Economics for people with Non-Economics background...

[hjvd]

I want to take up Economics as an optional subject because I find it very interesting on a personal level and highly valuable due to its applicability in our lives.
I have studied Engineering Economics as I have an Electrical Engineering background so I am fairly comfortable with the basics of this subject.

Still I want some advice as to whether It is wise for me to opt Economics or not? Given I have only 5 months for preparation,will I be able to cover all topics with only fundamental Economics background?
How much time do you think I would require?
Can I cover the topics by going through 3-4 books or I have to go through some lengthy Master's level course?

Advice from people who have cleared Economics without a formal Economics background will be greatly helpful..

[hjvd]

No reply so far..... I guess I should take this "No you should not opt Economics without a formal background because it brings tears to the eyes of the very people who have a formal degree in it"

Any one cares to differ?

[Shooting Star]

Originally Posted by hjvd

No reply so far..... I guess I should take this "No you should not opt Economics without a formal background because it brings tears to the eyes of the very people who have a formal degree in it"

Any one cares to differ?

Don't be impatient. There are very few people who opt economics. If some relevant person come across your question, he will surly help. Meanwhile, why don't you try self-help? Explore the section. You might find answer of your queries. Here are some threads for your assistance.

http://www.cssforum.com.pk/css-optio...omics-not.html
http://www.cssforum.com.pk/css-optio...economics.html

[Ganja]

it is a very easy subject as tested in the CSS exams .. especially if you use video lectures from the great courses just download em via torrents or you can use khan academy videos.. i have seen the past papers nothing in them more difficult than the A-level economics at max ... even the texts used in the CSS are so basic and outdated... so use the following:-
1. The great courses also called TTC (the teaching company) download the video lectures via torrents
2. Khan academy (youtube) also available on torrents but the Macro economics section might not be complete
3. Schaum's outline also available on torrents and at Urdu bazaar

[Ganja]

you can also use the RedSpot A-levels Economics for practice

[Ganja]

and i checked the engineering economics material... it is the financial aspect of engineering projects.. i do not understand why it is called Engineering Economics.. it has very little do with economics

[noaman saleem]

Originally Posted by Ganja

and i checked the engineering economics material... it is the financial aspect of engineering projects.. i do not understand why it is called Engineering Economics.. it has very little do with economics

Thanks Ganja bhai,i am doing msc economics.have passed my 1st semester.wanted to opt economics but every one has negative comment on it.and please tell me are virtural university lectures helpful in understanding economics.and what about paper two,how to tackle it.books to consult.

[Ganja]

Please ignore grammatical and spelling errors

Choosing to study economics depends upon why you are doing it and what are your career goals
If you want a career in the field of economics then there are several options
1. Professor -- you need a Phd
2. Regular school or undergrad teacher -- you need a Phd or an Mphil or an MSc - higher the degree more the recognition easier to make money via tuition or university/school teaching
3. Brokerage house -- depends which department you want, if Research then Msc is sufficient but adding ACCA would help a LOT.. just check the job requirements of brokerage houses and also check their researches
4. Bank - Msc Eco is irrelevant (just check the job advertisements for banks) until an unless you hv a Phd from one of the the top ten unis is the world and even then limited job opportunities or too low level a job entry position for a person with a top ten uni Phd (because getting a job in Paki depends upon connections way too much) and a highly educated person without connections is nothing in Pakistan
5. Insurance -- Msc Eco is irrelevant -- Msc Math is better for risk modelling that is if Pakistani insurance firms use Actuarial models at all .. for example State Life has not renewed its Actuarial Models since the 80s so far as i know
6. CSS -- Msc Economics is also useless if your real aim is CSS .. if you are planning to do CSS then do your BBA or MBA and then go for CSS while revising the BBA or MBA stuff relevant to the CSS
7. Just studying for knowledge then go for it.. but do not think that it is the end all and be all of knowledge ... because after all Economics is just a pseudoscience compared to Natural Sciences .. to make Economics look scientific mathematical models were added since the 70s .. plus the Economics that one studies at top ten unis in the world is just not applicable over here.. just check the latest Nobel Prize Winners for Economics 2013 topic of research: "Trendspotting in asset markets"...(until and unless your studies' focus is in developmental economics).. this is because our economy is not heavily dependent upon its financial markets (except for the money market which is obvious) ... and also our financial markets are still at an infant stage ... KSE might have been the best 'performing' capital market but it is no where near the level of capitalization on the global scale nor is it sophisticated enough in terms of market structures and level of individual expertise .. what is applicable in Pakistan is development economics because we do not have basic needs fulfilled .. eg. power, water, food, etc

From purely an expertise level perspective it depends a LOT where you are doing your Msc economics from.. for example Pakistani universities are not worth it .. suppose you compare the Msc Eco Program at LUMS to the Bsc program at the top 10 unis in the world, the MSc Eco at LUMS can barely compete with it.. just go to the UOL International Programme website and check their BSc Intro to Eco sample past papers' examiner remarks

http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk...1002_exc12.pdf

however, PIDE might be a better option since it is an institute that specializes in Economics.. btw LUMS the pride of pakistan barely ranks in Asia (check QS Rankings, US news rankings, Times higher education rankings, ARWU rankings - subject rankings and overall university rankings are different) so you can understand how pathetic our standard is

and virtual university lectures such as Khan Academy and others it again depends where you are studying... generally the lectures regarding economics available online will help you with beginners level eco (BSc) if you are studying abroad at a good uni but if you are studying in Pakistan then you will find them useful at the MSc depending upon which text is being used in the university that you are studying in.. because a lot depends upon the level of mathematics you will be studying at the university because otherwise understanding texts from like authors such as Mas Collel, David Romer (which should be studied at the Msc level) and understanding Recursive Macroeconomics becomes too difficult

Now having bashed Pakistani education for what it is I will answer the other part of your question

the Paper 2 of CSS you can just use the books they have given in their syllabus for latest material
if you want more.. then check research papers published by the following these are uptodate:-

PIDE
Brookings Institution
Carnegie International Peace
Pakistan Society of Criminology
WHO
Asian Development Bank
OECD
foreign universities
US federal reserve
IMF
SBP
Finance Ministry and other websites that talk about pakistan's development
and also the book below will help
The Economy of Pakistan 2010 Edition
Revised and Updated
Khawaja Amjad Saeed

btw in the CSS examinations (i know there are people who disagree with me) the people i know have tried and tested using various techniques to answer the papers and every time when you write nonsense, making facts/figures out of the blue while filling pages and pages you pass.. but if you answer properly as it is done in universities worldwide you fail or just pass ... after all we are a nation that believes in the water fueled car

[Toru]

Originally Posted by Ganja

Please ignore grammatical and spelling errors

Choosing to study economics depends upon why you are doing it and what are your career goals
If you want a career in the field of economics then there are several options
1. Professor -- you need a Phd
2. Regular school or undergrad teacher -- you need a Phd or an Mphil or an MSc - higher the degree more the recognition easier to make money via tuition or university/school teaching
3. Brokerage house -- depends which department you want, if Research then Msc is sufficient but adding ACCA would help a LOT.. just check the job requirements of brokerage houses and also check their researches
4. Bank - Msc Eco is irrelevant (just check the job advertisements for banks) until an unless you hv a Phd from one of the the top ten unis is the world and even then limited job opportunities or too low level a job entry position for a person with a top ten uni Phd (because getting a job in Paki depends upon connections way too much) and a highly educated person without connections is nothing in Pakistan
5. Insurance -- Msc Eco is irrelevant -- Msc Math is better for risk modelling that is if Pakistani insurance firms use Actuarial models at all .. for example State Life has not renewed its Actuarial Models since the 80s so far as i know
6. CSS -- Msc Economics is also useless if your real aim is CSS .. if you are planning to do CSS then do your BBA or MBA and then go for CSS while revising the BBA or MBA stuff relevant to the CSS
7. Just studying for knowledge then go for it.. but do not think that it is the end all and be all of knowledge ... because after all Economics is just a pseudoscience compared to Natural Sciences .. to make Economics look scientific mathematical models were added since the 70s .. plus the Economics that one studies at top ten unis in the world is just not applicable over here.. just check the latest Nobel Prize Winners for Economics 2013 topic of research: "Trendspotting in asset markets"...(until and unless your studies' focus is in developmental economics).. this is because our economy is not heavily dependent upon its financial markets (except for the money market which is obvious) ... and also our financial markets are still at an infant stage ... KSE might have been the best 'performing' capital market but it is no where near the level of capitalization on the global scale nor is it sophisticated enough in terms of market structures and level of individual expertise .. what is applicable in Pakistan is development economics because we do not have basic needs fulfilled .. eg. power, water, food, etc

From purely an expertise level perspective it depends a LOT where you are doing your Msc economics from.. for example Pakistani universities are not worth it .. suppose you compare the Msc Eco Program at LUMS to the Bsc program at the top 10 unis in the world, the MSc Eco at LUMS can barely compete with it.. just go to the UOL International Programme website and check their BSc Intro to Eco sample past papers' examiner remarks

http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk...1002_exc12.pdf

however, PIDE might be a better option since it is an institute that specializes in Economics.. btw LUMS the pride of pakistan barely ranks in Asia (check QS Rankings, US news rankings, Times higher education rankings, ARWU rankings - subject rankings and overall university rankings are different) so you can understand how pathetic our standard is

and virtual university lectures such as Khan Academy and others it again depends where you are studying... generally the lectures regarding economics available online will help you with beginners level eco (BSc) if you are studying abroad at a good uni but if you are studying in Pakistan then you will find them useful at the MSc depending upon which text is being used in the university that you are studying in.. because a lot depends upon the level of mathematics you will be studying at the university because otherwise understanding texts from like authors such as Mas Collel, David Romer (which should be studied at the Msc level) and understanding Recursive Macroeconomics becomes too difficult

Now having bashed Pakistani education for what it is I will answer the other part of your question

the Paper 2 of CSS you can just use the books they have given in their syllabus for latest material
if you want more.. then check research papers published by the following these are uptodate:-

PIDE
Brookings Institution
Carnegie International Peace
Pakistan Society of Criminology
WHO
Asian Development Bank
OECD
foreign universities
US federal reserve
IMF
SBP
Finance Ministry and other websites that talk about pakistan's development
and also the book below will help
The Economy of Pakistan 2010 Edition
Revised and Updated
Khawaja Amjad Saeed

btw in the CSS examinations (i know there are people who disagree with me) the people i know have tried and tested using various techniques to answer the papers and every time when you write nonsense, making facts/figures out of the blue while filling pages and pages you pass.. but if you answer properly as it is done in universities worldwide you fail or just pass ... after all we are a nation that believes in the water fueled car

Sorry brother, I beg to differ, please bare with me for it is a comprehensive response...

Although I would agree with you in general on the overall marking/assessment paradigm which you highlighted, but not specifically, or on a Micro level as shall be more relevant.

This is a competitive examination, where one succeeds based on the intimacy of the intellectual seduction demostrated in the papers. The examiners hardly have time to breathe and therefore, given the amount of authority and discretion, can and will do away with answer scripts that does not please them--A situation not unprecedented, people end up getting Zeros every year!, you should focus on not giving them a reason to do that to you.

With regards to Economics, there is a specified approach to answering techniques

1. Diagrams
2. Mathematical Proofs
3. Intuition

With regards to CSS, we need to add and lay relatively more stress on additional points

4. Legitimacy of Content/Pertinent Answers
5. Presentation
6. Effective use of Black and Blue pens
7. Answer-the-Question!!

You indicated that your acquaintences did not end up doing well despite the ''Varieties'' of approaches they adopted, and to tell you the truth, it is Rightly so. Faced with immense scarcity of time during the examination and subject to intense pressure, candidates often regurgitate material (inefficiently) they have read some where, often leading to an abstract and open ended answers. It is not Varieties of approaches that examiners are looking for, but one constituting most relevant/important pointers, elaboration with proofs, legitimacy, diagrams (if applicable), explanation of your algebraic equations depicting relationships/correlations therein. In a nutshell, it is Coherence of your answers, so that once the examiners get to the end of it, they feel your answers are complete --albeit it concise.

Need I also remind you that the examiners are serving Professors. A Professor is one who has normally taught for well over 20 years, MOST of them holding PhD's. One can only imagine the command they may have in their respective subjects. Our people have a tendency to blame it on them, for their incompetency (some even go to the extent to declare them selves more qualified than their examiners!) We never admit our mistakes and don't work to correct our shortcomings...People tend to forget this is a Competitive Examination, this is how it is supposed to be, it is designed to fail the majority, so despite having erected the barriers, ones who manage to break through demonstrate ample testimony of their competency and hence, become a part of our glorious Civil Services.

You also pointed out that filling scores of pages results in a pass, I cannot completely verdict against that statement and would partially agree with you with regards to the relevance it holds in a Competitive Examination, but in the end, it's only a pass. I am sure everyone here aspires to make it at the top, no body wants to be the last man standing. Ask any of the toppers and they will tell you how they went about their papers, not to mention, ALL of them say ''It is NOT the Quantity BUT the Quality'' of you answers that matter.

[Ganja]

this is a very good discussion ... we need another thread for this topic though

"This is a competitive examination, where one succeeds based on the intimacy of the intellectual seduction demonstrated in the papers..."

Not by a mile is the CSS worth any level of intellect, I have seen the past papers and the texts being utilized, not challenging at all just useless dribble sadly, not to mention highly irrelevant... no wonder we have govt officers who are incompetent and I have known several of them very closely, i have even worked with them.. the typical routine is something like this 1. Start at 10am, 2. Read the newspaper 3. Tea with fellow officers or any visitors 4. Read a few docs 5. Go away at 4pm... hell some even go away from their offices whenever they please and come-by whenever they want to and the back office staff uses facebook .. btw in my worthless opinion there should be a 4 year semi vocational training for prospective govt officers you cannot learn public administration in a country like Pakistan via books.. the CSS material is in line the pathetic Pakistani BBA

"....5. Presentation
6. Effective use of Black and Blue pens"

there are few other things I have had ppl tell me, such as fold edges of the paper, use a highlighter, make the answer colorful ... nowhere on earth at any respectable standard are there any such useless requirements for answering.. one ink while answering challenging questions and that is all...

"...You indicated that your acquaintances did not end up doing well despite the ''Varieties'' of approaches they adopted..."

actually the papers in which they wrote nonsense they scored high and the papers in which they tried to follow the academic manner of answering, which they were taught at their respective unis (foreign well reputed ones), they scored far less in those papers

"....Need I also remind you that the examiners are serving Professors...."

Pakistani professors qualified from Pakistani universities are not worthy of being called professors by a long shot... I have personally had a professor tell me that he utilized the same research and just used different models and then got through his BSc, MSc, Mphil, and also would do his Phd in the same manner, while recommending me to do the same... I know these 'Professors' only too well so I just cannot agree with you, there was another who used to recommended one book and teach word for word from another book while saying that they were his own words...

yes i am against the Pakistani educational system and for good reason.. it is just quite simply NOT good enough.. because even our foreign qualified professors are from universities which are ranked in the 100 -200 ranking range in the subject these professors have been qualified.. there are only a few professors from the top universities in the world teaching at Pakistani universities

just my two cents