Originally Posted by Gypsified

@Umar Abbas: That's quite right, but as they say, "cuius regio enis religio" (whoever runs the country decides which church you go to). So the people who actually run the country (we know politicians have a little say in this matter and the actual reins of power have remained elsewhere) have interests deeply rooted in religious bigotry, and thus a totalitarian society.

I, however, do believe that even if we keep religion out of the equation, to some extent at least, we can still live together in harmony. There are a lot of examples of secular states that bind people together with different ethnic identities and religious backgrounds, even races. Problem is, this can be done if we actually have a sense of common history and culture that goes way beyond the Arab invaders, all the way to Indus Valley Civilization that stretched from Northern areas of Pakistan all the way to ancient Sindh - something that is not taught in any public or even private schools and higher educational institutes.

Even if contemporary regional cultures are different, that is something to be cherished and can exist in perfect harmony. But for that, people who run the state should be willing, which they aren't. Alternatively, the civil society (which is next to non-existent in Pakistan) has to play its role in a democracy. For that, however, democracy needs to flourish and we haven't seen that yet in Pakistan, unfortunately. What a complicated situation! (and there are people who have a simple solution: just impose "shariah" and everything would be hunky-dory).

It's a delight to have an intelligent conversation. Thanks a lot, mechrose37 and Umar Abbas.

Originally Posted by Ahmed Green

'Not 'Indo-Pak' History, it's 'History of Muslims in India'

Anyways, i was told by an elder very early in my age that history is a set of lies, not many are lucky enough to know this through out their life.

Originally Posted by Bilal Hassan

I think there is nothing wrong in the contents of that subject. There is no complex Philosophy involved, only the title of that Subject is wrong, this definitely must be the "History of Islam in Indo Pak".....That's it!

Let us be rational, if we assume that the title must be "History of Islam in Indo Pak" then do we really need to study the Guptas and Moryas of ancient India? Logic says No. We are Muslims and we need to know about the our forefathers who first came to India and the natives who converted into Muslims. Why do you forget the saying of Quaid e Azam when he defined the Two Nation Theory "Pakistan came into existence on that very day when the first Hindu became Muslim".....we need to study the History of Islam in that region as per the requirement of our subject contents and also as a Muslim.

If someone is interested in knowing the History of India then he/she can take it as a subject and study it separately, lamenting on the absence of his expectations is beside the mark.

A celebrated Historian Stanley Lanepoole has also dealt that subject in its own sphere in his book "Mediaeval India Under Mohammedan Rule Ad 712 to 1764" which is the clear manifestation that this period has its own subject of study and Lanepoole and other Historians like K.Ali aslo take it as separate field of study

So the conclusion is that if someone is interested in studying Guptas etc he/she had better appear in ICS exam, i think there he will have his wish fulfilled.

Stay Blessed.

Originally Posted by umarabbas

nicely penned down but as the title suggested by you also contains Indo- along with Pak so we shouldn't ignore the Gupta Shupta we don't specifically need to appear in ICS to study that

Originally Posted by out of place

We have many identities. We are not Muslims alone. We are Baloch, pushtun, Punjabi,Sindhi and kashmiri too...Slogans such as Pakistani first or Muslim first are just that-slogans and are futile exercise in empty nationalism. Ours is a heterogeneous country and the ever-elusive national integration can only be achieved if we respect and recognise the differences and foster "unity in diversity".

Originally Posted by out of place

Using 712 AD as a cut-off point only serves to cut us off from our collective heritage of thousands of years. Our attachment to this land we call our home go back to ancient times..Indus,our beloved river, did not begin to flow only after Muhammad bin qasim set foot on our land. It is there since ages. And how can the history of a people and a land be complete without factoring in rhythms of the river that gave birth to its civilisation in the first place? And how on earth can we disown glorious chapters of Moen-jo-daro and Gandhara ?
Moreover, tracing our country's history only back to 712 A.D serves another dubious purpose. It is an attempt to over-simplify the historical processes spread over more than a millennium(from 712 to 1947). In such a simplistic narrative, religion explains almost every historical event, culminating into a separate 'Islamic' state of course and an eternal 'Hindu' enemy next door, what else. Whereas,in fact, history is a scientific understanding of causal relationship between different events. It is a continuum and cannot be easily divided into watertight compartments.

Originally Posted by mechrose37

My apologies ! Islam does not forbid us to sever our roots with our proud and ancient past.Persians,Arabs,Turks and Afghan all feel pride in their pre-Islamic achievements;why cannot we ? Embracing a religion does not mean that we should not adapt and adhere to those traditions and cultural norms which do not run opposite to Islam.
Only a nation suffering from a deep sense of inferiority can disown her past as our totalitarian rulers and bigot clergymen have impelled us to do.I feel as much pride in the ancient civilisation of Mohenjodaro,Mehargarh and Harrapa,in achievements of Chandra Gupta and Asoka,in benign and tender message of Buddha, as I do in the achievements of muslims in field of science and art.We are Pakistanis and our present and future is inextricably linked with our pre-Islamic and pre-historic past whether we like it or not;our past is well reflected in our language,ethnography and norms and mores.Culturally we are more linked with India,Persia and Afghanistan than the distant lands of Arab and North Africa.Being a Pakistani we must be taught pre-islamic history of India,which is our very own.Anybody interested in studying History of Islam better opt Islamic History and Culture.