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Old Monday, January 12, 2015
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Exclamation Serving PSP Officers/Civil Servants Please Reply

Hi,

I wanted to enquire about one of the features of the training of PSP officers selected through CSS. Can an officer, during or after his specialized training (or during military attachment) opt to go for specialized courses especially commando course/training (E.g. SSG) inside or outside the country?

Thanks in advance.

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Old Tuesday, January 13, 2015
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Let's say that is a very funny question (because mods always have a problem if I use the word stupid). Anyway it's like asking I want to go to Peshawar from Lahore, how can I reach there while traveling towards Karachi.

In STP for PSP,they teach Law and Law and then afterward some more Law. There is a one month physical training of PSPs conducted by army, but that is just one month. You can not expect to be a commando after that. Like that's even less than the duration Hollywood stars train before an average action movie.

If you want SSG go for army, if you want to be in operations try joining ATF which is called for when operations are to be conducted by police. Joining PSP for SSG training would be misled, to the least.

Army do not train civilians in SSG training facility, courses are being conducted by army for civil law enforcement agencies but they are for members of different forces who work at operations level not the PSPs and those courses can not be compared to SSG training in any sense.

Even if hypothetically you get SSG training while being in police still you are not to be called for sensitive operations. How may members of police force took part in Peshawar attack aftermath operation. They were allowed to enter the premises only after army was done processing the scene and collecting evidence i.e. the next day.

Forget the Peshwara attack as it was in cantonment, when ever there is a sensitive operation army takes over and they do not involve civilian forces. Like the Khi airport attack- at most police get a gate keeper role. Even after the attack on police training facility in Lahore many many years ago, army cleared the area not police.

It is not that police do not ever conduct raids but the nature is different. SSG is trained for highly sensitive operations that usually involve hostage situations. But when they are called they are the boss, they take the charge.

ATF is a positive step in this direction and let's hope the capacity of civil law enforcement will considerably improve in future but still ATF is not PSP, they work at operational level and their training is still no where near to SSG.

As for now police is trained for what they did in blue area stand off- the infamous Sikandar saga, you stand there and watch unless until the worst possible scenario unfolds.
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Old Tuesday, January 13, 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Let's say that is a very funny question (because mods always have a problem if I use the word stupid). Anyway it's like asking I want to go to Peshawar from Lahore, how can I reach there while traveling towards Karachi.

In STP for PSP,they teach Law and Law and then afterward some more Law. There is a one month physical training of PSPs conducted by army, but that is just one month. You can not expect to be a commando after that. Like that's even less than the duration Hollywood stars train before an average action movie.

If you want SSG go for army, if you want to be in operations try joining ATF which is called for when operations are to be conducted by police. Joining PSP for SSG training would be misled, to the least.

Army do not train civilians in SSG training facility, courses are being conducted by army for civil law enforcement agencies but they are for members of different forces who work at operations level not the PSPs and those courses can not be compared to SSG training in any sense.

Even if hypothetically you get SSG training while being in police still you are not to be called for sensitive operations. How may members of police force took part in Peshawar attack aftermath operation. They were allowed to enter the premises only after army was done processing the scene and collecting evidence i.e. the next day.

Forget the Peshwara attack as it was in cantonment, when ever there is a sensitive operation army takes over and they do not involve civilian forces. Like the Khi airport attack- at most police get a gate keeper role. Even after the attack on police training facility in Lahore many many years ago, army cleared the area not police.

It is not that police do not ever conduct raids but the nature is different. SSG is trained for highly sensitive operations that usually involve hostage situations. But when they are called they are the boss, they take the charge.

ATF is a positive step in this direction and let's hope the capacity of civil law enforcement will considerably improve in future but still ATF is not PSP, they work at operational level and their training is still no where near to SSG.

As for now police is trained for what they did in blue area stand off- the infamous Sikandar saga, you stand there and watch unless until the worst possible scenario unfolds.

Thanks a lot for the prompt reply.

I can only hope that in the long run police training attains the mark that it is supposed to achieve. No wonder it is true that without proper weapons and combat training (especially for the low level prominent positions like ASI, SI, SHO etc.), police force is no different than other civilian bodies.
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Old Tuesday, January 13, 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadBlock View Post
Thanks a lot for the prompt reply.

I can only hope that in the long run police training attains the mark that it is supposed to achieve. No wonder it is true that without proper weapons and combat training (especially for the low level prominent positions like ASI, SI, SHO etc.), police force is no different than other civilian bodies.
haha. Don't worry. In real life there are no such heroes that are praised for their extra ordinary valour.Because you can't jump from a wall which is more then 7-8 meters, and even if you jumped, you will be a martyr for nothing.

If the purpose is to banish the crime from the streets, you can develop good plans to fight it.

If you remember that "Dabang Khan" of Islamabad police, how he was beaten by the protesters and finally when he saw that his extra-valour is boring no fruits, he lost hopes and became lenient instead.
And finally the same man for showing extra-patriotism was suspended on special orders of Mr P.M for showing leniency.

This is how things work in Pakistan. If you are impressed by some Aamir Khan movie or any drama seriel like that of Mr Aashir Azeem, then it's fallacious
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haha. Don't worry. In real life there are no such heroes that are praised for their extra ordinary valour.Because you can't jump from a wall which is more then 7-8 meters, and even if you jumped, you will be a martyr for nothing.

If the purpose is to banish the crime from the streets, you can develop good plans to fight it.

If you remember that "Dabang Khan" of Islamabad police, how he was beaten by the protesters and finally when he saw that his extra-valour is boring no fruits, he lost hopes and became lenient instead.
And finally the same man for showing extra-patriotism was suspended on special orders of Mr P.M for showing leniency.

This is how things work in Pakistan. If you are impressed by some Aamir Khan movie or any drama seriel like that of Mr Aashir Azeem, then it's fallacious

Lol. Thanks mate. Yeah that is absolutely right that things are a little different in Pakistan as in the recent past every department with some sort of administrative rights (and bureaucracy at large) is progressively getting influenced by the political inputs.
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Old Tuesday, January 13, 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAO RAMEEZ View Post
haha. Don't worry. In real life there are no such heroes that are praised for their extra ordinary valour.Because you can't jump from a wall which is more then 7-8 meters, and even if you jumped, you will be a martyr for nothing.

If the purpose is to banish the crime from the streets, you can develop good plans to fight it.

If you remember that "Dabang Khan" of Islamabad police, how he was beaten by the protesters and finally when he saw that his extra-valour is boring no fruits, he lost hopes and became lenient instead.
And finally the same man for showing extra-patriotism was suspended on special orders of Mr P.M for showing leniency.

This is how things work in Pakistan. If you are impressed by some Aamir Khan movie or any drama seriel like that of Mr Aashir Azeem, then it's fallacious
You are missing the point here. Valor is not something you show to be praised. It is a personal characteristic that comes natural to few. Others can think the few were just faking it for a while. Pakistani police has had its share of heroes like Safwat Ghayur. So he is a martyr and many of his peers are still serving but he will be known forever yet they are no ones.

Same is the case of Khi police chief Sahid Hayat, the operation was a success yet it was called off because of political interference but it doesn't belittle who he is or how he performed. He was given an administrative post but whenever he is back to field he will deliver again, unlike many who are there in field doing nothing more than retaining their jobs.

This is about who you are, this is about what you stand for. If you do the right thing you won't need anyone's approval. And all the glorification of the world can not satisfy a heart that knows for itself that the glory wasn't earned. That's why they say approval comes from within.

Reality is one thing but demoralizing juniors is another. Nothing good can happen this way, I differ! PSP is one of the most influential roles in Pakistan. You can do wonders and there are those who have done that. Or you can do nothing and say a capable police officer is a fiction or a myth.

And the case of SSP operations being beaten by protesters wasn't that simple as you made it look here. That is another story altogether.
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Old Friday, January 16, 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
You are missing the point here. Valor is not something you show to be praised. It is a personal characteristic that comes natural to few. Others can think the few were just faking it for a while. Pakistani police has had its share of heroes like Safwat Ghayur. So he is a martyr and many of his peers are still serving but he will be known forever yet they are no ones.

Same is the case of Khi police chief Sahid Hayat, the operation was a success yet it was called off because of political interference but it doesn't belittle who he is or how he performed. He was given an administrative post but whenever he is back to field he will deliver again, unlike many who are there in field doing nothing more than retaining their jobs.

This is about who you are, this is about what you stand for. If you do the right thing you won't need anyone's approval. And all the glorification of the world can not satisfy a heart that knows for itself that the glory wasn't earned. That's why they say approval comes from within.

Reality is one thing but demoralizing juniors is another. Nothing good can happen this way, I differ! PSP is one of the most influential roles in Pakistan. You can do wonders and there are those who have done that. Or you can do nothing and say a capable police officer is a fiction or a myth.

And the case of SSP operations being beaten by protesters wasn't that simple as you made it look here. That is another story altogether.
No No You didn't understood, my point aptly. Or may be I've failed to make one.

Who is Safwat Ghaur or Shahid Hayat? I don't know. You have given two examples and there is a list and not only PSPs there are dozens of heroes in our society.
And who praises these heroes. They lie rotten in their homes. But who cares.
You must know one thing that at this place if you live an honest life just, it's the valour enough.
In an environment with internal politics and all that 60-70 percent of one's career get's wasted in curbing these foul situations. Those who have done job at any prestigious position will agree me as I have experienced myself as well.
And the result is when you go some thana they say "This is not our area".
When you go the next one "they say it is not our area and the previous one was"...
And the SSP situation is quite analogous. Why not? When a person with his chest forcibly out like some Salman Khan and jumps blindly into the mob like Sanjay Dutt. Other SSPs who just taken the 1 month leave or denied the vested duty are sleeping comfortably in their cosy homes. And that men even after remaining 1 week in hospital, now is a humiliated figure of the society.
Those who have envisaged something like this must remember that in this society, earning "Halal" and to be honest policy, is the toughest part, not killing some "culprit". When you have authority and weapon,killing some culprit is not difficult but to avoid any "innocent" from being killed is tough.

Rest of your debate was not wrong. Valour is a personal trait and so do the efficiency.
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Old Saturday, January 17, 2015
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If you do not know who Safwat Ghaur is, then you shouldn't be talking about PSP heroes- just a thought.

Again I think that is difference of perspective, if someone sees living comfy in home as an achievement then the person is definitely not forces material. Then why join police, live comfy, be a shop keeper a businessman, anything else but not a member of law enforcement.

IG Isb asking for leave when the situation escalated is an embarrassment for the whole department. First thing is you decide, the decision might be right or wrong but that comes afterward. A person who would chicken out when faced with difficult choices, what is he doing in PSP? I think whoever was chairman FPSC when he was allocated, has some serious explanation to do here. Like he does not have any decision making power and he is in police!

And your remarks on SSP operations are childish. He was not being any Sanjay Dutt or Salman Khan. He had force of 18,000 under his command at that time, had he wanted to attack, there were times in dhanrna when his force out numbered the protesters! He didn't attack anyone but was attacked and the incident was well planned and pre-plotted. The attackers were arrested and it was no random mob attack but something bigger and uglier. Ask anyone serving in capital police.

And for God's sake he is no humiliated figure, he is a hero. I happened to go to PIMS when he was hospitalized, people of the city were paying rich tribute to him. He is the person known by everyone by name whereas know one knows the rest. Half of my friends still have crush on him and you say he is a humiliated figure. Come on!


We can continue this discussion but you would have to some up with some solid arguments not mere Bollywood references to make your case.
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Old Saturday, January 17, 2015
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And for God's sake he is no humiliated figure, he is a hero. I happened to go to PIMS when he was hospitalized, people of the city were paying rich tribute to him. He is the person known by everyone by name whereas know one knows the rest. Half of my friends still have crush on him and you say he is a humiliated figure. Come on!
We can continue this discussion but you would have to some up with some solid arguments not mere Bollywood references to make your case.
On one side you are telling me about my references and on the other hand this crush thing... I can't cure the optical illusions and ailments in women cause I am a vet
I can refer your friends a good optician.

I think you haven't listened he is suspended on special orders of P.M sb for showing leniency to the culprits and now hiding from media. Well, If you still want to carry out the ad nauseum then do carry..

http://tribune.com.pk/story/815815/s...king-aswj-man/

I don't see some point of respect in it, honestly.
He was unable to control the mob as well and now have a label of suspended police officer which will surely haunt him throughout his life. What he has left in his personality vault? I don't see some good trait in it that you come with your ribs out and very next day you are found in some hospital and very next month out of the uniform.(Seems like psychological disorder).

I don't know what type of "Rich Tribute" you are telling here. If you have seen some flowers around him, then the graves have flowers as well.

If you still want to say me "Shut up, he is a hero". Then I will accept it as it is.

Well...I did n't meant that someone should not be like him...But he must keep in mind the repercussions as well. Simply what I wanted to say.
Real life scenarios has certain limitations as my friend asked about SSG etc I tried to address if (may be) he had idealized something in his life...Everybody do this including me. But this ground reality thing haunts you throughout your life.
If you still want to be brave. Then carry on, but for some pious purpose, believing that you will be rewarded in the life hereafter not to be the centre of media,society,"in group" or to bring crushes on you.

Other SSPs had known this fact that they will be unable to control the mob, so they retreated. It's not called some cowardice, it's called "rational decision". They will give you the charge. If you tried to control, somebody will die, if you didn't you will be cursed.

You can't blame FPSC etc. He was rightly placed in traffic police. Don't you think,inexperience brought him to this point?
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Old Saturday, January 17, 2015
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Controlling mob is a simple science not something impossible. Even we study it in Psychology course under group dynamics. Police in Islamabad never had orders to contain the mob. It can be done at specific points and under some conditions that of course you have not heard and I do not have time or energy to type and related them to constitutional avenue saga.

Consider me out of this discussion now.
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