What is truth about wars between India and Pakistan
 

I got a chance to watch Najam Sethi show at youtube ,,in this show Najam sethi argued on a point that Pakistan initiated all four wars with india and failed to get their aim for which war was initiated ,,
here is the link for video ,,,,,

[YOUTUBE]ybioqLp7EVo[/YOUTUBE]

i wanted to know the opinion of all Prestigious members .. is it some sort of conspiracy or misguidance or truth ????

Looking forward to your opinion ,,

Thanks

It is the truth. Pakistan has so far not won a single war in India. Our history has been altered to make us believe otherwise. The first two wars were a stalemate. No side could achieve a decisive victory. However, 1971 was a big embarrassment to our military. We lost half of our nation and it was a major blow to our army's ego.

We have two versions of history,one is officially history taught by govt institutions,other is real history different from former nd close to objectivity.Official history is full of hatred nd prejudices prepared from selective facts to promote army 's agenda as army wants to justiy its large umpire nd expenditures.Its beyond the doubts that pakistan has failed to achieve desired objects in major wars with India.In these wars Pakistan have gained nothing but disgrace nd sheer wastage of resources.We,Pakistanis are entangled in emotionalism nd daydreaming

In my opinion it is becoming a fashion to disgrace our national institutions such as Army in the the name of correcting the history. It is very sad and unfortunate that our own people are trying to humiliate our heroes either deliberately working on someone's agenda or unknowingly operating as fifth column of enemy. Pakistan Army has a large history of sacrifices for the survival of this land of Lailaha Ill'Allah o Muhammad ur Rasool Allah and no one has any right to undermine this role of Army or any other institution. And the list of sacrifices is enough to prove the requirements of expenditures of Pak Army.

[QUOTE=Najam Nawaz Saqib;468485]In my opinion it is becoming a fashion to disgrace our national institutions such as Army in the the name of correcting the history. It is very sad and unfortunate that our own people are trying to humiliate our heroes either deliberately working on someone's agenda or unknowingly operating as fifth column of enemy. Pakistan Army has a large history of sacrifices for the survival of this land of Lailaha Ill'Allah o Muhammad ur Rasool Allah and no one has any right to undermine this role of Army or any other institution. And the list of sacrifices is enough to prove the requirements of expenditures of Pak Army.[/QUOTE]
We never denied their sacrifices. Your response is full of emotions for the motherland, I understand and laud your concern for the nation. However, we never intended to humiliate the army. We only stated a fact: Pakistan has not won a single war with India. Instead of ignoring this fact, we should analyse our History and try to understand what went wrong in order to prevent such disasters in the future.

[QUOTE=M T M;468237]I got a chance to watch Najam Sethi show at youtube ,,in this show Najam sethi argued on a point that Pakistan initiated all four wars with india and failed to get their aim for which war was initiated ,,
here is the link for video ,,,,,

[YOUTUBE]ybioqLp7EVo[/YOUTUBE]

i wanted to know the opinion of all Prestigious members .. is it some sort of conspiracy or misguidance or truth ????

Looking forward to your opinion ,,

Thanks[/QUOTE]
Without any Prejudice


Mr Sethi Says that in 1947 & 1965, Pakistan attempted to create some Insurgency in Jammu Kashmir by sending its under-cover army personnel in the form of Jehadis so that the presuure increases on India for liberating Kashmir. He used word"Provocations" that means "The act of provoking or inciting" on behalf of the Pakistan that Pakistan did so and so and hence executed PROVOCATIONS that led "India to Cross the International Border and Attack Lahore". Now lets stop here

If Pakistan started provocations and stimulated insurgency, then India had all option to take up the matter at UNO and any other International Forum. But what India did, it crossed the International Border, which is a crime as per the International Laws. So Mr Sethi says that Pakistan was responsible for 1965 war as it intiated a insurgency (which has no proof as yet) but he was very cruel in saying that India's act of crossing the border with its all Army invading Paikstan was just a "Response" to the "Insurgency". His gestures seem to be attempting to defend India as he says that Invading Pakistan was a response to the alleged Insurgency. So you can make the decision at your own. Alleged Insurgency (no proof as yet) is a bigger crime or crossing the Border and invading a nation before whole world??????? All the world saw that India crossed the borders and had Pakistni Army not retaliated, Pakistan's Map would have been different today. It is not justified that you give reasons that India attacked Pakistan as a respnse to the Insurgency. Pakistan did not cross the Lines, Pakistan did not attack India but defended its borders.

And he also takes the credit of defending Lahore from all those Shuhadda's who fastened bombs with their chests and exploded the tanks of Indian Army by saying that Indian Army haulted near Lahore with the thoughts that it might be a trap for them by Pakistan Army. The time period when Indian Army haulted near Lahore, Pak Army arrived by the time (otherwise they were sleeping) and defended Pakistan.

Armies never march like this that before invading another country it will hault near a city to see whether the Enemy is sleeping or awaking, should we attack or do rest. For the kind information, Armies move with the prior approvals and complete Intelligence is obtained; how much Enemy Army is employed there, how much time is required to reach the operation area? what kind of weapons by enemy will have to be encountered?. How is it possible that Indian Army haulted near Lahore and gave time to Pak Army to awake and lay under the tanks..........Oh My God.........that is a totally insane and doomed and highly prejudiced on behalf of the Sethi who took all the credit of Shuhadaa of 1965 in a very casual way by saying all this. What happened in Tashqand, is beyond the control of an Army troop. That was the job of leaders if not done properly. Anyhow, Mr Sethi is trying to proove India innocent and blaming Pakistan for everything.


In 1971, both the Anchor and Mr Sethi very easily skipped the role of Mukti Bahni which was operated by India's RAW and caused the civil unrest in Bengal. Here also they put whole responsibility on Pakistan proving India as a peace-loving nation.
For Kargil, Sethi presents India again as a very innocent nation and says that India just wanted to ocuppy siachin glaciers as it was a conflicted area.........wow sethi sahib great.......and takes up back to 1984.......wow.......baaat ati ai 1999 ki to sethi goes to 1984......sawal Gandum Jawab Channa


It may be correct that we never won any war on table but let us compare the nations Army:-

India Army Size 1,129,900 Active personnel 34 Divisions 25 deployed against Pakistan (including all 3 armour and 3 mechanized)
80% Indian Army deployed against Pakistan.
Pakistan Army Size 550,000 active troops 29 Divisions

Indian Air Force Size 127,000 personnel approx. 1,361 aircraft

Pakistan Air Force Size 65,000 full-time personnel (including 3,000 pilots) 10,000 reservists 902 aircrafts

Indian Navy Size 58,350 personnel, 181 aircraft

Pakistan Navy Size 25,000 active personnel, 5,000 reserves

So what are we thinking with these figures that Pak Forces should have clean sweeped the Indian Forces in the 4 wars and should have fixed the Flag of Pakistan in New Dehli in these wars or Mughal Empire should have been created? We are doomed if we think that this is the concept of Wining a war. We should be satisfaied that despite limited resources, our armies did well and defended less in 1971 where Conspiracy theory and lack of leadership led us into that situation. No other nation in South Asia can stare India except us.

Why should we be so desperate and why should we always think negatively, are we trying to forget the sacrifices of brave troops who fought for Pakistan and sacrificed their lives in 1965 by admitting to such one-sided analysis of an analyst (alleged to be clandestinely handled by anti-Pakistan agencies). Wht we want to forget those young men who laid beneath the indian tanks and trying to inject such a foolish, insane, injustifide and totally whimsical and filmsy thinking that Indian Army haulted before reaching lahore as they were surprised to see no one on the borderr........(believe me army never moves so)..............
Ar we a nation? or just a gathering of people with scattered thoughts and passions? what has happend to us? Why have we left feeling the true sense of patriotism on national occasion? why have we become addicted to such programmes who have their own agenda's. Please leave critcising everything and think positive and avoid passimism ........We are not a story of Bombs and terrorism, we are a nation.

I have no personla bias with this programme and anchor and the analyst but being a Paikstani have reservations to this video. This seems biased and sowing the seeds of uncertainity and passimism and diverting the thinking...............No clear logic have been given, if some Defence Analyst llistens to this video he can better reply but this is the joke of the century that in 1965, Indian Armies had a hault near Lahore .....................Tell me if I am wrong....

Do you know Jews and Indian establishment infiltrate more than $ 400 million to criticize on our Arm forces, agencies, government departments etc and also shows Pakistan as a "Failed State" and to realized the that "Pakistan is a failed state she is not capable to hold Nuclear Power any more. So UN pressurize Pakistan to roll back her Nuclear Program. Its a cold war against Pakistan against our Nuclear Program.

Najam Nawaz Saqib and Chintoo :
Wrong is always Wrong. Whether I do it Or any Army Personnel. Just because Army Men have done lots of Sacrifices for this Country doesnt put them above the Law and Neither do it exempt them from Criticism if they ever do something wrong.
They are to be equally blamed or Criticised for their wrong actions.

It is too easy in our society for any person to be a hero. All he has to do is to create lies in order to cover up the inequities , wrongs and all the evils of our society. Because all that we want to hear and accept is Praise.

We all Know that we gave India the reason to wage a war againts us. And we know it too that militants from our country infiltrated indian held kashmir and started their activities. But yet we are not ready to take the blame.

The brutality towards Bengalis. The atrocities carried by our Faujis'. We all are well aware of that but yet we would blame Mukti Bahni for all the blunders.


Extremely hesitant in condemning our mistakes. Still reluctant to accept our transgressions. Always ready to accuse a person of treason/supporter of anti-pakistani agenda if his opinions differs then ours ( No matter if his are true )
We are never ready to accept any thing that goes against our own held beleifs.

Remember , this country can never progress unless we accept all the mistakes that our elders have made. Before bringing change we have to develop change in our minds, in our thinking.

Insan ke jisim main haath, per aur muscles hote hain, insan in sab se buhut piar karta hai, in ko mazboot se mazboot tar banata hai, in pe fakhar karta hai; magar in kaa kaam beherhaal jismani kaam kaaj main collaborate karna hota hai un ko command karna nahin. kabhi kisi larai main yeh doosre pe bhaari par jaayen to yeh puri body pe superiority kaa daawa nahin karte aur na hee agar kamzor par jaayen to body in ko malamat karti hai :D. jisim kaa har aik organ apna apna kaam karta hai tabhi haath per aur muscles is laaiq hote hain ke larai lar saken. same is the case between nations and armies :dd. armies nation ke haath per aur muscles kee tarah hoti hain, agar armies jang jeet jaayen to yeh fatah puri qom kee fatah hoti hai aur haar jaayen to shikast puri qom kee shikast hoti hai, magar beherhaal armies kaa kaam national strategy implementation main collaborative hota hai commanding nahin :D. Pakistan army ne khud hee apne aap ko qom ke saamne is awkward position main laaya hai ke ab us ki taraf unglian uth rahi hain aur us ko politically defensive hona par raha hai. political role play karna yaa nation pe hukumat karna aur national strategy ko command karna army kaa aik organization ke tor pe kaam hai hee nahin, us ke liye political leadership hoti hai jo ke political process se aati hai. agar nation ke politicians ache nahin the to aik political process ke zariye army ke officers aage aa sakte hain aur us political process main apne kaarname ginwa ke qom se credibility wasool kar sakte hain, woh bhi isi nation kaa hissa hain, magar Pakistan army ne apni puri organization ko politics main jhonk dia. constitution ko maaro goli, yeh law of nature hai ke agar insani haath per aur muscles apne kaarname ginwa ke dimagh kee jaga lene kee koshish karen ge to body paralyze ho jaaye gee, usi tarah agar army apni organization ke kaarname ginwa ke nation ko politically rule karne kee koshish kare gee to...... aage aap khud samajhdar hain :evil (BTW judiciary is also doing the same thing these day :evil, us ne bhi apni organization ko politics main jhonk dia hai apna asli kaam chor ke)

army kaa koi kaam nahin hai apni political doctrine banaye aur us ko qom pe taqat ke zariye musallat kare, aisa kare gaa to bhare gaa :evil. haan baqi army ke officers aur jawan qom ke ba shaoor fard ke tor pe qomi political process main shaamil ho sakte hain aur apni political doctrine ke zariye power main aa sakte hain, jis tarah se tamam political parties apni political doctrine ke zariye power main aati hain :D. phir jo un se ikhtilaf kare gaa woh yehi kahe gaa ke yeh foji acha nahin hai, magar koi puri foj pe baaten nahin chore gaa :evil.

[QUOTE=desertrain;468649]Najam Nawaz Saqib and Chintoo :
Wrong is always Wrong. Whether I do it Or any Army Personnel. Just because Army Men have done lots of Sacrifices for this Country doesnt put them above the Law and Neither do it exempt them from Criticism if they ever do something wrong.
They are to be equally blamed or Criticised for their wrong actions.

It is too easy in our society for any person to be a hero. All he has to do is to create lies in order to cover up the inequities , wrongs and all the evils of our society. Because all that we want to hear and accept is Praise.

We all Know that we gave India the reason to wage a war againts us. And we know it too that militants from our country infiltrated indian held kashmir and started their activities. But yet we are not ready to take the blame.

The brutality towards Bengalis. The atrocities carried by our Faujis'. We all are well aware of that but yet we would blame Mukti Bahni for all the blunders.


Extremely hesitant in condemning our mistakes. Still reluctant to accept our transgressions. Always ready to accuse a person of treason/supporter of anti-pakistani agenda if his opinions differs then ours ( No matter if his are true )
We are never ready to accept any thing that goes against our own held beleifs.

Remember , this country can never progress unless we accept all the mistakes that our elders have made. Before bringing change we have to develop change in our minds, in our thinking.[/QUOTE]
Not Agreed
You said without any figures and facts. How you say that Army has done so and so and blamed Pakistan for the wrongs in 65 years at the LOC. Why are you saving the skin of India,; the Maha-Bharat and giving it a clean chit by saying that it were we who started the wars.
As far as heroes are concerned, YES the troops at Chawinda are my Heroes, YES I love Pak Army. What kind of Heroes you want to see, Bollywood Stars......?. Its easy to say that here becoming Hero is easy......how you say that.....can you fasten bomb and explode yourself.......

Do you clean chit to India for Bramdag? Do you give clean chit to India for Muqti Bahni? Donot you think Why India has numberless Consulates all along the Pak-Afghan Border where under cover intelligence operators are operating their network and also exploiting the situation in Balochistan and also monitoring the Militant Activities..........

If you are pre-occupied with the some thoughts, then all the sacrifices and Good-Job would look to you poisoned and corrupted......You see what you want to see.......