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  #11  
Old Monday, October 24, 2005
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Assalam Alaikum

Mr. Memon, from Architectural point of view, there are methods available that a building or a infrastructure can be made earthquake resistant.

To make it simple, when the earthquake comes, it causes the foundation of the structure to move, as a result its walls and roof and other parts are effected. But in a structure that is builts to withstand earthquake, they have a flexiblilty to roll or move at the foundation level, therefore that above ground structure has flexiblity to move as well. When the earth shakes, they move with it, to come to its original position after the movement. Therefore, the damage in the aftermath is minimal.

But, as in the housing in the Azad Kashmir, I believe the construction is solely done with concrete, which is very rigid, and act as house of cards in any earthquake scenario. Poor construction qualitiy is also a result.



Same High tech method of constructions applies to damn constructions. Hope u find it useful. Japan is a perfect example of earthquake resistant construction, be it small scale or large scale projects.

Thanks.

Last edited by Aarwaa; Tuesday, August 12, 2008 at 08:25 PM.
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  #12  
Old Monday, October 24, 2005
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Salaam,

Thank you so much Mr. Ding Dong for sharing your technical knowledge with us. I wonder if had gone stupid while writing my comments. After-all how could a project of millions of dollars be implemented without taking precautions?

Regards,
Adil Memon
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  #13  
Old Tuesday, October 25, 2005
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AoA

dear Adil you have tried to sort the matter out, language was not as such bad, which is comendable. keep it up

hmmmm, me too endeavour to defend the issue, nonetheless i would b putting my comments inshallah in a day or two as much bzy in official business nd some other assignments
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  #14  
Old Wednesday, October 26, 2005
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m really impressed by the hard work done by Mr.Adil & Ms.Awan on the too controvercial issue of Kalabagh Dam...They have really tried thair best to look at it thoroughly..But a piece of advice if u allow me..Never go in the depths of a controvercial issue like this.Just try to omit it.From practical point of view,u just dont need Kalabagh dam issue to master over..i mean what in essence is the importance of KB dam?For example ,if the subject comes as essay,just omit it if u think u can't balance it.Moreover there is a long list of essays to attempt,why go for KB dam with unknown consequences,given the gravity of issue.And if it strikes u in the Current r Pak Affairs,then this information posted by u is far more enough to attempt a 20 marks question.
Anyways,i just spoke my mind...
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  #15  
Old Wednesday, October 26, 2005
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Salaam,

Sir, I am really glad that you read our discussion with interest. Thank you so much for that. Actually I just posted an essay on that subject for open discussion. I did not want to go into the technical details. But when I found one of the respectable members (Mr. Awan) raising some technical objections to my points, I was naturally bound to defend myself. I don't surrender, however it's ok if i'm defeated after a fierce fight.

However, I totally agree with your assertions that it's useless. But infact now I feel competent enough to talk about that subject. It gives me confidence, which I generally lack!

I will follow your suggestions in future!

Regards,
Adil Memon

Thanks again!
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  #16  
Old Sunday, October 30, 2005
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AoA

I pray for well being of all and sundry

Agreeing to the point of Shahid Sb that we must try to avoid controversial issues, however, this is with regard to knowledge, which donít have any boundaries nd since it is a national issue so we must have know how of the matter

Dear Adil you have done good job, indeed you did not use offensive language at any point, may Allah bless you


I tried to make its organized form, whereby

(i) means point at my previous posting

(i)
<< means point of Adil Memon

(i)
---- means my new points

------------------------------------------------
A

(i)
1. Para 8(A): Kalabagh is a place in Punjab. On average (1975-2000) the annual inflow of Indus River and its western tributaries is 144.91 MAF (Indus, Kabul, Gomal, Soan etc.), whereas the inflow of Eastern Rivers (Jehlum, Chenab, Ravi, Sutlej, etc.) is 9.136 MAF. The outflow to sea, on average (1975-2000) is 39.5 MAF (37.01 in Kharif and 2.49 in Rabi) and water diverted to canals is 104.73 MAF (67.11 in Kharif and 37.63 in Rabi).

(ii)
<< Thank you so much dear. I figured out later that I placed Kalabagh at the wrong province in my essay. I wrote 'in' where I was supposed to write 'near'.

>> Agreed! However the share in Water Accords is 117MAF.

(iii)
---
Dear the water diverted to canals is 104.73 MAF, however, according to 1991 Accord the share of provinces totals to 114.35 MAF this includes water diverted to canals and water required to other uses.
--------------------------------------------------------
B

(i)
2. As per Water Apportionment Accord of 1991, the following share has been allocated to the provinces:

Province Kharif Rabi Total
Punjab 37.07 18.87 55.94
Sindh 33.94 14.82 48.76
NWFP 5.28 3.5 8.78
Balochistan: 2.85 1.02 3.87

Total 77.34 37.01 114.35

(ii)
>> Ok... now this is much clear. You see, you missed something here. In your first paragraph you stated that 104.73 MAF is being diverted to use all over the country while the needs/rights are equal to 114.35 MAF. Now tell me where does the rest of 10 MAF come from to balance the demand and supply? Please take pain to answer.

(iii)
---
As stated in A (iii) above, the water diverted to canals is 104 MAF, while the overall rights equal to 114.35 MAF

(iv)
>> Besides that, let me inform you that in Water Accord 1991, Para-2, the water allocated to the four provinces is 117.35 MAF. And why our shares/rights have been curtailed you'll know as you keep reading.

(v)
---
Dear the water allocated vide 1991 Accord is 114 MAF nd 3 MAF is the water share for Civil Canals above rim stations
----------------------------------------------------------
C

(i)
3. On average about 39.0 MAF is being wasted to the sea and as per claim of Sindh (during Accord of 1991) the optimum level required to check sea intrusion is 10 MAF, it means about 29 MAF can be utilized by the country.

(ii)
>>This is the most controversial part I would like to further discuss. Brother, I guess you know that it's just an official claim that 35MAF (I didn't see the figure 39MAF anywhere) is available for use. Itís only a miscalculated figure, not a measured one.

Thirty-five MAF is a huge quantity of water. It is eight MAF more than the Indus River's annual average flow at Skardu and about one-third of all the water in the irrigation system. How could it escape the eye especially when the provinces are fighting for every drop of water?

If it were true, the delta would not have been ruined and the people in Thatta, Badin and Hyderabad districts would not have faced socio-economic and health problems, including skin and eye diseases, infections, anemia, abdomen problems, diarrhea and some other unheard of ailments, which doctors associate with the non-availability of water. Women and children wouldn't be facing malnutrition and a high mortality rate either.

Also, the coastal area may not have been destroyed and none of the fishermen would have been displaced. The sea incursion may not have occurred and the advancing seawaters would not have inundated more than a million acres. If the claim were true, the mangrove forests, the marine and wildlife and the fresh-water fish would not have been affected. The ecosystem would still be intact. People would have been getting fresh drinking water and they would not have died or been taken ill by drinking polluted and poisonous water.

(You can pickup the Metropolitan of Dawn, Karachi Edition for clarification)

The technical people who have calculated that figure included the super floods that are unpredictable and can occur any time between every 5 - 25 years. This is the reason they have achieved such a high figure. So let me make it clear that even if we build Kalabagh, it will be empty for 4 out of 5 years (on the condition that super floods flow the 5th year, else you can understand). Simply speaking, it will be empty for 80 out of 100 years. The point I wanted to prove here is that we don't have enough water to store. Read next.

(iii)
----
Dear 35 MAF is not the quantity of the water flowing at a specific point of time to get notice of people. This water discharge is for the whole year specifically during the Kharif months, when downpour and ice melting contributes high flow in the rivers.

As stated at C (i) above about 39 MAF goes to sea, out of which 36.94 MAF or 93.8% goes in Kharif. In the rabi season, on average about 2.44 MAF flows to sea.

As per the calculated figures of Sindh, the minimum escapage to check sea intrusion was 10 MAF. It was decided in 1991 Accord that further studies would be undertaken to establish the minimal escapage needs.

As per studies, the ground water in lower part of lower Indus Basin is salty and it is not from previous ten or twenty years but it was there in British era as well. This is an important reason for salinity and sodicity.

The water availability is indeed unreliable. The highest annual water availability in the recorded history (from 1922 todate) was 187 MAF (million acre feet) in the year 1959-60 as against the minimum of 96 MAF in the year 2001-2002, which averages to 141 MAF, however, from 1975 to date the water discharge on average is 145 MAF, please note that this do not include the highest available water in recorded history, but includes the lowest annual water availability.

The live storage capacity of the dam is 6.1 MAF at retention point i.e. 915 feet MSL (mean sea level) and gross storage equals to 7.9 MAF, this will only be made in high water available months i.e Kharif, whereas after discharge of water for Rabi crops the water storage would be equal to 4-5 MAF at retention level 825 feet MSL (mean sea level). The Dead storage for tough years would be appx. 2 MAF.

As such the Dam wonít remain empty.

--------------------------------------------
D

(i)
4. Average annual energy generation would be 11400 GWH with 12 installed generators of 300 MWH each.

(ii)
>> Agreed to this point. However let me state that currently we are not deficient of energy. The Prime Minister himself announced a few months back that we have 2000MW of extra power presently. We are not in any emergency need of energy!

>> The cost of that energy won't be cheap because the project is damn exorbitant.

(iii)
----
Dear we get extra electricity generation only for small period of time i.e. in high water available months, whereas in remaining months we are in short of electricity thatís why we face load shedding. As per studies, the cost of one unit of hydel power is 8-10 times less than cost of other power generating resources like gas or coal. Further, we are boosting industrial sector, which indeed require cheap source of energy and that is only hydel power.

----------------------------------------------------
E

(i)
5 Concerns of NWFP (Para 9(A) refers)

Flooding/Inundation of fertile lands

This apprehension got footing because of record flood of 1929, however, the conservation level of dam is 915 feet above mean sea level (MSL) and real causes of flooding at Nowshera and Peshawar Valley is entrance of Kabul river into confined channel at the end of valley; as Indus flows through a wide valley of over 8000 feet and is then forced to pass through 1000 feet gorge for 5 miles, this forces the river water to back up thus raising flood levels in Kabul river up to Nowshera. This is not likely to occur in case of Kalabagh because:

(ii)
>> There are several instances where dams have cracked and wreaked havoc on the surrounding areas. The case can apply here.
(As I suggested in my essay, safeguards should be guaranteed for this part).

The dam will cause backwater flow and flooding in the Kabul River in the Peshawar valley from Indus water due to heading up at the narrow Attock gorge.
(This is what I learnt while my study. I can't technically prove it. I am not an engineer)

Try to envisage an earthquake at the site of the dam when it is storing water. What do you contemplate after that?

Dams should be far away from habitable lands. I personally suggest that they should be built in the mountains.

(iii)
----

For sure, if someone is going to construct a huge dam that certainly precautionary measures would be there.

You learning is right, the 1929 flood was because of the same reason, but now the situation is not likely to happen as Ghazi Brother project changes the flow direction of water and major portion of river Indus now moves through the Ghazi Brotha Canal and seldom moves through the Attock gorge

(iv)

a) The back water effect of Kalabagh Lake would end about 8-10 miles (appx. 16 km) downstream of confluence of Kabul and Indus rivers


>> How?

(v)
---

Because the maximum retention point of dam is 915 feet which comes at appx. 16 km downstream of confluence of Kabul and Indus

(vi)
b) The Tarbela dam has stopped the free flow of Indus River and condition like of 1929 cannot occur

>> Tarbela dam is getting silted heavily. Its capacity is quite short to withstand super floods like that of 1929.


(vii)
-----
As stated at E (iii) above


(viii)
ii). The lowest ground levels at Swabi, Mardan, and Pabbi are 1000, 970, and 962 feet respectively, as compared to the maximum conservation level of dam i.e. 915, this maximum reservoir level would be maintained only for 3 to 4 weeks during September and October after which it would deplete as water would be released for electricity generation and for Rabi crops. Ultimately it would go down to dead storage level of 825 feet by early June. This operation pattern of reservoir could not block the drainage in the Peshawar valley thus water-logging or salinity cannot be caused. Further, the drains of Mardan SCARP (Salinity control and reclamation project) are higher than 915 feet of maximum reservoir level so they can operate easily.

(ix)
>> According to my statistics, the highest conservation level of the dam is 24 feet above the ground level of Nowshera. Through my source, I came to learn that the dam will be 260 meters high. Now I need to know about the ground level of the site where the dam is being constructed to visualize/contemplate the scenario.

I will need to study this point a little deeper. I will clear it afterwards!


(x)
-----
The maximum height of dam where the water could be retained is proposed to be 915 feet MSL (mean sea level) whereas the lowest point of Nowshera is at an elevation of 938 feet and of the Mardan SCARP is 958 feet. So the lowest point of Nowshera is 23 feet above to maximum retention point of dam.

-------------------------------------------
F

(i)
iii) Based on a 1999 estimate, the total population to be relocated because of the project is 120,000. Of this, 78,000 persons will have to be relocated from the Punjab and 42,500 from NWFP. The project includes compensation for all affected people for their properties which include land, trees, buildings and other structures at market price in compliance with the Land Acquisition Act. 27 new model villages and 20 village extensions have been proposed.

7. Another major incentive provided for the affectees in the case of this dam, not previously offered for such a project in Pakistan, would be to fully compensate the farmers for the land on the reservoir periphery, above normal conservation level of 915 feet that could be flooded once in five years. This land would remain the property of the original owners for cultivation, with the undertaking that they would not claim any damages to crops for occasional flooding.

8. According to the plan, non-agriculturist people would be trained in various trades in the Training Institutes to be established in the Model Villages. These measures will provide them maximum job opportunities.

(ii)
>> Who trusts this? NWFP doesn't. She has an account of Tarbela people that serves as a historical evidence of hollowness of such commitments. Central government is a renegade.

(I suggested in my essay earlier that the Central Govt. should try o earn the confidence of the affected parties)

Besides that, population is increasing rapidly. We are running out of habitable places and due to the recent boom in land prices the resettlement plan is economically unfeasible. The powers-that-be are bragging with the habitable land prices of 1980s and they can't even imagine that the cost of rehabilitation will be more than 200% of what they surmise.

(iii)
-----
Dear the majority of part where the dam is proposed comprise of barren hilly or sub-hilly tracts and these areas are sparsely populated so perhaps nothing to be worried. The overalls cost involved in rehabilitation of people had been mentioned in the feasibility, and it would definitely be revised when the dam is to be finalized as such the people would get the land price of that day.

(iv)
9. The area to be affected by the reservoir is about 134,500 acres. This includes 74% un-cultivable land in both the provinces. Of this, 95,800 acres falls in the Punjab and remaining 38,700 acres in the NWFP.

(v)
>> I read the opposite about this part. According to my source, major proportion of the site consists of fertile land and is a perfect habitable land. Do you have some idea where will such a large people be located and settled?


(vi)
----

As stated at F (iii) above, the cultivation done in the area is rain fed/arid or barani and the area in Punjab is Potowar plateau, whereas in NWFP the area is sub hilly or uneven.

However, some implications/apprehensions, are that if the height of dam is increased it may like to cause some problems to salt mines located nearby in the Kalabagh range or to some oil and gas projects like Khore in Attock.
-----------------------------------
G
(i)
10. Concerns of Balochistan (Para 9(A) refers): The primary concern of Balochistan is regarding share of water and Pat Feeder Canal originated from Gaddu Barage after construction of the dam, however, according to Water Accord of 1991 the water share of any province cannot be curtailed and new canal projects of any province would be entertained from overall share of the respective province. Since flow of Pat Feeder canal is related to water level in the Barage, therefore, its remodeling has been devised, so in fact the remodeling of Pat Feeder will increase its efficiency.

(ii)
>> The remodeling is sure to cause diversion; else, the Baloch people wouldn't have raised any objections for a national project. I lack any technical specification here.

They have passed 2 or 3 resolutions against the Dam in their assembly!

(iii)
-----

Dear as stated at G (i) above the main concerns of Balochistan are regarding Pat Feeder Canal and of proportion of water share and it is not likely to happen
----------------------
H

(i)
11. Concerns of Sindh (Para 9 (A) refers):
i) The project would convert Sindh into a desert.
ii) There is no surplus water to fill Kalabagh reservoir.
iii) Cultivation in riverain (Sailaba) areas would be affected.
iv) Sea water intrusion in Indus
v) Mangrove forests, which are already threatened, would be further affected adversely.
vi) Fish production and drinking water supply below Kotri would be adversely affected.

12. Answers

i). Dams donít consume any water. Instead these store water during flood season, which can be utilized during remaining dry periods. Before Tarbela the annual canal withdrawal of Sindh were 35.6. MAF, however, after Tarbala Dam figure rose to 44.5 MAF, and major benefit being got in Rabi season.

(ii)
>> Who said dams consume water? But those, who have the taps in their controls, do. Yes I am speaking about Punjab. The problem here is that Sindh doesn't trust Punjab. Itís all logical and based on past experiences. I will present some instances of Punjab's treacherous conduct below. My dear brother you're surely misguided about the water share of Sindh increasing after construction of Tarbela Dam. The total storage capacity of Tarbela is something like 9 MAF and the increase in Sindh's share according to your statements is 9MAF. I wonder if the powers-that-be have become so generous to flow all the water from the dam to Sindh.

And yes, as I said, we don't have surplus water to store. So Kalabagh dam will only store the water share of Sindh. And then Sindh will be at the mercy of Punjab. As I write further, you'll understand my points.

(iii)
--------------
Hmmm brother the problem of distribution of water, perhaps first time rose in 1945, any how, the maximum storage level of Tarbela at one time is 9 MAF it does not mean that whole year the dam stores 9 MAF, and the share increased for the Sindh is 9 MAF for the whole year, nd specifically during the odd months i.e. Rabi season the Sindh got more water. As such the share of water increased.

As stated at C (iii) above, we have some additional water in Kharif season so we can store that water, but it wont be from the share of Sindh or Balochistan or from any other province, however, it will provide water to all the provinces, as stated previously there are projects like Kachi canal, Rainee Canal, Indus right bank canal etc. and we would need additional water for them. As regards Greater Thal Canal, this project is on air since 1980s thatís why it was agreed during 1991 Accord that provinces can launch projects utilizing water from their own sources

During the year 1999-2000, the total irrigated area, using all sources available in the Punjab, was of the order of 13.8 million hectares. This included 11 million hectares in the canal commands. The private tubewells and wells irrigated 6.8 million acres during the same period.

During the year 1999-2000, the total irrigated area, using all sources in Sindh, was of the order of 3.52 million hectares. This included 2.39 million hectares of irrigated land in the canal commands. The private tubewells and wells irrigated 0.13million hectares during the same period.

However, during the kharif periods from 1990-2000, Punjab used 34.3 MAF annually, while Sindh and Balochistan used 31.4 MAF and NWFP used 2.35 MAF. Look in Punjab about 11 million hectares was irrigated from 34 MAF and in Sindh about 2.39 million hectares was irrigated from appx 29 MAF. Hmmmmm

(iv)
ii). As stated at Para-2 above, about 39 MAF is being wasted in the sea and as opined by Sindh during 1991 Accord that approx. 10 MAF is required to stop sea intrusion, so remaining water is 29 MAF. Further, I had seen in an article by some Sindhi person, that according to IUCN the water level required to evade sea intrusion is 27 MAF, if consider this ration than we also have 12 MAF water to feed the Kalabagh dam.

(v)
>> There is no surplus water. However, let me agree for a while that there is. Well be informed that the 1991 Accords were never in the favour of Sindh (Punjab even tried to inactivate it and replace it with their Ministerial Accord 1994, but failed). 10MAF is indeed insufficient to stop the intrusion. Regarding that Sindhi person, I wonder if he was a Pakistani who doesn't want the development of his country. He emphasized on preservation of nature, which should be our top most priority. The Sindhi person quoted the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN). I am quite confused to figure out that who is more competent enough to decide good or bad, our throne-thirsty government or that world class International Union. Dear, if we stop the flow of fresh water in to the sea, the damages will be more horrendous. We are trying to mess up with a natural cycle. The consequences will be; extensive salinity of water; and degradation of land, mangroves and fisheries. Already, millions of acres of fertile land have been rendered barren due to this intrusion. I don't know why we want more cultivation at the cost of degradation of land in Sindh. The so-called well-wishers don't know that due to the sea-intrusion the country is suffering severe economic damage. Amazingly it is claimed that the dam will contribute to the growth of the country. I laugh at those people.

(vi)
-----
Dear me too agreed IUCN data as mentioned at H (iv) above, but if the 27 MAF is required indeed at that case we do have 12 MAF (average) easily and for Kalabagh we need maximum of 6 MAF.

Let me tell you another thing, in Rabi we only have 4-6 MAF going to sea, nd for sustained movement of fresh water we also need a reservoir from where fresh water could be sent to sea for good environment.

(vii)
>> We are trying to create wheat at the cost of water, notwithstanding, that we can live weeks without food but not more than a day or two without water. Wheat can be imported, but water canít be.

(viii)
----
Dear that water would also be conserved it wont be wasted.


(ix)
iii). The Salaiba are the areas around the river bed and are fed by moisture in the soil during flood season. However, many farmers are already using water pumps/tube wells for cultivating these areas. The extra water in shape of small flooding will be there, which can easily feed the Sailaba areas.

(x)
>> More than 40% (official claim) of Sindh's water is saline. I donít know whether the water in those areas is capable of cultivating lands. However, I think inundation lands can be cultivated through floods only (not sure). Well, small floods will be stored in the dams on the way before reaching the lands that can cultivate those lands. And we can't wait for super floods every 5th year or more, to come and quench the thirst of those lands.

(xi)
------
Yes the Sindhs underground water is saline, but if the water table increases salts start accumulating on the surface, whereas if we flush out water through tube wells the salts cant come up through water table evaporation and salinity or sodicity cannot arise

(xii)
v). Mangrove forests cover an important area in the Indus Delta spreading from Karachi in the west to Rann of Kutch in the east and majority of its consist of a salt tolerant variety. The reduction in mangroves is due to many reasons like frequency of tidal inundation and uncontrolled overgrazing and cutting due to extreme population pressure of Karachi. For reviving the mangrove forests, persistent effort is required for replanting salt tolerant varieties in the area.

(xiii)
>> I don't know if they are really salt tolerant. The rest of your ideas about the reduction in mangrove forests are agreed on. They are totally true. And I am personally ignorant about their irrigation method. I don't know if they can be only supplied water through the Indus Delta or the sea water can work. As soon I'm competent enough in this concerned area, I will discuss more about it. However salt tolerant varieties exist and you are right to say that they should be planted.

(xiv)
------

At present only one species is in Indus Delta and that is salt tolerant.

(xv)
vi) The statistical data shows that the production of fish has been constantly increasing, as such no problem. Further, fresh water supply in winter will assure good quality of water in the rivers and more fish.

(xvi)
>> Ha-ha... Show me that statistical data. Fresh water in winter, how do you assure that the water will flow down in winter? You missed to talk about the quality of fish.
I can present my own experience here. The quality of Fish in Sanghar is excellent since it receives fresh water. However, the fish of Hyderabad is pathetic in quality and itís all because it doesnít receive fresh water.

You forgot that we're suffering several embargoes for Fish export due to the filthy quality.

(xvii)
-----
me not wel versant with this issue. However according to Economic Survey of Pakistan 2004-05 the fish production was 573,600 M tons in 2004-05 whereas it was 566,200 M tons during 2003-04

---------------------------------------------------------------
H

(i)
13. The Kalabagh Dam project has converted into a favourite punching bag of many politicians who use this as their weapon against maligning the government. The Benazir was initially against the project but after assuming power, she favoured the cause. The same is the case with ANP etc. they favoured the project when in power in alliance with PML (N) and now they are again opposing the project.

(ii)
>> What do you actually mean by maligning the Government? We had several regimes in between the proposal of the dam and today. I wonder if this was always used as a weapon of so-called maligning EVERY government. And astonishing is the fact that itís the only project used as cherry-blossom, why not the other dams. NWFP, Balochistan and Sindh are not opposed to the construction of dams. Go build Skardu, Bhasha and Katzara, there is no problem. Katzara is the best choice. I will explain in the end, how !

I am least concerned about those politicians. Are they trustworthy/sincere enough to be quoted?

By the way, opposition is backed up by technical experts like Idrees Rajput (Sindh), Fatehullah Khan (NWFP) etc. And these people have nothing to do with politics.

Kalabagh dam is a lollypop to Punjab by Musharraf. Itís a gesture of gratitude, because he was given a positive vote from the Punjab Assembly to retain his uniform as long as he wanted and unfortunately Sindh didn't please him at that stance.

(iii)
-----------
Hmmmm dear if the Kalabagh dam is a lollypop by Musharaf, than why the project remained in proposals since 1953, perhaps at that Musharaf would be doing something in his school.

As regards Kalabagh, numerous studies have been carried out both by foreign and Pakistani consultants like Chas T. Main, Hazra, Pieter Lieftnick (WB), Montreal Engg. Company (MECO), A.C.E, Wapda etc.

And as per Iqtidar H. Siddiqui, who was associated with water resources in Pakistan from 167 upto 1988, there was no proposal about Katzarah even on lips at that period

-------------------------------------------------------------------
J

(i)
14. The Government has proposed many mega projects in all the provinces like Right Bank Canal for Gomal region, Rainee and Kachi Canal for Sindh and Balochistan and the Greater Thal Canal in Punjab, which is not a new project in a sense that it was also on board during Water Accord of 1991. Certainly surplus water would be required to feed these channels.

(ii)
>> He he... the favourite point. Here I can present one of the instances of Punjab's treacherous attitude. Yes, you're thinking right, itís the Chenab-Jehlum Canal. Previously while its construction was on the way, Sindh was assured that water will be drawn into that canal only when there will be surplus. However today we see them diverting water even at the times of drought. Isn't this injustice? Now they are building (maybe have built ) The Greater Thal canal. Sindh has the same reservations again. Letís see who wins.

Itís really unlucky to be a lower-riparian.

(iii)
-----

Hmmmm regarding Chenab-Jehlum link canal, haa haaa, dear do you know

- the upper Chenab link Canal was first to be constructed and that was in 1912, to flow water from Chenab to Ravi
- the upper Jehlum ĖChenab link canals was constructed in 1915 to give water to chenab from jehlum and at that time there was no problem between upper and lower riparian

As regards Greater Thal Canal, it has been explained at H (iii) above.

--------------------------------------------------------------
K

(i)
15. However, there are indeed some points in minds of provinces which need to be cleared with them prior to finalizing any thing and technicalities of the project should deliberated upon instead of clamoring.

(ii)
>> I agree with you here. Some points of the affected parties may be fabricated or exaggerated but, irrespective of all that, they must be heeded. They are integral units of this country. Consensus must be achieved. The assemblies of these provinces have passed more than 7 resolutions against the dam. Building the dam is no doubt based on the assumption that three out of four provinces and more than 70 million people, who do not want the dam, are totally ignorant and do not know what is good for them. Itís undemocratic. Para-6 of Water Accords 1991 demands written consensus for the construction of a dam. Itís against the law to authoritatively proceed with such a controversial dam. Is Musharraf or Punjab above the law?

And, for your kind information, World Bank wonít finance the project until consensus is achieved.

(iii)
------

Dear me totally agree that Kalabagh must not be built till consensus is arrived

Hmmmmm, dear para 6 of 1991 Accord reads as under :

Ďíííí6. The need for storages, wherever feasible on the Indus and other rivers was admitted and recognized by the participants for planned future agricultural development.ííííí

Again for Musharaf please read at H (iii)
--------------------------------------------------------------
L

(i)
16. We need water for our future uses i.e. domestic/industrial requirements. For saving water the channels already in operation should be lined so that minimum loss occur due to percolation/seepage, on this the government has taken up in the matter but major is required to be done.

(ii)
>> Well, your points are absolutely right here. You have correctly objected the efficiency of channels. In my opinion, we should prefer efficiency over new projects. I have even come to know that our present dams aren't being used to the full storage capacity today? What will we do of this Kalabagh Dam? Musharraf is trying to build a bath tub for him and his ministers .

(iii)
-------
At present we do have three reservoirs 1) Tarbella 2) Mangla 3) Chashma, and these are utilized at their full storage and this is the reason that Mangla raising project is in the way.

Haa haaa, Bhai let Musharraf to consider the official business instead of having a big bath tub


(iv)
I have some more points. This time I can oppose the dam openly because you've taken the Punjabi (ha-ha) stance:

1) We don't have storage water.
2) Presently our debt stands at $35 billion. If we take $10 billion more it will rise to $45 billion and we will be further indebted. Letís break the shinning begging bowl now. Letís build small dams, with our own wherewithal and be care-free.
3) Kalabagh dam will be silted quite fast and it has a lifetime of 20 years only.
4) It has a very short life and a very big cost.
5) Its not a flood-control dam
6) IRSA has disapproved the dam.

7) EIA is a study which identifies and quantifies the benefits as well as the adverse effects of a project. It also recommends controlling measures to minimize the adverse effects. EIA is, in fact, a tool for the competent authority to facilitate his decision. It is for the competent authority to decide whether the residual adverse effects after mitigation are acceptable.

You would be surprised to know that EIA has not been carried out even for large projects of national importance. For example, it was not done for the Kalabagh Dam project along with the feasibility studies, and Wapda, on its own, proceeded to the final design stage.

8) Experts are highly opposed to mega projects
9) We must understand that we can't produce water. We should try to conserve nature to keep the supply running.

(v) step by step, 1 in this Clause would only referring to 1 in Sub section (iv) of L above
-----------------
1) hmmm, acha jee, but if we let about 25 MAF to flow to sea we could have 12-14 MAF easily

2) sure Munda dam, Mirani Dam Gomal Zam Dam etc. these al r small dam projects, but remember small dams cannot be considered as compared to big dam

As regards cost involved in the project, please note that the total expenditure incurred by the Government of Pakistan, up to June 2000, for the proposed Kalabagh Dam Project is Rs. 1,216.5 million. However, as per studies in 2000 ,when built the average annual benefit of Dam would be :

Annual Power Benefits : Rs.25.5 billion
Annual Irrigation Benefits : Rs.3.5 billion
Annual Flood alleviation benefits : Rs.0.7 billion

Total : 29.7 billion

3) hmmm who says that the dam would have 20 years lifetime, donít be kidding

5) dear it can easily control flood like which ruined many lands in the lowers Punjab nd upper sindh this year, the kalabagh can decrease the devastation

6) who says that IRSA has disapproved the dam

7) donít know about it

8) who experts Engr Fatehullah Khan, plz read the H (iii) above, many international reputed agencies has carried out studies and approved the project

9) sure we should conserve water, nd it can only be conserved when we store it, which can only be done through dams


(vi)
You know the Baglihar Dam Issue. Be informed that India is totally justified to build that dam on Chenab since it has some share in the western rivers according to the Indus Basin Treaty 1960. Actually Pakistan fears that India would encroach upon the rights of her water share after building the dam. And the condition is exactly the same inside the country. Sindh has the same reservations against Punjab. Itís disheartening to know that Pakistan can't bear injustice at the hands of an outsider but is unresponsive to the cries of one of its dear province

(vii)
----
dear plz go through the contents of Indus Water Treaty 1960, India is not justified to build dam like Baglihar this is the reason that Salal Dam project was also stopped

dear Pakistan contains all the provinces so plz donít mix this with the inter-provincial issues.

(viii)

After all this, if a dam is indispensable. Build Katzara dam. According to my studies, itís the best replacement! For further information pickup the "Economics and Business" pages of this Monday and read the topic "Choosing the right dam" by "Fatehullah Khan" who is a senior engineer and ex-chairman IRSA.

I am presenting the basic points below:

Katzara
The dam will generate 15,000 MW of environment-friendly power and avoid equivalent thermal power generation. This will help prevent global warming and improve the environment. It will change the landscape of the country by turning barren and desert like areas into a green landscape.

Katzarah will have six times the storage capacity of Basha or Kalabagh at the same cost. Mind this point; the storage capacity will be 36MAF at the same cost. It can be filled by super floods and no danger of destruction. It will control super floods in the Indus due to global warming and reduce the adverse backwater flow and flooding in the Kabul River in the Peshawar valley from Indus water due to heading up at the narrow Attock gorge.

It will save 35 MAF of floodwater (until super floods arise and there is waste water) going waste to sea each year and provide irrigation facilities for about 10 million acres (5 times more cultivation than Kalabagh) of barren land in the four provinces. Let it be clear that the mid-level sluicing Kalabagh according to its design and operation is not a flood control dam at all as it will be empty and will be on run-of-river from June 1 to July 20.

Katzara Dam alone can save all the dams on the way from silting. Built Bhasha after Katzara and it will last 800 years.

I personally have no allegiance to any political party. I am simply a well-wisher of Pakistan. My province "Sindh" exists with Pakistan. I am identified as a Pakistani (Though I derive my nationality).

(ix)
-------------

Dear brother, this is the worst mistake you would have committed ever

As evident from above lines, the main point of view to protest Kalabagh having 6.1 MAF is availability of water, and now you are proposing Katzarah having 35 MAF hmmm !!!!

The dam will destroy great natural ecosystems/habitats in the northern areas, which provide home to many endangered species

The dam is located very near to the artillery fire range of India, which can easily blow it up.

Kalabagh is a contention between the provinces, but katzarah would be a contention with northern areas, nd you would be well informed of the constitutional status of northern areas

Historical city of Skardu would totally be submerged including its run way

Nd the road network of Ghanche and Baltistan districts of Northern areas would be destroyed

My dear brother katzarah could b a dam for the fairies but not for humans

Perhaps these are some points against the idea of katzarah dam

--------------------------------------------------------

Views/comments are welcomed, dear Adil if you feel discomfort at any point plz donít fuss about it, I made the points as I was communicating to my brother, b free for any of further discussion in the matter
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Salaam,

Brother Tabassum, you have done a real great job. I appreciate. You've stuck me well, truly speaking, it's getting on my nerves.

Anyways... i'll handle it this time... once and for all

Regards,
Adil Memon

Expect a reply within the week after Eid. Thanks for taking the discussion to a higher level!

(Eid Mubarrak)
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dear Adil, dont fuss about it nd dnt take it to your nerves

we need major dams particularly for storing water for its usage during odd months, it is certain, whether we construct Kalabagh, Bhasha or Katzarah, but the consensus must be there and the feasibilty study of the project deem it to be a feasible project proposal

we must think beyond boundaries of provinces, if consensus + techincal approval is achieved on Bhasha then the Government ought to construct bhasha

well i m not in fully favour of Kalabagh or against Bhasha or Katzarah, for Kalabagh its feasibity study has been started since 50s, so its benefits nd drawbacks have been deliberated considerably

it is the matter of tme, which will prove appropriateness of a project, lets say about tarbella, its project was initially completed in perhaps 1974, but faults emerged nd it stop operating nd again started operations in 1976, so time is the best judger
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Salaam,

Brother I really appreciate the endeavours youíre taking to prove your stance. I have deleted all those paragraphs on which I agree/compromise to curtail the size of this reply.

My replies will be in BOLD font.

The water availability is indeed unreliable. The highest annual water availability in the recorded history (from 1922 todate) was 187 MAF (million acre feet) in the year 1959-60 as against the minimum of 96 MAF in the year 2001-2002, which averages to 141 MAF, however, from 1975 to date the water discharge on average is 145 MAF, please note that this do not include the highest available water in recorded history, but includes the lowest annual water availability.

Thank you very much for bringing in this detail here. This is the crux of contention. We were needlessly arguing over the technical specification when I was supposed to clear this point in the very beginning.

I agree with your data about the highest and lowest flow. But your average seems to be a little perplexing. According to the calculation from my statistics (The Politics of Managing Water Ė Kaiser Bengali, pp. 184-185) the average annual flow stands 137MAF. (Note: This figure includes the super floods that occur every 5th year). In all its calculations of availability of water, WAPDA has insisted on using average flow i.e. 137.27MAF to justify Kalabagh Dam. However this is a transitory position. And a big project like Kalabagh canít be based on transitory data.

The internationally accepted legal percept by which water availability should be calculated is explained by the United States Supreme Court, which has had to adjudicate on some extremely complex inter-state water disputes. In the case Wyoming v. Colorado (1922), the State of Wyoming sought to prevent the State of Colorado and two Colorado corporations from diverting the waters of the inter-state River Laramie. When the State of Colorado presented annual average flow figures as the measure of available supply of water, the US Supreme Court pronounced thus: ďTo be available in a practical sense, the supply must be fairly continuous and dependableÖ. Crops cannot be grown on expectations of average flows which do not come, nor on recollections of unusual flows which have passed down the stream prior in years. Only when the water is actually applied does the soil respond.Ē For the purpose of computation, the United States Supreme Court neither adopted the average over a long period nor the minimum, but the lowest average of any two successive years, excluding years of exceptionally low flow.

Now if this case is applied to Kalabagh Dam, the US Supreme Court ruling would have been worded thus: ĎTo be available in a practical sense, the supply must be fairly continuous and dependableÖ. Storage dams can not be filled on expectations of average flows which do not come, nor on recollections of unusual flows which have passed down the stream in previous years.í The criteria for filling the exorbitantly costly 8-10 billion dollar Kalabagh Dam should, therefore, be the same as elucidated by the US Supreme Court, i.e. the lowest average of any two successive years, excluding the years of exceptionally low flow.

Right in front of my eyes I have a table of Annual Western River Inflows which you can get in (The Politics of Managing Water Ė edited by Kaiser Bengali, pp. 184-185). I have calculated on the above mentioned criteria the legal figure which stands at 124.4 MAF. Now this is very close to the ď4 out of 5Ē figure 123.59 MAF calculated by excluding the flooding years. Thus I will be holding the ďfour out of fiveĒ years calculation method as the standard one.

Now before attempting to calculate the available water for Kalabagh, it would be pertinent to introduce the elements of system losses due to percolation in the riverbeds between the rim stations and various barrages. Rim stations are points in the river where measurements regarding the water available during Kharif and Rabi are taken by officially designated authorities. The rim stations for Indus, Jhelum and Chenab are situated at Kalabagh, Mangla and Marala respectively. In this respect, annual average system losses are estimated at 15.19 MAF. The arithmetic of water availability can be attempted as:

Water requirement: 139.54 MAF
(Details)
Allocation to four provinces: 114.35 MAF (taking your figure)
System Losses: 15.19 MAF
Release below Kotri for outflow to sea: 10 MAF

Water available: 123.59 MAF

The balance to store in Kalabagh Dam is -15.95 MAF. That means we already lack that amount of water.


Uses of that alleged 35MAF of Water downstream Kotri:
1) Stop sea intrusion
2) Mangrove forests cultivation (the forests that are out of the reach of Sea)
3) Agriculture downstream kotri
4) Drinking and sanitation water for 120000 people (200 villages).

The figure wonít be that 35MAF in near future. I have already discussed this point in my essay.


Dear we get extra electricity generation only for small period of time i.e. in high water available months, whereas in remaining months we are in short of electricity thatís why we face load shedding. As per studies, the cost of one unit of hydel power is 8-10 times less than cost of other power generating resources like gas or coal. Further, we are boosting industrial sector, which indeed require cheap source of energy and that is only hydel power.


Capital costs escalate once social displacement and environmental degradation are taken into view.

The energy generated wonít be cheap due to lack of concessional funding.

Let me tell you something here. Economic growths are always boosted at the cost of nature. And this is what India and China are presently doing. Today they are the worldís biggest polluting countries. Recently, when I had the pleasure to watch ďBBC News ExtraĒ which was based on different aspects of Indian economy and development, I saw the countryís best environmentalist raising concerns about nature.

By stating all this I do not mean that I am against Economic Growth. All I want to say is that we must work on efficiency at the first priority.


Dear the majority of part where the dam is proposed comprise of barren hilly or sub-hilly tracts and these areas are sparsely populated so perhaps nothing to be worried. The overalls cost involved in rehabilitation of people had been mentioned in the feasibility, and it would definitely be revised when the dam is to be finalized as such the people would get the land price of that day.


I appreciate your response here. Leaving aside everything else, you didnít touch the most important point is that of lack of trust. You did not mention what should NWFP do if she does not trust Central Government for its safeguards and rehabilitation plan. The people of Tarbela were humiliated Ė do you have anything to say about this?

Bhai, imagine if I build a dam in your house and pay you the full price of your house and land. Will you leave that place?


Hmmm brother the problem of distribution of water, perhaps first time rose in 1945, any how, the maximum storage level of Tarbela at one time is 9 MAF it does not mean that whole year the dam stores 9 MAF, and the share increased for the Sindh is 9 MAF for the whole year, nd specifically during the odd months i.e. Rabi season the Sindh got more water. As such the share of water increased.

Water flow is quite low in Rabi so surely there is no storage during those months. The water is stored during the months of Kharif only and delivered during the months of Rabi. I donít know how is it possible for a dam that stores 9MAF in Kharif and delivers that quantity in Rabi to increase the share of Sindh by its total quantity doing nothing for the other provinces.


During the year 1999-2000, the total irrigated area, using all sources available in the Punjab, was of the order of 13.8 million hectares. This included 11 million hectares in the canal commands. The private tubewells and wells irrigated 6.8 million acres during the same period.

During the year 1999-2000, the total irrigated area, using all sources in Sindh, was of the order of 3.52 million hectares. This included 2.39 million hectares of irrigated land in the canal commands. The private tubewells and wells irrigated 0.13million hectares during the same period.

However, during the kharif periods from 1990-2000, Punjab used 34.3 MAF annually, while Sindh and Balochistan used 31.4 MAF and NWFP used 2.35 MAF. Look in Punjab about 11 million hectares was irrigated from 34 MAF and in Sindh about 2.39 million hectares was irrigated from appx 29 MAF. Hmmmmm



Why donít you say it clearly that you donít want to release any water to Sindh (hahahaha)? I am knowledgeless about your statistics. However, I wonder how could a province that used to feed the whole sub-continent during the days of British, yield so less today. You know better that Sindhís land has been/is being degraded due to lack of water. The water share of Sindh is not only used for irrigation but also for drinking and other purposes. Punjab has more than 350,000 tubewells through which it draws 40MAF annually. It has a huge rainfall compared to Sindh. I donít really understand what are you trying to prove here ?

Shaheen Rafi Khan, SPDI, Islamabad, states in (The Managing of Water Politics Ė edited by Kaiser Bengali, pp. 176-177) that we do not have extra land for extensive cultivation.

My Uncle, an officer of Revenue Dept. states that according to law we can not cultivate more than 30% of the cultivable land.

And Shaheen may be right. We might have reached the limit.



Dear me too agreed IUCN data as mentioned at H (iv) above, but if the 27 MAF is required indeed at that case we do have 12 MAF (average) easily and for Kalabagh we need maximum of 6 MAF.

Let me tell you another thing, in Rabi we only have 4-6 MAF going to sea, and for sustained movement of fresh water we also need a reservoir from where fresh water could be sent to sea for good environment.

Ok!! Now release that 27 MAF from your alleged 39 MAF into the sea. 12 MAF remain. Now read my above calculation regarding water availability. Do you think we will have water to store in kalabagh in future?


At present only one species is in Indus Delta and that is salt tolerant.

I explored more about this issue. Actually the problem is about reach of water. The sea water canít reach some areas to cultivate mangrove forests. They can be reached by the downstream water only.


Hmmmm dear if the Kalabagh dam is a lollypop by Musharaf, than why the project remained in proposals since 1953, perhaps at that Musharaf would be doing something in his school.

The dam hasnít been built yet. Musharraf has given a green signal for the construction due to the above mentioned reason. You will find me pathetic if you read this with closed eyes .

And the ruling elite in the Central Government (since the inception of Pakistan) has always been replete with Punjabis. NO MORE COMMENTS!

But you still did not tell me why are people against Kalabagh Dam if they really have no problems? What donít they fight over other dams? You know that we donít have any provincial harmony. Why are Sindh, Balochistan and NWFP altogether against the dam?

I want to know why?


As regards Kalabagh, numerous studies have been carried out both by foreign and Pakistani consultants like Chas T. Main, Hazra, Pieter Lieftnick (WB), Montreal Engg. Company (MECO), A.C.E, Wapda etc.

I mentioned the names of technicians of Pakistan that backed the opposition behind the politicians. The people and institutions you have mentioned, donít run Pakistan. Itís the politicians that rule the government. When politicians of three out of four provinces have given a NO vote on the dam it should have been dropped forthwith.

Hmmmm regarding Chenab-Jehlum link canal, haa haaa, dear do you know

- the upper Chenab link Canal was first to be constructed and that was in 1912, to flow water from Chenab to Ravi
- the upper Jehlum ĖChenab link canals was constructed in 1915 to give water to chenab from jehlum and at that time there was no problem between upper and lower riparian

As regards Greater Thal Canal, it has been explained at H (iii) above.

SorryÖ actually I mis-spelled the word. It was Chasma not Chenab. Do you have to say anything about it now. All my above mentioned assertions are accepted country-wide. Let me see how do you refute them?

If you are really anxious to know about Punjabís dealing with Sindh in the past please refer ďSindh-Punjab Water DisputeĒ Ė Rasool Bux Palijo (RBS). The book is written over 110+ pages, you will be able to finish it within a day or two. Itís a nice book.


At present we do have three reservoirs 1) Tarbella 2) Mangla 3) Chashma, and these are utilized at their full storage and this is the reason that Mangla raising project is in the way.

Haa haaa, Bhai let Musharraf to consider the official business instead of having a big bath tub

Difference in sources/statistics. Leave it right here!

(Fun part)
Bhai just imagine Musharraf and his wife swimming in Kalabagh Dam. How would it look like ?


1) hmmm, acha jee, but if we let about 25 MAF to flow to sea we could have 12-14 MAF easily
I donít agree that we have any surplus water.

2) sure Munda dam, Mirani Dam Gomal Zam Dam etc. these al r small dam projects, but remember small dams cannot be considered as compared to big dam

We donít have the resources to manage large dams.

As regards cost involved in the project, please note that the total expenditure incurred by the Government of Pakistan, up to June 2000, for the proposed Kalabagh Dam Project is Rs. 1,216.5 million. However, as per studies in 2000 ,when built the average annual benefit of Dam would be :

Annual Power Benefits : Rs.25.5 billion
Annual Irrigation Benefits : Rs.3.5 billion
Annual Flood alleviation benefits : Rs.0.7 billion

Total : 29.7 billion



Abrar Kazi, Water expert, stands the cost of Kalabagh at 8-10 billion dollars, which is nearly 480 Ė 600 BILLION Rupees. I donít know about your source.

Dams only yield benefits if they are filled with water. Empty dams donít serve any purpose. Kalabagh Dam is not a flood-control dam according to Fatehullah Khan.


3) hmmm who says that the dam would have 20 years lifetime, donít be kidding

I learnt that Kalabagh dam is situated at a site where it will be silted/sedimented quite fast. And itís overall lifetime will be only 20 years. My knowledge is all based on media. It may be fabricated so I wonít be consistent on this assessment.


5) dear it can easily control flood like which ruined many lands in the lowers Punjab nd upper sindh this year, the kalabagh can decrease the devastation

Fatehullah Khan says Kalabagh Dam is not a flood-control dam.

6) who says that IRSA has disapproved the dam

[Khuda ki Kassam ] I read this somewhere. I will disclose the source as soon as I recall it.

7) donít know about it (EIA STUDY)

Donít say that you donít know. Because to know, is your responsibility .

8) who experts Engr Fatehullah Khan, plz read the H (iii) above, many international reputed agencies has carried out studies and approved the project

I did not say Experts are opposed to Kalabagh Dam. I said, Ďmega projectsí. Tell me if you disagree with me here?


9) We must understand that we can't produce water. We should try to conserve nature to keep the supply running.

9) sure we should conserve water, nd it can only be conserved when we store it, which can only be done through dams

We donít have water to conserve. By conserving nature I meant maintaining a steady flow into the sea so that the natural cycle works fine.

You know the Baglihar Dam Issue. Be informed that India is totally justified to build that dam on Chenab since it has some share in the western rivers according to the Indus Basin Treaty 1960. Actually Pakistan fears that India would encroach upon the rights of her water share after building the dam. And the condition is exactly the same inside the country. Sindh has the same reservations against Punjab. Itís disheartening to know that Pakistan can't bear injustice at the hands of an outsider but is unresponsive to the cries of one of its dear province

(vii)
----
dear plz go through the contents of Indus Water Treaty 1960, India is not justified to build dam like Baglihar this is the reason that Salal Dam project was also stopped

Baglihar Dam:
Though I stay consistent at my words, but I will avoid any confrontation on this matter right now. Leave it for future.

In the interim, you can come up with the clauses/sections of the IBT which are being violated.


Dear brother, this is the worst mistake you would have committed ever (regarding Katzara Dam)

HahaÖ you donít have any objections to Kalabagh Dam but youíre strictly opposed to Katzara which will store six times more quantity of water within the same cost. This dam will efficiently control FLOODS which Kalabagh wonít. If you think Kalabagh dam will be replete with water why donít we store the same 6.1 MAF in Katzara.

Darling.. every dam destroys the eco-system. Kalabagh also does that. You care about the endangered species of animals but not about those 100,000+ humans that will be dislocated (to be outspoken, humiliated).

Nothing is beyond the reach of India. Bhasha is also proposed near Katzara. I donít think that dams are proposed without considering these things. Is Pakistan beyond the reach of India .

You are afraid of the conflict within Northern Areas, but you donít care if the country is being disintegrated after building Kalabagh Dam.

Well brother, in the end I have only one point to say. We donít have enough water to store. Building dams will only increase debt.

Clincher: Build Kalabagh but after achieving consensus.

I hope the discussion has been enough on this topic. Letís drop it! Big authorities of our country have failed to reach a consensus so surely that wonít be possible for you and me too.

If itís not possible for youÖ I unconditionally surrender! Go build it .

Regards,
Adil Memon

(Please donít ever get offended. I am just like your younger brother.)

Agar koi baat buri laggi ho to ghareeb samajh kar mauf kar dena.
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Old Tuesday, November 08, 2005
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AOA

dear i always tried to make my points considering you my at place of my younger brother, u c we r four brother by the grace of Allah and v r trained by our parents in such a way that we r the best frined of each other, so i suppose that i have placed u at the position of a friend as well

me too dont think to linger more

any how, dear whatsoever is the business of state, mind it that u r opposing Kalabagh
dam on the contention of low water availability but then u support Katzarah, so if u r opposing kalabagh dam on other footings then support Katzarah or Bhasha other wise no need to do it just support small dams

well there r some other reasons to opose Kalabagh like

- it can destroy the salt mines in salt range
- several oil and gas plants would be submerged under water
- the sedimentation rate is high, this is not bcoz of Indus, but bcoz of Soan and Kabul rivers
- though politicians r not related to any engineering work, but there views should b taken considering them public representatives nd if consensus is emerged then it is okay

however, the priority should b conserve the existing water nd if u remember i mentioned that about 60 % of water is wasted from their journey from canal heads to fields, v must save it nd can utilize it optimally

ny how, have a very nice day, may Allah bless you
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