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  #11  
Old Friday, September 11, 2015
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Ok lets see how much change has occured so far under one person one vote system? Decades has passed and there are few priviliged groups taking their turn in power. Why? Because these privileged groups know that they will remain in power so long the people are ignorant and uneducated. Because they know they can make these ignorant fool very easily. Thats the reason feudals fear the day the son of peasant go for high education.

If this system will continue, it is in their benefit and so, according to your own statement which is very true, nobody wants to share power and so are they.



But this system can be changed when only educated people will be given power to decide. Its not easy to make him fool easily. An educated person can do critical analysis and know that much is being taken and less is being given. So he will make rational decision, atleast much better than ignorant one. That day, the status quo will change and this is the reason the privilege class will not let it happen.. This will collapse them, they know!

In democratic theory, privileged class is not suppose to occupy the power but in practise they are clinging to power and this is probably because democracy is still evolving.What you wish to do is to create a privilege class in theory so that there is no chance of uprooting privilege class in practise. This is quite strange since you haven't gone through Plato Republic and it's criticism so i can expect that from you. I would request you to go through that before further comments.

By the way, Bureaucrats belong to educated class and they are intelligent as well so they question is; are they making rational decisions for the greater good of people? According to your theory, they are not supposed to be corrupt since they are educated and rational!
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  #12  
Old Friday, September 11, 2015
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When power and authority is vested into privilege class then they will ensure that they remain Privileged forever so they won't let underprivileged enter into mainstream no matter how hard they try. After all ,Privileged will have all authority and power. Who want to give away his authority and power?

You give 20% of the population certain privilege and after 10 years you ask them to include 10% more, will they? Why would they? Who will force them to do so? The underprivileged? How will they force after all they are under Privileged and have no rights.
I don't agree with your logic. Once there is a sincere and competent government on board, it will undertake measures to spread education like wild fire everywhere in the country for the betterment of the people. A new generation of educated people will come up every year and the cycle of prosperity would continue. They'll join the national economy naturally and gradually after educating themselves like they do now. Entrepreneurship will abound thereby providing jobs to all kinds of people which will give them the sense to educate their children as well. Charagh se chargh jalta jai ga. As it is education is free uptil FSc in government schools. Things can only get better because its a constitutional requirement as well.

Also, going by your logic, jahil people in our government will never let educated & sensible people get into the government. They are the privileged class and trying to spread more jahalat so that they always remain in power. How can that be preferable to educated and sensible people trying to spread education and rationality into the society so that jahils never come back to power?
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  #13  
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I don't agree with your logic. Once there is a sincere and competent government on board, it will undertake measures to spread education like wild fire everywhere in the country for the betterment of the people. A new generation of educated people will come up every year and the cycle of prosperity would continue. They'll join the national economy naturally and gradually after educating themselves like they do now. Entrepreneurship will abound thereby providing jobs to all kinds of people which will give them the sense to educate their children as well. Charagh se chargh jalta jai ga. As it is education is free uptil FSc in government schools. Things can only get better because its a constitutional requirement as well.



Also, going by your logic, jahil people in our government will never let educated & sensible people get into the government. They are the privileged class and trying to spread more jahalat so that they always remain in power. How can that be preferable to educated and sensible people trying to spread education and rationality into the society so that jahils never come back to power?

Question mark is on the formation of "Competent and sincere government"
According to you ,only Educated people can form competent and Sincere government. If this is true then Bureaucrats(who are educated) would've taken us to some prosperous planet. What makes you think so that an illiterate person cant be sincere?
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Question mark is on the formation of "Competent and sincere government"
According to you ,only Educated people can form competent and Sincere government. If this is true then Bureaucrats(who are educated) would've taken us to some prosperous planet. What makes you think so that an illiterate person cant be sincere?
Sincerity and competence are two different things. Don't confuse them. There is a higher probability that educated people form better and stable governments for prosperity of the country. How I got to this conclusion? Look around the world.

I'm afraid Bureaucrats have to answer to jahils upstairs so they usually end up compromising themselves to earn a respectable living. If they didn't have to answer to jahils we wouldn't be in this ditch right now.

Also, jahils don't do civil service reforms because they want to keep their hold on the civil servants and make them their personal servants. Jahils ka khatma ho ga upstairs only then prosperity is possible.
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  #15  
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Sincerity and competence are two different things. Don't confuse them. There is a higher probability that educated people form better and stable governments for betterment of the country. How I got to this conclusion? Look around the world.



I'm afraid Bureaucrats have to answer to jahils upstairs so they usually end up compromising themselves to earn a respectable living. If they didn't have to answer to jahils we wouldn't be in this ditch right now.



Also, jahils don't do civil service reforms because they want to keep their hold on the civil servants and make them their personal servants. Jahil ka khatma ho ga only then prosperity is possible.

No body in the world could prove that Knowledge and morality are directly proportional to each other. Being knowledgeable doesn't entail the high probability of doing greatest good for masses.

Moreover Person charged with reforming civil service MR Ahsan Iqbal isn't jahil and so or many other politicians. All politicians are not Jahil many among them are educated but it doesn't mean that all educated politicians are not corrupt. Is this so?

I am amazed that you are still contending your false premise which is linking knowledge to morality. Was shaukat Aziz Jahil? He was highly educated and was corrupt to his core.
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  #16  
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No body in the world could prove that Knowledge and morality are directly proportional to each other. Being knowledgeable doesn't entail the high probability of doing greatest good for masses.

Moreover Person charged with reforming civil service MR Ahsan Iqbal isn't jahil and so or many other politicians. All politicians are not Jahil many among them are educated but it doesn't mean that all educated politicians are not corrupt. Is this so?

I am amazed that you are still contending your false premise which is linking knowledge to morality. Was shaukat Aziz Jahil? He was highly educated and was corrupt to his core.
You're talking about puppets of jahils. All answer to one. Biggest one answers to the jahil masses. Even if he is educated he is forced to answers to jahil masses. So the same cycle continues. So again we come to the basic point, the need of the hour is to de link jahal masses from the selection of the government otherwise we'll keep wallowing in this misery.

Anyway, I'm astounded that you cannot wrap your head around simple logic. If a person is financially and morally clean, is educated and knowledgeable & appeals to the educated people from the masses, as he would due to these qualities, then there are much higher chances that he is going to be good for the country as compared to a person who is jahil and corrupt but jahils still vote for him due to their small world view of galli muhalla & baradari based on their jahalat. If you can't understand this then you're a lost cause I'm afraid.
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  #17  
Old Friday, September 11, 2015
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You're talking about puppets of jahils. All answer to one. Biggest one answers to the jahil masses. Even if he is educated he is forced to answers to jahil masses. So the same cycle continues. So again we come to the basic point, the need of the hour is to de link jahal masses from the selection of the government otherwise we'll keep wallowing in this misery.
Alright! Your new premise is" An educated person cant deliver when he is answerable to jahil masses" let's refute it swiftly. Shaukat Aziz wasn't answerable to jahil Masses he was answerable to an educated dictator! Likewise , worldwide, the educated dictators have not been answerable to jahil Masses but did they all worked for greatest good of the people?

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Anyway, I'm astounded that you cannot wrap your head around simple logic. If a person is financially and morally clean, is educated and knowledgeable & appeals to the educated people from the masses, as he would due to these qualities, then there are much higher chances that he is going to be good for the country :
Lol, first you were contending on the basis of knowledge now you have added "morally and financially clean".... Good going

Still i would like to ask that an illiterate person cant be morally and financially clean ? and knowledgeable person is bound to be morally and financially clean? Clearly, it can happen and no one cant rule out the possibility of an evil genius. I rest my case!
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  #18  
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Alright! Your new premise is" An educated person cant deliver when he is answerable to jahil masses" let's refute it swiftly. Shaukat Aziz wasn't answerable to jahil Masses he was answerable to an educated dictator! Likewise , worldwide, the educated dictators have not been answerable to jahil Masses but did they all worked for greatest good of the people?



Lol, first you were contending on the basis of knowledge now you have added "morally and financially clean".... Good going

Still i would like to ask that an illiterate person cant be morally and financially clean ? and knowledgeable person is bound to be morally and financially clean? Clearly, it can happen and no one cant rule out the possibility of an evil genius. I rest my case!
Dude smell some coffee and wake the hell up. I have maintained from the start that educated people will select capable and educated leaders who will work for the betterment of Pakistan instead of filling their own pockets. That is the only way the country can progress. You can try to make it look like I'm coming up with something new but you'll keep failing at it miserably like you have just now.

I'd also like to say that Musharraf was dependent on jahils biradari walai politicians of PMLQ and terrorist like MQM. Jihalat of the masses is THE root cause of leaders like Nawaz, BB, Bhutto, Sheikh Mujib etc. They get caught up in narai and bhangrai and vote for leaders who create these slogans to bamboozle them so that they can loot money and cling to power. My argument from the start has been that educated people have broader vision and understanding of these matters than jahil awam and so they will not be undone by these tactics.

I understand that you feel like you have to win somewhere but its just sad seeing you so desperate trying to settle old scores. But as I've said before somewhere, hopefully one day you'll wake up from your deep slumber of ignorance.
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Old Saturday, September 12, 2015
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Omg, i think i started a fire! .. Anyhow, i think monk and i are in the same page. The problem is xing lee oversimplies things or over compkicates them .

First things first. I really liked how you made a point by quoting the articles. The problem is you did not quotes them in the paper or did you? The examiner is not going to buy your opinion just because you said so. This is why i highlighted why i dont agree with you.

Second, trust me except for general life, quote religion only where it is needed. Pakistan affairs may have been won in islamic ideology and all that jazz. But the trust remains we are not really an islamic country and our political sysrem is not based on islamic principles

Third, even if we buy yout argument of making voting a privileage. Do u really think only an educated person has the ability to have a balanced mind. To think things through? To be the most moral in his social circle? Besides, let's suppose in the future some one proposed your solution of making it a privileage. It will be only possible when the state fulfills its responsibilty of providing education to its people. Only then can we use the privileage of voting as a motivation for people to not waste their opportunity of education. But in our country, where the govt doesnt care to provide quality education (or education at all) to its people, how can it keep the condition of education for voting?. Moreover, if we consider a perfect world where almost every citizen is educated in out country, then how come voting can be counted as a privileage. It will be considered a norm. A basic right everyone has. So its not the voting that should be made a privileage but the education that should be made the norm. And this is what every country aspires for anyway. what you propose is discrimination.

Btw, please ignore all the grammatical and spelling mistakes. Its hard to type on the phone that thinks its smarter than you.
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  #20  
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Omg, i think i started a fire! .. Anyhow, i think monk and i are in the same page. The problem is xing lee oversimplies things or over compkicates them .

First things first. I really liked how you made a point by quoting the articles. The problem is you did not quotes them in the paper or did you? The examiner is not going to buy your opinion just because you said so. This is why i highlighted why i dont agree with you.

Second, trust me except for general life, quote religion only where it is needed. Pakistan affairs may have been won in islamic ideology and all that jazz. But the trust remains we are not really an islamic country and our political sysrem is not based on islamic principles
Bro, I don't know what the examiner is going to do but I made pretty much the same arguments in the paper as well.

I disagree with your opinion on quoting the Quran. Quran and hadiths are quoted even in Supreme Court's decisions as well. Last night I was reading the detailed verdict of Supreme Court's decision on implementing Urdu as a the official language and the Chief Justice narrated an incident from the life of Hazrat Faird Ganj Shakr as an example to make a point. Have a look yourself: http://www.supremecourt.gov.pk/web/u..._dt_3-9-15.pdf

Just because it becomes impossible to come up with with an argument against the Quran doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Winning doesn't matter, the truth does.

Secondly, from the years of experience that I have with online debates, I know you cannot convince anyone to change his/her opinion if he is not willing to. Its very rare that something like that happens. Especially if that certain someone has old scores to settle with you. The best you can do is to lay out your arguments and leave it to the people reading the debate to decide for themselves. And this is what my aim is here and I think I've made my self quite clear.

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Third, even if we buy yout argument of making voting a privileage. Do u really think only an educated person has the ability to have a balanced mind. To think things through? To be the most moral in his social circle?
How can you possibly deny the merits of education? How can one even begin a conversation like this? Is it not true that education broadens one's vision? Is it not true that education makes you learn how to think critically? Is it not true that its makes you question everything? Is it not true that it makes you curious to find the truth? Is it not true it makes your mind much more cultured? Is it not true that an educated person is much more likely to be balanced and rational in his approach than an uneducated person? Is all of this not true? If you think the answer to any of the above is "no", then I'm sorry I can't help you. But if you think the answer to all the above is yes, then why shouldn't opinion of these people carry more weight than the opinion of others?

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Besides, let's suppose in the future some one proposed your solution of making it a privileage. It will be only possible when the state fulfills its responsibilty of providing education to its people. Only then can we use the privileage of voting as a motivation for people to not waste their opportunity of education. But in our country, where the govt doesnt care to provide quality education (or education at all) to its people, how can it keep the condition of education for voting?.
Your argument makes no sense at all. If education is set as the condition for voting like I proposed, then these kind of governments will no longer get elected. They only get elected because jahils vote for them because they get bamboozled by their narai and bhangrai again and again. That's the whole point!

The end goal is the prosperity of the country. I don't care how we get there. I only have the end goal in my mind. If only 50% of the people are capable of understanding this and voting for its implementation without getting bogged down by senseless slogans of jahil politicians then only these people are the ones whose vote should matter more. End of story. The rest can continue the nara and bhangra party. A good government once selected will endeavor to provide education to all of the people no doubt. Every year more and more people will join the caravan due to this. I don't see any contradiction or problem in this.


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Moreover, if we consider a perfect world where almost every citizen is educated in out country, then how come voting can be counted as a privileage. It will be considered a norm. A basic right everyone has. So its not the voting that should be made a privileage but the education that should be made the norm. And this is what every country aspires for anyway. what you propose is discrimination.
You didn't read my post at all did you? If you call this discrimination then call the nature out for discrimination as well. Why the income disparity between highly educated and others? Why the disparity in respectability for highly educated people and others? Call FPSC out for discrimination for having a bachelors requirement for CSS. Call colleges out for discrimination for having metric requirement for admission. Call all the jobs in the world out for discrimination because they require a certain degree for appointment.

The entire argument is that in this society education will not be the norm because the government doesn't give a damn about it! In fact, its against it! You said it yourself. Government needs jahils in high numbers so that they can be easily fleeced for votes again and again! This cycle can only be broken if the opinions of jahils currently in the society starts carrying lesser weight than the opinion of the educated masses. This is the entire crux of my argument! Otherwise we'll never get out of a situation like today where hoards and hoards of jahil people who don't understand anything vote for their brethren only on the basis of biradari, stupidity and narai. Our history proves this.

If in the distant future a situation arises where everyone is educated at some level, even then if this law of nature is tinkered with it will create bad results and injustice in the society. If you remove the competitive nature of any society and everyone gets to lifts the trophy then why should anyone care to do better? If everyone wins the world cup then whats there to strive for?
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