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  #51  
Old Wednesday, January 06, 2010
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@ All and sundry, Salam

What is the present status and progress on the KLB? Please mention along with source(s). Thanks everyone.
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Khanabadosh

“And among men there is one who selleth his self (soul) seeking the pleasure of God; and verily, God is affectionate unto His (faithful) servants.” 2:207
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  #52  
Old Wednesday, January 13, 2010
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Wow! You know, you went into unnecessary details describing the life of army men. I think it was a gross leap from the topic at hand to something which we really need not consider. It also looks like you are more of an economist than one who carries a general view of stuff. From the economic point of view you seem to have the facts in your pocket, but countries and nations are built over a sort of a Pyramid. In this pyramid, economy, defense, foreign relations, and political systems, administration- all are supposed to flourish- you cannot do without any one. Now here it is a matter of debate because some have given economy of a nation higher standing than political standing, and others have preferred defense mechanism over economy. However, most statesmen from Prophet Moses (as) to Alexander the Great to Constantine to Niccolo Machiavelli to Winston Churchill, have all been proponents of strengthening the defense of the country first, and then comes everything else. So that answers your apprehensions about the power/privileges the military enjoys. It can only do its job, given these leverages. However I agree with you on the note that accountability should also apply for them, infact it should also be the case for a peon ( God knows how many government peons have I seen living lavishly). This also cements the fact that individual character is important -not a type of an institution, for pretty soon, it becomes the national character.

I will quote a very interesting story a friend narrated to me the other day. This was during the time Golda Meir was the Prime minister of Israel (early 70’s I think) when Israel was busy buying modern weapons and technology left right and center. So a journalist asked her the reason for such madness at a time when Israelis didn’t even have enough to eat and their economy was in bad shape. Meir told the journalist that she would give the answer on the condition that it be revealed only once she was dead. A few years after her death, the journalist revealed her reply, that Meir had read about the last days of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and that at the time of his passing, he didn’t have any food or more than a few clothes left at home- however, he had in his possession, 9 swords (they were expensive then, as modern weapons are now). The lesson to be learnt here is, that people will continue to be only so long as someone doesn’t pounce in on them from outside, for then, your existence will be wiped out. One can face starvation, but cannot stand facing a hostile army. This answers your question about budget chunk that the army gets.

You’ve quoted your cousin saying that the “Army has an authoritative mindset and considers itself superior to others”. An authoritative mindset is their necessity, rather it is part of their job description. A superiority complex is a by-product of their nature of work. Ill try and explain this. If they don’t carry an air of authority, their sub-ordinates will never listen to their superiors and this can be nationally fatal during war time. They also have to act superior and authoritatively in order to face marauding/ threatening armies. I ask of you, what will be your reaction to a Labrador retriever dog? Not very threatened right? But for instance, here comes a Rottweiler charging at you? Oh dear, only Lord may help you then. You want someone to take you seriously and also be afraid, you have to carry a different note than the common man. Why shouldn’t a man who has seen grave life and death situations in a battle-field, then conquered the terror associated with it- feel superior? I have lived in Germany for a long time, and I used to deplore their sense of superiority and that air of belligerence. I complained about it to my husband some time back and I quite agreed with what he had to say. He said, why shouldn’t they feel superior? Have they not excelled in most fields? Have they not marched into a new era devoid of war guilt? From a time when one had to fill up a whole potato sack full of money bills in order to buy a loaf of bread after WW II, to this day takes a lot of courage and determination. Hitler wasn’t totally wrong when he provoked a sense of German nationalism in his people- he knew where his strength lay.

You don’t realize it, but your arguments are more anti-military than in favor of a democratic government. However, some facts that I think I want to clear are, that army personnel receive a plot after some 35 years (minimum I think) of service. Come on, they deserve that as well as this creates some sort of motivation and sense of security for those thinking of opting the services. Now there is a clear distinction between army personnel and other bureaucratic institutions. Agreed, that policemen, government officials also get insufficient monetary benefits and sacrifice their comforts (not to say that in every kind of job you have to sacrifice ‘something’ so that point is null and void) but the military supersedes others in that zeal. It requires the maximum out of you physically, mentally and emotionally- something unequalled by other jobs. And then to top it all off, given the current socio-political outlook, they all easily make money illegally- something that only top ranks of army are capable of doing if they choose to do so ,that is. So I think other government servants have it easier than those on the front. Walking on the lines of family examples, I have atleast 5 relatives who are CSP’s ( 3 PSP’s and 2 Customs) and sadly, they all live wayyy above their means. Other relatives refused to follow their fathers’ footsteps and did not appear in the competitive exams because they didn’t wish to be part of shady business and they didn’t have the nerves to fight the system all the time. They said they’d be happier settling abroad or working for an MNC. Atleast I haven’t seen any one red-taped soul in my life, who lives within his means. So all my arguments don’t leave any doubt as to the opportunities bureaucrats have for making money.
Thankyou, for reprinting the recommendations for curtailing corruption in Pakistan. I agree wholeheartedly. You’ve asked me whether a General has ever joined the ranks of martyrs? First, you need to know that throughout history, very few commanders of armies have been forefront in battlefield. Their job primarily is to give out instructions to their subordinates and devise strategy/tactics. Second, anyone who has ‘survived’ the days of lower ranks becomes a General. It is their fate that they continue to live. Apart from that, you’ve asked if there are any offspring of Generals who have served as NCO’s- then yes. Some disciplined fathers actually tell their sons to join the army first as Non-commissioned officers and then later opt for commissioned ranks. Not to mention that every commissioned army officer also lives in the company of NCO’s for the first few days of his service so that he can be given a ‘feel’ of their lives.

What else? oh yeah, cant wait for your synopsis on BB’s character.

I must say a lot of the information that you’ve provided is not backed securely. For instance, corruption was very much there even before Ayub’s regime because it was first Ghulam Muhammad the Governor-General who overthrew his Prime Minister Khwaja Nazimuddin. Look back into Maulvi Tamizuddin Khan case vs Govt. of Pakistan. In this case the plaintiff lost, and the then Judges of the SC have been quoted themselves as saying that never before had they been subjected to such immense pressure to give verdict in favor of the government. The military wasn’t even in the picture then which kicked in around 1956. And anyone who can depose a constitutionally -correct position (the term is being used loosely here, for there was no constitution as such back then) in order to remain mighty, doesn’t really mind making some bucks. And there was certainly someone behind the inconspicuous assassination of PM Liaqat Ali khan, which of course was as early as 1951. As for Sikander Mirza ( I think you’re talking about Iskander Mirza), I am happy to tell you that the reason Ayub Khan deposed and then sent him to exile in UK, was because there were immense corruption charges on him so Ayub Khan demanded all the money to be paid back, after which he was sent packing.

Please lets not get petty, when we cite examples of state gifts. A few gifts here and a whole Surrey Palace in UK is a trade-off or not? You know what else is in news for now? Why do you think that after the NRO issue, they are slowly taking up another one that of, illegal loan sanctions by the State bank. Previously the SC demanded a detailed record of all loans sanctioned to investors since 1997, but recently they have broadened the time span and asked for loan records after 1973. This is an attempt to target Nawaz Sharif and his Ittehad Group who have to their credit many such illegal provisions of loans. Why should I for instance side up with the one-eyed democracy that Nawaz Sharif promises to me? If he hates the military so much, he should be put into his shoes by reminding him that he is an illegal child of the military himself. Now that the parent has disowned him, he suddenly decides to take off? And BB herself came back to Pakistan after her infamous ‘deal’ with a dictator? How is democracy congruent with dictatorships? It says a great deal about their characters and ethical awakening.

You’ve claimed that the politicians can be taken into account but not the Generals? Cite some real life examples where the politicians have been taken into account much less ‘returned’ the looted wealth? Abstain from referring to political victimization which sometimes the PML applies on PPP and then vice versa. Been there done that. In the NRO there are 34 politicians, and others are mostly bureaucrats, who on the most part carry political affiliations (anyone who has seen the workings of higher ranks of bureaucrats knows that very few are those that have absolutely no party affiliations. And this is why when governments change, the new setup also brings in ‘new’ brass of bureaucrats with them and the old ones are sidelined. There are also those btw, that are on the side of the ‘Establishment’)

Now my favourite part, the Soviet-Afghan war. You have used the term ‘vested interests’ for describing what Pakistan did back then. Well, if not vested interests, how else would you explain how countries conduct international relations? Further, Pakistan never ‘allowed foreign militants to operate’ within Pakistan. It was more about encouraging jihadists in Afghan war, who were fighting against the Soviets and CIA/ISI were backing them up- to teach a lesson to USSR. USA’s and Pakistan’s objectives in the Great Game somewhat matched. Simple. In this process, of course some militants used to come to Pakistan to deal with the agencies here, which doesn’t need more explanation, I am sure you understand that.

I don’t really like reading Dawn and don’t consider its editorials to be of much insight either. When I read an editorial each week, I want different perspectives to come up every time- rather than having a safe, almost neutral approach. On this forum only, I was going through an interview description of a successful candidate in which he told the panel that he reads Dawn- to which one of the interviewers remarked “oh so you like being on a safe side”. So that is the view I carry of Dawn. I mean nothing new and interesting usually comes out of it. To some extent I think Daily Times editorial is much more diverse and far-sighted. I have no comment about Jang which I don’t read.

It was not just Pakistan but Iran also aided the afghan mujahideen by providing them with bases for launching cross border attacks as well as training. Not just that, US, China, UK, UAE, Italy, France, Saudi Arabia, Egypt were also funneling in aid via Pakistan to these jihadi groups. We will have to understand that it was absolutely integral for the existence of Pakistan as well- and other nations including many muslim, were doing the same and they weren’t all crazy. Had USSR become stable in Afghanistan, Pakistan was next in line. Then would have come Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, moving westwards onto European continent. They don’t call it a Russian Bear for no reason. It is fuelled by imperialistic, expansionist agenda that has by no means died. Think what happened in Georgia last year and why every country west of Russia was frightened and then think what Russia did when it cut off Europe’s energy supply.
Now although I am not a big fan of Zia-ul-Haq personally, however there is no denying that he was a shrewd man. Earlier in the war, USA recognized Pakistan’s importance and offered some $400 million aid to Pakistan during Carter administration. Having established previously that Pakistan simply had to fight this war, Zia negotiated with US that if Pakistan was to be part of the alliance, it needed far more than that, and that without its assistance, ‘US will not be able to hold its ground anywhere between Turkey and Vietnam”. So I like his stance on this, that atleast he formed a partnership with US on basis of equality rather than as a weak ,submissive nation.
Who sides up with the ‘doctrine of necessity’ view? Many, including famous ex-foreign servicemen who frequent talk shows ( Zafar Hilaly, Shahid Amin etc) , many foreign journalists although few local journalists also do, as well as Zaid hamid also says the same. Pick up some major war/military journals of the past, or do a research over the internet based on this perspective and you’ll come to know. Actually, there were merits as well as demerits of such a crisis, as is the case with every situation in life. And so you have different perspectives. Even within the group that claims Pakistan should have supported Afghan Mujahideen, there are two main bifurcations. Those that say it should have supported the moderate section of mujahideens (Ahmed Shah Masood etc) and those that say Pakistan should have aided fundamentalists section (later, Taliban were included), as it really did.

About Siachan Glacier, Pakistan has not relinquished control of the glacier totally. It still controls 1/3 of the area while the other is controlled by India.Infact Pak army conducted mountain climbing expeditions much before Indians even thought of it. It was only after they came to know of Pakistan’s initiative that they escalated the conflict by sending in their expeditions to the area. The sequel to Siachen was Kargil war when Pakistan had occupied some major strategic posts across the LOC- which we shouldn’t forget was later rolled back by the Nawaz Sharif government on the behest of US instructions (if you remember the abrupt Washington visit of the former). Many argue that Pakistan was not on a winning streak there, but if it really was the case, there was no need for a summoning of the Pak PM to US and the subsequent cease-fire.

Except ZA Bhutto, every democratic government’s foreign policy has been inclined to the US. Zia ul Haq’s inclination, as described earlier, was not a sign of submission or unequal partnership. Musharraf didn’t really deal with US pressure as his predecessor, however the situation after 9/11 had changed the face of global politics overall, what to talk of Pakistan. And Ayub khan’s alignment with US was in anticipation of major US aid which helped nourish industry here. Foreign aid on its own is not too bad- it is the conditions attached to it that make it so. You are merely pointing out to vulnerabilities which ought to occur at some point by mentioning individual examples like Operation Gibralter- atleast the army isn’t acting like sitting ducks- time and again it has tried to do something about lost ground. In the process even if it fails, I am still proud of the ideology behind it. Some more fact correction. Bill Clinton’s visit took place in 1999 before the Kargil War tension ceased- his few hours of stay in Pakistan was a protest. And all this happened during Nawaz Sharif government.

Then you yourself have admitted that the government of Prophet Muhammad (Saw) was the best in human history. If we also believe that his Sunnat is to be followed for all times and ‘can’ be followed- then it also means such a system can also flourish again. And his system was definitely not ‘democratic’- something which I have tried to explain endlessly before as well. There are certain prerequisites of democracy. Public consent is the most vital bit, which is clearly absent in early Islamic days. The same was the case during the times of Khulfa-e-Rashideen.

You have claimed that India survived its separatist movements due to its democratic nature. That is wrong. India has ‘marketed’ and ‘sugar-coated’ its position intelligently. Separatist movements are still very much there in Assam,Orissa, Tamil Nadu and Kerala to name a few only. Google them and you’ll know. The Tamil Tigers were a threat to India until very recently and although they have been crushed for now, yet other movements need only a slight fuelling by an outside power, and India will also see the end of its days. And that fueling should be provided by Pakistan if it wants to teach a lesson to India in retrospect of Fall of Dhaka.

USA, UK and other western countries welcome migration because it needs manpower- something which they constantly require due to their lower birth rates- so its their necessity. Despite that, muslims there face constant pressures on ethnic and racial grounds. Its funny yet I am quoting how Shahrukh Khan was given an ‘unholy’ treatment at JFK sometime back due to his ‘muslim-sounding name’. Sure, we ourselves are to be blamed too, because a few among us are responsible for the bad name. Ive also said before; what good does USA do if it amalgamates a few of our countrymen yet showers bombs on all the rest here? What democracy, or American values should I cherish?

Also let me know where and when Musharraf had sold off pakis for dollars? I know this is true, but come on now, he hasn’t really admitted it.

Lastly, democracy cannot flourish in a country where feudal system is rampant! The fact is, in this country, democratic forces DO NOT go back to their people. They are not wary of the very people whom they rule. In Sanghar, Sindh, people may hate Pir Pagaro, but when he orders something, no matter how foolish, they kneel down. In Gujrat, people may not be happy with the Chaudry brothers, but when they ask them for their votes in return for a tube well, they are mighty happy. It is a combination of such illiteracy, religious fervor and tribal favoritism that is eating away at the roots of this country. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan had once said that the muslims of the sub-continent cannot survive in a system of democracy because of their lack of education. The situation hasn’t changed much since then.

The army is the perfect institution to yield a man to rule this country because of its unique qualities. But I really don’t mind a man like Che Guevara or Hugo Chavez to rule my country either. Perhaps, democracy is not suited to the problems of our country as of now. We as a nation need strict disciplining (spare the rod and spoil the child), and only after we are on the right road to prosperity, we may be able to consider the first signs of democracy (think China which this year has surpassed Germany as the biggest exporter ).

This is getting too long, and the debate too tiresome. I am sure its taking your precious time as well. I guess in the end, you will continue to live by your word, and I by by my own.


Until next time,

Regards
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