[QUOTE=Zainab S;926879]In Juvenile Delinquency section there is a point regarding [B]behavioral vs Legal[/B].[/QUOTE]
Let me explain you one thing the j.d itself is a legal defination.
Behavioral:Theories that you have already studied and try to analyze which theory applies to individual beings in addition add
Conduct disorder
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and truency etc
(remember these are all behavioral)
[QUOTE]So behavioral is chronic repeaters. Who are legal ones? Are those the ones that get trial in adult courts?
[/QUOTE]
Nope, its not behavioral but legal j.d which is chronice such as murder, rape, and embezzlement and such crimes have serious ramifications.
Nope, there are special courts where juveniles are dealt with as far as my limited knowledge is concerned.(Let me confirm this)
Yeah iam sure that they are not retained in ordinary cells and even not handcuffed.
I hope it has done some work for you.:thinking

[QUOTE=ursula;926896]
Nope, there are special courts where juveniles are dealt with as far as my limited knowledge is concerned.(Let me confirm this)
Yeah iam sure that they are not retained in ordinary cells and even not handcuffed.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the special courts are known as juvenile courts and even poor are retained in special refugees cells.
Let me tell you the situation in Pakistan is very oblique and even minors criminals are used to settle the family dispute.in addition to having no protective mechanism to stop them from brain washing.
Oh yeah, brain washing in madrassahs also produce minor offenders such as patriarchal dominance and obsessive masculinity.
try to observe your society and you can find more than that.:oo

Hmm. I read it then found a lawyer to explain. Sadly she only confused me more. I am going with yours. I hope to meet my friend soon who is criminologist to ask her for more clarification. I feel like a thick head but oh well.. it was bound to happen. I moved on to punishments and trial and conviction.
I read about courts and God, could it be not more dense. No wonder public doesn't understand justice process. So many courts and parallel systems. God! Damagh ki dahi.
Couple of things I read and not really sure if I needed to like I read about Police, their ranks, their training at least of the prison staff and their problems. I don't think I need to read police acts. Do I?
I know I need to read their role in trial process.
I have to read about criminal agencies now and they seems like an eclectic bunch. How do they not go all the time in each other domain is beyond me.

Note: Don't read too much out of it, these are mostly rambling of a common Pakistani who is for the time in her life reading about law enforcement and justice system and has no idea what is happening.

I had to say it cause new cyber law just got passed. Just trying to be safe. :D

[QUOTE=Zainab S;927707]Hmm. I read it then found a lawyer to explain. Sadly she only confused me more. I am going with yours. I feel like a thick head but oh well.. it was bound to happen. I moved on to punishments and trial and conviction.[/QUOTE]
Let me first apologize you for strangling the answer for longer than normal, because of some matters.

Yeah, lawyers have their own level of explanation which is beyond the intelligensia of persons like us.
[QUOTE]I hope to meet my friend soon who is criminologist to ask her for more clarification[/QUOTE].
In case of having a tryst with criminologist, do mention her's nice information so that i can also be got benefited.
[QUOTE]I read about courts and God, could it be not more dense. No wonder public doesn't understand justice process. So many courts and parallel systems. God! Damagh ki dahi.[/QUOTE]
Do you ever heard or read about the "evasive norms"? I mean there has always been tough doodles that either needs special attention or either they are being sidelines.In case it is making your damagh k dahi than put this stuff in pending.:0
Than hit it after some break with fresh mind and with good ides.
[QUOTE]Couple of things I read and not really sure if I needed to like I read about Police, their ranks, their training at least of the prison staff and their problems. I don't think I need to read [B]police acts[/B]. Do I?
I know I need to read their role in trial process.[/QUOTE]
lol, police order act 2002 is a must read stuff,else how can you understand the [B]incapacity[/B] of police institution.
Let me share with you ma strategy.
I made the comparative notes b/w po2002 and po1860s.ironically our provinces are divided even on such a simple things.i.e.Kpk and punjab follow po02 and Sindh and Baloch po1860(Check it out i didnt remember the year)
At the same time in po02 act [B]prosecution department is got alienated from investigative department[/B](all i can say is that po02 is more reformative and good one than that of his previous predecessor)
Pew, gather some good stufff, it will enhance your analytical abilities.
[QUOTE]I have to read about criminal agencies now and they seems like an eclectic bunch. How do they not go all the time in each other domain is beyond me.[/QUOTE]
Yup,thats why i dont like army personnels. They are prime muddlers in making the water bit murky.Anyhow poking the nose in others matter is a major concern in Pakistan. One such prime example 'judicial activism'.
Count them too, again goody good for analysis.
[QUOTE]
Note: Don't read too much out of it, these are mostly rambling of a common Pakistani who is for the time in her life reading about law enforcement and justice system and has no idea what is happening.[/QUOTE]
if it is a good piece of advise for me than dear i will consider it.:glare:
[QUOTE]I had to say it cause new cyber law just got passed. Just trying to be safe. :D[/QUOTE]
oh my gosssh, are you talking about laws in Pakistan?
than dear such laws though seems fascinating but i'm betting the situation is still quite oblique.That's why i believe and strongly believe:[B]Prevention is better than cure.[/B]
Sighhhh!
[B]Yar, you really gotten me out of my trouble by saying this[/B].
Thanks, dude!:haha:haha:haha

[QUOTE=ursula;928472]Let me first apologize you for strangling the answer for longer than normal, because of some matters.
[/QUOTE] It's ok. Life and job get in my way too. Sigh.
[QUOTE=ursula;928472]
Yeah, lawyers have their own level of explanation which is beyond the intelligensia of persons like us.[/QUOTE]
I think it is an art to tell complex matters in simple language so everyone understands it. Most of the people, I have noticed, know the subject well and you get the feeling that they know but they just can't put it in words or use wording that only makes the matter more complicated. I guess I'll have to find another lawyer. Let's see.
[QUOTE=ursula;928472]
In case of having a tryst with criminologist, do mention her's nice information so that i can also be got benefited.

Do you ever heard or read about the "evasive norms"?...
Than hit it after some break with fresh mind and with good idea.[/QUOTE]

Sure thing. I am planning to do same but after a month or two. For some reason I am not that fond of section 2 of criminology. Everything I read is another country's context and when I read Pakistani context, there is nothing going on but heartache and disappointment. I read about prisons and the way prisoners get treated in Pakistan and it left me in shock for sometime. So everything regarding police and prisoners is in bad taste for me.
Just to clarify: There are shortcomings when it comes to pak police. But I can't blame them for it all. We as community and nation have failed them as well. Their work hours are long. Their pays are low. They are the ones that die all the time fighting terrorists or while at check posts. Their budget is low and reformation process is working at snail's pace. They are deeply politicised. I mean if I am a police officer and I capture two hard criminals and instead of encouraging me, MNA of my area calls and say release them- I would lose my head right there and then.
Not ignoring the bad conduct of them too. long debate...
so yes the section 2 for me is just a section which brings only disappointment. I might completely skip over it and lose a whole question. sigh. Tough choice.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ursula;928472]

I made the comparative notes b/w po2002 and po1860s.[/QUOTE]
I skimmed through them because the outline point asked for police and its role in juvenile and criminal justice system. I took it with respect to how police should go about trials and gathering evidence from FIR to conviction or the end of trial. I also checked prosecution and police's strained relationship but I didn't think that deep analyses of acts was necessary. Could you explain why you thought it was part of the course and did it?

I am not challenging in any way just that if your point makes more sense, I need to sit and do it too.
[QUOTE=ursula;928472]
Yup,thats why i dont like army personnels.
oh my gosssh, are you talking about laws in Pakistan?[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying. Judicial activism is what I abhor a lot. I am team Beccaria when it comes to judges. Obviously he was pissed like us back then. lol.
and yes, that law. I was being sarcastic. I am anti cyber-crime bill. I don't think it is the right way to legislate and oh well... whatever. It has yet to go through senate and I am hoping that it might not get through.

Acha kaam ki baat:
Section 2, point 7: Punitive and reformative treatment of criminals
Corporal punishment, imprisonment and rehabilitation of criminals.

So I googled over it and it doesn't seem very tricky but I thought to run it through you.
Let's take imprisonment for instance
[B]Imprisonment:[/B]
-I checked the history of prisons (a sub point in criminal justice system as well)
-Why do we imprison people? Is it successful? does it help people to repent or make them worse? (In our case it makes them turn into hardened criminals esp when it comes to mingling of young criminals with professionals)
-rehabilitation vs retribution
- gathered articles on uk prisons, US prisons then model prisons of Sweden and Norway. (again linked to previous prison point)
-recidivism
-imprisonment issues in Pakistan (over crowding, different classes, budget problems, sexual abuse, diseases, no segregation, paisa bolta hai thus drugs, mobile etc can be provided if you have the dough. Sometimes it is hard for me to differentiate prison from imprisonment. I am considering imprisonment is related to inmates and prisons to procedures and rules but I can be wrong. What do you think?)
-prison officers, their education and training and relation with prisoners
-imprisonment and mental issues (Post incarceration syndrome)
-Rights of prisoners according to UN and Pakistan
-Women prisoners. (I have very little on them)
-Tried to find NGOs that work for prisoners. I found Dost, Sanjog, Society for Human Rights and Prisoners' Aid and a missionary society.

so what else? Is it all that there is? I am asking because well I did similar thing with police and its role and you were like no acts are part of it and now I am not sure about anything. lol.

Inshallah explain you in detail.:blush:

[QUOTE=malikwasif;928926]plz recommend books for criminology[/QUOTE]
have you fully [B]explore [/B]this forum before putting this question.
We already done this!
[QUOTE=Zainab S;928731]
I skimmed through them because the outline point asked for police and its role in juvenile and criminal justice system. I took it with respect to how police should go about trials and gathering evidence from FIR to conviction or the end of trial. I also checked prosecution and police's strained relationship but I didn't think that deep analyses of acts was necessary. Could you explain why you thought it was part of the course and did it?[/QUOTE]
Lol! again either you didn’t comprehend me rightly or am I to you!
Iam not taking the police order 2002 merely within the context of juveniles and justice system.Am taking it in a wholesome perspective.
Let me explain you in detail, what I mean when I was saying that acts are a must read stuff.(I hope this time It will make some sense)
Btw: I love to be positively critice and wherever you redeem me fit in this regard, find me among the brown nosers!
Well, all points are exclusively put on the drawing board by ownself, hence ractify me where it is needed,please!

according to police order act 2002:

1.Responsibilities of police
To protect the life, liberty and property of an ordinary citizens under the constitution(a very simple point , yet having enormous repurcussions)
For example under the act citizens can approach to police for getting relief from the grief, but we know in practice it doesn’t. So there is a good source of argument that police is [B]non cognizant of their own duties[/B]. For example ordinary [U]patwari culture[/U] is challenging the constitution.
How?
Just imagine about a poor tenant whose land is being grasped by a landlords and through certain manipulations done by the patwars piece of property is legalized to aristocrats, you can gather evidences from southern Punjab and Sindh etc.
Oh yeah no need to mention how angelic Punjab police is with women and children, model town incidence is a case study in this regard!

2.Recuitment process too ambiguous:

Since I already mentioned before that our provinces are divided on the implementation of po act,so as the police officers as well. Since we know Asp is recruited through css exam, and when they are being put in practical field ambiguity of the constitution make them vulnerable too.
we follow old constitution ie po act 1986 in Sindh and Balochistan, while in Kpk and Punjab it is poo2. which divides their power and authority as well.

police order act 1986 restrains progress and promotion of an officer as conditioned to commissioners report creating some loop holes in the system that serves the best purpose of the politicians. Just check out the progressive records of ex iG of Sindh.(We have needed the uniformity of law across the country.)
Moreover, p002, organizes the police according to the functional basis that includes

1. Investigation
2. Intelligence
3. Watch and ward
4. Reserve police
5. Police accountability
6. Personal management
7. Education and training
8. Finance and internal audit
9. Crime prevention
10. Crime against women
11. Traffic planning and management
12. Criminal identification
13. Informational technology
14. Transport
15. Research and Development
16. Legal affairs
17. Welfare
18. Estate manangement
(though it is ambiguous but its implementation is quite questionable)

[B]My analysis:[/B]

Investigation mechanism
is obsoleted stock and there are just numbered forensic labs that also lacks legitimate authority. Common paradigm is rape in whose case council of Islamic ideology has already challenged it as ‘unislamic’.

Refer to intelligence,
than who knowst the absolute monarchy of ISI,ooops police is rendered incompetent.
Watch and ward:
I was told it is in practice, but my question- due budget constraint in addition to fulfilling the purpose of politicians.
Police accountability,
good initiative like” Distric Public Safety Commission”/provincial/national as well,again memebers are appointed by the government from amongst the members of the provincial assembly and national assembly of the district concerned.(That’s creates bitter tone for me, as I know how fair and impartial our leaders are really are)
Let me share you commission formed for probing the case of panama papers. it is even headed by “Mam Maryam Nawaz”! how is alleged in white collar crime
lol how fantastic the report would be, just enjoy this good party,:laugh:
Internal auditing
I don’t know why ma mind is always a strong critique of this word, Once I read auditing book and what I have had concluded that in Pakistan it is a mere pretext to save the grimace of corrupt boggies rather initiate external auditing mechanism in police department.
Cause, if iam in the system than how I can challenge the status quo!

Information and technology
Goood joke, even today FIR are being recorded manually, when we will realize this that we are living in[B] 21st century[/B], and that terrorist are frequently using the advanced webcams and raking devices,(if I do mention than seriously your mind baffle)
One such example is Taliban who vied the intelligence agencies cause of their technological advancement such as night visioned infrared cameras and raking the targeted ………
Research and development
Good part but again under staffing and low budget combined with political affiliation,
Solution is difficult to suggest.(by the way research and development is headed by National Police Bureau-Subordinated unit of National public safety commission) good mcq!


[B][U]Some suggestions:[/U][/B]


Police department must have its own independent body much like that of Our military establishment having the highest ranking authority as the [B]head of Police[/B] which is responsible to special commission headed by chief justice of all provinces( I am against the absolute muddling of Prime minister and president, since CSS age realaxation petitions has really baffled ma mind).The aforementioned head of police acts independently act to nominate the officers and their posting mechanism irrespective of political paddlements, at the same time it is being assured that “competent officers” are allowed to work freely taking the brunts of brass at no cost.
Now come to police budget constraints, my best solution is bidding of some tangible stocks in addition to taking soft term loans from international institutions besides getting the expertise of states like USA,England and China;moreover, public and private cooperation is a good option indeed.


Obssessive medling of military institutes have made the system absolutely crippled that needs now a full stop, remember .it’s the responsibility of police to restore peace within the state and army’s final fate is in barricades not the districts and metropolis.
Counter narration and propaganda campaign must be stopped since we know there is such a hyposcrisy in our society that when a police officer is got dead in an encounter is considerd “expired”, while in case of army officers are labeled as “martyr’.
P.S. it doesn’t mean that I have a strong reculsions towards army officers,but atleast we should have needed to accept the others performance as well.Since an army officer has some good fate in case of assassination but police department is left helpless like an orphan .
Pew! bit mad! Sorry I made the story tooo long.

[QUOTE=Zainab S;928731]-Why do we imprison people?[/QUOTE]
Well,here is the reason,
The main purpose of imprisonment in a humane society is reformation of the criminal, the second is deterrence to other would-be criminals and only thirdly the (temporary) removal from society of a threat. But usually there are better alternatives to prison: especially with young people, it is HUGELY more effective if they can be kept away from the HIDEOUSLY expensive and generally dooming experience of prison. Of course, as with anything, prvention is better than cure: there was a study several years ago which showed that every pound spent on a youth project saved nine pounds in the cost of coping with crime after the criminal was made. Human psychology is what it is and we must account for it: reject someone from society and you have very little chance of preventing their further self-withdrawl. Have policy makers not read Dickens? (!) We have not come so far c.f. report on Birmingham prison this week. Finally, note that, contrary to the rabid fascist healdine-writers at the Mail and Telegraph and News of the World, in a humane society it is profoundly NOT the objective for Justice to meter out vengence. Babylonian eye-for-an-eye sentencing and spectacle has no place in a democracy, or in any Christian country. Sombody should tell the Americans.
Source:oxford university press,by M.B.Drannan

[QUOTE]Is it successful? does it help people to repent or make them worse? (In our case it makes them turn into hardened criminals esp when it comes to mingling of young criminals with professionals)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, in Pakistan situation is quite hella heka, and for juveniles I would still rather prefer detention as source of good choice of mine.
Since I know that juvenile delinquents are born and inbred which according to Chicago school of thought is based on wrong trajectories and misguided fantast.By providing the minors education and reformative adaptive behaviors, we can reduce the no of susceptible professional criminals in the future. Consider an x juvenile addicted of heroine, than I am betting without isolation from his/her peers you cant amend the person into a normal entity being.
While In other context owing to overcrowding and rapid diffusion with hard core rascals the situation gets out of the Pandora box.Let me remind you in that particular case the police department has violated the not only the constitution (juvenile justice system of the constitution) but also Convention on children protection.


[QUOTE]-rehabilitation vs retribution [/QUOTE]
Hunnnn! very good question, I am love init!
Let me explain you retribution first.
Retribution=tit for tat
Retribution basically works for those hard core criminals to whom state considers great threat for society and their existent without any good punitive punishment means giving a message to other intruders to do so. Like, murderers, rapist, and killers etc.
Well, in police order act 2002, functional specialization means division of police into operation and investigation.Investigative branch collects the evidences and present it in the court,While that of operation branch to prevent the crime.
Now retribution of juveniles is exclusively the case which is dealt in the courts and ngos type of organization.
Here the case of Shafqat Hussain can elaborate you my point prodigiously. Since he is being hanged through judicial proceedings.So retribution is still working for j.d.
Now come to rehabilitation
Rehabilitation works on [B]humanitarian grounds[/B] and more acceptable form of punishment in developed and civilized society. That includes training like already mentioned Rational Emotive behavior therapy, treatment of post traumatic stress disorder, and even hospitalization and schooling in case of juveniles.I recommend rehabilitation for 80% juveniles crimes through rehabilitation.
Note:This is the reason why Mr.Altaf Hussain is not being arrested,cause Brits law has a precedence to pay the medical bills in case of prisoners abduction. Well, In Pakistan this example is exclusively linked up with up upper classes like feuds and politicians.
If you need more im ready.

[QUOTE]- gathered articles on uk prisons, US prisons then model prisons of Sweden and Norway. (again linked to previous prison point)[/QUOTE]
Ooo! Sweden and Norway are the model countries where crime rate is very low, they are indeed role model for the rest of the world.
Well in USA situation is squarely oblique because of racial factors(like Black panther movement) and Bush doctrine labeled as Patriotic act, I thought no need to mention one of the black hole of USA criminal detention, torturing and killing in the form of” [B]Guantanmo Bay[/B]”.Any ways history of USA is my favourite subject that I like the most in CSS exam.
[QUOTE]-imprisonment issues in Pakistan (over crowding, different classes, budget problems, sexual abuse, diseases, no segregation, paisa bolta hai thus drugs, mobile etc can be provided if you have the dough. Sometimes it is hard for me to differentiate prison from imprisonment. I am considering imprisonment is related to inmates and prisons to procedures and rules but I can be wrong. What do you think?)[/QUOTE]
I've no choice but to agree with you!:laugh:
[QUOTE]-prison officers, their education and training and relation with prisoners
-imprisonment and mental issues (Post incarceration syndrome)
-Rights of prisoners according to UN and Pakistan
-Women prisoners. (I have very little on them)
-Tried to find NGOs that work for prisoners. I found Dost, Sanjog, Society for Human Rights and Prisoners' Aid and a missionary society. [/QUOTE]
What you want, sorry did not got you correctly:oo

[QUOTE]
so what else? Is it all that there is? I am asking because well I did similar thing with police and its role and you were like [B]no acts[/B] are part of it and now I am not sure about anything. lol[/QUOTE].[/QUOTE]
Right now you have gotten why i mentioned laws are important to be studied if not altogether than lil bit.

I hope you will have the stamina to read all this stuff and criticize me where you think its compulsory.
or han itne lambe passage main mistakes ko avoid zrur krna.:blink

First of all, thank you so much for typing that all. It must have taken a lot of time and I am very grateful to you for this.

I see what you mean by studying police acts now.

The first portion of your post was interesting to me, I copied it to a word file. I have not studied police acts yet so I really appreciated this summary and analysis of it.
I fret over police vs army media treatment as well. It bothers me a great deal mostly because as a citizen I don't go around differentiating between martyrs or injured soldiers and policemen. For me they deserve same respect. There is a lot of privilege that army enjoys which our police don't. I just think that everyone should be treated the way they deserve. Give any institution too much rope and they hang you with it.
I am glad we think similarly here.

I did study imprisonment. I thought about what could be studied about it, googled those points and put them down in order to run them through you. I appreciate your input to them esp the juvenile angle that I missed or didn't pay much attention to. Don't worry about not getting it part.
I noted down the studies you mentioned. You are right about Swedish police and prisons. Theirs is the best system. I read in an article that when a person inquired the prison chief as to why inmates were getting such good treatments during their imprisonment time, he said, why? do you want a happy individual to join back the society or an angry depressed individual?
Compare that to 70% recidivism rate of central jail lahore.
The post incarceration syndrome was an eye opener to me. Many individuals after incarceration find it very hard to adjust to society. Most of the time while in imprisonment, the decision making power is taken away from them. They can't choose what to eat,how to dress or even when to wake up or sleep. Slowly and gradually they are made to leave their decision making skills and when they get out, the sudden inflex in choices intimidate them. Lots of frustration, lots of depression, the overwhelming sense of what is and what is not just gets them. This is of course just one aspect of incarceration. I read a judge's remark and it made me think a lot. In summary he was saying that we want to make them responsible by taking responsibility away from them. We want to them have good company and a good human by making them spend months with other criminals. He was very right.

A person who has visited Karachi central jail told me that there was a whole city inside with shops and houses and what not. There is a whole ecology system that works within those walls and of course corruption runs amok but it was interesting for me to hear. I thought to share it with you. Also a school was built near jail for kids with mothers imprisoned in jails. [url]http://www.dawn.com/news/1201001[/url] that was a great thing to read. I thought to mention it here as well. After reading so much negative stuff about prisons in Pak, this was like finding a sweet water well in the middle of a desert. I even got teary eyes because yeah it was that special. lol


Reading is all I do lately so don't worry about reading thing. lol.

I am going to go to section 3. I was supposed to start it 2 days ago as per my schedule but job got in the way. I will come back to police and courts after section 3. It will give me some break and a much needed fresh approach that I obviously need. Section 3 looks like it'll take some huge time too but let's see.

Well, its good that you got my notion.Sorry to say I have observed such a non serious attitude from many esteemed qualifiers that they believe that after qualification we are just superiors and that hurts me the most.

If you need any assistance feel free to ask me.
Moreover we invite the other aspirants to drop in their query.
Note: it must not be book or subject, but any good topic to be discussed here.Believe me we learn and clear each others consept that otherwise wouldn't be.

hi,
There was a question in criminology paper regarding criminal investigation.
[B]Enlist and discuss the principles of criminal investigation[/B]

I am preparing this point and I confess I don't understand, even after googling, what it means. So far what I understood is that I have to study the whole criminal investigation process from the crime scene investigation to the evidence securing and presenting in court and study all the steps with their proper principles and guidelines. So say I am at crime scenes, so principles would be regarding how to mark the area, secure evidence, proper storage of it and all the procedures and so on and so forth. Here is the link to further elaborate: [url]http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/csi/principles.html[/url] so Is this what it is?

and if it is what I understand than the question is rather lengthy, don't you think?