Islamisation vs Secularism? - Page 3

mhmmdkashif · #21 Sunday, March 23, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddha

We have a state now and it will not dissolve if we scrap the Two Nation Theory.

I don't think anyone will ever try that

. There must be firmly entrenched supporters of the two nation theory within the state and there are scores of opportunists who will seize the opportunity to make things cumbersome. The only way that would be possible is a moment suddenly sweeps the political spectrum of the nation and redefines the whole state.

Buddha · #22 Sunday, March 23, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhmmdkashif

I don't think anyone will ever try that

. There must be firmly entrenched supporters of the two nation theory within the state and there are scores of opportunists who will seize the opportunity to make things cumbersome. The only way that would be possible is a moment suddenly sweeps the political spectrum of the nation and redefines the whole state.

That is true. However, I think that we can get rid of it gradually too, without any sudden revolution. Getting rid of Jinnah's ambiguous vision could be the first step.

ADIL KHESHGI · #23 Sunday, March 23, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddha

Progressive Islamic State is a vague term. Khench ker jo marzi bana lo.

That's why I wrote one should do research and made a reference to Jinnah's sayings. Jinnah ke alfaz ko khench kar apni marzi k mutabiq kuch banana torha mushkil hojayega brother.

Buddha · #24 Sunday, March 23, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADIL KHESHGI

That's why I wrote one should do research and made a reference to Jinnah's sayings. Jinnah ke alfaz ko khench kar apni marzi k mutabiq kuch banana torha mushkil hojayega brother.

Mujhe khenchne ki zarurat nahi :P Pehlay hi khich machi hui hai. Jinnah's sayings are used by the far left as well as the far right for their arguments. Beech walay bhi use kertay hain :P

ADIL KHESHGI · #25 Sunday, March 23, 2014

But still those who really want and need to understand what he meant can understand his clear message. Just go through it and you'll get what you need, you bet.

Buddha · #26 Monday, March 24, 2014

There is no clear message. It's vague and ambiguous. That is why we have this debate of Secularists VS Islamists in the first place, both claiming Jinnah as their own.

Quote:

Just go through it and you'll get what you need

Haan har kisi ko apne matlab ka quote mil jaye ga

ADIL KHESHGI · #27 Monday, March 24, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddha

If you're talking about resolving the conflict between Left and Right, I doubt that would ever be the case. The best we can do is stop looking at Jinnah and other founding fathers for the vision of Pakistan. We have a state now and it will not dissolve if we scrap the Two Nation Theory. If we don't, it will only continue to produce complications in the treatment of the little minority we have. Moreover, it will continue to produce monsters like the TTP who claim that they are right in their stance because Pakistan was created in the name of Islam and their interpretation of Shariah law should be implemented here. It will keep providing fodder for them.

If you scrap Two Nation Theory then you'll not be able to maintain your claim over Indian Held Kashmir, you'll push your country into an identity crisis and you'll need another theory for your history books and foundation of your country then. so the problem is not with the Two Nation Theory but with the people who're unable to understand it. Pakistan's Movement was not a purely Muslim religious movement against infidels but it was a politico-socio-culturo-economic movement for the uplifting of the Muslims of the sub-continent.
Isn't it ironic to re-create or re-write history for fixing problems of the present?

ADIL KHESHGI · #28 Monday, March 24, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddha

There is no clear message. It's vague and ambiguous. That is why we have this debate of Secularists VS Islamists in the first place, both claiming Jinnah as their own.

I may help you in finding his sayings that are crystal clear and easily comprehensible.

Haan har kisi ko apne matlab ka quote mil jaye ga

Wo to log Quran k text se bhi apna matlab nikal lete hain. Lenin once said that "It doesn't matter that who votes or how many votes, what matters is that who does the counting" so the problem is not with Jinnah or his sayings but with his readers and followers.

Buddha · #29 Monday, March 24, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADIL KHESHGI

If you scrap Two Nation Theory then you'll not be able to maintain your claim over Indian Held Kashmir, you'll push your country into an identity crisis and you'll need another theory for your history books and foundation of your country then. so the problem is not with the Two Nation Theory but with the people who're unable to understand it. Pakistan's Movement was not a purely Muslim religious movement against infidels but it was a politico-socio-culturo-economic movement for the uplifting of the Muslims of the sub-continent.
Isn't it ironic to re-create or re-write history for fixing problems of the present?

Pakistan supports the Kashmiri people's right of self-determination. It's also the official version and Pakistan does not CLAIM the Kashmiri territory like we used to do.

After 65 years I don't think we will have an identity crisis. The generation that used to be in United India is either dead or too old to remember anything. We are third generation Pakistanis. Do we need an ideology to love Pakistan? We love Pakistan because it is our country.

For the history books we can write that this theory was used at that time because it seemed right but its not relevant anymore. Anyway my point wasn't to re-create history, it was to stop looking at ambiguity of founding fathers for fixing present day problems. Its like a break with the past and having a fresh start.

Buddha · #30 Monday, March 24, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADIL KHESHGI

Wo to log Quran k text se bhi apna matlab nikal lete hain. Lenin once said that "It doesn't matter that who votes or how many votes, what matters is that who does the counting" so the problem is not with Jinnah or his sayings but with his readers and followers.

Very Weak analogy. Quran and Islam are a complete system and most of it is very clear and articulate. Jinnah hardly gave a system. A bit of speeches here and there. No constitution, no book, no clear articulation of a political system.

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