And yeah Abdul Rehman sahab dare you not pointing your finger on any other muslim...hudood ordinance..is not all about islamic laws..it is a propaganda..of the people and by the people who say USE QURAN FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST!!...and whatever you quote about Music..sex ...alchol ..i completely agree with that...if u wanna follow the hudood follow the hudood Allah...not ORDINANCE...thats wat i meant..and YES people like you gave ISLAM a bad name...u know why coz u didnt make a valid point but u threatened to slap..me..thats how you want to spread islam...you dont want to spread islam you want to point fingers...SLAP people to understand islam..thats not how the Prophet did it and thats not how the Caliphs did it...this the code of conduct of the CLERGY ...Thank God Islam Protects the Quran..what church did to the bible we wud have been even more cruel to the teachings to use it FOR OUR OWN INTEREST... who are running orphnages in the name of islam but actualy are centers of HOMO-SEXUALITY ...huh thats wat i am against...how the hell did you point at my charactor...u dont know me dont u dare judge me...and ..You should be ashamed of the COMMENT REGARDING SLAP...SHAME ON YOU
CONVINCE LIKE A HUMAN NOT AN ANIMAL...GOT IT!!!...

And Yeah They Are Exactly Using Hudood Ordinance As You Used The Picture Of This Woman To Make Your Point...follow Hudood Allah...k...do Not Define It According To Your Own Needs...!!!!!

__________________
To climb steep hills requires slow pace at first

I am totally appalled at the language this guy is using...

ADMINS please WAKE UP....he is now pointing fingers at you guys personally WAKE UP WAKE UP

Good Omen...this guy is a teenager doing Inter (at least thats what he has written in his prior scraps) He thinks he has matured greatly by grinding his nose into all the books of the world but son maturity comes with age and experience. You have no right to call anyone a lesser of a muslim than you or anyone else. You have no authority what so ever....moreover i am not even contesting your views about islam....i am questioning your rude, childish and improper behaviour.

Islam does not teach us to be mean and condescending to ANYONE....HUMILITY is BIG in Islam....i think this is one lesson that you have missed.

Laughing sarcastically at people, calling them idiots, demeaning them, suggesting to slap them and now claiming that others may allow their sisters mothers etc. to have illegal sex is NOT AT ALL ISLAMIC!!!!

You need to go back to your Madrassah and learn the humility that Islam is all about.

And please don't bother answering my scrap point wise and with Ayats or Ahadiths coz thats not impressing ANY of us.

I can only pray that Allah gives good sense and humilty with time.

Best Regards.

__________________
Luck comes to those who Believe!

Sorry sorry sorry ... let me explain what happened in the last few posts.

I misinterpreted GreatOman's post, because, I mixed "Major Features" with "Major Flaws". This led me to think as if GreatOman wanted to decriminalize 'zina' as was the case before PPC! That's why I came up with an extreme reaction. Sorry for that... it was due to my misinterpretation.
And you guys also didn't clear up that you were not asking for that. I think that we should return back to discussing Hudood Ordinance & finish this issue right here.

@Clockwise
Thanks for telling me how much you hate me & how much abhor you have for me.

As regards sarcasm, laughing, etc. then I consider them an integral part of debate. They add emotions & make it more effective. I have been using that style on many forums, but, people didn't mind as much as you did. So, from now on, no more such emotions. I thought that other members are my friends and they like me too. But, thanks for opening my eyes. No one wants me here. I think I made a big mistake in participating in different discussions on this thread.

I never said that my knowledge is greater than all or that others are inferior. But, to do nahi anil munkir, when someone is misinterpreting things & I know about it, is wajib.

My age is less and perhaps, it pinches you why a younger person can leave you or someone else speechless. Sorry again if I made another mistake.

And lastly, I haven't studied at any madrassa, nor am I running homosexual centres in the name of orphan centres. I raised finger at other's character only because I misunderstood them. Sorry for that again...

I will return to discussing Hudood Ordinance formally, in my next post. This misinterpretation has spoiled all the charm of this thread. Sorry for that... Hope you'll forgive me for that.

I am busy so I will try to be compact & precise in my next post.

Abdul Rehman.

I have read posts on this topic&i study such incidences in newspaper.Whenever i come across such news or articles,i feel so much hurt that i feel gloomy all the day and that news continues to bother me even for days.I feel less hurt on murder news.If a person is murdered,he dies honourably.But living alive with rape is miserable whether this crime is reported or not.many girls lose their senses or develop severe psychological problems and are unable to live a healthy life.In my opinion,rape is a worse crime than murder.Once i read an article about the rape of a university girl who was raped by four boys in female waiting room and the fifth one who came there for the same intent was shocked to see that she was his sister.The boy went into coma and his sister died.A few days ago i bought a book on honour killing which throws light on the psyche of an honour killer.The novel called"The End of Innocence"was written by Moni Mohsin.It started so lightly that no one could ever expect such a miserable ending.I was so curious to know the end that i read the end chapter.But i was shocked to find the end.I couldnt complete it,and i found myself crying.I cant describe my feelings in words.I was never able to complete that novel.I simply cant tolerate it.I am too sensitive for that.Those of you who dont know about this should read it.We should be inclined to make this a productive society and punish crime for its own sake.What i hav observed is that in our society,even if we are fully aware of what islam says,we cant implement it.We give preference to our culture.We can take many examples from our everyday lives like dowry,vani,vata-sata,honourkilling etc.Even in most of homes,parents dont discuss any proposal with their daughters.Their consent is just taken at nikah.But i think girls should be included in this discussion and should at least be given the right to express their opinions freely.Later, this can cause serious trouble in a marriage relationship if a boy or a girl is compelled to obey parents and conform to culture and a girl is deprived of her rights.Few days ago i was reading an article about how our Prophet(PBUH) married hazrat KHadija.Hazrat KHadija ,1500 years ago,sent proposal by her friend to Holy Prophet(PBUH) and he agreed after discussing with HIS uncle.My question is can we,after 1500 years,allow sisters or daughters,to tell if they like someone even if we know they are mature enough to take such decisions?No---Never.WHY?We prefer culture not religion.The process of marriage is simplest in ISlam for our convenience,but even nowadays we have made it a complicated procedure.All because of culture.A boy and a girl are allowed to see eachother just once.Can we allow this nowadays even in supervision of elders?No.Boys are preferred to have jobs and gud amount of money and the parents of girls need time to collect dowry.This is delaying marriages making us vulnerable to committing crimes.By the time spouses reach 50,their children hav just passed their adolescence a year ago.Hav u ever thought where this is leading us?-----Towards such issues as Hudood ORdinances.---including rape and illegal relationships.A girl likes someone,but she is not allowed to have her say.Jab tak insaan mein feelings rahen gi,wo behkey ga.Nikah humein gunnah sey bachata hai.IF a girl likes someone,and there is no drawback in that relationship,y dont we allow her to marry?We force her because status,wealth,cast and such stupid issues come in way.If a boy and a girl marry of their own choice,and their marriage is failed,it is the result of their wrong-doing,immature decisions,curses etc.But if an arranged marriage fails,its luck.WHY?Cant elders hav wrong decisions?Are'nt they motivated by wealth,status and worldly gains?They are angels?When parents see that their children are adults,they like someone,they are vulnerable to go in wrong direction,its better to marry them instead of waiting them to commit illegal relationship.Similarly,husbands and wives should take care of eachother's desires.Expressing such desires with spouses,especially of wives to husband,is their right.There should be no stigma attached to it.Its our repressions and suppressions of such desires that frustrate us into committing such grave crimes.Again its cultural.In short,we ourselves gradually and unconsciously are creating such environment as to aggravate the situation.If we follow Hudood laws to punish the crime,we should also follow islamic guidelines to prevent it.And prevention is better than cure.Its 21st century.In olden times,love was all about sending love letters and looking in veils.But nowadays,love is all about modern technology and it would be ridiculous to deny the reason and logic.So,we are and will become more vulnerable to committing such crimes if we dont respond according to the need of the hour according to islamic principles.

Aye Carumba ! how many toes can u step on in one day dude....

Mr Rahman... now that I know your age, much has been explained... (also your location was a help too)

You can sit there and pretend to be what you want, but you ARE arrogant, judgmental and SO full of 'it' !! Get a grip on your emotions man! you sound more like a raving doomssayer than anything else.

But.. alas, ure only 17..... dancing queen. young and sweet only seventeeeeen Oooo yea aaay..... (sorry i got side tracked by the ABBA song )

Bhai SAAB !!!!!!!!! the time has come for you to realise that you are ticking everyone off. This does not go well with your vast knowledge of religion. What good is all that knowledge if you cant hold an audience as lovely as ours?? !!

So I suggest to you jinaaab..... the best way to channel your energies is to learn the polite, charming and appeasing ways and manners of the Tablighi Jamaat......... go with them for a CHilla of 4 months (or years as some would like )

But seriously Mr Rahman, dont waste your good knowledge in forums and chatrooms....... go out and do real good.......... your "nahi anill munkar" would be best served out in the real world. You are our saviour brother rahman !!!!!! come preach to us and we shall follow you off the edge of the world !!!!!!!


But for heavens sake, not here........ and not like this.......


Hope you will wisen up.



P.S. Can you not threaten us with any more of your posts in this thread?? Can I get a Hell yeah Clocko??

__________________
ninety nine percent of bureaucrats give the rest of us a bad name !

Has everyone given his advices to me or is someone still left? I want to continue my discussion on Hudood Ordinance now. Tu barahe mehrbani jis jis ko nasihatain karni hon mujhe private message kar lein coz this is spoiling several threads.

@Dritte Reich
Thank you for your advices.
BUT, I have every right to discuss things here. I will continue my discussion, because, I want to unveil the truth, whether you like or not. I don't need to satisfy everyone before discussing things. Several people before had given good comments on my posts here in this thread.

And those who want to call my posts "scrap" , which I made after investing my time & enegry, should go on coz they have yet to come up with rational arguments to answer off my "scrap".

As far as my attitude is concerned, I know with whom to be humble & with whom to be sarcastic. I use laughter, sarcasm, etc. as effective tools in my discussion with those who deserve it.

Now, please if someone has to criticize my attitude & behaviour, then send me a private message. I want to get back to the issue of Hudood Ordinance now. This thread has spoiled a lot already.

@GoodOmen
Have you forgiven me? Are you still willing to discuss Hudood Ordinance?

Two "major flaws" which you have pointed out in the Ordinance viz. rape converted to adultery & no difference b/w rape & Zina, have already been discussed here. I suggest you read my article Lies & Distortions by Geo TV about Hudood Ordinance.
Furthermore, please read the text of the original Offence of Zina (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance (VII of 1979) It has 22 sections. If anyone can prove from the text of the Ordinance that it does not differentiate b/w rape & zina or that allegation of rape is considered confession under the Ordinance, then I SHALL REWARD HIM UPTO ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND RUPPEES. Specifically, on the later issue, I suggest that you read my last post on Page 2 of this thread.

Remaining points shall be answered soon. (Insha Allah!)

Regards,
Abdul Rehman.

@Vanity Unleashed

Great post! Excellent points.

Maybe that's why a severe punishment has been prescribed by the Shari'ah for Muhsan criminals. (Wallahu Aalam!)

Regards,
Abdul Rehman.

That's your knowledge about the Hudood Ordinances. They are in English and they were prepared in Arabic after 2 years debate. I discussed this in detail. I can't re-write same things 10 times over & over again. See my posts on Page 2 of this thread: #14 & #20

This is what I call pure ignorance and getting fooled by the media. Tazir in the Hudood Ordinance gives judges the authority to punish rapists when four witnesses are not available, on the basis of any evidence like DNA test, MLR (Medicolegal report), etc. If you remove tazir, then women will need four Shar'ai witnesses or voluntary confession to prove rape, or else rapist will have a free hand.
Decide for yourself, which option is humane!

Except for a few NGOs, most ppl are talking about a few parts of the Hudood Ordinance. But, it is important to understand that those parts are the backbone of the Ordinance. Because, PPP & MQM want that a person committing zina should not be punished unless there are atleast four Shar'ai witnesses, which is not possible in 90% of the cases. To protect adulterers in the remaining 10% cases, they demand that if any of the four Shar'ai witnesses does not qualify to conditions of Tazkiyah al-Shuhood or the judge himself is convinced with their statements, all of them including the complainant should be immediately whipped 80 times. So, this will allow adulterers to escape punishment in the remaining 10% cases.
We should understand that tazir for zina and zina-bil-jabr are extremely important for justice. Removing them is like throwing one's self in a ditch!
I will make a detailed post (Insha Allah) in another thread regarding the Criminal Law Amendment (Protection of Women) Bill, 2006.

Old foolish argument my dear. Read my last post on page 2 please.

If you read my article Lies & Distortions by Geo TV about Hudood Ordinance, you will have already realized what's really going on. If not, I just reproduce the relevant extract here from pages 11 to 13 of that article.

<----------------------------- EXTRACT STARTS HERE ------------------------>

5. Women in jail
One of the mountainous misconceptions being spread about the Hudood Ordinance is that it is due to the Ordinance that women are dwelling in jails. The NCSW established a Special Committee to review the Hudood Ordinances in 2002, which wrote in its report, on page 3 that 80% of the women, languishing in jail, are due to the Hudood Ordinance. Geo TV also re-iterates the same; in fact, the whole Jang group does this.[4]
Are women resting in jail for several years due to Hudood Ordinance? Can this be fixed by repealing Hudood Ordinance? Are these people gone mad or are they fooling the ignorant?! The Hudood Ordinance neither deals with the lodging of FIRs, nor does it deal with how the cases are to be heard. Therefore, connecting these issues with the Hudood Ordinance or to label it as a ‘torment’ of the Hudood Ordinance is nothing but a white lie!
The Hudood Ordinance merely deals with the following issues:
(a) Definition of sexual crimes
(b) Prescribing punishment for these sexual crimes
(c) Proof required for these crimes
It does NOT deal with the following issues:
(a) Lodging of FIRs
(b) Keeping women in jail or five star hotels or anywhere else
(c) Slow judicial process
(d) Hearing of pending cases, or hearing being too slow, etc.
It may be pertinent to note here that this issue of women lying in jail is a ‘blessing’ of the Code of Criminal Procedure (Act V of 1898) which was not made by a ‘revengeful’ Zia-ul-Haq or ‘idiot’ ulema. This was made by the British in 1898 themselves and today, channels like BBC, CNN, etc. and of course, rogue Muslim channels (especially, the filthy Jang group) are blaming the Hudood Ordinance for this!
Someone may stand up to ask that before 1979, women were not languishing in jails, so, the Hudood Ordinance must be connected with this issue. The answer to this stupid argument is that the only thing which the Hudood Ordinance did was to declare zina a crime, because, in the original PPC, zina bil raza is NOT considered a crime!!! Neither is zina bil raza considered a crime, nor is there any punishment for drinking wine and/or intoxicating liquor. Thus whenever you find anyone [who has studied the Ordinance] repeating the above argument, know that he is really asking to decriminalize zina! (God forbid!)
These women are languishing in jails for so many years because of the outdated slow judiciary process, due to which the cases are never heard. At the beginning of 2005, there were 123,640 pending hudood cases; out of which, more than 78,833 cases were that of the Prohibition Order alone! It is due to the Code of Criminal Procedure (henceforth, CrPC) and some other defects in our judicial system, which has caused the hearing of cases to become overly slow. Thus these women are lying in jails because they were arrested, but, the cases have not been heard; they consist of both—innocent and guilty.
I would also like to ask my friends that there are several prisoners, men as well as women, lying in jails for years, because, their cases have not heard uptil now. In fact, in a few cases, even after freeing the prisoners, they still remain in prison. If a person is being held in jail, because, the police arrested him/her for a cognizable offence, punishable under any section of the PPC: will these people repeal the PPC for solving that problem?
In fact, suggesting a repeal of the Hudood Ordinance as a remedy for the problem of women lying in jail, which is actually due to CrPC, can rightly be explained with the following example. A person got infection in a certain organ of his body; instead of curing the infection, he thought that cutting off the whole organ will solve the ‘infection problem’ for good! Only a fool & ignorant will be happy with such a solution, because, doing so will cause him to lose a vital part of his body & even cause his death—alongwith the elimination of the infection.
Surprisingly enough, this is what the NGOs and the media has been asking for i.e. to solve the problem of slow judiciary process, stop hearing cases unless in rare cases—in Zina, don’t lodge an FIR unless four male Muslim truthful witnesses are available. This is akin to saying that in 90% of the cases, the adulterers and fornicators should be given an ‘open sex’ environment.
Their recommendation is further that if any of the four witnesses do not qualify ‘tazkiyah al-shuhood’ or if the judge is not satisfied with the testimonies, he may acquit the accused & subject all witnesses and the complainant to a punishment of 80 strokes of lashes! A deep analysis of this recommendation reveals that this is aimed at discouraging people from even reporting the remaining 10% cases, by terrorizing them of being subject to qazf. For example, if four people saw the heinous act, they will still abstain from testifying of having seen it, because, if even a single witness did not qualify the requirements of ‘tazkiyah al-shuhood,’ all of them will be punished with 80 stripes!
Last, but not the least, we would also like to shed light on a very oft-repeated argument that 80% of the women languishing in jails, are due to Zina Ordinance. We already discussed that the Hudood Ordinance is not responsible for this, but, let me warn you further. Don’t get confused by this figure! It does NOT reveal anything about the number of women in jail; it only shows the cause of being in jail. But, wait!
It is still wrong to say that 80% women are in jail after being arrested for zina. In the NWFP jails, during July 2003, the number of women languishing in jail for trial for narcotics cases was 72, whereas, the number of those for trial under all four hudood ordinances was 56.[5] From even the hudood cases, a major portion is that of the prohibition cases and furthermore, the total number of women in jail was 172. This means that less than 20% (not 80%) of the women languishing in jail were waiting trial under zina ordinance. [Source of these statistics is a report prepared by the Women Aid Trust.]
Similarly, during 1988, the number of women prisoners in various jails of Punjab, was 657; out of these, 306 were languishing for zina cases. [6] This, again, gives a figure of 46%, which is nearly half of the figure claimed by feminist NGOs!

Note:-
Gen. Musharraf promulgated the Law Reforms Order, 2006 this year, which added a new section 156-B to the CrPC. According to this section, zina (not zina-bil-jabr) cases will not be investigated by a police officer who is lower in rank than a SP (superintendent.) Furthermore, no person shall be arrested for zina by the police until an arrest warrant has been issued by the magistrate of a court of competent jurisdiction.
Discussing this new provision, promulgated by Gen. Musharraf, falls outside the scope of this article. However, I would like to comment here that by enforcing this order, he has contradicted & falsified his own claims, which he made while enforcing the new Police Order, 2002!

<----------------------------- EXTRACT ENDS HERE --------------------------->

End Notes
[4]: For example, see The Daily Dawn, Vol. LX, No. 275, Issue of Saturday, October 7, 2006, p.5; How Hudood Law Is Hurting Society by Roshaneh Zafar
[5]: Interim Report on the Hudood Ordinances, In’aamullah, Khalid Masud, CII (Council of Islamic Ideology) 2006, p.176—click here to download it.
[6]: Ibid, p.175

A few things from your post are still left. I reproduce here again what you wrote, for reference:-

This is not related with the Hudood Ordinance at all, but, I know that these things are quite serious. Alas! Our governments (including Zia-ul-Haq's) have not taken effective measures for the proper enforcement of these Ordinances.
I am reminded of an incident here. There is a trust made by the government for giving funds to women who have been abused, raped, etc. Recently, it was revealed that the Law Minister, Wasi Zafar, used to spend that fund for his own purposes, rather than giving relief to women.
Who is the criminal? Who is responsible for this? Surely, not the Hudood Ordinance.

So, it is clear from your statement that most women who lie in jails for years, due to the Police & CrPC, are relieved by the Hudood Ordinance through acquittal.

From the above discussion, it becomes crystal-clear that actually, the law-enforcing agencies are the tool used by ppl to harass women. Consequently, they need to be corrected.
Let me point out here that even the CrPC does not allow police to arrest someone without sufficient ground or evidence. In fact, after arresting, they are bound to present the person before a Magistrate within a short period of time. But, due to the slow judiciary process & corruption, this period extends to many years & women lose their reputation.

OPEN CHALLENGE!!!
Whosoever succeeds in locating any section of the Offence of Zina (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance (VII of 1979) which is causing women to remain in jail for several years before hearing of the case, shall be awarded by me with ONE MILLION RUPPEES!!! Go & search. I'm waiting here.
[Note: Plz don't criticize me again for my "childish" behaviour. I love this style of discussion, because, it is effective.]

Remaining points are due on me.

Thank God! The thread is getting back to the original issue. Some ppl succeeded in diverting the reader's attention from the main issue to subsidiary issues, but, I am back with my arguments. And by the Grace of God, I hope that those ppl won't have any intellectual or rational answer to my arguments.

Note: The article Lies & Distortions by Geo TV about Hudood Ordinance can be either downloaded or read online.

Regards,
Abdul Rehman.

Dear Fellows.
AOA

@Clockwise & @Dritte Reich
I understand that Abdul Rehman had comit mistake due to whatever you call (either young enough or sweet seventeen or less mature), but the GREATEST thing is the way he has accepted it. The acceptance of his MISTAKE is what to me makes him MATURE enough and place him above you.
Now, see how you replied him. What language you used?

"You can sit there and pretend to be what you want, but you ARE arrogant, judgmental and SO full of 'it' !! Get a grip on your emotions man! you sound more like a raving doomssayer than anything else.
But.. alas, ure only 17..... dancing queen. young and sweet only seventeeeeen Oooo yea aaay..... (sorry i got side tracked by the ABBA song)

This is what you call maturity?

Regarding the issue, all what i would like to say is now when the guy has accepted his mistake openly Alhumdulillah, now you have following choices gien by the ADMINS;

1. Remain in the chatroom. If you answer or proove something on SOLID BASIS, prove it. Never bother if the guy is young enough. Look what he is talking and what he is referring. You should have gutts to discuss this with him.

2. You can still remain in the Chatroom. Just read them and if you dont want to comment, dont do it. You are not forced to reply the post.

3. Leave the Chatroom (for this POST). Easy one i guess for thoese who dont have courage to change thier point of view.

'Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.' - Ralph Waldo Emerson Journals, 1838

@ Abdul Rehman
I also thought to write you with personaly message (regarding some previous posts) to be very polite and cool (specially discussing relegious issues). It would Inshallah help you convince others more and more in the light of Quran and Sunnah. And i must say i am very happy that you have openly accepted the positive points of the members (although some of MATURE SENIORS went agressive). Keep doing good and pray Allah for humbleness.

Mas' Salam

STRAIN2

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The Demand Of Faith Is To Bow Down After Hearing The Command. Faith Cannot Co-Exist With Ifs And Buts.