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  #11  
Old Wednesday, August 08, 2012
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Originally Posted by mhmmdkashif View Post
There are other hindrances as well. Even if judiciary, military and other un-elected centers of power work within their limits, still present parliamentary republican form of government, as it exists in Pakistan, will not be able to deliver anything and they will crawl into others' (judiciary etc) space. It is not easy to separate state and politics in Pakistan because Pakistani is a deeply divided and backward society and each division is firmly entrenched in people's minds. You need a more controlled form of democracy that can separate state and politics, and for that you need new institutions which might sound monarchy like .
What good can be done by separating politics from state? Give any single example of a country where it has been practised and succeeded?
Politics is the only way people of Pakistan, you an me can take part in the state affairs. Monarchy in the form of Ayub era, Zia era and to some exetent Musharraf era failed because majority of people of Pakistan have faith in democracy.
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Originally Posted by sabahatbhutta View Post
What good can be done by separating politics from state? Give any single example of a country where it has been practised and succeeded?
Politics is the only way people of Pakistan, you an me can take part in the state affairs. Monarchy in the form of Ayub era, Zia era and to some exetent Musharraf era failed because majority of people of Pakistan have faith in democracy.
Ok here are a few examples. Monarchy still exists in Britain, Spain, and Japan.. France has semi-presidential system.. US has separated legislature and executive.. These are some examples of models of democracy. You do infact need a real check on power assumed through democratic process, not in metaphorical sense like 'people are sovereign' 'people's representatives can do anything they want' and slogans like that . It will never work that way.. Politicians are after all, politicians. They belong to variety of backgrounds, mostly capital holding ones , and ultimately seek what suits them. If you even post police and other state functionaries on their wishes then,,,, how will it ever work for common people??? For example yesterday two groups fought in our town and some people were seriously injured, both went to police and it was decided that a 'respected' local politician will decide the matter with his 'wisdom' (something commonly known as 'jirga'), now what about the law of country, where does that go in situations like these??? If you don't build an institution which can put a check on politicians then these military and other adventists (or opportunists, whatever you call them) will continue doing what they are doing because politicians will always be the same. Don't be an idealist sis, think from all the perspectives.


I am trying to make it more understandable, hope you are getting the point .
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  #13  
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Democracy is the best and only way to run the states as it is the bludgeoning of the people, by the people and for the people. As for as democracy in Pakistan is concerned, I think its not in its true spirit rather more worse as compared to dictatorship. The reason behind that is this that we have seen only selected politicians in our country who has been ruling over us since the very beginning of the Pakistan as an independent state.
More over they prefer their personal interest over the national interest as they are by birth corrupt. These so called democrats have never let the educated and middle class people to come up and serve the country in true sense nor they have tried to make Pakistan a peaceful, educated and advanced nation in the world but unlike have created provincialism, sectarianism, class-system and discrimination on the basis of tribes, castes, creeds and colour type of problems in the country. Today unfortunately we find corruption in each and every institution of our country due to over black sheep baccalaureates. What a shame we are a Muslim state!
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  #14  
Old Wednesday, August 08, 2012
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To all those who think Musharraf Pushed us into the War on Terror.
My Question to them is , ' what would have Zardari or Any other Democratic leader have done if he were in Place of Musharraf ? '

Call for Change- you said Dictatorship did better in Pakistan because America supplied dollars to dictators ?
Then What about Zardari Govt ? It is too receiving the same thing.

Education sector, tellicomunication sector and IT department flourished the Most in Mushy Regime.
Economy Boosted up.
The Most Important thing, 'Literacy Rate' got improved by 11percent. And its the Literacy Rate and Education that directs the country towards prosperity. And Musharraf paid Special attention towards these. Which means his sincerity towards country was far more than any of Our democratic leader.

Democracy totally loses its worth when it brings up zardari type people to the throne.
What have this country acheived yet from democracy ? Nothing
Rather democratic leaders have plundered it alot more than any dictator.

It is not democracy ALONE that determines the better future of a country if it was so then Japan, scandinavian countries and UAE would be amonst the least developed countries as they are ruled by monarchs ( Not absolute though) .
Its the person that rules the country that determines the better future of a country.
And in Our Case its really hard to find one through elections , more specifically , under democratic rule.

P.S : I am not in Favour of dictatorship but it is just that dictators especially Musharraf did far more for this country then any other ruler.
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  #15  
Old Wednesday, August 08, 2012
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Proponents of dictatorship often point out that Pakistan has done better under dictators while democratic governments have totally messed up. What they forget is that democracy has never been allowed to take root in Pak. For almost half of our history, we have been governed by the army directly and for the other half, indirectly.

The results of uninterrupted democracy next door speak for themselves and anyway, 99% of the problems we face today can be traced back to Mard-e-Momin Zia Ul Haq (a dictator).
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  #16  
Old Thursday, August 09, 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabahatbhutta View Post
Democracy was given a chance in our country after 23 years of independence, at a time when Pakistan was not that Pakistan which Quaid-e-Azam gave us.
During those 23 years tell me was Pakistan a paradise to live in?
Dear,
Democracy agar democracy hi ho tou best hai ye jo Pakistan mein system chal raha hai democracy kay naam pe wo actually innings hai 2 parties ki pehle aik lootne ajata hai or tou kabi doosra or jo bicharay chotay moti parties hoti hain wo bhi inhi kay sath mil jati hai. Tell me one development jis pe hum keh sakain kay ye karnama democracy ne kiya hai. Atomic Program Z. A Bhutto ne papers pe banaya mana but who turn it into reality ? Nuclear test Nawaz Sharif ne nahi kiya ye us waqt k Army Chief ka pressure tha k agar nahi kiye tou tumhari govt. gai agar yaqeen na aai tou Express ka Exclusive Interview dekhain Dr. A.Q Khan ka kay wo kya kehta hai. Jitne dams is waqt Pakistan me hain wo sub kay sub Dictators ne banai. Basic Infrastructure dictator kay door mein banay.......
Koi 1 kaam batao jo is Pakistani Democracy ne diya ho

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Originally Posted by Call for Change View Post
Dictatorships worked better in Pakistan because Zia and Musharraf fought the proxy wars of US and in return they received huge amount of dollars. After fulfilling its agendas US left and the democratic regimes had to face the music of chaos, aid cuts, sanctions and deteriorating economy.
Pakistan US aid se nahi chal raha meray bhai is mulk kay politicians US aid pe chal rahay hain unhain hi fikar hoti hai Dollars ki Dual Nationality ki Foreign Tours ki un ki black money ki. Do you know Ex. Director of Swiss Bank told about $ 95 bn just Pakistani Politicians or Bureaucrats ki rakhay huway hain bank mein or wahan k citizens kay pas khaney ko nahi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shallowwater View Post
Democracy is best for Pakistan if it is allowed to function without any hindrance. At the moment the judiciary is crossing its limits and that could harm the system. For democracy to flourish properly it is necessary that the process continues without any disruption. If Prime Ministers are sent home like this then the system is in serious danger.
or kitna function kerne dain democracy ko 4.5 years mein loadshedding tou kam nahi ker saki ye democracy railways jo 2007 mein history ki best position thi is democracy ne usay barbad ker diya mulk kay sub se baray transporter ko railways ka minister bana ker agar ye armed forces or judiciary na hoti tou ye politicians tou ye mulk hi baich ker kha jate meray bhai main ye nahi kehta kay dictator koi corruption nahi kerta wo bhi kerta hai but only to some % baqi mulk mein lagata hai jo dikhta hai or democracy mein tou 1200 loog mulk ko khatay hain. Do you know Musharraf kay tenure mein loadshedding itni kam loadshedding kyun thi ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohsinali303 View Post
"i may oppose to what you say but i shall defend to death your right to say it"
this is the real definition of democracy.in pakistan democracy is best for development and change.dictatorship is not solution for Pakistan,during every dictatorship regime pakis suffered a lot.although our democratic regimes were also not very impressive,but democracy is slow process and can be moved towards betterment slowly.while in dictatorship there is no improvement.
for better pakistan we have to support democracy.
kis liae support karainge democracy ko koi logical or statical reason tou proof to dain ?

kya suffer kiya dictatorship mein pakistan ne ? take the facts from 2000 to 2008 then tell me suffer democracy mein kiya mulk ne ya dictatorship mein ?

imagination se mulk nahi chaltay practical hona chahiye sub jo proof karay kay haan ye theek hai.

Last edited by Shooting Star; Thursday, August 09, 2012 at 03:11 PM. Reason: merged
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  #17  
Old Thursday, August 09, 2012
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1973constitution was the big achievement of a democratic government.all the dictators amend it for their own vested interests.a dictator do not has the support of masses so he take support of foreign powers and while gaining this,country interests' are put at standstill mood.there are many achievements of even this worst democracy in pakistan
18 constitutional amendment
nfc award
institutional supermacy
unanimous approval of cec
seniors plz highlight my grammatical mistakes
regardz
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  #18  
Old Thursday, August 09, 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabahatbhutta View Post
What good can be done by separating politics from state? Give any single example of a country where it has been practised and succeeded?
Politics is the only way people of Pakistan, you an me can take part in the state affairs. Monarchy in the form of Ayub era, Zia era and to some exetent Musharraf era failed because majority of people of Pakistan have faith in democracy.
kis ne kaha aap se kay majority of Pakistan faith in democracy ? chalain aik practical experiment karain apne city k sub se purronak area jahan har class k log shopping kerte hon wahan ja ker randomly 100 persons (male/female/young) se ye question karain

" Aap konsa system chahtay hain Pakistan mein Democracy ya Dictatorship "

Reality pata chal jaigi aap ko democracy ki Pakistan mein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhmmdkashif View Post
Ok here are a few examples. Monarchy still exists in Britain, Spain, and Japan.. France has semi-presidential system.. US has separated legislature and executive.. These are some examples of models of democracy. You do infact need a real check on power assumed through democratic process, not in metaphorical sense like 'people are sovereign' 'people's representatives can do anything they want' and slogans like that . It will never work that way.. Politicians are after all, politicians. They belong to variety of backgrounds, mostly capital holding ones , and ultimately seek what suits them. If you even post police and other state functionaries on their wishes then,,,, how will it ever work for common people??? For example yesterday two groups fought in our town and some people were seriously injured, both went to police and it was decided that a 'respected' local politician will decide the matter with his 'wisdom' (something commonly known as 'jirga'), now what about the law of country, where does that go in situations like these??? If you don't build an institution which can put a check on politicians then these military and other adventists (or opportunists, whatever you call them) will continue doing what they are doing because politicians will always be the same. Don't be an idealist sis, think from all the perspectives.


I am trying to make it more understandable, hope you are getting the point .
agreed politicians are politicians they just want money and power baqi sub jai jahannum mein. Main aik din office k kaam se bank ja raha tha tou rastay mein aik hi signal parta hai main wahan red signal pe ruka or signal green hone ka wait ker raha tha itne mein koi baray sahab (Politician) with fool protocol with police wahan se traffic rules ko violate kerte huwa or bari shaan o shokat k sath baghair rukay signal tortay huway nikal gai. then next day main again daily bank ja raha tha or usi signal pe ruka mere pichay 2 army officers ki jeep aa rahi thein i thing Brig. sahab thay wo chup chaap aa ker signal pe ruk gai or signal green hone pe hi gai na k Baray Sahab ki tarhan signal torte huwe. Politicians tv channels pe aa ker bohat batain kerte hain hum falan kerte hain falan kerte hain or qanoon banay ka ikhtiyaar sirf parliament ka hai etc or toorte hain signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertrain View Post
To all those who think Musharraf Pushed us into the War on Terror.
My Question to them is , ' what would have Zardari or Any other Democratic leader have done if he were in Place of Musharraf ? '

Call for Change- you said Dictatorship did better in Pakistan because America supplied dollars to dictators ?
Then What about Zardari Govt ? It is too receiving the same thing.

Education sector, tellicomunication sector and IT department flourished the Most in Mushy Regime.
Economy Boosted up.
The Most Important thing, 'Literacy Rate' got improved by 11percent. And its the Literacy Rate and Education that directs the country towards prosperity. And Musharraf paid Special attention towards these. Which means his sincerity towards country was far more than any of Our democratic leader.

Democracy totally loses its worth when it brings up zardari type people to the throne.
What have this country acheived yet from democracy ? Nothing
Rather democratic leaders have plundered it alot more than any dictator.

It is not democracy ALONE that determines the better future of a country if it was so then Japan, scandinavian countries and UAE would be amonst the least developed countries as they are ruled by monarchs ( Not absolute though) .
Its the person that rules the country that determines the better future of a country.
And in Our Case its really hard to find one through elections , more specifically , under democratic rule.

P.S : I am not in Favour of dictatorship but it is just that dictators especially Musharraf did far more for this country then any other ruler.
100% agreed

ye democracy nahi 2 parties ka match hai kabhi aik innings khailta hai tou kabhi doosra. Nawaz Sahab ko agar itna hi mulk ka khayal hai tou 4.5 years se kyun bethay hain assembly mein resign kyun nahi de rahay dear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan02 View Post
Proponents of dictatorship often point out that Pakistan has done better under dictators while democratic governments have totally messed up. What they forget is that democracy has never been allowed to take root in Pak. For almost half of our history, we have been governed by the army directly and for the other half, indirectly.

The results of uninterrupted democracy next door speak for themselves and anyway, 99% of the problems we face today can be traced back to Mard-e-Momin Zia Ul Haq (a dictator).
politicians kaam hi kyun kerte hain jo army ko aana parta hai. This is first time in history or Pakistan 4.5 mein mulk ko barbad ker diya gaya but army nahi aai Ex-man Service (retired army officers org) officially wrote a letter to Gen. Kiyani kay kab aaoge jab mulk doob jaiga then he replied " Logo ko bohat shoq hai democracy ka tou ab unhain bhugatna hogi democracy"

Musharraf ne jatay jatay theek hi kaha tha " Pakistan ka ab Allah hi Hafiz hai " jo theek hi kaha tha.

Last edited by Shooting Star; Thursday, August 09, 2012 at 03:10 PM. Reason: merged
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  #19  
Old Thursday, August 09, 2012
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I don't classify military rulers of Pakistan in the category of dictators. All military juntas that have taken place in Pakistan seem like bouts of opportunist generals who jump in to get political power when political conditions are suitable, but as soon as questions on their legitimacy take firm political momentum they back off without bringing any good firm change in the system. On the contrary Dictators are leaders who gain power through continuous and harsh political and military struggle, rule with iron hand and ultimately build up a powerful organization that effectively enforce laws on the society and runs better administration as the leader wants it too. Economy and society are also built in the process. Almost all the powerful states, for example Britain, France, Germany etc were built by autocratic individuals or oligarchies and gradually their governments evolved into democracies. People have faith in the state, not in politicians. In no developed country is any political party, whether in government or not, is powerful than the state; if it is than it becomes a phenomenon known as state within a state. Judiciary serves as a link between people and the state, not elected representatives. Elected representatives' job is to rule the state through their policies implemented by legislative and/or executive authority; they are highly influential and noble citizens but by no means they can be bigger than the law. States are headed by Head of State and head of state assures state is immune to political influence so that in case of political instability crossing the limits, it is checked. That is how functional democracies around the world work. In Pakistan there is no such mechanism in place. We assume that if it is democracy than someone who forms the governments can do anything he wants, but that is not how it is done. Pakistani society is still backwards, individuals still assume things like in old times, economy relies heavily upon the feudal lords and their norms which are only bound to their wishes and ambitions and nothing else, and traditions are still of old tribal age where sense of tribalism prevails not nationalism. When the lords get political power they mingle in everyday affairs as if the country is their fief or something. Variety of political movements take ground in such an environment and eventually we have a non functional state that cannot even assure basic safety of life to the people. Everyone just wants to become 'Almighty' .

So whether the government is a democracy or dictatorship, what is needed is a functioning state that can make things work .
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Old Thursday, August 09, 2012
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Originally Posted by mhmmdkashif View Post
Ok here are a few examples. Monarchy still exists in Britain, Spain, and Japan.. France has semi-presidential system.. US has separated legislature and executive.. These are some examples of models of democracy. You do infact need a real check on power assumed through democratic process, not in metaphorical sense like 'people are sovereign' 'people's representatives can do anything they want' and slogans like that . It will never work that way.. Politicians are after all, politicians. They belong to variety of backgrounds, mostly capital holding ones , and ultimately seek what suits them. If you even post police and other state functionaries on their wishes then,,,, how will it ever work for common people??? For example yesterday two groups fought in our town and some people were seriously injured, both went to police and it was decided that a 'respected' local politician will decide the matter with his 'wisdom' (something commonly known as 'jirga'), now what about the law of country, where does that go in situations like these??? If you don't build an institution which can put a check on politicians then these military and other adventists (or opportunists, whatever you call them) will continue doing what they are doing because politicians will always be the same. Don't be an idealist sis, think from all the perspectives.


I am trying to make it more understandable, hope you are getting the point .
The examples you have given does not have any compatibility with the situation of Pakistan.
1- Monarchy in Great Britain is just symbolical. All the power rests with the Parliament. This system does not suit Pakistan. As you rightly siad Democracy in Pakistan is not that mature to be unaccountable.
2-France passed through 4 stages if I am not mistaken, to reach this system. this system also does not suit us. we do not share a single similarity with France.
3-In U.S.A the separation of Legislature and Executive is a good thing for themselves, that can not be applied to Pakistan as in Pakistan executive is accountable to legislature and judiciary and legislature is also answerable to judiciary whilst Judiciary is practically not answerable to anyone in the recent scenario. In USA Executive is not answerable to Legislature and Judiciary also show restraint for executive as they recently shown in Health Bill issue.
Pakistan has its own unique culture and realities. We need a system which is democratic and accountability must be balanced. Muslims are taught to be wise and exercise freedom. A system of Consultation should prevail in a muslim society which is Democracy in modern language.




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Originally Posted by TheWaqas View Post
kis ne kaha aap se kay majority of Pakistan faith in democracy ? chalain aik practical experiment karain apne city k sub se purronak area jahan har class k log shopping kerte hon wahan ja ker randomly 100 persons (male/female/young) se ye question karain

" Aap konsa system chahtay hain Pakistan mein Democracy ya Dictatorship "

Reality pata chal jaigi aap ko democracy ki Pakistan mein.
Have you conducted this type of Survey practically? If yes than show us the results plz , We will be obliged.
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