Wa alaikum as salam!
Brother STRAIN2!
I hope that this will be the last post pertaining to this issue. Let us bury this issue.
But, I am worried, because, GoodOmen has not yet forgiven me, nor has she come back for discussion.

Another thing is that you (STRAIN2) did not say anything about my posts on the Hudood Ordinance. Since, this thread is meant for discussion on Hudood Ordinance, I hope you will give your comments.

I think if the admins delete the previous posts consisting of mere emotions, that would make this thread much more neat & clean.

Hope to hear something from GreatOmen & others...

Regards,
Abdul Rehman.

Strain2

You wrote this at the end of your scrap:

@ Abdul Rehman
I also thought to write you with personaly message (regarding some previous posts) to be very polite and cool (specially discussing relegious issues). It would Inshallah help you convince others more and more in the light of Quran and Sunnah. And i must say i am very happy that you have openly accepted the positive points of the members (although some of MATURE SENIORS went agressive). Keep doing good and pray Allah for humbleness.

Is this by any way different from what i had written in my scrap???

As far as religious issues are concerned and Abdul Rehmans arguments are concerned....please go back to my scrap and see if i criticised those??? What i have objected to is the unpleasant manner of referring to other and their arguments. So please don't tell me to come back with solid arguments.

Why should i leave a thread and go else where? I have every right to be here and every right to express my opinion. If i were to disagree on the religious issue being discussed i would do so but if reading the scraps makes me feel uncomfortable and unhappy because of someone's ATTITUDE....i WILL object to it. So please don't tell me leave the particular thread.

STRAIN2 and Abdul Rehman

Yes it is indeed a virtue that he accepted his mistake and apologized. Thank you for your apology. But apologies have to be condition less my friends. Abdul Rehman you wrote:

My age is less and perhaps, it pinches you why a younger person can leave you or someone else speechless. Sorry again if I made another mistake.

Life is alot more than competition and rendering the other speechless. Life is about respecting others and being respected in return. I would not care if you have rendered me speechless but i would care if you earned respect. Age and experience has taught me that it more important to be respected than liked.

As far as your debating style contention is concerned...i can safely say that i have had countless debating experiences in REAL life, even on international forums....there is NO debating style where you demean your opponent. The judges immediately take offence if you are being sarcastic and haughty. Subtlety and tact alongwith a measure of respect for your opponents views are very essential ingredients of a good debater. So please try to take criticism positively as these things will help you a long way in life.

Please SCRAP does not mean worthless stuff, it is another word for post and in NO WAY in the negative sense.....as in scrapbook....ring any bells???

Dritto

Oh yeah!

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Luck comes to those who Believe!

Yaar... stop this... This thread is for Hudood Ordinance and now, it is filled with so much useless material. The length of the thread is stretching with useless things which will not help the reader or anyone seeking knowledge about the Ordinance. These things are not even close to Hudood Ordinance.
PLEASE finish this issue right here. My posts regarding Hudood Ordinance have got lost in this irrelevant mixture.

Thanx Everyone..but now that i know your age..lemme just forget it...anyways i didnt learn watever i know about hudood through media...i know what i am talking about ...i know about the proposed changes..and many issues regarding that..so dont even start kiddo...i i know much more then u can even think about but this is not the place to discuss that and i am a dignified officer...so just leave it at that....this is the last word from me about this..

Plz Grow Up..

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To climb steep hills requires slow pace at first

Abdul Rehman...i dont have any heart feelings...now lets not talk about this....i wrote my earlier post without reading your private message...lets just leave it...

Good luck

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To climb steep hills requires slow pace at first

Thanks for coming back & forgiving me.

Why don't you want to discuss the Hudood Ordinance with me? You wrote many things which you show that you have misconceptions about the Ordinance. That's what I want to remove.
Please be broad-minded and discuss things with me. I would love a discussion on this issue. If you don't want to discuss openly, we can discuss through MSN or Yahoo! messengers or wherever you wish. But, simply leaving the discussion will not be beneficial to anyone.
Moreover, I consider it my duty to remove misconceptions & unveil deception. I gave you link to the full text of the Ordinance.

And I know that you are a medical student, making post about the Hudood Ordinance on the basis of notes of Toxicology & Forensic Medicine. See how smart I am!
(Intelligent guess... may be wrong too!!!)

Abdul Rehman.

No i m not a medical student...and the reason i am not discussing the Ordinance is not coz..i have any problems regarding ordinance..and i dont need the text of the full ordinance...the reason i dont wanna discuss this issue..is that i might say something i shudnt as a dignfied officer...
and plz i really dont have time for this i have serious work routine..and have to prepare for CSS 2007..

so....excuse me
Bbye!

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To climb steep hills requires slow pace at first

My guess was wrong... actually, your post seemed similar to Toxicology Notes which my brother studies. (He is in KMC, 3rd year.)
Okay ... I understand you don't have much time. I have also wasted quite a lot of time on forum. Good luck for your exam!

(I may write a few more things in reply to your post, not for you, but, for other readers--to clarify a few issues.)

Regards,
Abdul Rehman.

:

can you believe this guy clocko !!!!!!!

Oh man I am in stitches here!!!!!!!

reminds me of one of the sultan rahi movies gone overboard

aaaah the diversity of people we have. thats wat makes our country so great nai?

Especially when they SO desperately want other people to listen to them, but cant take a word themselves

hai hai.... baycharay ........ !

Clocko wese I think there is no point in pursuing this... you know what science says about hormonally charged adolescents who are yet to drop their cricket balls. trying SO hard to fit into society which in a few months would have them arrested and sent on a one way trip to Cuba anytime soon

tsk tsk..... if only our sincere "scraps" were respected earlier on....... to itna collateral damage na karna parta


oh well... with due apologies: forgive and forget............. or either one! I choose forget

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ninety nine percent of bureaucrats give the rest of us a bad name !

In respect of the debate on Hudood Ordinance


STRAIn man....... I missed your post ! just saw it. great!! more ammunition for our word fight !! WOOHOO !!!!! and man... you share the same arrogant "holier than thou" attitude and therefore command no more respect.

I never professed maturity bro! But I say it the way it is. My beef is not about what particular comment he made or apologized for.... it is with the attitude that the neem hakim khatra-e-jan pseudo scholars display around here. If u want me to spell it out for u, lemme know ! sheeesh...


Just to show I dont just come into discussions to spin em off course, let me share the views of Mr Javed Ghamidi, one of the most prolific researchers on islamic thought, language, fiqh and jurisprudence. Now Mr A.R.rahman, I know you do not hold him in high esteem, and I think u are entitled to your opinion, but for once................. just once............... if you feel like you know something that disagrees with what I have quoted from Mr Ghamidi, can you not get personal like you have on previous occasions? debate the issue man. dont accuse the scholars.

In fact, i would be greatly indebted to you if you dont respond at all, but seeing how you are the divine saviour of all musalmans whether they want to be saved or not (reminds you of the christian anglican methodology of religious profession no!), I dont know if you can restrain urself!

here goes:

-------------------


Mr Javed Ahmed Ghamidi opines that the 'Hudood Ordinances’ are not only inappropriate from the perspective of the manner of their enforcement but they also have certain basic defects which render them rescindable.



He asserts that the only right channel for the enforcement of laws is the Shuraa (Assembly) of a state. It is utterly inapt to impose laws on people by the arbitrary authority of the President. Each law needs to be discussed in the parliament before it is decided to be enforced especially when there are many interpretations of the actual provisions of a law. The members of the parliament should be allowed to debate and deliberate the various interpretations made by the Muslim scholars of the punishments delineated in the Shari’ah. These members have been selected by people of Pakistan to perform the aforementioned task. To bypass them in order to enforce a law immediately, without their approval, is the egregious mistake that a state could ever make.



The points which have not been given due consideration – or simply ignored – in drafting these ordinances are enumerated below. It is obvious that these points entail that the ordinances in question should be immediately withdrawn and a fresh attempt should be made as suggested above for their enforcement again.



1. It needs to be noted that the Holy Qur’an has ordained punishments regarding five crimes only, namely



i. Muharabah or Fasaad Fil Ard (Taking the law into one’s own hands or spreading disorder in the land)

ii. Murder or inflicting injury

iii. Zinaa (Extra-marital sex)

iv. Qadhaf (to accuse a person, of good repute, of Zinaa)

v. Theft



Therefore, legislation in the perspective of the Shari’ah shall only be done regarding these crimes only.



2-A. In the five crimes enumerated above, it should be appreciated that Allah has mentioned the greater as well as the lesser form of punishment except for Zinaa (Extra-marital sex) and Theft. Furthermore, while describing these two crimes, the Holy Qur’an has used adjectives to denote the criminals, that is to say, Azzaani and Azzaaniyah for the male and the female involved in extra-marital sex; and Assaariq and Assaariqah for the male and female thief. In Arabic language, Mr Ghamidi contends, when adjective is used to denote a noun, it implies intensity and ultimate nature of the thing described. This means that the adjectives used to signify the criminals of extra-marital sex and theft evidently show that these two crimes must have been committed in their intense and ultimate form to entail the punishments ordained. In other words, the punishment mentioned in these both cases shall only be meted out when the criminals have committed the crime in its intense and ultimate form. Otherwise, the court has the authority to give any kind of lesser punishment which it deems fit.



2-B. What entails lesser punishment is not the degree up to which the crime is proven – which of course is an absurd notion. On the contrary, it is the specific circumstances of the criminal in which he has committed the crime and the nature of the crime committed. A court has the authority to withhold punishment or give a lesser form of punishment considering the extenuating circumstances or the nature of the crime committed.



3. A crime will either stand proven or not. There is no concept of a crime being proven eighty percent or ninety percent etc. It is equally erroneous to believe that a crime will be ‘more’ proven if evidence is brought forward in one particular manner and will be ‘less’ if another sort of evidence is propounded. The crime is either proven or there arise some doubts, of which the benefit should always go to the accused.



4. The Shari’ah has not instituted some specific manner in order to prove a crime. It should be proven with whatever evidence that appeals to sense and reason. The Shari’ah has only asked for four witnesses in case of Qadhaf, whereby a person accuses another person, of good repute, of Zinaa. The Holy Qur’an says that this accuser should bring forth four eyewitnesses in order to have the case registered. The word, registered, is stressed to show that these witnesses are required to register the case though the alleged crime will still be proven by any means acceptable to the court of law. The underlying reason for this requirement is to make registration of such cases difficult thereby giving another chance to the criminals, who have good character otherwise, yet have gotten involved in the filth of Zinaa.



5. The distinction of married and unmarried person in case of punishment for Zinaa is not correct. The Shari’ah describes punishment for Zinaa without any distinction of marital status, i.e. one hundred stripes. The aforementioned distinction arose because of not properly understanding and deciding about some Ahaadith. The punishment of Rajam (i.e. stoning to death) may only be given to the criminals of spreading disorder in land – if the court so decides – which may also include habitual criminals of Zinaa or those guilty of rape.



6. Killing in the name of honor is as heinous as any other murder, even more so. The state should legislate to put an end to this abhorrent crime instead of attempting to accommodate it.



7. In case of murder, if the court is of the view that the heirs of the murdered person are in favor of the murderer by virtue of any relation or vested interest or that they have been intimidated to forgive the murderer, it should consider the state, instead of these heirs, as a claimant of Qisaas. Forgiveness should only be given by the state if circumstances so require.



8. In case of Diyat, Islamic Shari’ah has not fixed any amount of Diyat. On the contrary, it has allowed the Muslims to determine any amount that should be paid as Diyat keeping in perspective the specific economic and socio-cultural environment.



9. Islam has also not fixed any specific manner for the distribution of Diyat. The court has the authority to give the amount to the most deserved person from among the heirs or distribute it among them as it deems appropriate.



10. The notion of Tazkiyyatu Shahood is utterly fallacious and baseless. It is in the jurisdiction of the court to determine of what person’s witness is sound and of what person’s witness is arbitrary because of his partiality etc.


http://www.al-mawrid.org/Content/Sea...teria=AllWords

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ninety nine percent of bureaucrats give the rest of us a bad name !