@rao rameez
page is not opening because of non availability of proxy service.
unfortunately I missed it.
but any way do you know worlds most peaceful state in world.
that is neither America nor Britain or any other secular state------
its VETICAN CITY and SWITZERLAND.
do you know why Pakistan has rifing terrorism and massive killings.
in addition to political affiliations major reason was non hangings of culprits.
Today situation is improving because terrorists are hanged and
Islam particularly emphasis on tit for tat principle I.e. death penalty in case of murder.
while in secularist countries it is absolutely banned.

now would you like to pay attention on imf.Tell me a solution how to pay billion dollar interest not original arrears as we(Pakistani)are heavily indebted.
I will inshallah see the video and than respond you.

Good new off-shoot of the topic.

You must watch the video otherwise...Have Zen Mate extension.

You have asked a General Question.

I will quote an excerpt from the Book authored by Shamshad Ahmad namely "Pakistan and World Affairs."
What perspective can be better then an old Ambassador of Pakistan.
I am nobody in front of him.

" Can the IMF salvage us? Yes, only if we change our governance patterns and opt for economic discipline and self-reliance. Every IMF programme for Pakistan called for,as it is bound to do under its Charter,redressing of our economic mismanagement and macroeconomic imbalances. No matter how stringent the IMF conditions are, they are for our own good and should be heeded with self respect and dignity. The alternative of going to individual countries shamelessly begging for money in the name of "friendship"is even worse than standing in Kalma Chowk and knocking every passing car's window for help."

Adding further he says,

" Our problems are those of pathetically poor governance,absence of the rule of law, endemic corruption, and non-existent institutionalised development strategy."

"The system that breeds corruption,tax evasion, kleptocracy, abuse of power , lavish governmental spending. a VIP culture, and violence and lawlessness will have to be rooted out from our body politic. We need larger cuts in governmental spendings".

He concludes saying

" We must return to genuine economic discipline before asking people to be ready to swallow the IMF bullet. Our problems are all at home. Their solutions are also at home, not in Dubai,Abu Dhabi etc etc...Let us be our own friends and focus developing our economic potential and capitalising on our geopolitical locations..."

I thought jahan itni Ilmiyat ka izhar horha he...Men bhi jhalak dikha hi dun thorhi si...

But it is just an off-shoot of topic...Not "The Topic".

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

Yet, I had decided not to intervene in your debate of "Muqaddmah" and "Theory of Evolution", and stuffs like that because I was sure they will throw the things out of the boundaries...When things can be solved with mere common sense, why we need to jump on proving 2+2=4...And I don't know why I again start replying...I'll try move apart.

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

I did not understand to whom you are mentioning
I am nobody in front of him.(explain him)
1.my question was
how you can move out of the wrath of imf.
if you are saying that fixing internal bolt is necessary( I mean internal reform)than definitely I agree but problem is this there is no survival without lending and borrowing.and after all international transactions take place in dollars.(see Bretton woods agreement) ratified on 1941.
my question is how can you move out of the wrath of imf in secularism.
(before answering this take a look on bubbling down of imf policy in Greece/austerity measures in Europe and Dr mahtir mohammads interview on globalization of war and a must read book
Globalization of poverty by Michael chossodovsky
and as recently as
23-3-15 when Christian e ligarde was declared as most brutal women of 21sr century.(because she has introduced revolutionary reforms such as
decreasing pension/covering deficit loss of Britain through inflating indirect taxes/ decrease budgetary allocation to health and insurance/for labour its decrease or keeping utmost effort to maintain wages at subliminal level/government borrowings in the form of surities will have higher face value and decreasing premium value of debentures and treasury bills as floating in the market.
remember developed countries don't withstand and where we are standing:;;:???

and what khurram hussain has quoted on February dawn newspaper.
The country can repay the debt and remains in imfr clutches forever.
its not off topic.imf purely works on the agenda of neoliberalism and neorealism.(an offshoot of secularism)
Tell me the solution as I want SOLUTION not mere statements.what one is saying and what other is opinionig.

Ok .I will return replying your post properly and will tell you a good thesis on all this.I am pre-occupied a bit for 1-2 days...Up till then you can see the video as well and related things.

I just quoted in the second post to avoid chain posts. As it's not allowed.

__________________
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have, who then am I?

and if the moderator finds this post abusive. please don't delete it. just edit the couple of words in it please

@nelblueblue, Rao Rameez

Salam

I don't know from where this discussion arrived here but i am going to do what i always do. confuse

the question about whether we can live without IMF can be answered if we try to analyse how IMF works.

first off IMF isn't alone. the complete troica includes: the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO.

so the WTO comes into a country and says that you can't export such and such thing as it does not fulfill international requirements. the only way you can do it is if you have a better infrastructure and that is going to happen if you have dollars.

then comes in the world bank and says that i have the dollars. take the loan or you are screwed.

then comes in the IMF and says that you can't handle so many dollars so here we are the monetary experts who are going to help you with that.

in the end, the country pays back the loan, the interest and and the fees as well. giving out loans is their business. they are like an international bank with nearly the same mechanism as the commercial banks. and banks run by and are successful by??? giving out loans na mere bhai and sucking out the life force of the borrower. i hope that puts things into perspective

the IMF also has a unique role of Coorecting the balance of payments problem. if a governement's expenditures exceeds its revenue then the IMF comes in to help with that.

now how to get rid of IMF?
one, taxes. we need to broaden our tax base and increase our revenue from taxes. but why don't people pay taxes? because they don't trust the government. so now that's a governance issue. but it is a bit more than that. we have a******* running our government. the only way i guess to get rid of them is through direct action. sorry but i have stopped believing in peaceful measures.

so how to get rid of IMF? let's go to the national assembly and whup some asses.

regards

Thanks god there is a person who isatleast understanding the functions of global economic institution
let me explain you first
the topic is religion vs secularism (a successor of secularist state)
my stance was :
secularism is just a false propaganda and solution to human problem lies in Islam (religion and deen)
I oppose secularism on the basis of following observation
New World Order (by destination a society where there is no god, all world resources must be kept within few hands that global war must be swing in to reduce world population and justify existance of secularist state like NATO and us in resource rich country such as Syria Libya and afghanistan
its aim is
1.godless society I.e. atheism and hedonism(I supported by mentioning that illuminaty sign is designed on American dollar and that Georg bush's ancestor was Rmesis-ll and he was the same person to whom prophet mosses by the will of god drowned to death.(he was atheist and secularist.because he separated religion of mosses from all worldly affairs.
3.9/11 was inside story and it has no link with Muslims but in fact a global fabricated lie was drawn on Washington table and than implemented on Muslim world.
4. for globalization of poverty secularists not theologists have established institution like imf ,wB and wto

I have written an essay on (imf : an authority to economic despotism and hegemony of new world order)
if you wanted to read it I will post it.

2.

Well, George W Bush was a very religious person who thought it was his religious duty to wage a war against Muslims. Isn't that so? Due to this religious motivation, he invaded Iraq and Afghanistan because he was on a crusade against the Muslims. There, it was this religious motivation that plunged the world into disaster. Hence proved, religion is a source of all the trouble. And since it was the secular Obama who refused to take a war to Syria and who pulled out American from Afghanistan, so secularism is clearly the solution to the problems of the world and a guarantee of a peaceful world. Don't you think so?

Also, Ramesses II believed himself to be a god, which clearly means that he was not an atheist but did believe in higher power and was a pretty religious person. Again, this man who created a lot of trouble did it out of religious reason. Again proved, religion is the source of all the discord, no?

Speaking of Illumanit and Freemasonry, do you know it's a requirement of induction in Freemasons that one should believe in a higher authority or in other words, God. No confessed atheist can be included in Freemasonry. And since Freemasons are the source of all the trouble in the world, this clearly proves that these religious people (they do believe in a God as per their requirements) are the source of all the trouble in the world.

As is evident from above, it's the religious people that have made this world a hell and we need to get rid of them, no? To make this world a peaceful place, secularism is the need and all the religious government are a conspiracy of the Freemasons (the religious believers) to plunge the world in religious wars and disaster.

P.S. Can you please give a conclusive evidence of Ramesses II being the ancestor of George W Bush?

I don't know from where people come and without probing the case....
Really sorry just use cut and paste story or edit copy system.
. I would like to say please visit and read all posts under the thread secularist state stated by Sara26.

for your info it was George bush father who proposed NEW WORLD ORDER.(a purely secluraist in mode)
and Rmesis -ll is ancestor of George bush just see
(The ARRiVALS)
it consisted of many recorded programs.(I have more than one source to authenticate it)
I think this will be sufficient enough to make secularist silence in terms of debate.
and free masonry and illuminaty is a religious based organization.(you seriously need to rethink about it)
since I am not in mood to repeat same thing again and again like suspended pendulum on single point.

But I do understand that it's an article of faith for Muslims (and religious fundamentalists in general) to lie and distort facts and to be completely oblivious of historical facts, science, and just about anything else, and then shamelessly claim to be in possession of the truth. Ignorance is the cornerstone of religious fundamentalism, as is amply evident from the thread started by Sara, and this one too.

Now let's have a look at your ignorance a millionth time.

First, you did not answer the issue that I raised. Freemasons, George W Bush, even this favorite of yours, Ramesses II, were/are all religious people. Which clearly and conclusively proves how destructive religious fundamentalism is. And I'm not even talking about the entire history of Abrahamic religious which is composed of nothing but naked bloodshed and debauchery.

Let's see what you have to say about New World Order, another favorite term of yours.

How is this "secularist mode" when it is clear that George W Bush was a religious man who was seeking to wage a crusade? Clearly, you are not only unaware of history, you are unable to read things. Please buy a grammar book for second grade and go through it, before you go through history books.

For your kind information, decades before George W Bush, it was Molana Moududi, who raised the slogan of "New World Order" based on Islamic principles. The dream being to conquer the entire world and make it slave to Muslims and establish the order of world on fanatic Islam as envisaged by Moududi (which has now become the Islam of modern-day Muslims). How shameful the designs of religious people are. Hmm? How about this?

Oh and I've seen this travesty of history called Arrivals. No, it doesn't give any proof that Ramesses II is the ancestor of Bush. Please give me a conclusive proof, past it here, otherwise don't blame me if I call you a liar (just like most religious people).

Go ahead. Past just one of these authentic sources here.

On the contrary, it merely reinforces my view that religious fundamentalists are as clueless about history, science, politics, and everything else as a five year old.

I told you the cornerstone of their belief. One needs to have a belief in God to be included in Freemasonry. Its doors are closed for atheists. Clearly you are either lying or were simply ignorant of facts (both characteristics of religious fundamentalists who have made this world a hell).

Unfortunately for you, I'm very much in a mood to show the lies that you have been spewing and the utter ignorance that is the hallmark of religious fundamentalists.

Instead of yanking about this and that, if you have anything to counter the issues that I've raised do so.

Also, I'm waiting for what you have to say about the facts that all your people that you are posing as "secularists" (Freemasons, Bush, Ramesses II lol) were religious. Do you have anything to say? Everything you have been shouting about and putting on secularism is a gift of religious people. Every single thing. How very shameful.

Have a nice day.