I remained so occupied during last month thus couldnt manage time to sit and answer this thread in detail. Although late but it goes here.....

I respect your point of view but I have strong disagreement with it. I am surprised to see you defending all the policies of dictators. I know the so-called intellectual-journalists who blindly supported all the unscrupulous acts of Zia ul haq and declared him even “Ameer ul Momneen” but today they do not feel ashamed to publicly denounce his policies. Every one knows the factors behind mushroom growth of extremism and terrorism in the country. Now I would reply the points you have raised one by one.

Well sister I am just stunned to see that living in 21st century belonging to the educated chunk you are supporting dictators and associating them with Santa Claus. I have no comment over it because its your personal opinion.

I already kept a stance that Army is not the ruling partner but an institution working under political government and it’s the real beauty of democracy. As far as the sacrifices are concerned they are paid for it just like any other institution / department they have to do their job. Army is the only department enjoying over all 60% of the total budget. You must have heard about the sacrifices and death toll of police officers for the security of the country. Does it imply that they should also enter the power corridors? Atleast I cant. As institution I love Pak Army but can never support it as ruler. If you talking about lives then you should recall that Bhutto family has given their blood to the politics of Pakistan having no parallel in the history of democracy. Hundreds of thousand political workers have been killed by the military dictator especially during Zia Regime when MRD = Movement for Restoration of Democracy was started. Yes ordinary people given their lives even when Pervaiz Musharraf started operation in Balochistan and so many Muslims were sold to America as terrorist to earn millions of dollars.

The present political regime has started the operation in North with the consent of locals and vacated the place before starting operation. It’s the difference of having democracy even worst and dictatorship although best.

I am 100% agreed to your first point that Mr Jinnah incorporated these land lords and feuds just to earn victory in the election 1945-46. As Congress vowed to abolish fief system in sovereign India these feuds were left with no choice other then joining Muslim League to enjoy absolute rule.

I want to clarify that feudal lord is not the parallel term for politician. A feudal lord can be a political leader but its not necessary for a politician to be a feudal lord. So when I am discussing democracy and political win it’s more related to the real political leaders like J. A Raheem, Hanif Ramey, Mairaj Khalid and Mukhtar Rana. They are some of those politicians entered into the power corridors under the umbrella of PPPP belonged to middle class and served the nation to their fullest.

Would you like to know that who first taken the bowl of beggary in his hand? Sister it was a general, a military person, (self proclaimed Field Marshal afterwards) Mr Ayub Khan. (When I hear the name of the said dictator my blood start boiling as he was the one who publicly denounced and humiliated Bangali brethren and given air to the separatist emotions.) As it’s my personal emotion so I often avoid to publicly unfold it but this time your undue favour to dictators made me to say so. Though I believe that taking loan to oil the wheel of economy is not a bad omen. But when it is mis-utilized as under dictatorial regimes it caste a disastrous impact upon the economy. IMF loan has increased considerably during Musharraf regime although he earned billions of dollars across the globe on the sad calamity of 8th October 2005. As far as the current government is concerned they are asking for aid not for the loan. You should appreciate their efforts in winning the confidence of international community for providing aid. Friends of Pakistan, Kerry Lugar Bill and tripled EU aid are the examples of it.

First of all I would like to clarify that you have intermingled the term army and military rule (dictatorship). I take both as two different terminologies because for me army is an institution just like police, Wapda or Railway services. Now lets come to the actual discussion.

Military supported militant groups to wage Jihad in Afghanistan and Indian held Kashmir. No one can deny the fact that militant groups like Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Jayshe-e-Muahammad etc were trained and nurtured by ISI and they have accepted it publicly on Media. Even they claimed that the Jihadies who have put our country on stake and played havoc are trained by ISI so they are our own people and we should respect their emotions and try to resolve their grievances rather fighting with them. These are the wordings of General Rtd Hameed Gul (Ex DG ISI). Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan was established in 1982 under the rule of a dictator Mr Zia-ul-Haq, that germinated sectarianism in Pakistan. Klashinkov culture was sprouted in Karachi by the said dictator to curb the political power of PPPP in Sindh. I hope all these facts would help you to develop a link between dictatorship and terrorism / sectarianism.

When I had exemplified the names of sons of generals I mean to convey that you can not restrict wealth addition to politicians only rather its the very characteristic of army rule too. Yes you are very right that it would be hard for me to form a list of army generals accused of collecting wealth by looting public money. And your say well justifies the beauty of democracy and political governance where you can hold them accountable for their mis-deeds. You might have heard the case of General Mansoor-ul-Haq who looted billions of rupees but no one could make him to face the music due to his military rank. He confessed his crime but was set free after paying the fraction of looted amount. Its only one example there are many generals who made properties in UAE during Musharraf regime but their corruption is camouflaged under their might. You talked of hundreds of example of politicians looted money and its known to every one because NAB has registered cases against them while the prestigious army has an exemption. You may have read about the list of those who have written off their loans…? Most of the generals abused their authority to write off their loans but they may not beget punish for it.

I appreciate the sacrifices and struggles rendered by our political class for sake of democracy in Pakistan. We are idealists, and want angels to rule here. But it happens nowhere in the world. It is accepted fact (even dictators accept) that democracy with all its flaws is the best system of governance. Democratic institutions never establish over night, it take decades to germinate and then flourish to fruit .Our politicians are not worse than those of India but difference is continuity of system that has made India a great power of the world. India is prospering by leaps and bounds in spite of being a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural state. The sole reason behind this unprecedented success is Democracy. Contrarily, we could not remain united inspite of having strong religious bond amongst the federating units. It is only because here we never let the democracy to flourish rather welcomed atrocious attacks and awful conspiracies to derail the political process.

I would like to add the words that I had said.

Well I wasn’t talking of USA rather I was pointing to the issue of nuclear proliferation that was proved internationally. Pakistan had helped North Korea and Iran by providing centrifuge. You would be happy to know that this manly move was taken by the great ISI under the rule of a dictator General Musharraf. I hope you would have taken my point now.

USA is not the only stakeholder for nuclear proliferation rather it is against the humanity and international peace. It’s the time when wars are fought on economic grounds without rocketing human toll. USA is the signatory of NPT (Non Proliferation Treaty) and from that time they are not engaged in selling of weapons to any country but for the use of security.

I don’t know which point you are referring here but I want to clarify my stance and its in the favour of democracy. I believe worst democracy is better than best dictatorship. I am in the favour of this democratic government and want them to complete their five years. No question arises for disfavoring democracy atleast to me.

Here I wont comment because I believe it’s the time when wars are not fought at borders but on economic grounds. Super powers are making hard to win the economic battle. You must be aware that when Soviet Union was disintegrated inspite of being abundant in arms they lost because were lacking growth on economic grounds. America being highly empowered economically was able to make it possible.

Well sister Pakistan joined SEATO and SENTO during dictatorial rule that make the image of Pakistan as puppet state of America. Mr. Bhutto was the political leader who broken the ice by changing the lines of foreign policy on the concept of bilateralism. Yea if you have suggested the name of Iran for appearing as the only Islamic country having courage to see eye to eye with bullies I must have honoured your views.

Let me clear I am not a fanatic. I am proud to be a Muslim first and Pakistani second. I don’t use emotional spectacles for seeing through political matters especially when they are related to national sovereignty. I have the ability to read between the lines and unfold the media propaganda that is encashing human emotions with their enchanting slogans. That all means when I am discussing issues it has nothing to do with patriotism. I am as Pakistani as you are.

Now lets come to the point I admit USA have committed mistakes but at the same time we should not ignore the good deeds of American society having prime objective of services to the humanity.

I don’t believe anything blindly. I criticize America’s role in Palestine crises, but at the same time I condemn the atrocities of china Govt on Muslims of Sink yang. I condemn American policy of supporting dictatorship in Pakistan during past years. And at the same time I appreciate USA and the entire western world for accommodating and absorbing millions of Muslims in their societies when our own rich MUSLIM COUNTRIES have no opportunities for those who lived and served their countries even for more then 30 years. Western world has opened the doors of knowledge to student of poor world including Pakistan under the banner of scholarships. Tell me honestly who reach first when some natural calamity takes place here in Pakistan? No doubt the USA.

I would like to sum up with some prominent facts that are known to all of us. We lost a part of federation after 13 years of dictatorship. Today what is happening in Baluchistan? We are harvesting the fruit of Musharaf’s mayhem. During East Pakistan crises, dictators (both Ayub and Yahaya) put Mujeeb ur Rehman behind the bar. He was declared traitor but facts emerges ultimately. We should have the courage to confess that our army inflicted atrocities on Bengalese. They were denied of their political rights. We had repeated same mistake in Baluchistan and it was by none other then a military ruler.

Pakistan is 62 years of age and politicians were the custodian for a very short time while compared to her age.
11 yrs bureaucracy
33 yrs military take-overs
18 years political government

The longest political government is of 5 years and it was once only in the time of Bhutto that has given real strength to the Pakistan. All other governments were of very short period of almost 30 months or less.

The shortest Marshahallah was of 2 years while all other occupied the country for more then 9 years.

I believe democracy is the only way to survival of Pakistan especially the survival of federation. Democracy is not in its ideal conditions but if the system continues and no dictator prepares to intervene we would be having better tomorrow. It happened every where in the modern world. This time we have to give the full share to the government and then it would be justifiable to bring them to books. It is so simple that you cant expect a student to score 100% when you have snatch the paper before the given time frame. There are the students who initially work very slow but after some time gain momentum so full time should be available to them. Cricket team cant win the match of 50 overs after playing just 20 overs and even its unjustifiable to expect so.

You have made an emotional attack here but still I would answer it. For me there is no parallel of Iqbal when it comes to the poetry. I myself believe Iqbal as stalwart leader. I have read Iqbal and you can have a detailed discussion with me about his poetry and personality. You would find me argumentative and analytical and your myth of having a distance from our literary personalities isn’t suit well to me. First let me rectify the verse of Iqbal that is wrongly quoted in your mail.
Jalal-e-Badshahi ho ya Jamhori tamasha ho
Juda ho deen syasat say tu reh jati hay changezi

Iqbal has said at one place that,

Azadi-e-afkaar hay iblees ki ejaad


I hope you must be agreed to this statement as well.

I would be discussing Iqbal in next sitting

Plz all this is an analytical discussion based on opinion and have no offense. I welcome contrast opinions.

@ above
Sis im short of tym so i ll be v brief dis tym. u seem 2 b intrested in stats. i wud lyk u 2 go through da stats of all da dictatotship regime nd democratic regimes. u must be gud in accounting so check da ecnomics stats especially as u r believer of rule of economy in contemporary world nd also da infrastucture work.

I neva heard a dictator saying throughout his regime tht all the mess is due 2 past democratic regime. just cut it out PPP. we have had enough of dis crap.

Musharraf stayin in posh area of UK!!! admitted!! but if u r gud in accounting plz be honest 2 say that personal corruption of mush n zardari dun match even on 1:10!! or shd i give details of Mr Zardari wealth.

Ok we might all be alien 2 dat. let come 2 a common man. Go 2 professionals of pvt sector. ask them which era waz better. Zardari or Mush.
Go 2 a common man smwhere in ur neighbour seeking a govt job. There were no advertisement of an ASI seat in 8 lacs, an SDO seat in 4 lac as blutant as now. dis aint some media report. it story of either my direct acquaintees.

Go through the real causes of Atta ndd sugar crisis. Thts another gift of pk democrats.

Comin 2 intl arena. go through the history of all world'z leading economies. wen did & under vot system did they set up da launch pad fr dere take off.

Lastly i agree 2 u tht democracy z a gud system but wid certain pre requisites & un4nately we as nation 2 day dun have them so western democracy z nt 4 us atleast presently.
Someone rightly pointed out tht if democracy z allowed 2 flourish a decade or two may be it ll sort it out rightly nd things wll be smoother n real leadership ll emerge out. Basically talkin of evolution of democracy as has happened wid world leading democacies BUT MY DEAR FELLOWS "MAY BE THOSE NATION CUD AFFORD 2 EXPERIMENT IT AT THAT TYM BUT IN CONTEMPOARAY WORLD WID ALL THE INTL CONSPIRACIES GOING ON IF WE ARE 2 GIVE 2 DECADE OF RULE 2 SUCH PEOPLES MAY BE WE LL HAVE REFINED DEMOCRACY BUT(GOD FORBID) NO COUNTRY 2 IMPLEMENT THAT "!!

So i guess we need nt evolution of democracy but revolution of democracy wiping off all the sleazy stuff

Very much my personal view. Anybody can differ!!!!!!!

---

one more thin

@ East pk issue
This issue was started nt by any dictator but ur own political leadership. issue was mainly linguistic nd who was 2 declare urdu as natl lang wen majority(EAst pk) was against it. was it some military dictator??. nd if u can plz go back 2 result of 1951-52 elections of east pk tu u might get knw k conceptually speakin dey had den pronounced thier seperation. Nd for me seperation of east pk was destined wid thousand of miles of hostile enemy territory in between we cud never keep it intact. it was just a question of wen!!!!! get ur facts right

@ balochistan

i guess first martial law was in 1956. what b4 dat hindered ur POLITICAL leadership 2 even declare it a province. Neglected it was till 1956 or remained so n comin 2 70's. Vot great did Mr Bhutto 2 pacify them we all knw that. again a political democratic govt. If operation was (so called) inevitable then how come it becomes atrocity in Mushi era.Den again throgh da whole 90's
u had democracy. Vot gud it did 4 balochistan??

__________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

You were not born a winner, and you were not born a loser. You are what you make yourself be.

Given the overwhelming powers that Zardari had like

Power to pardon (article 45)

Right to require cabinet to reconsider decisions (article 48)

Power to dissolve national assembly (58 2a) in case of no confidence movement against PM

Power to unilaterally dissolving parliament (58 2b)

Right to refer bill back to parliament in case of disagreement ( article 75)

Power to promulgate Ordinance (artcile 89)

Executive authority of federation (article 90)

Power to appoint ministers, ministers of state (article 92,93)

Power to Appoint Attorney general

Power to appoint Governors

Governors on caretaker government (article 105)

Power to constitute NEC (art.156)

Power to Constitute NFC (art. 160)

Power to appoint Cj of supreme court and other judges (art 177)

Power to appoint chief election commision of pakistan

Power to appoint chair and members of CII

Power to issue proclamation of emergency

Power to appoint Chairman of FPSC

Supreme commands of armed forces

Power to appoint chairman joint cheifs of staff and services cheifs

Sixth shedule

.......
....
..


I will not hesitate for a moment calling him Despot and Dictator

All military Rulers were much better than these so-called democrats
And dont forget Pakistan was the 2nd most corrupt country in 90s according to TI when these democrats were in power.

__________________
Whatever mind can conceive,it can achieve - W.Clement Stone

WASHINGTON: The US House of Representatives has authorised $1.5 billion annually in non-military aid for Pakistan over the next five years tied to progress in fighting terrorists.

The assistance for Pakistan was incorporated in a massive $1.1 trillion US appropriations bill passed on Thursday. Congress also approved $2.611 billion in economic and development assistance for Afghanistan in the next fiscal year, which starts in October.

Separately, the US Congress has also endorsed $1.6 billion for Pakistan under the Coalition Support Fund for the next fiscal year. The CSF is used for reimbursing Pakistan for expenses it incurs in fighting terrorists along the Afghan border.

Besides, the US is also providing $700 million for the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Capability Fund during 2010. The programme is dedicated to bolstering Pakistan’s capability to combat insurgents in Fata.

Thus, Pakistan will receive a total of $3.8 billion from the United States as military and non-military assistance during the next fiscal year.

The measure that brings $1.5 billion of non-military aid has been the subject of intense discussions between the Obama administration and key lawmakers. A version of this measure is still pending in the US Senate, which is expected to endorse it this weekend.

Called the Pakistan Enduring Assistance and Cooperation Enhancement Act, the measure is commonly known as the Kerry-Lugar bill and would also include an initial $300 million, and more in subsequent years, to help Pakistan fight the extremists.

The House measure is designed to strengthen Pakistan’s democratic institutions, judicial and educational systems, and funnel assistance to agriculture and rural development and support access to education and development for women.

In addition to the $1.5 billion in annual economic aid, the House measure authorises $300 million in 2010 to create a new Pakistan Counter-insurgency Capability Fund to help the government fight extremists, with additional allocations as needed until 2013. Another $400 million is included in a separate war funding bill, making a total of $700 million for the fund.

However, assistance provided under the Kerry-Lugar bill could stop unless the US president annually certifies that Pakistan is making progress in the war against extremists and is cooperating in nuclear non-proliferation efforts and in dismantling nuclear supply networks. And all aid must flow through an elected civilian government.

The language of the measure was modified in the face of objections from the White House and Pentagon. Under the measure, $1.035 billion will be allocated as economic support fund for Pakistan while other expenditure heads include health, law enforcement and security.

The US will also provide $268 million of foreign military financing to Pakistan during 2010.

__________________
Sweat in peace will lessen the blood in war.

WASHINGTON: The US House of Representatives has authorised $1.5 billion annually in non-military aid for Pakistan over the next five years tied to progress in fighting terrorists.

The assistance for Pakistan was incorporated in a massive $1.1 trillion US appropriations bill passed on Thursday. Congress also approved $2.611 billion in economic and development assistance for Afghanistan in the next fiscal year, which starts in October.

Separately, the US Congress has also endorsed $1.6 billion for Pakistan under the Coalition Support Fund for the next fiscal year. The CSF is used for reimbursing Pakistan for expenses it incurs in fighting terrorists along the Afghan border.

Besides, the US is also providing $700 million for the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Capability Fund during 2010. The programme is dedicated to bolstering Pakistan’s capability to combat insurgents in Fata.

Thus, Pakistan will receive a total of $3.8 billion from the United States as military and non-military assistance during the next fiscal year.

The measure that brings $1.5 billion of non-military aid has been the subject of intense discussions between the Obama administration and key lawmakers. A version of this measure is still pending in the US Senate, which is expected to endorse it this weekend.

Called the Pakistan Enduring Assistance and Cooperation Enhancement Act, the measure is commonly known as the Kerry-Lugar bill and would also include an initial $300 million, and more in subsequent years, to help Pakistan fight the extremists.

The House measure is designed to strengthen Pakistan’s democratic institutions, judicial and educational systems, and funnel assistance to agriculture and rural development and support access to education and development for women.

In addition to the $1.5 billion in annual economic aid, the House measure authorises $300 million in 2010 to create a new Pakistan Counter-insurgency Capability Fund to help the government fight extremists, with additional allocations as needed until 2013. Another $400 million is included in a separate war funding bill, making a total of $700 million for the fund.

However, assistance provided under the Kerry-Lugar bill could stop unless the US president annually certifies that Pakistan is making progress in the war against extremists and is cooperating in nuclear non-proliferation efforts and in dismantling nuclear supply networks. And all aid must flow through an elected civilian government.

The language of the measure was modified in the face of objections from the White House and Pentagon. Under the measure, $1.035 billion will be allocated as economic support fund for Pakistan while other expenditure heads include health, law enforcement and security.

The US will also provide $268 million of foreign military financing to Pakistan during 2010.

__________________
Sweat in peace will lessen the blood in war.

First of all, you will have to refer to my post earlier to figure that I am not against ‘democracy’ in principle. I am against the sham that is being fed to us in the name of democracy. The phenomena is just not practiced correctly in any part of the world, USA, UK, Japan, you name it. The way modern man has known democracy is highly flawed. It is a scarred version of the original idea. When early Greek philosophers had presented this ideal, it was not meant to be practiced like it is today. They had presented a concept where democracy would be present within the scope of the learned men of their society- not every Tom, Dick and Harry. Ill repeat here that Allah also ordains a similar pattern for his people to follow.

What we see as being followed today is a mirage to keep us all happy and good. So that opposition to the elite is not brought forward. So that revolutions do not hinder the goals of the same elite. Decisions that ‘really’ matter are not given to us to be taken. Whether a country should or should not go to war with a perceived enemy, is seldom decided by the people. In the US a very recent reflection of this was seen when the health bill was not passed by the legislators owing to logic-less arguments against it. If passed, the bill could provide for free health care for Americans. But the background scenario was that the health insurance tycoons had lobbied with some senators against this bill- which would obviously damage their profits. Bush administration lied to America a whole 8 years- America that is the torch-bearer of democracy. And yet, nobody took action against him and his henchmen in the aftermath. Presently, in the UK, there is an ongoing inquiry into Britain’s inclusion in the Iraq war- and yet again, Tony Blair is found lying to his nation. So where is democracy now? In my opinion, and the opinion of a lot more intelligent, older and wiser people- democracy is all about rhetoric. It may sound good on paper and in a debate- but it fails to a great extent in the real world- because it is too good to be true.

You’ve displayed surprise on the issue that I being a 21st century woman, believe in dictatorships. Every idea that is new is not necessarily noble . Cloning is a new idea, but it cant be practiced on humans because of its potentially devastating effects.

I was on the other hand, astonished to read your post where it says that ‘the army is paid for its job’ just like any other institution. Do you know how much the NCO’s are paid? Do you know how much a commissioned officer of the rank of captain earns? For people like me and you perhaps, it equals our utility bills for a month. And then unlike any other institution, men in the military sacrifice their sleep, luxuries, comfort of family and lives- and the motivation behind it all is not money-they can get better pay elsewhere in private sector- but the love for ones country which keeps them going. Your army enjoys 60% of the total budget because it needs weapons and training to face its enormous enemies within and beyond as well as provide housing, food, education and medical for military families who otherwise wont be able to afford any. So I think its justified. You cannot compare the efforts of a poor NCO in a battle and Bhutto family. Other than ZA Bhutto himself, I don’t think the rest had intentionally sacrificed their lives for the nation- they were wasted due to other factors which are not in the scope of this discussion. I seriously have no answer for medias sudden glorification of Benazir Bhutto in the wake of her death. As another human life killed brutally, its sad. But she was by no means an asset for this country because she took away from Pakistan so much to make her own.

I never really get what they mean by “Worst of democracy is better than best of dictatorship”. I mean isn’t the statement so self-contradictory? What makes a democracy worst or bad? The fact that people aren’t getting what they need. They aren’t getting their rights. And what makes a dictatorship best or good? That even if it’s a one-man show, people get their rights and their needs met. Then why is still a mock democracy better?

There are misconceptions in people’s minds that the present government is responsible for ordering an operation in the north. Our minds are feeble, and memories weak. A full-scale operation had first commenced during Musharraf’s regime in 2007. Smaller units of combat forces had been sent in the region even earlier than that. However it was the same politicians (democratic leaders) who had attacked the government’s measures then and there was a huge dramatization of events in the media. The same elements criticized the operation saying that innocent civilians are being killed. Ahh, but when the threat came to their doorsteps in the form of a video of woman being lashed and stories of horrors committed by talibans in swat- it was only then that the whole nation suddenly realized the wisdom behind the operation. How short-sighted!

Your equation is that a politician doesn’t have to be a feudal lord. First, the names you have taken are exceptional cases- there aren’t many. Second, all of them had been introduced by ZA Bhutto- a man who had been elected democratically but whose inspiration were Hitler, Napoleon and Machiavelli- all dictatorial. That political genius of a man understood the importance of able men. Benazir, his daughter however, dropped many of her father’s contemporaries like hot coins. In fact ZA Bhutto himself got rid of many such men during his early political days- for which he is rightly criticized. Third, except for Mairaj Khalid who was appointed as only a caretaker PM, the rest couldn’t come to important ministries or the premier’s office. So a good 95% of our current political leadership is feudal in disposition. And anyways, in a democracy as the term suggests, the majority of the house wins a debate. Your majority- is corrupt and not to mention, uneducated (this doesn’t refer to a qualification but acumen ).

I know very well that Ayub Khan was the first man to go to IMF for loans- but that mistake can only be forgiven once. The decades afterwards and IMF’s implications on them for Pakistan were reason enough not to repeat the same blunder again. Furthermore, where does all this money go whether in the form of aid or loans? During the wheat crisis, Zardari ordered 5 full ship-loads of wheat for import very early on. However, the crisis went on deepening even though it should have simplified. That man sold off the wheat abroad for some more dollars. If this is what democracy gives me- I’d hate to say this- they can make wreaths out of it for decoration instead. During another such democratic phase, Nawaz Sharif asked the nation to pay off the country’s debt by contributing as much as they can. Why then, do we still have an enormous debt? Where did it all go?

I have already answered your problem concerning nurturing of jihadi groups by the ISI. If you cannot understand a geo-strategic partnership made by the ISI (albeit not really wanting it) in order to preserve more intense issues of Pakistan, then I suggest you go and read more on the subject of Afghan-Soviet war and Pakistan’s role in it. Read American/British authors, many of whom will present the same ‘doctrine of necessity’. The ISI is rated one of the top 5 intelligence agencies of the world as far as operations and strategy go. It is not a crazy teenager-run frat house that likes undertaking unnecessary adventurism. These people are better than CIA and RAW both of which have had plenty of stupid operations to their credit. Sometimes you have to let go one smaller issue than create a much bigger one. Think opportunity cost. Remember Ojri camp? By now, most agree that the Pak army had to blow it all off , an incident that created a lot of casualties and damage to property- but think of what could have happened had USA’s audit team actually come in to find their weapons/ammo haywire. Due to such incidences we tend to wipe out military rule as bad and unworthy. But do you know what havoc can a democratic, weak government do for Pakistan, by trading its interests for some bucks? Some Generals do take money from the west, but few have traded Pakistan’s sovereignty for it. Musharraf probably did take a lot of money during his tenure, but has anyone pondered over his sudden downfall, and evacuation. The reasons are very complicated. Many understand it to be the fact that he was double-crossing the Americans and in turn, they had it figured out. The Americans asked Kiyani to intervene and get rid of him ASAP, to which he had to comply because nevertheless we are a weaker nation, and cannot afford to take up stands on every issue. My issues with Mushy are that he had enough time and power to improve the lot of Pakistanis yet he didn’t.

General Mansoor-ul-Haq atleast paid back some portion of the money. Ever heard of a politicians giving back looted money? By the time I am writing this the NRO case verdict has come into play. Good riddance. But then who are the petitioners of NRO case? Ex-bureaucrats mostly. Again the establishment is running the game. I cant get myself to believe that retired bureaucrats suddenly feel the plight of their countrymen and are taking action out of their own initiative- unethical measures like NRO have been taken by governments in the past too.

No, we don’t expect angels to rule here. Leaders like other people have issues. ZA Bhutto actually felt for his countrymen I think, yet he had flaws like personal vendetta and political victimization. But generations after him have been able to cash upon his aura only because he did something for this country in whatever short time he had. People remember him for his anti-Western stances as well as developmental programs- some got the chance to materialize, while others were atleast put on paper. This is why, it is sad that Benazir, who had the best of education and although a lot lesser capability than her father, but nevertheless could have done something substantial for this country. Even if democracy is the solution but cannot thrive overnight and takes decades- sweetheart we don’t have time for experimentation here. Our country is in dire straits, and needs someone who can take stiff yet quick action. We don’t have any democratically correct leadership in vision at the moment (although I do feel that if we have given chance to other losers, we might as well try Imran Khan at some political level). For the rest, I am not convinced with your arguments for democracy in India as the reason behind their success.

About nuclear proliferation, yeah it would have been a great utopian world had nuclear arms not been an issue. But they unfortunately are. And more powerful nations cannot intimidate weaker ones through the farce that they spread. You’ve said that USA doesn’t sell weapons to any country except for security- I am amazed, why else would a country want to own weapons- its all in the name of security my dear. It keeps selling weapons to India directly or indirectly through the Israeli channel.

Economic wars. All right I agree here that we need to become economically independent. But first, that’s not all, because strong nations are military mights as well. So we need to be ready for an offensive from any side, for God-knows we have enough enemies. And in the end, throughout history, great powers are only those that have the ability to subjugate enemy nations, and that is the idea behind past conquests and present wars. I am in favor of peaceful conquests if the enemy allows that-failing, an offensive becomes due. You and me don’t decide what grounds are reasonable for conducting a war. It can be economically ensued ( in which they are all successful unless we don’t give up our McDonalds, Cokes and Surf Excels) but the truth is that wars are very frequently imposed on weaker nations using military force. And we need to be prepared for that as well. We cant possibly live in a cuckoo’s nest and expect not to be harassed.

Yes, Iran is another country whom I see as having the nerves to deal with the western block (forgot it), but do not underestimate Pakistan’s potential. However it needs to pull up its socks and get to work- which I believe it will in time InshAllah. This nation is full of hardworking and able men and women, who continue to survive despite a lot being lost. No amount of power failures, food shortage and terrorism has brought them down- their spirits are on the low for now, but not their souls. It is such a nation that can be pulled out of its chaos given an apt leader. Pakistan also has the most capable, well-trained and well-equipped army in the whole of Muslim world. Saudi Arabia has been able to buy advanced weapons from its petro-dollars but not sufficient training. On the other hand, Iran has a very well-disciplined, well-trained army- but is ill-equipped. Only Pakistan army has a good balance of both although I feel it should stop relying on US change of weapons and deal more with other nations like Russia and France for its military aircrafts and weapons. I agree with Mr. Bhutto’s stance on foreign policy.
CENTO was signed by Pakistan in 1955- one year before a military takeover occurred. SEATO was signed in 1954. Before that we weren’t able to conjure up a decent constitution so that general elections can take place, and thus, no democratic government had any existence. So your facts aren’t correct.

If you claim that Bhutto’s 5 years of government strengthened the federation, than you must also see this relatively. As I have said before, Bhutto was a stalwart, and a man of vision above par. Your present setup has hyenas like Zulfiqar Mirza buzzing out in rallies that had it not been for Zardari Sahab, they were out to proclaim “Pakistan Na Khappey’- all because a pseudo-leader, whom the rest of the nation cant even relate to was assassinated? It becomes a major historical blunder when nations cherish people more than following a good ideology. When we empower people more than institutions.

About Fall of Dhaka, the seeds of Bangladesh had been sown much before military rule, however some further critical mistakes made by Ayub Khan’s regime helped to bring it down ultimately. If I am getting this correctly, your views about Mujeeb-ur-Rehman smell of sympathetic pride. He was actually a traitor because later journalists and historians have recorded how there was a deep liaison between him and Indian government- its recorded history- please read up on it. Pakistan army was unfortunately involved in atrocities with Bengalis but, first, the figures given are grossly exaggerated. Second, Mukti Bahanis were also responsible for slaughtering hundreds and thousands of West Pakistanis as well as Biharis ,all civilians- riding on the backs of Mujeeb-ur-Rehman and India.

When I referred to Iqbal vs Churchill, it wasn’t meant to be an emotional attack at all because it wasn’t particularly pointing to you-instead it was a general statement that we, as a previously subjected race by the whites tend to get swayed by their ideas more often than our own. Further, Iqbal isn’t just a poet for me. He is also a philosopher carrying great socio-political perspective. Although like you, I cant really claim to have read all his poetry let alone understand it, I still like referring to him more. The verse that I have quoted was not complete because I wanted to make a point only through the second line. However even if we include the fist line i.e

Jalal-e-badshahi ho ya jamhoori tamasha
Juda ho deen siyasat se to reh jaati hai changezi

Iqbal is giving two alternatives of governance i.e, monarchy or democracy. Without further ridiculing either of them, note that he has used the term ‘jamhoori tamasha’ or ‘democratic circus’, a term which isn’t really taken in a very serious, polite manner. Iqbal has never written about western democracy as a viable option. He has however, respected some democratic principles in light of Islam for eg, values of equality, justice and freedom as I have talked of before. And if the Caliph practices his powers contrary to Islamic teachings, he can be deposed by the same people who selected him in the first place.

One more point Id like to make here is that, God has not allowed humans to make their own constitutions. His constitution is given to us in Koran and if we deviate from His given rules, we are not really Muslims, and according to iqbal, we are then vetoing the basic concept of Tawhid- the first tenet of our religion.

About democracy Iqbal has written some more,

The Democratic system of the West is the same old instrument
Whose chords contain no note other than the voice of the Kaiser,
The Demon of Despotism is dancing in his democratic robes
Yet you consider it to be the Nilam Pari of liberty
This verse is self-explanatory and if you’ve read Iqbal enough, you must also understand his style of writing. He is simply saying, that democracy is a mockery that has been put up as a good façade, for the same age old despotism- to please the masses who otherwise would continue to rise up in revolts like in yesteryears. Let them be content in the illusion that they make decisions.

We may not like the military because it doesn’t ‘consult’ us in various matters and because it has a very authoritative approach towards governance. But atleast it doesn’t use false rhetoric and emotional propaganda to play politics. We as Pakistanis have to see matters for what they really are. It really is a miracle that this country has survived for more than 62 years despite predictions contrary to it citing a few months. It is not the politicians who have kept it going despite all its problems, it could have crumbled the first thing had it been them. Sometimes what may seem like unfair, wrong measures by the army are actually country-saving tactics. I may sound unethical but we need to think way above a few lives at this point. I know its dreadful for you and me to die out there like guinea pigs but in my perspective- Pakistan must survive. It is a region with an ideology which will go further in history than any of us can imagine- so Pakistan will have to make it to that point.

I know the media-fed, West-fed, and politician-fed tantra of democracy is prevalent all around us, so its hard to escape, to break free our minds of brainwashing, brainwashing that is done by them to meet their goals continually and to keep their bank accounts fat and healthy. But the destitute must come of age now, its long enough. Parliamentary/Presidential democracy is not the solution. Its absence is not the real problem. Democracy is not really a value to be cherished. Real values are justice, equality of thought, speech, wealth and lifestyle. Freedom to conduct our lives within morally acceptable principles. Anybody who can provide you all of that, is our leader.

I know that to date no military dictator has come up to my expectations in Pakistan, however I also have to say that they fare better than democratic leaders. What Pakistan needs is an honest and patriotic ruler, albeit a dictator, who can face the world with eyes full of scorn and glory. If that one man happens to be democratically elected but is totally selfless (unlike these politicking buffoons at present) than so be it. But the idea is that there has to be a man who doesn’t have 400+ selfish men to listen to (it complicates matters unnecessarily and those men can easily be bought and sold), and hails from a powerful institution whose writ can be exercised without fail. That can be the military, it can also be from bureaucracy, or it can be a nobody yet an educated, intelligent man who has managed to get the reigns of power in his hands ( eg, Che was just a doctor and Ayatollah Khomeini a mere cleric).


And now lastly, id like to finish off with the verse that YOU have quoted.

Azadi-e-afkaar hay iblees ki ejaad

Azaadi-afkaar means freedom of man to ponder or to come up with all kinds of ideas, to do as they wish. That is fundamentally a democratic concept, which Iqbal is deriding here as being an invention of Satan. The core of mankind is very filthy, scornful and vulnerable from Satan. This is why God hasn’t allowed mankind to devise his own principles but to depend on Him for ideals. Hence, western democracy is a purely man-made concept which cannot be found anywhere in history before the 18th century (read up on how young this concept is).

Until next time,

Regards

I respect our army being a Pakistani and when I show my concerns against Generals it must not be taken as tantamount to criticizing army.

Yes I still believe that army is an institution in Pakistan not the stakeholder in power. Yes I know that NCO’s are paid so less just like any other employee of the same scale. Do you know the salary of a BPS 2 or 3 or 4? Definitely not yes it’s the salary paid to any of the government employee working in rangers, police and same is for army. Rather ministry of defense had announced in October 2009 that the entire uniform person will get double salary of the basic pay and off course it has multiplying effects. In Pakistan NCO’s aren’t the issues of corruption, the matter is not even of Commissioned officers but it’s the matter of institutional liability that is set as per the constitution and it should be followed at any cost.

You have discussed about salary and I think it isn’t issue to be discussed but here I have to. Commissioned Officers get the salary just like any other BPS 17 employee but the fringe benefits of army officials include a batman, laundry, military vehicle for movement, foreign trainings etc that multiply his salary to the level of BPS 19 (if earns honestly).

Let me tell you that my cousin is Lt Col from medical core and he has earned Pak Rs 3 M during his 2 years military attachment to Cape Town – South Africa other then his routine expanses. You know he have not to pay even a single penny to the revenue department because his salary isn’t taxable. Its almost 10 years that he had joined army after completion of medical from Bahawalpur medical college and by now he is obliged by 1 Kanal plot in Islamabad other then all the benefits he is availing being in Pak army.

Wow these armed people are still at suffering side….! “Well my utility bills have never crossed the amount of Rs 5000 because I am among these “bloody civilians.”

One of my cousins is DSR (this post is equalent to Army Captain) in Sindh Rangers he told me that army officers of the equal rank disgrace them and never treat them at par. Army controls the rangers in leadership of DG Rangers (a serving major general) and commanding officers are from different ranks of army. He told me that army officers abuse their powers and financial resources and do not bother to encroach the resources of rangers as well. Eg an SR (equivalent to major) never get the facility which he is entitled for as rangers is headed by army. Army officers of low rank do not give due regard to the officials of rangers although senior to them. I would like to quote his words in its actual “Army has a authoritative mindset and by nature they consider themselves superior to others”

You said they sacrifice their sleep, luxuries and comforts these are the things sacrificed by even a security guard working in a bank, office or at any other place without any job security and fringe benefits. A police officer serving to save the masses from terroristic activities sacrifices all the above mentioned comforts and spends night by standing at roadside. There are many officials transferred to other cities and they go and work there by leaving their families at home town. Although their families are not as privileged as the families and kids of armed people.

It would be good to share that one of my cousins is working in FGEI C&G and she shared that even the female teachers are transferred from Rawalpindi (Saddar) to Wah, Taxilla, Muree and even Mangla and they have to go there just because of their jobs. So don’t you think that it’s the toughness and sacrifice even a common man is paying? I have said it sacrifice because if she is going so far its not only her financial matter but her service as well. But of course its not the topic of discussion as she is the same “bloody civilian”

Lets calculate on logical grounds what we need more…..? Pakistan is a developing country where poverty has reached to 38% that’s so alarming. A country where literacy rate is still below 50% and economy can’t tolerate the expanse of development so do we need lavish spending on army or we need needful amount for education sector, poverty alleviation and developmental work? Offcourse atleast for me money should be spent for public relief.

Please have a look over reommendations forwarded by freedom house to make Pakistan free of corruption. I have given just an excerpt for further reading you can click the link below.

Recommendations to curb corruption

• Pakistan's efforts against corruption are unlikely to bear fruit unless the military and the judiciary are also held accountable.

• Appointment of the NAB's personnel should be subjected to checks and balances and its jurisdiction should be extended to the military and the judiciary. The NAB should not be used for the political purpose of discrediting politicians and civilian administrators.

• Improvements in pay scales for civil servants and judges are necessary to inhibit the environment for corruption.

• The scope of the Freedom of Information Ordinance must be expanded and an enforcement mechanism provided. Secrecy in government should be minimized.


http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...ection=73&ccrp

I think its sufficient to realize the role of army accounts in corruption ratings.

Even I am not comparing the efforts of NCO’s and Bhutto Family. Dear Sister please quote me a single example in which the privileged general or his offspring have rendered sacrifice of life in serving the nation? Can you identify even a single example where the son of general has joined army as NCO? If no then there is no reason to again and again confine army to NCO’s. I already have mentioned in my previous post that when I discuss army it means the generals who have power hungry nature and want to rule the country even at a cost of betraying their oath.

Here I am not discussing Bhutto family especially BB Shaheed. I will Inshahallah serve a thread to unveil her personality in a broader perspective after CE 2010 exams

Dictators ruled most of the time during the history of the country. During their rule they enjoyed absolute power in comparison to the “bloody civilians”. As a matter of justice, then they should share the responsibility of current plight of the country on proportional basis at least. There are certain facts that no one can deny

Corruption is a gift of dictatorship. Before Ayub regime, corruption was not a common practice. You might remember when Malik Ghulam Muhammad was forced to resign; he had no private house where he could live. Sikandar Mirza had to work in a Restaurant in UK after he ceded the presidency.

The biggest fact is that during Bhtto’s regime the gifts given by other states to PM were treated as state property. Zia made an amendment and allowed the incumbent head of Govt (President himself at that time as CMLA) to keep these gifts after paying 15pc of the cost of the gift. And Musharf went a step further by allowing the president to retain the gift valuing more than 400000/= without paying even a single penny to Govt treasury. By manipulating the procedures Zia, Musharf and Shaukat Aziz took away gifts, a public property worth billions of rupees. Still for you the dictators are the Santa Claus.

Itni naa badaa paakeeay daaaman key hikayat
Daamun koo zara daikh zara bund kabaaa daikh

One thing more that there are corrupt politicians but in less proportion when compared to bureaucrats and Generals and you can confirm it through the report of Transparency International published in 2006, 2007 and 2008. The difference is only that Generals are sacred cows and cannot be indicted. I share another incidence many of Public sector organizations were privatized during Musharaf’s Regime. Not a single company was given to the highest bidder. UBL was purchased by a business group of UAE that had taken a loan worth 15 billion from UBL previously. Bank had sued to recover the loan but afterwards at the instructions of Musharaf Sb the loan plus interest was written off and bank was sold to them at amount even less then the net worth of Bank. I hope you wont consider it corruption. There are hundred such examples in which public money was looted. If you will go through report of transparency international of 2008 you will come to know that Mush government had looted billions of rupees that were given to Pakistan on the name of natural calamity.

You have cited NRO beneficiaries, how many of them are politicians? You would surprise to know that out of more then 8 thousand there are only 34 politicians. Don’t you think politicians are better than those generals? You must read the list of those who get their loans of billions of rupees written off during dictatorial regimes (70 pc of loans were written off during Zia and Musharraf period). You would find it worth listening that beneficiaries are Generals such as Generals Syed Muhammad Amjad first chairman of NAB, offspring’s of Generals as Hamayoon Akhtar and other business men.

Coming to Pakistan policy during Soviet –Afghan war. You advised me to read more on this topic. I think you need it yourself. Even the architects of this policy today acknowledge that it was based on vested interest. I can share innumerable articles of leading analysts who believe that it was a gross blunder. Even common sense doesn’t accept that a state and its security establishment is allowing the militants of other countries to operate in Pakistan, recruit people for so called jihad and advise them to kill innocent people in other countries. Only an inhuman nature can support this policy under the cover of “doctrine of necessity”. I would like to read that leading analyst who has supported and justified the then policy of Pakistan on Afghan Issue. I am the regular reader of Dawn, Jang and some other papers from last 3 years and not even a single columnist have courage to support that policy that has put the country into the clutches of corruption and terrorism.

I respect Pakistan army as an institution but it is also a fact that our army failed to protect the country during the dictatorial regimes. Pakistan has faced shameful defeat after losing 1971 war and there is no doubt in it. Independent analysts also believe that 1965 war (after failure of Operation Gibraltor) magnified our weaknesses. Even we lost Siachen during another dictatorial rule (the statement of the then dictator was astonishing that this area couldn’t even grow the grass).

Sun too sahee jahan main hay teraa fasannaaa kia
Kehti hay tujh koo khalq e khudaa ghayebaana kia

Tell me honestly that during whose regime Pakistan’s foreign policy remained more submissive to USA? For best of your knowledge bloody civilians never showed as much subservience as dictators did. Pak – US always remained cold during civilian Govt. Pressler and Brown amendment were promulgated during civilian Govt. 70pc of US aid came here during dictatorial regimes. Still politicians are culprits to support US policies. You said that military dictators (though they don’t like to be called dictators and every one wanted to take some democratic cover through power abuse, corruption and unethical, immoral tactics) have the courage to observe the dignity. You know when Bill Clinton visited South Asia in 1999. Whole Govt machinery was engaged in convincing the US president to pay a visit to Pakistan. He visited us after great diplomatic efforts though he had not announced the schedule till eleventh hour. And what happened when he visited for just few hours? He overtly disgraced the military govt and even the people of Pakistan during his direct address to Pakistani nation but it haven’t effected the then dictator so called courageous leader Mr Musharaf where was his dignity at that time?

Keeping all this discussion aside, I believe that people can never be angels nor flawless. To err is human. Rules and regulations are framed to put constraints on us other wise the societies may turn in to jungles.

Democracy though not excellent but is a good form of governance than all other dispensations. The best form of governance in the history of mankind was Riasat-e-Madina during Hazoor (SAW) and afterwards khilfat-e-rashdaa. All other dispensations bears flaws because humans can’t eradicate the flaws in totality but democracy is least flawed. In the contemporary world, democratic nations enjoy honour and respect amongst the comity of nations. India is an example. You have previously said that India has emerged as a big power due to its economy. It is wrong. During 1960’s and early 70s India’s economy was not much better than that of Pakistan’s. India was also facing innumerable challenges to its federation many separatists’ movements were operating. There were many religious, lingual and ethnic conflicts among Indian nation. But India overcame all these challenges due to its Democracy. It is what they say proudly. Are Indian politicians flawless? Surely not.

You have pointed out flaws in democratic system of developed countries. Yes it is there. You know corruption charges have been leveled against Sarkoozy? Recently a scam of corruption surfaced in UK? Many US presidents were involved in corruption but still these societies are much better than our Muslim societies. (Don’t feel offended please it is fact). I tell you an interesting example. The daughters of Turkish PM are studying in US Universities because they are not allowed to wear SCARF in Turkey while there is no such restriction in USA. Western socities have absorbed millions of Muslims expatriates and given them equal constitutional status while our own Muslim brother countries don’t grant nationality or other rights.

When it is said that worst form of democracy is better than best dictatorship it has logic behind it. A single person in spite of in good faith may commit blunders. But in democratic Govt, the decision making authorities have to take in to consideration many factors. The current Govt had to retreat on many matters owing to differences with in party and parliament.

If you read and listen the views of leading intellectuals whose integrity is beyond the shadow of any doubt (I am not talking about paid journalist), they are agreed that democracy, even in its worst form, is necessary for survival of Pakistan. If we are agreed that we need democracy then we cannot make it better until we remain committed to the democratic values. It takes decades and even centuries for the democracies to strengthen. Today all the leading nations are Democratic but many of them have reached this place after a long struggle. Democracy, if allowed to work, has a built in system of accountability.

Recetly Musharaf Sb has acknowledged that he had requested US to either hand over the drone technology to Pakistan or just put a Pakistani flag on the planes when they strike in Pakistan. He also confessed that he sold many Pakistanis to US in exchange of dollars. Tell me who allowed US to use Pakistani basis in Pakistan first time? It was none other then Mr Ayub.

I don’t support people rather I support democracy as a system. Even dictators themselves acknowledged that we need democracy thus they use the cover of democracy to legitimize their illegitimate rule. So we have no other choice then democracy. We have left with only one option and its to strengthen democracy with patience, tolerance and participation. The people of Pakistan have the right to vote out or in a democratic govt. Democratic people have to go back to the people after serving for limited time. You may have objections over it but ideals only exist in books. This process may have flaws but it is fact that people decide fate of the politicians.

The current Govt inherited suicide bombings, electricity shortage, gas shortage, food shortage and above all a burning unit of federation. The restrictions on political govt are open secret. But still the nation witnessed first ever consensus on NFC. The central govt sacrificed its resources to strengthen the federation. They have also tried to placate the Baluch Brothers. Although hundreds of flaws but let them work and with passage of time it will bear fruit.

__________________
Hoee hay jab say mukhalif hawa zamanay key......
Humain bhee dhun see hoee hay diaa jalaanay key

A.O.A.
Although KLB is not that much hot an issue as it had been a month or so ago.However,it is important even now to discuss its need and implications.Side by side,we ve been discussing democracy.
So first,I take the issue of democracy as a few words on democracy would also cover the KLB and its implications.
I agree with Saleeqa Batool's stance on''Democracy,democracy and only democracy''.Well, Pak. was in need of money and that too in the shape of aid(KLB) then why there was that much hue and cry across the country.To me,this is simply because our decision-makers failed to conduct a democratic and parliamentary debate on the Bill.The decision-makers thought that they r in an authoritative position and can do any thing what they desire or wish.So,we saw that the undemocratic approach of a democratic govt.led it towards a retrieval from its original stance.Even then,it is the beauty of democracy that govt.faced a severe criticism and after that it resorted to parl.and now the issue has been democratically handled if not fully resolved.
Moral:Authority is to use where necessary and not to misuse.
I dont know whether i could interpret the topic or misinterpreted?
With Regards,
ASAD

__________________
If you fail to plan,you plan to fail

Hi,

Though I have always been an admirer of your stance and approach toward creating a democratic atmosphere in Pakistan in its letter and spirit yet I do not agree to most of the things you said above. It would be totally unjust to malign an organization cause of a few culprits. Do you know the strength of Pakistan army? Its almost one million. How many of them are generals? And How many of them, who according to your statement were power hungary and tried to come in power by a coup de tat?
Army is the only institute which is well disciplined; personnel well trained and well educated (Yes I am right when I say well educated). They are unique in a way that they readily give their blood to the motherland. Not only on borders, but the insidious arena of war is an excellent example of their sacrifices that they make.

Yeah, an officer gets a salary equivalent to that of a Grade 17 employee but the facility of buddy has long been snatched because it was disgraceful for the institution to have an army men at home who is reserved to clean and keep the home tidy. At least this is the reason i heard, which means the facility to have free laundry has also been taken away. Furthermore they are not given any vehicle for their personal use, like a Grade 17 officer.

Try to be just and reply, is it a proper way to demonize a whole organization on the basis of one single experience?

Again, not all the army personnel get such lucrative opportunities to add something to their existing accounts. As well as, Police men are also sent on such missions where they can earn some easy money.

You must keep the example of Ayub Khan in mind while talking about the gifts given. While holding any public office the gifts are property of the state and Ayub khan, no matter if he was a dictator never tried to make them his personal property. I am not advocating dictatorship as I have always been in favor of democracy in our Country. The points you gave are absolutely agreeable as the jurisdiction of NAB must be extended and army and judiciary must be held accountable to eliminate any possible chances of corruption in these institutes. Actually corruption has always been more like a state of mind of our politicians. Neither they are afraid of God Almighty, nor they have any sympathy left in some corner of their hearts for the common man. But again a dictatorial regime can never be the solution, which is to make the organs of state working efficiently.

Regards

@ saleeqa Batool

I guess we have had enough arguments over who were more bad guys.. The Generals or the Politicaians. I guess the debate was to ab abt 2 systems democracy vs one man rule but it has been discussed mainly in terms of the personalities associated rather then the systems themselves. U r after Generals instead of highlighting what merits / demerits are dere of one man show nd other are after Polticians nd not really discuassin democracy as a system

Anyhow comin to the point I,ve heard from many ppl advocating democracy tht it is a self correcting system nd if allowed 2 work it will refine itself nd we ll have may be the near perfect rule.

Now my Questions are.....

1) What i have persumed by this doctrine of giving the democracy enough time so tht ppl become enough awared nd sensible 2 make the right choices(i.e basically a well educated society) But here 4 me what will make democracy then a good system is basically coz u have good people out dere nd not coz the system z good. Bcoz 4 me no system iz inherently good or bad. At the end of day it is the people working in tht system who determine
if the system will deliver or nt. Nd once you have good ppl out dere, 4 me any system ll deliver goods whatever be it.
I would like ur comment over it

2) Secondly supposing we give democracy enough time nd it refines itself as predicted by u. Where will it end up aftr say 20 yrz??
I guess where currently good democracies of USA or UK are..
Right!!!!!!!!

So is the democratic system of these countriess is really good enough n really deliver 2 da wishes of the ppl?????

Talking of USA one of the best proclaimed democracy nd so called protector of democracy over the globe no matter ppl like it or nt.
Who z incharge of all the imp decision made dere? Is it the the politicians over dere, the representative of people?? No!!! my sister they are not. They are just put dere 2 give ppl an idea tht yes dey have a freedom of choice but infact they dont have any choice.
Doesnt matter whosoever be in White House the policies manipulation comes always from a special lobby. The lobby of ppl who really own things, the gigantic business tycons who rule nt just USA but entire world. In case of USA u can say it z jewish lobby coz dey have all the financial control of USA system nd dere z no single politician who can deny them coz dey owe dere position 2 them.
Who pushed USA into the great game?? Who pushed USA into iraq n ME. Coming 2 latest how the recent health bill was manipulated by the real stake holders the big tycon nd ultimatelty it wa passed only aftr dere intrests were safeguarded nd nt the intrests of a common American. Surely all these decisons were not made by the politicains nor it was mandate of Americans people !! they were being dictated

So is the case everywhere. No matter what is the system prevailing. Be it the best democracy or any other system the decisions are made by tht specific pplz who really own things. In USA tht group is the one who owns
all the money nd rule the BLOODYY COMMON MAN nd here in pk tht groups comes out 2 b Army nd we are BLODDY CIVILIANS so the best u ll end up wid is another class of masters but there always ll be Bloddy Civilians or Common man

__________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

You were not born a winner, and you were not born a loser. You are what you make yourself be.