vehari has far lesser service tenure.
As far as Mujahid Sherdil is concerned, he is not appointed as DCO on the basis of DMG. His late father, Mr.AZK Sherdil who happened to be a very honest person, is a reason behind his appointment. Don’t forget that Nasr-ullah Khan Laghari (PCS) is junior to Mujahid Sherdil in service but he is now the DCO of Vehari. If you talk about Ahad Cheema, then let me clear you one thing that I know him personally and he is a very intelligent and dedicated person. He is in grade 19 (moving to grade 20 soon) and perhaps senior to almost 10 to 11 PCS DCOs in service. So in short, these plum posts are not given on merit but on personal and political preferences and the intelligent DMG officers are the one who are in loss here.
There is no match between DMG and PCS officers as no less than 60% of PCS officers are the promote from Naib-Tehsilds and Stenographers. How can you compare a CSP officer with a Naib-Tehsildar?, it is simply obnoxious and a clear abuse of merit. Had these PCS been so efficient, they would have passed CSS in flying colours and joined DMG as most of these officers failed in CSS before joining PCS. I would like to quote here a very interesting example. One of my colleagues was a PMS Officer, serving as a section officer in Punjab Secretariat then, who was unable to pronounce “officer” correctly. He used to say, “afficer”. Now you understand the capabilities of these people. I am not here to demoralize anyone and perhaps if you ask me personally then I would favour PCS officers because I have many of them as my friends but still truth is truth. I don’t want to misguide anyone. Apart from this, I want to tell you a secret that almost 10 to 15 seats of PMS are always filled with the political candidates. Same is going to be happening now. I think I have answered many of your queries.
If you ask me personally, then I would say that government should abolish both the PMS & DMG groups by restoring the erstwhile Civil Service of Pakistan in which 80% seats were given to DMGs (Direct Recruitment) and 20% seats were given to the able provincial civil servants selected through public service commission after grade 19 to be inducted to grade 20 as CSPs. This system is still in force in many countries under the name of IAS, BCS, NCS etc.
AOA
Dear member you are wrong. Mr. Ahad Cheema, is in grade 18. he is very junior officer of DMG but working as DCO Lahore(Yes there is merit). This time his name is included in the course for promotion in 19 grade.This course will be started on 5th of September 2011.


Dear members please read this and then decide is there any Injustice to CSP/DMG officers in Punjab?
• PCS officers have been deprived of their right of time scale promotion. As per rules, they are promoted from BS-17 to BS-18 after 5-years of service and then next promotion in BPS-19 is after further 7-years (cumulative 12-years). But hundreds of PCS officers are yet waiting for their first promotion even after serving 17-long years in the same grade i.e. 17. Some of PCS Officers were promoted from BS-17 to BS-18 after 21 years of service. While there are many examples when DMG promoted its officers to BS-19 having less than 10 years of service while as per their own rules regarding promotion at least 12 years service is must for promotion from BS-17 to BS-19. So for their own benefit they have been
• There are 3 PCS officers among Provincial Secretaries (Total provincial secretaries = 42)
• Only One PCS officer is commissioner (total commissioners=9)
• Out of 36-DCO only 12 are PCS.
• DCO and Commissioner Lahore is “NO-GO AREA” for PCS Officers.
Reason for all this is unconstitutional posting of DMG/APUG officers in the provinces.


POSTING OF DMG/APUG OFFICERS IN PROVINCES IS VIOLATION OF CONSTITUTION OF PAKISTAN

Before going in detail about the constitutional position, it is appropriate to discuss how DMG/APUG are posted in the provinces.
There was section 263 of the India Act 1935 according to which they could be posted in the provinces after getting the consent of the province(s) through a formal agreement Although, this section 263 was abolished by virtue of section 10 of the Independence Act 1947, the CSP (DMG) were dominant in the Centre as well as in the provinces. So talking undue advantage of their position, the Governor General and 4-provinces entered into an agreement by virtue of which all 4-provinces surrendered certain number of seats in favour of the federation against which CSP could have been appointed. This agreement is called CSP (Composition & Cadre) Rules 1954. By virtue of these rules, Province of the Punjab surrendered 55 POSTS TO THE Federal Govt. out of these 55 posts 25% posts were again reserved for PCS and 17 seats belonged to the present judiciary like judges of the High Court, D&S judges etc. So, out of these 55 seats, net share of CSP (DMG) was 28 seats as discussed above.

Are these CSP (Composition & Cadre) Rules Valid and Legal?
The simple answer is “NO”. Detail is as under:-
1. As per the constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan the very posting of DMG/APUG officers in the provinces is ultra vires and against the constitution of Pakistan. Under section 263, India Act 1935 they could be posted in the provinces if any province and Federation enter into a n agreement to the effect. But this section 263 mentioned above ceased to exist w.e.f. 15th August 1947 by virtue of section 10 of the Independence Act 1947, the date on which the independence Act 1947 was enforced Section 10 the Independence Act is reproduced here:-
“10 Secretary of State’s services, etc:-
The provisions of this Act keeping in force provisions of the Government of India Act, 1935 shall not continue in force the provisions of that Act relating to appointments to the civil services of and civil posts under, the Crown in India by the Secretary of State on the provisions of that Act relating to the reservation of posts………
In the light of the above mentioned discussion, it is clear that these rules of 1954 were made ultra vires as section 263 did not exist at that time……..rather it ceased to exist the morning when Pakistan came into being i.e. 14th of August 1947.
It is very important to note that this was very much in the knowledge of the architects of CSP 1954 rules, therefore, although they reproduced the language of section 265 of India Act 1935 but did not mention that these rules were being framed under section 263.

2. OPINION OF LAW DEPARTMENT & PUNJAB ASSEMBLY
There is another interpretation of the constitution made by the Law Department of the Govt. of the Punjab which it gave to the Provincial assembly of the Punjab in 1986. Actually in February 1986 a number of honorable MPAs tabled the questions in the Punjab assembly regarding the miseries of PCS officers. Consequently, the then CM Punjab constituted a high powered committee of the Punjab Assembly (under Rule 160 of the Rules of Procedure of the Provincial Assembly of the Punjab 1973, vide No.PAP/Legis-I(19)/85/6 dated 21-04-1986) comprising of 11-MPAs. It is pertinent to mention that present Foreign Minister Hon. Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi was the member of the above mentioned committee. This committee listened to all stake holders including PCS Executive, PCS Secretariat DMG, Law Department of Punjab Govt. and others and finally published a report in the form of a 149-pages book which was approved by the Punjab Assembly by a unanimous resolution (copy enclosed). In this report, the committee unanimously agreed (page 81-86, Chapter IX of the book) that:-
“Validity of CSP Composition and Cardre Rules 1954:
The result of the above discussions is that the posts surrendered by the Punjab Government under the CSP (Composition and Cadre) Rules 1954 stand restored to Punjab…”
It means that 55 seats (net share of CSP was 28 seats) which were given to Federal Govt by the Punjab under an agreement came back to Punjab so, after the promulgation of 1956 constitution very posting of DMGs in Punjab is against the constitution of Pakistan.

DMG FURTHER VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION
From the above discussion it is clear that:
a. either the very posting w.e.f. 15 August 1947 is ICS/CSP/Federal officers in the provinces is ultra vires or
b. The day when 1956 constitution was promulgated, the CSP rules 1954 came to an end.
But instead of complying with the constitution:-

1. The mighty DMG on 21-08-1973 (just after 7-days of promulgation of 1973 Constitution) increased their seats in all provinces through a notification. For example, in Punjab, they raised their seats from 55 (their net share was 28 seats as discussed above as per 1954 rules) to 115 and also abolished the 25% quota of PCS into that.
2. They keep on trying to further increase their seats in the provinces by no Govt. agreed to Finally they found the right time and right man (who knew nothing about services in Pakistan) to get their job done----it was the INTERIM GOVT. of Mr. Moeen Qureshi.

ILLEGAL IPCC (“MOEN QURESHI”) FORMULA---1993

A meeting was arranged by the DMGs under the care-taker Prime Minister, Mr. Moeen Qureshi, on 19th September 1993 in Islamabad which was attended by caretaker Governors, caretaker Chief Ministers and Chief Secretaries (who all were DGM) of the four provinces. The Minutes of the said Meeting were issued by the Joint Secretary to the Cabinet vide No. 47/CS/93 dated 22nd September 1993 (Copy enclosed). The meeting approved the following percentage share of APUG in the

revised cadre schedule of APUG posts in the provinces:
Province BPS-17 BPS-18 BPS-19 BPS-20 BPS-21
Punjab 25% 40 % 50% 60% 65%
Sindh 25% 40 % 50% 60% 65%
NWFP 25% 40 % 50% 60% 65%
Balochistan 25% 40 % 50% 60% 65%

• The most important question about this so-called sharing formula is THAT INTERIM GOVT. DOES NOT HAVE A MANDATE TO DECIDE SUCH CRUCIAL ISSUED AT ALL ,interim govt is to carry day to day business and to conduct the election and NOTHING ELSE.
• The above table clearly reflects that as DMG/APUG Officers got a lions share of all important posts of the provinces and marginalized the PCS officers in their provinces what a justice that all 22 grades seats for DMG (not even a single for PCS) and just for 35% seats in grade 21 to all Provincial Civil Services……
• The Mala fide is further clear that the said arrangement was made in a surreptitious manner that for last many years said Minutes of Meeting could not known to PCS as they were marked “Secret/Confidential”.
• Deliberately and with Mala fide intention, no PCS Officers of any province was consulted nor invited to attend the meeting. Probably this was the only “Sharing” formula where the other party (PCS) was kept in absolute dark.
• In this way, the DMG acted as judge, jury and executioner themselves.

WHERE IS PROVINCIAL AUTONOMY?
• The very posting of DMG/APUG officers in the provinces is totally against the provincial autonomy as enshrined in the constitution of Pakistan (for example article 141 & 142 © of the constitution) as well qualified officers of the province (PCS) ARE THERE AND THERE IS NO NEED OF DMG IN THE PROVINCE. By getting posting in the province, they are usurping the rights of the provincial officers as they get their promotions against the seats or provincial civil service officers. Basically, ICS was devised and evolved by East India Company / British to establish and consolidate their colonial rule in the sub-continent in 1853. This service was, initially manned exclusively by Europeans. Gradually, the demand for induction of locals (Indians) into that was getting stronger and stronger and consequently, PCS service was created in 1887 by the Aitcheson Commission.
• If they can manage the affairs of the Federal Govt. for which they appeared from Federal Public Service Commission. It would be a great service to the nation. After 64 years of independence they are not otherwise required by the provinces at all at the cost of PCS Officers.
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  #14  
Old Thursday, August 11, 2011
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[QUOTE=DEVOLUTION GEEK;338448]
Quote:

DMG should be given an edge over PCS because they are selected, educated and trained in a more professional disposition.*
AoA,
Typical mind set, same old rhetoric , PCS officers are dumb, they lack professional training, they are corrupt, and list goes on.

I can name (but will not as its not a proper forum ) DMG officers of various CTPs, who misused authority. I can even give documentary proof that CSP and DMG association is utilizing public funds for maintaining its office at Punjab Civil Officers Mess, GOR, Lahore. Have you ever visited that place? You will be surprised to see the facilities, these mighty DMG officers are enjoying at the expense of public funds.
I have even seen documents, of welfare wing of S & GAD Punjab, every officer above BS- 19 is using at least 2 1300cc cars ( fuel and driver are provided by Punjab Govt, actually fuel limit is 150 liters / month but if you are DMG officer, you can even get 300 lt/month).
Ab aur kiya kiya batoun? Batain toun bohat hain, magar its small hain kay batatay huay acha nahi lagta. PTCL Bill + Broadband bill of several DMG officers, not all, but those who are close aides of current office bearers are paid by S & GAD. These mighty DMG officers black mail lower staff, and us arm twisting techniques to persuade accounts departments of their respective department to arrange funds. Such spending is seldom discussed in public accounts committees.
Ajj kay liyay itna kafi hai? Also i am posting this message through my android phone. I hope, once you will be inducted in DMG, you will shun these sins.
Allah Nighaban o Nasir
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  #15  
Old Monday, August 15, 2011
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@mohammadmohsinali

Ahad Cheema is in grade 19. :
Meriticracy should prevail so CSP/DMG should be given precedence.

@Ali Randhava


Quote:
AoA,
Typical mind set, same old rhetoric , PCS officers are dumb, they lack professional training, they are corrupt, and list goes on.

I can name (but will not as its not a proper forum ) DMG officers of various CTPs, who misused authority. I can even give documentary proof that CSP and DMG association is utilizing public funds for maintaining its office at Punjab Civil Officers Mess, GOR, Lahore. Have you ever visited that place? You will be surprised to see the facilities, these mighty DMG officers are enjoying at the expense of public funds.
I have even seen documents, of welfare wing of S & GAD Punjab, every officer above BS- 19 is using at least 2 1300cc cars ( fuel and driver are provided by Punjab Govt, actually fuel limit is 150 liters / month but if you are DMG officer, you can even get 300 lt/month).
Ab aur kiya kiya batoun? Batain toun bohat hain, magar its small hain kay batatay huay acha nahi lagta. PTCL Bill + Broadband bill of several DMG officers, not all, but those who are close aides of current office bearers are paid by S & GAD. These mighty DMG officers black mail lower staff, and us arm twisting techniques to persuade accounts departments of their respective department to arrange funds. Such spending is seldom discussed in public accounts committees.
Ajj kay liyay itna kafi hai? Also i am posting this message through my android phone. I hope, once you will be inducted in DMG, you will shun these sins.
Allah Nighaban o Nasir
You always harp on the same old rhetoric of Rai Nasir. Corruption exists in each and every sphere of government department. Yes! There are several black sheep in DMG but on the other hand, you can't tag all the PMS officers as angels. I have seen each and everything with my own eyes so you need not to tell me what happens in government departments. Ask any third person and he will tell you that the PMS officers are far more corrupt than DMG ones. I can name you several great and indisputably honest personalities of erstwhile CSP and the DMG. But perhaps, there is no one, simply no one in PMS/PCS who has earned the mark of probity in the current situation. Also, as far as the rule of meritocracy is concerned, PMS lags behind not only DMG but also almost all the twelve groups of CSS.
Dear! I have the documentary proof that several junior PMS officers in Grade 17 and 18, posted in districts, are enjoying far better perks and privileges than the senior DMGs. I can also name you several grade 17 and 18 PMS officers who are enjoying no less than three 1600 CC and 1300 CC cars at their disposal.
I am using iPhone not android.
I hope, once you will be inducted in PMS, you will shun these sins.
Allah Nighaban o Nasir
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  #16  
Old Monday, August 15, 2011
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@Devolution Geek....Your research and the 'no-nonsese' attitude is commendable.I agree to whatever you have to say.DMGians should fight for their right,as they have earned it simply by coming through a much gruelling process than PCS officers.In my humble observation,I have,atleast 80% of the times seen those people inducted in PCS who have failed to get allocated in any of the 12 Occupational groups of the Civil Services.Let alone comparing it with the DMG.
By teaching a lesson to DMG,we are only going to destroy a service that stands for the federation,and lose the best brain that has been inducted through such a time consuming and arduous process.When you have the best and the fittest available for a job,why fit in the 'second best'.Regarding other technical issues,I think brother Devoultion Geek has explained better.
This violation of merit at the hands of high ups is why Pakistan finds itself in such a position today.I mean making someone who has risen from a clerical position to a DCO when you have the best and deserving man for the job is plainly...what should I say..Be blessed everyone.This discussion is never ending.If the same people had come through CSS and DMG,they wouldn't be so vehemently advocating PCS.
Thanx anyways devolution geek.You are one of the few who can see and speak sense.Bravo.And I totally agree to your suggestion of bringing back the CSP cadre,alongwith this name.It suites
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Old Monday, August 15, 2011
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@DEVOLUTION GEEK

AOA
Dear member you are wrong. Mr. Ahad Cheema, is in grade 18. he is very junior officer of DMG but working as DCO Lahore(Yes there is merit). This time his name is included in the course for promotion in 19 grade.This course will be started on 5th of September 2011.


Please read the news paper The jang, 7-august page no 21
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Old Thursday, August 18, 2011
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@mohammadmohsinali


I am using iPhone not android.
AoA,
I did not say what your were using? I said i am post my last message through my android phone, and typing is hell on phone. Espacially when one has to type a long message. Nevertheless, let us end this discussion. Let best officers serve the country, whether they are from mightly DMG officers ( progeny of Pharaoh of Egypt) or humble, down to earth, poor PMS folks.
Personally, bro, i have no intention to join PMS or DMG. I am happy with my current occupation.

Allah Nighaban o Nasir
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Old Thursday, October 20, 2011
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Originally Posted by Saleeqa Batool View Post
@Devolution Greek

Can you name the districts headed by PCS officers?

@Huzaifa

Totally agreed to yoo. PCS officers can never do injustice to DMGs rather reverse is the case.DMG officers deliberately stops promotions of PCS officers.There are many instances where a Senior PCS Officer who wrote ACR of a DMG was latter working under the same DMG officer after few years.

Some of learned members have maligned PCS officers by calling them incompetent , and low caliber. Its unjust and unfair. I am neither a PCS officer nor DMG.But i share few facts that are based on reality.

1-I know as many as two PMS Officers who qualified CSS in 2009 but did nt join

1-Mr Husnain Khalid Merit No 204 allocated in IG(Currently posted as SJM Lahore)
2- Mr Zaigham Nawaz Merit No 79 Allocated in IRS (currently posted as DMO Faislaabad)

One thing more , many of qualified CSPs of CE2008 flunked in PMS Examination.

The revised syllabus and exam stanadard of PMS is no less tough than CSS if not more.Besides, the pass percentage in PMS exam is much low.

I dont say that PMS is superior to DMG but PCS officers must be treated at par with them.On one hand a DMG is promoted in 18 even before 5 years on acting charge basis whereas a PCS officers has to wait for 12-16 years for one step promotion.If DMGs have better exposure and training opportunities , its none of the fault of PMS officers. Many PMS officers have to wait for promotions because of non-completion of Courses conducted by National School of Management (foremerly NIPA). Like wise, many promotions cases of PMS officers are held in abeyance for years on account of delays in ACR.These ACR are kept pending by DMGs who countersign these ACR.

Its gross injustice by the satte to PMS officers and should be stopped sooner than latter.
Please read this link before even thinking of comparing PMS/PCS with DMG...moreover the examples you have quoted are the officers who were allocated to IRS and IG, please mention any example where a PMS officer was allocated to DMG and he did not join?
http://www.cssforum.com.pk/css-cadre...tml#post365531
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Old Thursday, October 20, 2011
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@DEVOLUTION GEEK

AOA
Dear member you are wrong. Mr. Ahad Cheema, is in grade 18. he is very junior officer of DMG but working as DCO Lahore(Yes there is merit). This time his name is included in the course for promotion in 19 grade.This course will be started on 5th of September 2011.


Please read the news paper The jang, 7-august page no 21
Yes! Ahad Cheema is from 28th CTP, and he is one year late in joining MCMC course, since 29th CTP of DMG & even PSP have already completed their MCMC (for BPS-19) Moreover let me explain here that the nomination for courses is made purely on seniority basis, last year he was not relieved by the punjab Govt to join the course, so he would be joining this year.
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