@khurram

yes i agreed but if i say that u r 100% true in ur talk then it doesnt mean that ur appraoch is right..m sorry...
u talked about muslim regime ..u took examles from 12th to current century....ur talk will be completed if u put 6th centuary in this frame..in the start of islam when people were true muslims,they follow all the rules n regulations set by nabi SAW...
when muslims were more in number..give me even a single example.
in strength,in that time's technology,in number of horses,camels which were used in war..muslims were ver few ...
It was their true IMAN which showed them right path....
i m also have the same point of view that we should take decisions according to the situation..but at the same time we should examine our decisions in the light of islam n quraan..
Mughal emperors and others r criminals in a sense if u ask me....when the world was getting information from our muslims scholars books and research they were bz in poetry,women,and in building huge forts,and palaces.....
first of all we r muslims...Our decline started since that day when we left islam..in true meaning..what r true meaning??
stopped taking guidance from quraan....hided Quraan in a silk covering and placed in Almirah.
What is guarantee that USA will not attack Pakistan..and what u think only killing people is war..USA is in a state of war against Muslims and specially Pakistan since 9/11..
destroying our economy,culture,n many more....this is also war..
n past governments were also of bad reputation..but now the situation is getting more worst...
what about our atomic programme??what happened to dr Qadeer and other scientists????Defence is the majour requirement for a country..now who will wanna to serve pakistan ...when the end is like Dr Qadeer..
Now the USA demands to cooperate with india in crushing Kahmiri Mujahideen..so its means we surrender and accept that jammu is not a part of pakistan.....n american demands will incrase day by day just like a nakhrayli Mahbouba..jo kabhi b khush nahi hoti phir b...
there r USa troops in Pakistan,they come in pakistan whenever they want...we didnt appoint soldiers on Afghan border in the past but now several lakhs soldiers r there...
I accept that since 1948 pakistan is in deep deep troubles...
have good relations with all in the world but dont do this on the sacrifice of our own islam and priorities....
Believe me whether there is govt of Nawaz sharef,baynzir aor any general ..they would do the same as the musharraf is doing b/caz all of them have fear of America rather than having fear of God..
If mushrraf is true ..and take bold steps for the betterment of pakistan then y yet kala bagh dam is not constructed??y he dosent use his power there??
the only thing make a list of American demands
then think what if left in the bottom ..
there may b something but that wouldnt a country named Pakistan..

what u think USA will accept us as his ally..
His behaviour is like a boss who interferes in our personal affairs..our personal laws go to USa for approval.....can pakistan have courage to object against any USA law ...is turkey added to Eurpean Union..Turkey did every thing which mushrraf is doing right now???But whenever we r muslims they will take us as their enemy..this is not a stage of 2 countries negotiation,,,this is WAR between ISLAM n KUFFAR....but yet on the side of islam no leader is emerged...so v r moving here n there..just like a child who has forgotten the add of his house.. n dont know where to go..
the day will come when Khalid Bin walid RA like general will come...the day is not so far..until the arriaval of that day we would have to face more difficulties.....since it is start......Agay agay daikhye hota hai kia

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"If I am right why should I bend, let the other side bend" Quaid e Azam

US has accepted us an ally of him. It is totally out of question that it ll accept us or not. Yeah its behaviour is like a boss, i admit this. But i also admit that Pakistan is getting benefit of this alliance in one way or another.

It is a fight b/w Islam and Kuffar and we have to compromise on some of the things but not all of them.

Regards

__________________
The world is my oyster!

Well you all have said it like I was expecting it to be the Pakistani way always taking thing in negative way how many you suggested any solution to these problems none but I have different views. Most of you people think in a very narrow prospective you should open up your minds think of environmental variable involved in the situation as for me I fully support the government of Musharaf. Most well most you people would not agree with that fine to me for them I give you a choice to pick a point let us share our views let see we have a common ground or not u r welcome

Pakistanis are pretty optimistic. Dont make an insult of them buy saying that they think negatively.

Here, fisrt of all we are trying to dicuss the problem and its +ve and -ve impacts. Then we ould be in a better position to conclude this thread by putting fwrd the solutions. Here ppl are admiring as well as censuring the Musharaf's rule over Pakistan. Let us see which ay the wind flows and what we conclude in the end.

It is good that u are looking at the bright side of the picture, kindly add the solution to the negative points highlighted by all of us. We 'll really appreiate it.

Regards

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The world is my oyster!

salam! musharaf is not a bad choice coz we r not having any other genius man like him coz he kn0ows very well how 2 psychologically manipulate d others like bush n manmohan singh in havana that mr singh agreed 2 to restart peace process n even bush has praised him as a great leader but there r some weaknesses him as well he is a liar infact in some cases coz he promised 2 shed his uniform so many times but he has never done this but at d end i wana say that no 1 is perfect in this world.nothing is either good or bad but thinkings make it so but i agreee that musharaf is a hobson's choice coz at present moment we r not having any other smart man like to run d business of this state that is facing very hard challenges afs far a his book is concerned he is presenting d people of our own country in a bad manner this not agood practise it will effect our image in abroad that is already very bad altough he is narrating true events as d event of supreme court in 1997 but i think it is not a good practise to revear our own secrets 2 d others.

AssalamOalikum,

Khurram Bhai Jan, you seem to be quite mature in your discussion. I am just diverting the discussion is some other dimension of leadership.

Mr.Ghandi ones beautifully stated,

"Leadership is the capability of translation or conversion of your vision into reality".

Now, recall the all perspectives of Quaid's vision and visualize that how far it has taken a shape of reality ?

By quoting Mr.Ghandi, please don't assume me as pro-indian but i look at this world very unbiasedly and we should, of course, if we want to excel in this ever challanging world because "ostrich approach" can no longer help us in standing in the line of civilized and developed countries.

Looking forward to your valuable thoughts,

Kind Regards,
Your's Brother

@ NouR

I accept your point of view regarding early true spirit of Islam. But we were talking of internal law and order situations. First ever disturbance in internal Law and order situation can be traced back to as early as the time of third Caliph Hazrat Usman (RA). Many Muslims had protested against the Khilafat of Hazrat Usman (RA) and at the end he was murdered in the hands of a Muslim.

The next Caliph was Hazrat Ali (RA). His Governer of Seria Hazrat Amir Maawia did not accept the authority of Hazrat Ali (RA) and he waged a war against Hazrat Ali (RA) with the demand of handing over the killers of Hazrat Usman (RA) to him. The war broke out in the bettle field of 'Siffin' and so this war is known as war of Siffin. Some prominent companions of Prophet (PBUH) took the side of Amir Maawia in that war. This bettle remained undecisive due to clever diplomacy of Amir Maawia because when he anticipated his defeat in war, he then raised the demand of settling down the issue as per the teachings of Quran. Hazrat Ali (RA) accepted his demand but a group of extremist Muslims (now known as 'Khawaraj') out of the army of Hazrat Ali (RA) did not accept the decision of Hazrat Ali (RA). That group i.e. Khawarjities, blamed Hazrat Ali (RA) for not following the teachings of Quran. After it the group of Khawarjities launched a gurilla type war against Hazrat Ali (RA). Khawarjities made conspiracy plan of killing Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Maawia (RA) both and two different persons were given the responsibility of killing both the personalities separately. The person whose assignment was to kill Hazrat Maawia could not succeed in his mission but the other person succeeded in killing Hazrat Ali (RA). So the fourt Caliph of Islam also murdered in the hands of an extremist Muslim.

Then Hazrat Ameer Maawia took over the Khilafat and founded the Ommayad regime of Khilafat. Remember that he had fought war against Hazrat Ali (RA) with the demand of handing over killers of Hazrat Usman (RA). It was so because Hazrat Usman (RA) also belonged to Ommayad tribe.

Anyway, later Ommayad ruler Yazeed killed Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) and others in the famous war of Karbala. In this way Hazrat Imam Hussain and his pious family members also murdered in the hands of Muslims i.e. Ommayad rulers.

Hijaj Bin Yousaf was the Governer of Iraq under the regime of Ommayad rulers. He is famous for his cruelties against his own Muslim population. He had killed hundereds of thousands of his own Muslim people.

So I think Gen. Musharraf is not doing as much bad as did those early extremist Muslims like Khawarjities and some Ommayad rulers. Which level of law and order situation you are trying to find under the rule of General Musharraf, is not possible to be found in a real world. So please come to real world and try to think about the positive aspects of our present situation. Historical facts suggest that Muslims themselves have killed many of their own prominent leaders. Might be Musharraf be able to stand against external forces like USA etc. provided he gets some relaxation from the internal threats.

There is internal peace in USA just because they are having control over major Economic resources of world and so their people are satisfied. They have managed to get this control due to their superior technology. What Muslims should do? Instead of uselessly opposing their rulers, Muslims should do efforts for the adoptation and invention of new and better technology. Values of Muslim culture are far better than those of Western culture. Extremist Muslims are just destroying the image of Islam in the eyes of whole world. But Musharraf is doing good efforts because he is trying to improve the image of Islam. The true values of peaceful Islam would definitely defeat the inferior values of contemporary western world. So this is the time to promote the true values of Islam i.e. the way of Hazrat Usman (RA), Hazrat Ali (RA), Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) etc. instead of false extremist values of early extremist Muslims like Khawarjities and some Ommayad rulers etc. Try to think over these issues.

Thanks!

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Where is the SIGNATURE....????

Respected Nour, i absolutely agree with you and after reading your post it seems to me that you have given sufficient thought to your ideas and question but unfortunately your points were not answered in that way, which was desired.

Quote from Respected Khurram,

Dear brother, you have lost your dress, script, literature, language and eastern moral and religious values. Is it the soft and progressive image of Islam? we are merely duplicating the enlightened moderation of so called progressive Turkey.

One of my Indian's friends said, " i don't see any dissimilarity between Pakistani and Indian culture. Since pakistan was carved out as an islamic ideological state but neither there is any Islamic Ideology and nor has any outlook of islam" .

But it is very melancholic that we still fall in list of Top Failed States.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm

Kind Regards,

AssalamOalikum,

Khurram Bhai Jan, you seem to be quite mature in your discussion. I am just diverting the discussion is some other dimension of leadership.

Mr.Ghandi ones beautifully stated,

"Leadership is the capability of translation or conversion of your vision into reality".

Now, recall the all perspectives of Quaid's vision and visualize that how far it has taken a shape of reality ?

By quoting Mr.Ghandi, please don't assume me as pro-indian but i look at this world very unbiasedly and we should, of course, if we want to excel in this ever challanging world because "ostrich approach" can no longer help us in standing in the line of civilized and developed countries.

Looking forward to your valuable thoughts,

Kind Regards,
Your's Brother