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  #11  
Old Thursday, July 17, 2014
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Originally Posted by Aaqib Javed View Post
one-state solution sounds overly idealistic to me (though it's proponents think it to be realistic). Single govt, no borders, no need for military, equal rights, respect for each other's faith, free trade across regions and etc etc; not many have dreamed better.

Israel was founded on Zionist ideology and guess what the majority party in Palestine right now is Hamas, which follows a form of "Islamic Zionism". I can't see why would Israelis and Palestinians respect each other's rights in near future; 'aik myan main do talwarain nahi reh sakti'.
All you need is to see this video to appreciate the shallowness of this idea.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=681382278619566

I agree many of the current miss-happenings in Palestine can be attributed to Hamas. But the increased popularity of Hamas is an indirect consequence of Israel's ever-increasing occupation of territory in West Bank.

For me the two state-state solution is a prerequisite to peace in the region.

There is a sizable Arab population already in Israel where they're participating in politics and they have earned a great deal of rights for themselves. You can check this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Still a lot have to be done and left parties in Israel are working to do away with the Jewish fanaticism. And the video does not prove anything, we can take our children to a military exhibition and hear similar things from them about Indians. Things change like they changed in the US where racism was the default attitude of many people a few decades ago.

Hamas is actually more a fundamentalist reaction to secular Al Fatah. Hamas like organizations are everywhere in the Muslim world where there is no Israel trying to occupy more territory.
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  #12  
Old Thursday, July 17, 2014
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Is it the first time a two nation solution has been proposed?
Is Israel really interested in two countries? If it was then why the war in the first place?
The idea has been around for a while. As I mentioned, there is resistance from the conservative faction of Israel (and Arabs) about it. And negotiations are halted every now and then because of the incidents from both sides.

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Is violence our favorite method or theirs? who began the problem in the first place and how did it begin? they are in power and they are using it and we are begging them to come to the dialogue table.
I guess it's the favorite method of whoever is in power. When Muslims were in power, they ruled the roost, which is what others are doing now.

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Is Zionism a religious movement or a reasonable one? In some churches it is taught to christians that jews are your brothers and you got to help them in whatever way possible.
I don't endorse any of that, including Zionism.

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but it is for us that being religious is a stigma. it isn't 'cool' anymore to be religious right?
Actually I find it 'cool' if someone has strong religious convictions (although absence of that can be equally cool). What I find un-cool, however, is religious fanaticism which seems to be the order of the day, particularly in Muslim societies.

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If something never happened in the past does it mean it will never happen in the future either?
Anything can happen in future. If we are talking about possibilities, no one can say with certainty that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow. But the world hardly works on possibilities, it works on probabilities. Anyways, I don't have any personal grudge against the merger of states. I think it's an excellent idea to have a world without any states at all. But I don't believe in merging states on the basis of a collection of ideologies often clashing.
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  #13  
Old Thursday, July 17, 2014
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I don't endorse any of that, including Zionism.


If you don't endorse Zionism will it cease to exist?

by the way what do you think is the purpose of this discussion?


“The man who refuses to judge, who neither agrees nor disagrees, who declares that there are no absolutes and believes that he escapes responsibility, is the man responsible for all the blood that is now spilled in the world. Reality is an absolute, existence is an absolute, a speck of dust is an absolute and so is a human life. Whether you live or die is an absolute. Whether you have a piece of bread or not, is an absolute. Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.

There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil. The man who is wrong still retains some respect for truth, if only by accepting the responsibility of choice. But the man in the middle is the knave who blanks out the truth in order to pretend that no choice or values exist, who is willing to sit out the course of any battle, willing to cash in on the blood of the innocent or to crawl on his belly to the guilty, who dispenses justice by condemning both the robber and the robbed to jail, who solves conflicts by ordering the thinker and the fool to meet each other halfway. In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromise is the transmitting rubber tube.”
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  #14  
Old Thursday, July 17, 2014
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You brought up the problem of Zionism, so I only made it clear that I don't support it. The purpose of the conversation is to discuss possible solutions for the Palestinian problem.

As for the Ayn Rand reference, I don't know what you mean to imply by that. May be you can enlighten me.
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Old Thursday, July 17, 2014
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how to counter zionism?

the reference was by mistake
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  #16  
Old Thursday, July 17, 2014
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I couldn't understand why Hamas isn't halting its rocket assaults on Israel despite death toll is increasing day after day. I know that there is a rivalry b/w Hamas and Mahmood Abbas-led govt, but they can settle the issue by the accord so that Palestinians could not be targetted. After all they themselves are a part of Palestine.
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  #17  
Old Friday, July 18, 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
There is a sizable Arab population already in Israel where they're participating in politics and they have earned a great deal of rights for themselves. You can check this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Still a lot have to be done and left parties in Israel are working to do away with the Jewish fanaticism.
Arabs will be in slight majority if a single state is agreed upon out of the territory of mandatory Palestine. Would Israel be willing to surrender its authority to the Arab majority? Would all citizens of this state become instantly equal before the law, with all rights and responsibilities of the citizen, without discrimination?
I think an apartheid would be a safe expectation.

You can read more in this article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ziad-j...b_1638550.html

Arabs living in Israel aren't very positive about state of Israel. You can have a look on the surveys given in the Wikipedia article. Exceptions can be there.

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And the video does not prove anything, we can take our children to a military exhibition and hear similar things from them about Indians. Things change like they changed in the US where racism was the default attitude of many people a few decades ago.
It does prove things. Seculars and liberals would bash those kids and journalists if such comments were made by Pakistani kids about Indians or Hindus. You know its not an ideal situation if such comments are made about other races; neither in Pakistan, nor in Israel. Blacks are a minority in US and they share the same religion as Whites while Arabs might be a majority with different religion in united Palestine.

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Hamas like organizations are everywhere in the Muslim world where there is no Israel trying to occupy more territory.
But not many of such organizations are an elected majority in Islamic countries. I tried to link Hamas's popularity to Israeli aggression not its existence.
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I couldn't understand why Hamas isn't halting its rocket assaults on Israel despite death toll is increasing day after day. I know that there is a rivalry b/w Hamas and Mahmood Abbas-led govt, but they can settle the issue by the accord so that Palestinians could not be targeted. After all they themselves are a part of Palestine.
Hamas is provoking Israel because they want to do politics on the dead bodies of the innocent Palestinians. Hamas sounds like a real bad ass na?

Then let me rephrase my statement. Hamas have every right to fire rockets on Israel because it is Israel that have occupied their territory; Its Israel that have turned Palestinian's lives in a living hell holding them as prisoners in their own cities; Its Israel that have built Jewish settlements in Palestinian cities. And Hamas will be justified in attacking Israel as long as an over all settlement is reached; a settlement that includes Israel withdrawing form all the occupied territory that it currently holds. Only then we will be right in blaming Hamas for provoking Israel.

P.S. The fact we and the world is talking about Palestinian issue owes to very provocations of Hamas. That's how oppressed do their struggle against the oppressor.
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  #19  
Old Friday, July 18, 2014
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Then let me rephrase my statement. Hamas have every right to fire rockets on Israel because it is Israel that have occupied their territory; Its Israel that have turned Palestinian's lives in a living hell holding them as prisoners in their own cities; Its Israel that have built Jewish settlements in Palestinian cities. And Hamas will be justified in attacking Israel as long as an over all settlement is reached; a settlement that includes Israel withdrawing form all the occupied territory that it currently holds. Only then we will be right in blaming Hamas for provoking Israel.

P.S. The fact we and the world is talking about Palestinian issue owes to very provocations of Hamas. That's how oppressed do their struggle against the oppressor.
I have to agree with most of what you've said. While I don't consider it a right of Hamas to shower rockets on Israel, there does't seem to be any other way and most of the blame clearly lies with Israel. It's like what Sartre pointed out that 'terrorism is a terrible weapon but the oppressed poor have none other.' It's more like a last resort. But given the extreme imbalance of power, I'm not sure if anything good comes of it.

But in the end, both Israel and Hamas have contributed in making a terrible mess of the lives in Gaza. Recently a document was circulated on the internet written by a few young people from Gaza. It depicts the frustration of the people of Gaza with both Israel and Hamas.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...to-palestinian

An excerpt: "We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the Earth. During the last years, Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want."
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  #20  
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yesterday a statement came from the Turkish Premier about the Israeli attacks on Gaza and he warns Israel of consequences he also asked the UN that why it was formed? for what purpose?. As we all know from the UN charter that UN was formed after the world war II to solve disputes among the member state and keep peace and stability in the world but now they have been failed largely that they can't prove their own charter. He also urged that what is Arab League and OIC doing for Palestine issue.
As UN is silent over the Israeli genocide of Palestinian and also the Muslim world too.
Why the world is so indifferent in the issue of Palestine why they do not take such action like in the case of Ukraine that all the 7 powers took so serious action and suspend the membership of Russia from G-8 with respect to the issue of Ukraine.
Israel always enjoyed western support specially from America since its founding in 1948. Israel have so strong lobby in US that they do not even speak against Israel and it always depends its attacks on the Gaza but on the other hand all the world are also silent specially the Islamic World why?
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