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View Poll Results: Honestly speaking, I want to join Civil Service because
its a lucrative job. 7 6.19%
it wields much needed power and authority. 32 28.32%
it gives greater opportunites to serve the country 43 38.05%
I love the way bureaucrats look. 10 8.85%
I have no other choice. 11 9.73%
its a respectable profession. 25 22.12%
its a prestigious profession promising a bright future. 38 33.63%
I am a talented person and my country needs my services in this field. 38 33.63%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old Friday, May 15, 2009
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Default @ Preshan Gul

Dear u deserve congrats for this useful post. you have painted bureaucracy and military organization as perpetuating British Raj. Perhaps dear u may not know that nation build on these two pillars. Arms forces r to defense our country and bureaucracy is to run affairs of State. You must go through Pakistan History that when our Muslims brothers migrated to Pakistan from India; it was only bureaucratic administrator that handled this situation. Pakistan, was with minimum resources of men and material.
Now, your question is why talented youth wanted to join the civil service? Dear, answer is very simple that talented person wanted to serve for their country. I agree with u that many engineers and doctors race in this competitive exam... But, the reason may that they can serve for their country more better then as being profession. Yes, dear, every men has right to earn a social position, but it does nt mean that they r hungry for bleak money.. In every society there r bleak sheeps... but it does nt mean that every css aspirant is ought to be a bleak sheep. Yes dear we r social animals and we have lust for social power... but dear power and authority is aim to eradicate social ills and evils from society.
You mentioned private sector that give u more opportunities for earning money... even dear u illustrate an example of watchmen. Dear, I think u should be first to set an example to being a watchman. That seems to me utopia.
Dear be optimistic. I agree with u that a watchmen is earning more that a 17-Bs csp officer... but, why u r here to be css-aspirant?????
Dear i totally agree with u that this nation want servants. Yes we are all servant of our beloved country. Never subjected to institutions whether military or bureaucratic... Yes, there may be individuals that malign the institutions.
In nutshell, i can only say that every individuals has right to earn his social position, prestige n power but for the welfare of this nation.. Without these u even can nt solve single problem even in their neighbours, home. So, dear one should be equipped with these powers for correct errors and eradicated social evils and ills from society. Take example of PSP, DMG and so on…. Can police officer can address social ills without power and authority???????????. On the whole your argument seems to me inconvenience and absurd. Be sanguine and optimistic.
regards
Faisal Ahmed Memon.
  #22  
Old Thursday, May 28, 2009
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Default Dear Brother!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faisalmemon
Dear u deserve congrats for this useful post. you have painted bureaucracy and military organization as perpetuating British Raj. .................................................. ..................................
.................................................. .................................................
On the whole your argument seems to me inconvenience and absurd. Be sanguine and optimistic.
regards
Faisal Ahmed Memon.
Thx for sharing your views on the topic under discussion but before commenting on any article you should keep in mind two basic aspects. First you have read the article and ensuing discussion on it completely and have comprehended it wholly, second, you have something different, something unique to share with the readers. The points that you mentioned in your post have already been shared and discussed and answered faithfully. By calling my article absurd you are forcing me again to clear that neither am I against the harbouring of desire for power nor I am against "earning of social position" in the society. What I wanted to point out through my article was the need to reorient the direction of preference of our youth towards serving the country rather than serving their egos. Admitted that all come in the civil service with the outward tall claims of serving the motherland but unfortunately end up in seving their coffers. My earnest plea for my fellow aspirants was to explore their hearts and if they find anything "suspicious" get rid of it as early as possible and prepare their minds and hearts for the noble cause of making our country more and more strong by our deeds and actions. Power is, if sought for the purpose of betterment, a valuable instrument for achieving goals and targets but keep in mind that it is not the end but is a means to achieve the targets of serving the country.
Anyhow thx for your comments.
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  #23  
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Default @ Pershan Gul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preshan Gul
Thx for sharing your views on the topic under discussion but before commenting on any article you should keep in mind two basic aspects. First you have read the article and ensuing discussion on it completely and have comprehended it wholly, second, you have something different, something unique to share with the readers. The points that you mentioned in your post have already been shared and discussed and answered faithfully. By calling my article absurd you are forcing me again to clear that neither am I against the harbouring of desire for power nor I am against "earning of social position" in the society. What I wanted to point out through my article was the need to reorient the direction of preference of our youth towards serving the country rather than serving their egos. Admitted that all come in the civil service with the outward tall claims of serving the motherland but unfortunately end up in seving their coffers. My earnest plea for my fellow aspirants was to explore their hearts and if they find anything "suspicious" get rid of it as early as possible and prepare their minds and hearts for the noble cause of making our country more and more strong by our deeds and actions. Power is, if sought for the purpose of betterment, a valuable instrument for achieving goals and targets but keep in mind that it is not the end but is a means to achieve the targets of serving the country.
Anyhow thx for your comments.
Dear Gul brother
Dear brother as for as your suggestions are concerned are acceptable to me. Dear, I have fully comprehend your article. I appreciated your endeavors to put the youth on multi pronged tracks to serve for their country. Nevertheless, the question is why???? Your dogmatic views can not be impose upon youth in general and doctors, engineers and other professionals in particular. In order to race in to the CSS Competitive Examination. All opportunities must be open to every one to serve their motherland. Either in the capacity of CPS or any other capacity.
The only argument that you have painted in yours article that the bureaucratic struggled only for their ends is seems to me specious rather than convincing. Yes dear, I endorse your views that some bureaucratic involved in indulgence and only plea for their personal interest and egos. Ego is personal matter of individuals; but, ego must be for noble cause of motherland. On other hand corruption is universal problem. The most developed countries are experiencing from this panacea. We need cure the patients not kill the patients.
We must root out the causes. Not to close the doors of being civil services officers. Our institutions needs reforms and must correct errors that causes corruptions.
To earn social dignity is right of every one. This is human nature. Neither international law nor Islam prohibited. I do agree with you brother that if power is for betterment; it is valuable. But, the aim to delegates powers to bureaucratic is aim to eradicate social ills and evils from society. And this is for the betterment of society.
This is my humble views. However, you may differ with me.
Regards
Faisal Ahmed.
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  #24  
Old Sunday, May 31, 2009
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Default

Quote:
Preshan Gul Frankly speaking it astonished me a lot to see the level of inability or unwillingness of you guys to comprehend my point. Frustrated by the overwhelming avariciousness that has encroached upon our society in recent times I just presented a simple observation that our young men are kindling their aspiration for CSP from three ‘Pzz’ rather than from the earnest desire of serving the country. I suggested the example of Doctors leaving their profession; which is otherwise considered very noble and lucrative in our society (though I personally consider every profession noble in its own capacity); for the sake of three Pzz. You may have repudiated my three P theory but you all, overtly or covertly, accepted my basic assumption and differed in details. I do not have any grudge against Doctors competing in CSS exams neither have I any “insecurity”(as one brother assumed in his post) but I can not, in any way, reconcile with the idea that an ASP maintaining status quo is better than a Doctor healing wounded and curing agonized. If the ideal is that by being CSP a Doctor would one day be able to alleviate the plight of millions of oppressed souls by virtue of his role as a policy maker or implementer, it really is a very laudable notion and should be appreciated but a deep look into the matter tells another story. When a Doctor leaves his profession for the sake of joining Civil Service he actually debases his primary profession. He considers it inferior and shows his dissatisfaction with his present lot. So I do not see any reason why after joining Civil Service, keeping in view his present unstable nature, if given the chance he wouldn’t switch to another profession that he has later come to know as better than a CSP. If he can leave his primary profession that he gave some of the best years of his youth and a lot of his mental labors why can not he leave his second profession. So can our poor country afford such wavering adventurists??? I wish our honorable Doctors joining CSS could lessen the plight of poor masses but, unfortunately, I couldn’t find a single instance of a Doctor becoming a Civil Servant and alleviating the plight of “millions” by his policy making in the 62 year history of Pakistan. I hope the present Doctors who desire to join Civil Service in the near future would do this marvel.

Another point raised by a brother in which he tried to quote lawyers and Bankers and other such professions with medical amazed me even more. Are you really oblivious of the fact that administration (which is what CSPs do) is directly related with law??? Do you sincerely feel that knowledge of economics has got nothing to do with administration????

My basic aim in penning down this article was to give the young aspirants an impetus to delve deep into their hearts and analyze the sources of their motivation. I sincerely believe that a young man joining Civil Service for the sake of power can not be, in any way, profitable for this country. I am sorry that my intention in forwarding the example of doctors to prove my point was completely misunderstood and some members tried to knock me down and my ‘gibberish’ angered them a lot. I respect their ideas and arguments sincerely and hope that they would continue to show me ‘the right path’ in the future too
Dear preshan gul, for every argument, there are two ways. one is superficial, the other is deep. u can observe a thing,for example, a cube,from its outer look and describe it every possible minute detail, u can follow from ur observation. But, Do u know it in entirety ? its internal structure, how atoms are linked with oneanother, how molecules ,if any, bond eachother.... ideally, even if u know all these things, u can not claim to be the 'cube' just because u know all details about it. rather ur observation remains completly subjective and objective.
There is definately a modicum of truth in your assumptions. But, these assumptions are not universal in nature. When you say , that you have not come across a single doctor in 62 years....who alleviated plight of millions. You r sweeping a generalization here. u shud watch ur words very carefully. not that other person might be offended but because ur own reasoning is deficient in facts and figures.
Secondly, Being a doctor is indeed very noble. But,where is noblity located on maslow theory of motivation?? i hope u wud ,for the sake of general knowledge go thru that theory.
for layman, it suffices to assume, that ur bodily processes are working in best possible condition for u to think effectively. We know, when there is even derangment of a single enzyme or gene function, or single chromosomal error like in the case of Down syndrome. the affected person becomes mentally ill.
In pakistan, specially, a doctor has to study for 7 years[mbbs+housejob+turn over period bw batches to assume residency] to get just a bachelor degree. this phenomenon is prevalent everywhere, but the people becoming doctors of tomorrow can not afford to go long periods. Then to get postgraduate degree u have to pass fcpsI , then apply for residency, again take test in any reputed hospital. and get enrolled in first year of pg. it takes approx another 5-6 years just to complete training of part 2 fcps. then u have to take exam, which most candidates fail. only lucky ones pass in their first attempt. But even if u pass in first attempt, if u hv a chance to visit market value of doctors in RS. an FCPS is hired at 30000 to 40000 RS. here i m not taking into consideration job resposnibilty. which includes night duties, double and triple duties which go for 48 hours in some instances!!
Now, compare a doctor, who has taken multiple tests from premedical time to post graduate degree. a simple sipoi in police has more respect than he has. in rural areas, u will not be able to recog bw a doctor and accussed in court of law,where a doctor out of his job has to produce a medical certificate....
the argument goes that doctors,even thou serving for a noble cause are not respected in our society.
A css officer, after just b.a degree, that too privately, can become a part of adminstration. that is not pitiable, because they are rulers in true part. but what is saddening is that a doctor whose ambitions are at their peak in university life see real face of society..... Who is culpable in our society,God only knows!
Same doctor, if he gets his degree from AKUH is treated differntly,nobly, than if he has done degree from other insititutes.
an mbbs doctor earns 5 thousand ruppees in rajputana in hyderabad, 12 thousand ruppees for alternate night in karachi, 40000 in multinational company. and 30000 thousand if he opens his shop!! Do u know what it means? we doctors are considered as labours.people buy doctors for low wages. same marxian theory!!!
Therefore, we know that there is surely alot of corruption in beauracy, but your talent is acknowledged. you are rewarded. ur ego , ur motivational demans are met with....
The problem is not as simple to be weaved into straight words mr.preshan gul. rather the causes that force doctors must be faced.
i think, on a larger scale it is with every proffesion. most talented students are either thinking of going to abroad to abandon their countries for good, or they are doing brown studies to pass competitive exams.
Those who are in business, are by far the best , they are satisfied with their business.
but people like u and me, and many other middle and lower middle class are caught in between a very serious predicament.
CSS seems to be our only hope.
prblems of corruption has crept not only in css, but in all fields. therefore it is better to serve in the field where ur talents are also cashed. corruption is a necessary evil in our society.
may God bless u and ur views
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Last edited by Mumtaz Hayat Maneka; Sunday, May 31, 2009 at 02:45 AM.
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  #25  
Old Thursday, June 04, 2009
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preshan Gul
Frankly speaking it astonished me a lot to see the level of inability or unwillingness of you guys to comprehend my point. Frustrated by the overwhelming avariciousness that has encroached upon our society in recent times I just presented a simple observation that our young men are kindling their aspiration for CSP from three ‘Pzz’ rather than from the earnest desire of serving the country. I suggested the example of Doctors leaving their profession; which is otherwise considered very noble and lucrative in our society (though I personally consider every profession noble in its own capacity); for the sake of three Pzz. You may have repudiated my three P theory but you all, overtly or covertly, accepted my basic assumption and differed in details. I do not have any grudge against Doctors competing in CSS exams neither have I any “insecurity”(as one brother assumed in his post) but I can not, in any way, reconcile with the idea that an ASP maintaining status quo is better than a Doctor healing wounded and curing agonized. If the ideal is that by being CSP a Doctor would one day be able to alleviate the plight of millions of oppressed souls by virtue of his role as a policy maker or implementer, it really is a very laudable notion and should be appreciated but a deep look into the matter tells another story. When a Doctor leaves his profession for the sake of joining Civil Service he actually debases his primary profession. He considers it inferior and shows his dissatisfaction with his present lot. So I do not see any reason why after joining Civil Service, keeping in view his present unstable nature, if given the chance he wouldn’t switch to another profession that he has later come to know as better than a CSP. If he can leave his primary profession that he gave some of the best years of his youth and a lot of his mental labors why can not he leave his second profession. So can our poor country afford such wavering adventurists??? I wish our honorable Doctors joining CSS could lessen the plight of poor masses but, unfortunately, I couldn’t find a single instance of a Doctor becoming a Civil Servant and alleviating the plight of “millions” by his policy making in the 62 year history of Pakistan. I hope the present Doctors who desire to join Civil Service in the near future would do this marvel.

Another point raised by a brother in which he tried to quote lawyers and Bankers and other such professions with medical amazed me even more. Are you really oblivious of the fact that administration (which is what CSPs do) is directly related with law??? Do you sincerely feel that knowledge of economics has got nothing to do with administration????

My basic aim in penning down this article was to give the young aspirants an impetus to delve deep into their hearts and analyze the sources of their motivation. I sincerely believe that a young man joining Civil Service for the sake of power can not be, in any way, profitable for this country. I am sorry that my intention in forwarding the example of doctors to prove my point was completely misunderstood and some members tried to knock me down and my ‘gibberish’ angered them a lot. I respect their ideas and arguments sincerely and hope that they would continue to show me ‘the right path’ in the future too.

Sorry Mr.Pareshan but it still sounds gibberish to me .....nobody asked u to play the "Big Brother"....it's a free country and everyone has a right to choose whatever path they want even if it's for the wrong reasons...by putting together a bunch of superficial, random and fancy words u still sound lost...so i think even u don’t know what u are talking about...if ur really concerned with the "plight of the poor" then i suggest u should abandon C.S.S and strive to get a M.B.B.S degree....if not then pls stick to ur own intentions and aims and let other's decide for themselves what they want out of their life.
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  #26  
Old Friday, July 10, 2009
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Default Corruption isn’t a necessary evil in our society my dear!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.G.AsgharMemon
Dear preshan gul, for every argument, there are two ways. one is superficial, the other is deep. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....
may God bless u and ur views
Thanks for sharing your views on this topic. Words coming from the mouth of a Doctor (that you apparently seem) on the issue of Doctors leaving their profession with the intent of joining Civil Service should be listened more attentively then that of other folks, for, they give us a chance to know the heart of an affected party. I have listened your views very open-heartedly and though your “two way theory” in which, according to you, one can observe some thing both subjectively and objectively at the same time has confused me a lot, I could extract the following main points from your whole post:

1. Obtaining a Medical Degree is an arduous, tiresome and time-consuming process.
2. After getting their degrees the young Doctors are hired on very low salaries against a very tough schedule of duties.
3. Doctors are not given due respect and even a Sepoy of Police enjoys more influence and power in our rural areas then a Doctor.
4. Since young Doctors do not get their due regard in our society they prefer to jump to the Civil Service which is a very prestigious profession in our country.

I wonder, in whole of your post, in which point you differed with me!? I delineated in my article “that our young men are kindling their aspiration for Civil Service from three ‘Pzz’ rather than from the earnest desire of serving the country”. By depicting the miserable condition of Doctors in monetary and social aspects and calling it a reason for deserting their profession you indirectly agreed with my point of view. I believe that basic thing is your commitment with your profession irrespective of the fact how people think of it. A Doctor in our society is deemed a messiaha and people think highly of him but in the recent wave of materialism our Doctors, unfortunately, lost much of their esteem by turning themselves into money-making machines. It is so saddening that we often hear about some mind-numbing incident of some rapacious Doctor refusing to operate upon some dying patient just because the relatives of that wretched patient couldn’t fill the coffers of the greedy guy.
Accepted that a talented person’s want to be admired and esteemed high in society is a natural desire but this self-centered motive shouldn’t be the primary one in choosing or switching to some profession. We are standing at a very critical juncture in our history. Our hapless country needs committed and ascetic officers who less care about their privileges and protocols and more concentrate on building our downtrodden nation on strong footings. Our energetic young guys came with tall claims of serving the country but, unfortunately, end up in perpetuating the plight of this miserable country.

Coming to your last point which agonized me most that “corruption is a necessary evil in our society” I can say only that may God encourage you to fight against this “necessary evil” instead of laying down arms before it. No doubt our society is rife with corruption and malpractices but corruption can’t not be consented as necessary under any conditions. Corruption is necessary for corrupt people not for the whole society. Being part of a department which is considered one of the most corrupt in our country I have experienced that people indulge in corruption because they covertly desire so. If you want to fight against the demon of corruption you can do so no matter how worse the conditions around you are. You just need two things: courage and patience. If we young guys will lay down arms before the old corrupt practices who will fight against them then????
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  #27  
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Default Csps seems to be much powerful than any other professional

To share little power that civil servent possess. They have much contacts in civil institutions and have sometime more authority than politicians.
  #28  
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Contenious Points with my commentry.

preshan Gul


your 3 P theory :

“Pzz”:
1.power,
2.prestige and
3 privilege.

i agree with these points. but that is not the issue i raised in my discourse. Three Pz is source of all 'flowing in' and it is 'inherent in the system' therefore it is giving rise to 'necessary evil'. Bro, just calm down, it is not ur theory, n u shud never take relief if one more person agree to ur theories...it is indeed a cause of concern, that it is the case, with other professionss who sustain blisters in their retina ,burn midnight oil, sstill fight with the system and succumb to its atrocities.

on a question of how civil servants got power u say :

In order to raise awe and fear among the masses for the purpose of stifling their desire for freedom, these officers were conferred immense powers and authority and were coroneted with such perks and privileges that they were looked on by natives as creatures of some other planet much superior in intellect and sagacity to them.
NOw if this is the case as u say, they were invested with infinite powers, then how can u blame doctors, who struggle on such meagre sums of money that its not just the slogan to fight off with necessary evil no matter what conditiions prevail. doctors spending 7 years on mbbs degree, then dealt with low grade sepoy in honor n respect on such footing is not only not tolerable bt also so much degrading, n insulting.

-So, in this background when a young man aspires to join civil service he is in fact yearning for two things: an unbridled authority and a ruler-like status in the society
that is i said its necessary evil. to eradicate it. inspiration is not enuf. constitutional changes shud be made, such changes r impoossible as statuss quo prevails, all money n power is used to sustain the system in workable conditions,under corruption.

1.When a Doctor leaves his profession for the sake of joining Civil Service he actually debases his primary profession
This is what i call sweeping a generaalization. on one hand ur system is replte with power, n any one is free to join it, on the other hand so much afflictions r endured by pooor docs. as if that is not enuf, in this country of ours, to be an fcps requires another 5 yers..then a pay of 30000 thousand if u r able to get it...the condiions r worsening day by day. we are unsure about our future. next besss thing for us is 2 abandon our country of orgin..soundss bitter? thats the reality my friend!!

2. So I do not see any reason why after joining Civil Service, keeping in view his present unstable nature, if given the chance he wouldn’t switch to another profession that he has later come to know as better than a CSP.

[COLOR="Blue" your argument cn be rendered less forceful only if it is claimed that one should serve his country t whichever capacity he is serving. n as long as law permits change of profession there is nothing bad in it. but i wont say any ov these things. cos i just say that is ur personal thinking. itss not found in reaal practice. [/COLOR]

3.If he can leave his primary profession that he gave some of the best years of his youth and a lot of his mental labors why can not he leave his second profession.
i told u the reason why its done

4.So can our poor country afford such wavering adventurists???
it is not the quesion of wheter our country can afford it or not...question is can u afford it? if not then change in the basic structe of constitition. so that all proffesionals r paid, served, n honored on equal footing ass its done in france n many other countries.

5.I wish our honorable Doctors joining CSS could lessen the plight of poor masses but, unfortunately, I couldn’t find a single instance of a Doctor becoming a Civil Servant and alleviating the plight of “millions” by his policy making in the 62 year history of Pakistan
back us up with facts. it is a generalization,even if u have examples!!
6.I am sorry that my intention in forwarding the example of doctors to prove my point was completely misunderstood and some members tried to knock me down and my ‘gibberish’ angered them a lot.
dear ur intentions r not misunderstood. cos u have said these things. ur attitudee towards doctors is seriously lacking in details, its based on personal whims.


some of the pointss extracted from your latest post


1.A Doctor in our society is deemed a messiaha and people think highly of him but in the recent wave of materialism our Doctors, unfortunately, lost much of their esteem by turning themselves into money-making machines.
it is responsibilty of government to open welfare hospitals. doctors r ryte in conducting their jobs. ur analogy is like this : ok mr. parkash ur work in this facttory is good. but we will deduct ur salary for poor this month. doctors r salaried persons who try to meet their ends. if u cnside doctorrs messiah, plz arrange also to fulfil their basic needss. Government z creating such conditions that poor r becoming poor and rich r becoming rich...so a doc working with them faces majority of poor, who himself is poor save he taaakes his fee whhch is his due.
2.It is so saddening that we often hear about some mind-numbing incident of some rapacious Doctor refusing to operate upon some dying patient just because the relatives of that wretched patient couldn’t fill the coffers of the greedy guy.
black sheeps r found every where.

3.Accepted that a talented person’s want to be admired and esteemed high in society is a natural desire but this self-centered motive shouldn’t be the primary one in choosing or switching to some profession.
do not blame the motive correct the cause bro

4.No doubt our society is rife with corruption and malpractices but corruption can’t not be consented as necessary under any conditions.
story of 'can not' n 'should not' sounds good. but 'what is' is reality.

5.If you want to fight against the demon of corruption you can do so no matter how worse the conditions around you are.
but how???? u seem to be a theortical philosopher.

6.You just need two things: courage and patience
there is enuf courage n patience in poor people. yet our cnditions r still same..
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  #29  
Old Wednesday, July 22, 2009
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Talking Lucrative Job

Personally I am attracted to join civil services owing to the prerogatives enjoyed by the bureaucracy. All you people must have read those flashy statements given by position holders of FSc where they state that they want to become doctors to 'serve' humanity...well later on perhaps by humanity they mean... only 'themselves'.

P.S. Civil Service at this forum is often called a 'lucrative' job which I believe is incorrect (If course followed is HONESTY), rather it is an enticing or tempting job.
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Old Tuesday, August 04, 2009
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Default My answer aint in the list !!

I wanna join this group just for "ABSOLUTE POWERS"
It's not like that I belong to a very rich background but I have no lust for money. I just want authority and command, as I think I have got managerial skills rather than functional.
Please correct me, If anything you think in my ideology is mischievous.
Thanks and regards!
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