[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;742035]That remains a high probability since perhaps overwhelming number of Muslims want a mahdi kind of figure to rise and rule, perhaps you like to keep your mind close to such a probability :D[/QUOTE]

So Mahdi kind of figure will be close to Hitler I suppose? According to you?

Pardon me for another personal question! Have you ever seen yourself in this role? A Muslim Hitler? I mean have you ever fantasized yourself in this role?

[QUOTE=Buddha;742038]So Mahdi kind of figure will be close to Hitler I suppose? According to you?[/QUOTE]

Yeah such figure would perhaps use the same tactics as Hitler and Mussolini, but not pursuit racism and would perhaps give out a different ideology closer to islamic faith. Hitler rise and conflict between fascism and others was also a conflict between old and modern Europe remember :D

[QUOTE=Buddha;742041]Pardon me for another personal question! Have you ever seen yourself in this role? A Muslim Hitler? I mean have you ever fantasized yourself in this role?[/QUOTE]

Nah... although I find Hitler style of demagoguery and politics fascinating and generally seeing our nonsense politicians on tv boils the blood and it increases my support for rise of a Hitler like strong politician who has commitment and a strong belief :D

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;742047]Nah... although I find Hitler style of demagoguery and politics fascinating and generally seeing our nonsense politicians on tv boils the blood and it increases my support for rise of a Hitler like strong politician who has commitment and a strong belief :D[/QUOTE]

A strong belief in a cause of course, not in personal power :D. And looking at Pakistanis who are even willing to follow a rookie demagogue like Qadri, chances of this country being taken over by a pursuasive and intelligent demagogue like Hitler remain very high. So insteady of trying to perceive me as a lunatic maniac, open your mind to possibilities as well. People like Hitler rise even in a highly skilled and learned nation of Germany once the conditions are there, particularly at times when people feel 'foreign nations' want to destroy theirs :D

i got questions too. Alinaa was very kind to point to point out that 'education' is the key to success for a democracy. what kind of education? Utilitarian or value based?

regards

[QUOTE] Thus in practice french taxing the rich doesn't really translate into any change for the middle class because the capital then flies to America (perhaps you noted it in a prior discussion as well).[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure how much capital flies to American and to what extent it affects France. A chief source can be the multinational corporations but then again, France itself considerably benefits from those corporations working on her soil because it’s not like a third world country where the corporations can exploit the loopholes in law and political corruption and get away with it. And besides, the fact remains that the French middle class (in fact, the middle class in most of the Europe) enjoys far more social benefits (in terms of education, healthcare etc) and less taxes compared to the American middle class. The European model is much closer to welfare governance that anywhere in the world.

[QUOTE] Moreover Muslims are 'highly sensitive' about their culture and religion, so in order to maintain 'uniqueness' of 'Islamic democracy' and save it from 'satanic lusts', all Muslim countries would require making a central democratic state and build an economy that can compete with 'infidel' but that is far fetched so any single Muslim nation if embarked on path of democracy soon finds out it can no longer maintain it because people eventually don't give it required support and radical militants start to arise.[/QUOTE]

I don’t see how Muslim countries can effectively collaborate (which would be a nice thing, btw) without first getting their act together and consolidating their economies and political structure. But I think the number of people in favor of democratic structure is steadily growing in Pakistan at least which is a good sign. An important thing we should need is the support of the religious scholars and while there are a few prominent ones who do favor democratic setup, it would take time to see if democracy enjoys popular religious support.

Now it would be important to distinguish between how things actually work and how we wish them to work. Obviously many Pakistanis have lofty wishes of conquering the world, acting like the great warriors of the old, and such. And there are a lot of things people would like to do away with. But when you, as a nation, are at the lowest rungs of the world, you don’t have a real choice in a lot of things. It’s like a serf depending on a landlord who hardly has any say in most of the matters. Our aspirations certainly don’t match out actual circumstances.

[QUOTE] First of all 'feudal state' existed only in eastern half of Pakistan where Punjab and Sindh lies, whereas the western half where KPK and Balochistan lies have historically posed military challenges to the 'feudal states' and even today we are witnessing that. Now that poses a daunting challenge because it would not only require 'educating' people of that area but also change their entire 'life styles' from nomadic tribal to a settled urban society. Achieving that would be highly challenging and, perhaps, bloody all along the path.[/QUOTE]

Good thing is, most of the population of the country resides in the Eastern half. But even in the other half, situation is already changing. Last 50 years have brought about significant changes at least in KPK where industrialization is on a rise, and that is the only solution. Education, and industrialization. Education really is a very powerful tool which can transform a nation, for good or for bad, even within a single generation. The case of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia is in point.

I’m not entirely sure if there are no bloody experiences in store for us in near future. Nations should have their bloody experiences to learn lessons. But I don’t think we would have much trouble from the transforming lifestyles. The real trouble, as I see, would be from the radically religious section of the country (we already are having that bloody experience). How long will this continue and how it would affect the country is yet to be seen.

[QUOTE] religion gives you an entirely different 'cause' of living than the one you would be pursuing in a democratic state. Islam being such a simple and strong faith as it is, Muslims have a very strong belief in its cause even in a world where religiosity is waning so sharply, and when you have strong belief in a cause you will resist changing it's values very aggressively[/QUOTE]

The thing is, transformation of values is not a conscious process. From our parents to us a lot of things have changed and we seldom even think about it. It just happens without conscious effort. As for democracy, as I already mentioned, there is a growing number of people who favor it. Consider the case of Jamat-e-Islami. There are a lot of educated religious people who vote for Jamat. Obviously, Jamat calls for an Islamic system (which is a meaningless term, I myself having Jamati background can testify to that). But the good thing is, Jamat itself believes in bringing that change through democratic process (ironically, it is also the most democratic political party in Pakistan with not a shade of family politics). So there are lots of religious people, particularly the educated ones, who don’t have any problem with democracy. All we can hope is that the number keeps rising.

[QUOTE] Again the 'environment' would be ripe for a brilliant 'demagogue', if not military, to uproot and discard democracy for good[/QUOTE]

While I don’t agree with the reasons that you’ve mentioned, obviously we cannot preclude the possibility of a dictatorship. It will remain with us, particularly considering our past stints with it.

[QUOTE] So let me make it very simple, path to democracy in Pakistan is very very long, tiresome, and perhaps violent and bloody. And in the end, if successful, we again 'risk' a shaky faith highly dreaded for Muslims in particular. Does it worth it???[/QUOTE]

It will be long, it might be tiresome, bloody even, but the thing is, unless I’m given an alternative, and not just the name of an alternative but a detailed roadmap such as the one that exists for democracy, I don’t see any other option.

[QUOTE] instead of environment I will use the word 'circumstance'. circumstances were not good but now they aren't that bad; things are improving but wouldn't you say that the attitudes are still the same? we still need to change our circumstance but for that we need the right kind of attitude. how then do you propose we bring that attitude in ourselves, our country fellows and our future?
regards
(BTW you are also saying that thing will be fine in the long run)[/QUOTE]

The answer, as Aliina pointed out, is education. That an economy/industrialization. A responsible media naturally plays its role too. As to the matter of longer time span, I understand you are comparing it with the case of interest-free economy? Well, there’s a crucial difference: in case of democracy, we don’t need to bring about radical organizational and institutional changes in what already exists. That is not the case with interest-free economy. Besides, how it would affect our relations with other nations, something a third world country cannot help considering, is not known. What’s more, we don’t have any example of it in the modern world that we can follow. There is no detailed roadmap that can tell me the affects of it at every stage. Too much uncertainly and assumptions there.

[QUOTE] what kind of education? Utilitarian or value based? [/QUOTE]

Both. I don’t think we can do away with either of them.

the education that you speak of is a function of economics. and even if you do not agree with zero interest rate you still need a lot of time for economic stability. "inflation increases poverty" is an economic fallacy but unfortunately no one knows about. removing this fallacy will also take time. so long term everywhere and in every aspect: whether it is political, economic or social.

but here we are speaking about politics so would you enlighten political duds like me about various schools of political philosophy?

A Model for Concrete Change
 

Each society works to achieve a set of [B]values[/B], which are general conceptions of what is good, right, desirable, or important. Examples may include obedience, freedom, fitness, modesty, honesty and self-esteem etc. Most of these values are pretty consistent across cultures like honesty and health.

How does a society ensure that its members are respecting its values? Well, they use sanctions, both formal and informal. Formal sanctions refer to laws enacted by a legislature, violation of which laws leads to punishment by state. Informal sanctions refer to milder punishments by society like if we haven't washed our hands before eating, then our mother might frown at us and lecture us.

But some values do not receive same importance in one culture as they do in another culture. For example liberty and individualism are valued more in secular western societies while in religious societies obedience and loyalty are deemed more important. Why this inconsistency? This leads us to [B]Beliefs[/B], which are conceptions that people accept as true concerning how the world operates. Secular people who believe in science and not in religions will prize liberty. While religious people, who believe in some book and its God, will stress obedience to God's word as their prime value.


Let's assume we see a problem with our society and want to improve that problem. How can we do it? For that, we will have to point out where the problem lies. It can either be an issue with the enforcement of our values. Like we may need better laws, or better enforcement of the laws which are already in place.

[B]OR[/B]

It could be that we have a problem with our values; that some of the values we have are causing the problems and in order to improve the society we will have to replace those faulty values with better values. If a truly democratic culture is the objective, then the values like feudal power, patriarchy, obedience, and female modesty can be questioned. How can we change values? As shown in a paragraph above, values stem from beliefs and to change values we will have to change the beliefs of a people. It's very often observed that the problems which are linked with wrong values get the treatment, from our govt and media, as if they are associated with wrong laws or poor enforcement.



How beliefs can be changed? Its simplest answer is education. But this leads to another question that why would people get education? The answer is Industrialization. In fact, modern education system developed as a response to Industrial Revolution. In other words, Industry creates more attractive jobs than agriculture and to get those jobs people will get education. In short, Industrial jobs act as an incentive to motivate people to get education.

Now although the primary function of education is to enhance the productivity and skill set of a person, modern education also kind of brain washes people to respect certain moral values. This is made possible by the fact that enhanced productivity that results from education kind of liberates a person from the constant struggle for survival as with his technical skills he is capable of making a living easily. Moreover, more information about universe and cause and effect relations frees the educated person from stereotypes.

But here is a critical thing to consider about the importance Industrialization. What if government provides education to people even if no industrialization is happening. Will education still be able to achieve the desired change?

My answer would be a NO. Industrialization is not important for merely promoting education but rather it represents a life style. A life style that is very different form traditional agricultural life style.

Here are a few differences

--Family is the producing unit in agrarian societies as men, women and children all do some valuable economic work for the upkeep of their farm or livestock. Where as in Industrial societies there is no such interdependence on family members and men and women work in factories or firms in their individual capacity.
--More children meant more and free labor force for the farm in an agrarian society. But in an Industrial society more children mean more burden because a parent will have to bear the cost of their education before they could earn something.
And there is a huge list of such differences which emerge out of the different nature of these jobs.

Now coming back to the point. The needs of an industrial life style are very different from an agrarian life style. It is these different needs of the new economic system that force us to change our beliefs and values. Education merely legitimize those new beliefs.

It is no coincidence that democracy developed in the same days as Industrial revolution. As industrialization had created those new values which were required for better functioning of democracy.

Hitler, Holocaust, Nazism and 2nd World War are very recent phenomenon. Many people from those days are still alive. How come Nazi Germany started to function as liberal democracy soon after those turbulent years? Education alone cannot explain that because the change, that education brings, is slow and gradual in nature. The answer lies in their already developed industrial base. All they needed was to combine that industrial base with right kind of education and they were back on track.

Here comes the question of what a government needs to do to expand industry? Well, the answer really is nothing special. They don't need to get loans or convince investors or nationalize factories. Industry is like a virus; it will spread automatically if the circumstances are right. Investors need only one guarantee from govt. That is they wont be robbed off their possessions. If the law and order situation is as bad as it currently is then nobody will like to invest in our country. If police is corrupt, Judges are sold out and constitution is faulty then it would be huge risk to invest large sums of money in such a country. Therefore government's first and foremost duty should be provision the of law and order at any cost.

(Hope this post answers some of the questions raised in the thread. Pardon any spelling or grammar mistakes because I don't have time to review the post. Positive criticism is welcome.)

[QUOTE]and even if you do not agree with zero interest rate you still need a lot of time for economic stability.[/QUOTE]

But you won't need to bring radical administrative changes in the economic (and other) institutions. You won't need to bring critical changes in your foreign trade and economic relations with other countries. You won't need to realign your position in international economic treaties and conventions. And this all with our status as a third world country. None of this pain in the neck is required for democracy.

And even after all this, do we have a clearly defined road map that can tell us how it would effect us, in the 21st century, at each and every stage? We do have that democracy. Do we have any example of a modern state who eliminated interest and continued to develop? No, we don't. But we do have scores of such examples for democracy. Hollow assumptions and theoretical bragging is what interest-free economy is.

[QUOTE]but here we are speaking about politics so would you enlighten political duds like me about various schools of political philosophy?[/QUOTE]

There are several major ones and then more sub-categories. You can read about them on the internet. But if there is any specific matter related to the discussion at hand, you can post it here.

@Aaqib Javed:

That was very nicely explained, I must say. Industrialization is anyway inevitable. And the kind of "Islamic system" concepts we have in mind can only work in the medieval ages and feudal societies. In an industrial and modern society, such systems can only reside in confused heads.

@mhmmdkashif
 

[QUOTE]Yeah such figure would perhaps use the same tactics as Hitler and Mussolini, but not pursuit racism and would perhaps give out a different ideology closer to islamic faith. Hitler rise and conflict between fascism and others was also a conflict between old and modern Europe remember
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]A strong belief in a cause of course, not in personal power . And looking at Pakistanis who are even willing to follow a rookie demagogue like Qadri, chances of this country being taken over by a pursuasive and intelligent demagogue like Hitler remain very high.[/QUOTE]

We have found a great man! Our new caliph Abu Bakar Baghdadi!

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;741967]Thank you brother you have really put in an effort and I truly appreciate it, but my questions would perhaps keep coming so let's hope I make reasonable questions that don't cause bothering :).

So let's dig into environment, as I deduced from previous discussion 'democracy' behave differently in different environments like the differences in France and America. But it also remains a fact that democracies are intricately tangled with each other for economic interests so the dominant economy remains influential over others and it mixes up cultures such that no environment is able to maintain it's unique attributes. Thus in practice french taxing the rich doesn't really translate into any change for the middle class because the capital then flies to America (perhaps you noted it in a prior discussion as well). Moreover Muslims are 'highly sensitive' about their culture and religion, so in order to maintain 'uniqueness' of 'Islamic democracy' and save it from 'satanic lusts', all Muslim countries would require making a central democratic state and build an economy that can compete with 'infidel' but that is far fetched so any single Muslim nation if embarked on path of democracy soon finds out it can no longer maintain it because people eventually don't give it required support and radical militants start to arise. How to counter that problem :)



'Feudal state' of Pakistan is perhaps a positive sign for democracy because modern democracy arose from feudal states. It means that the people of Pakistan know the worth of wealth and how it is produced. It makes us different than the Arabs in a way that we had a rich competitive agricultural economy unlike Arabs who largely relied on wartime economies. So it can be argued that if people are 'educated' and rapid industrialization takes place which would create jobs then perhaps we will have a flourishing democratic state here in Pakistan. But there lies significant challenges. First of all 'feudal state' existed only in eastern half of Pakistan where Punjab and Sindh lies, whereas the western half where KPK and Balochistan lies have historically posed military challenges to the 'feudal states' and even today we are witnessing that. Now that poses a daunting challenge because it would not only require 'educating' people of that area but also change their entire 'life styles' from nomadic tribal to a settled urban society. Achieving that would be highly challenging and, perhaps, bloody all along the path. So that poses an economic and social challenge to establishing democracy here in Pakistan. Moreover, as I tried to point out earlier, religion gives you an entirely different 'cause' of living than the one you would be pursuing in a democratic state. Islam being such a simple and strong faith as it is, Muslims have a very strong belief in its cause even in a world where religiosity is waning so sharply, and when you have strong belief in a cause you will resist changing it's values very aggressively :D. Thus as soon as a democratic state is established in Pakistan and links itself with the so called 'infidel' world, it is bound to remain under influence of foreign cultures and even bring it home. This prompts a resistance from Muslims and perhaps these times which we are going through is a best example of how it goes. [B]Even if popular support for radicalism decline, we would perhaps face a depression and people will avoid working to produce more and more 'wealth' (which is perceived negatively), thus affecting the growth of economy. [/B]Again the 'environment' would be ripe for a brilliant 'demagogue', if not military, to uproot and discard democracy for good (or bad or whatever :D, heil hitler :D). This would pose a religious challenge to establishing 'democracy in the environment of Pakistan' :D.

So let me make it very simple, path to democracy in Pakistan is very very long, tiresome, and perhaps violent and bloody. And in the end, if successful, we again 'risk' a shaky faith highly dreaded for Muslims in particular. Does it worth it??? :D :D[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I didn't understand this point. Why would we face a depression if the popular support for radicalism goes down?

[QUOTE=waqas izhar;742119]i got questions too. Alinaa was very kind to point to point out that 'education' is the key to success for a democracy. what kind of education? Utilitarian or value based?

regards[/QUOTE]
Education is a very interesting topic to discuss. I, myself, have a couple of questions to ask if a new thread is started on it. But right now I want to ask is that being an economics student, you still deny the concept of "scarcity" so clearly you have enough evidence that there isn't any. Please can you share the links with us to substantiate your point. Secondly, I wanted to ask please can you give us an example of a successful interest-free economy in today's world?
I am just here to learn so that's why asked you these questions, thank you.


[QUOTE=Aaqib Javed;742297]Each society works to achieve a set of [B]values[/B], which are general conceptions of what is good, right, desirable, or important. Examples may include obedience, freedom, fitness, modesty, honesty and self-esteem etc. Most of these values are pretty consistent across cultures like honesty and health.

How does a society ensure that its members are respecting its values? Well, they use sanctions, both formal and informal. Formal sanctions refer to laws enacted by a legislature, violation of which laws leads to punishment by state. Informal sanctions refer to milder punishments by society like if we haven't washed our hands before eating, then our mother might frown at us and lecture us.

But some values do not receive same importance in one culture as they do in another culture. For example liberty and individualism are valued more in secular western societies while in religious societies obedience and loyalty are deemed more important. Why this inconsistency? This leads us to [B]Beliefs[/B], which are conceptions that people accept as true concerning how the world operates. Secular people who believe in science and not in religions will prize liberty. While religious people, who believe in some book and its God, will stress obedience to God's word as their prime value.


Let's assume we see a problem with our society and want to improve that problem. How can we do it? For that, we will have to point out where the problem lies. It can either be an issue with the enforcement of our values. Like we may need better laws, or better enforcement of the laws which are already in place.

[B]OR[/B]

It could be that we have a problem with our values; that some of the values we have are causing the problems and in order to improve the society we will have to replace those faulty values with better values. If a truly democratic culture is the objective, then the values like feudal power, patriarchy, obedience, and female modesty can be questioned. How can we change values? As shown in a paragraph above, values stem from beliefs and to change values we will have to change the beliefs of a people. It's very often observed that the problems which are linked with wrong values get the treatment, from our govt and media, as if they are associated with wrong laws or poor enforcement.



How beliefs can be changed? Its simplest answer is education. But this leads to another question that why would people get education? The answer is Industrialization. In fact, modern education system developed as a response to Industrial Revolution. In other words, Industry creates more attractive jobs than agriculture and to get those jobs people will get education. In short, Industrial jobs act as an incentive to motivate people to get education.

Now although the primary function of education is to enhance the productivity and skill set of a person, modern education also kind of brain washes people to respect certain moral values. This is made possible by the fact that enhanced productivity that results from education kind of liberates a person from the constant struggle for survival as with his technical skills he is capable of making a living easily. Moreover, more information about universe and cause and effect relations frees the educated person from stereotypes.

[B]But here is a critical thing to consider about the importance Industrialization. What if government provides education to people even if no industrialization is happening. Will education still be able to achieve the desired change?

My answer would be a NO. Industrialization is not important for merely promoting education but rather it represents a life style. A life style that is very different form traditional agricultural life style. [/B]Here are a few differences

--Family is the producing unit in agrarian societies as men, women and children all do some valuable economic work for the upkeep of their farm or livestock. Where as in Industrial societies there is no such interdependence on family members and men and women work in factories or firms in their individual capacity.
--More children meant more and free labor force for the farm in an agrarian society. But in an Industrial society more children mean more burden because a parent will have to bear the cost of their education before they could earn something.
And there is a huge list of such differences which emerge out of the different nature of these jobs.

Now coming back to the point. The needs of an industrial life style are very different from an agrarian life style. It is these different needs of the new economic system that force us to change our beliefs and values. Education merely legitimize those new beliefs.

It is no coincidence that democracy developed in the same days as Industrial revolution. As industrialization had created those new values which were required for better functioning of democracy.

Hitler, Holocaust, Nazism and 2nd World War are very recent phenomenon. Many people from those days are still alive. How come Nazi Germany started to function as liberal democracy soon after those turbulent years? Education alone cannot explain that because the change, that education brings, is slow and gradual in nature. The answer lies in their already developed industrial base. All they needed was to combine that industrial base with right kind of education and they were back on track.

Here comes the question of what a government needs to do to expand industry? Well, the answer really is nothing special. They don't need to get loans or convince investors or nationalize factories. Industry is like a virus; it will spread automatically if the circumstances are right. Investors need only one guarantee from govt. That is they wont be robbed off their possessions. If the law and order situation is as bad as it currently is then nobody will like to invest in our country. If police is corrupt, Judges are sold out and constitution is faulty then it would be huge risk to invest large sums of money in such a country. Therefore government's first and foremost duty should be provision the of law and order at any cost.

(Hope this post answers some of the questions raised in the thread. Pardon any spelling or grammar mistakes because I don't have time to review the post. Positive criticism is welcome.)[/QUOTE]

About this highlighted point, I just wanted to ask what desired change are you aiming at here?

[B][COLOR="Indigo"]@All : I am just here to learn so your responses would be highly appreciated, thank you.[/COLOR][/B]

[QUOTE=Aliinaa;742334]Sorry, I didn't understand this point. Why would we face a depression if the popular support for radicalism goes down?
[/QUOTE]

If popular support for radicalism goes down, but still people don't change 'collectivist' values for favor of 'capitalist' ones, you are gonna have a depression where politics remains one the rise everywhere and economic activities remain 'slowed down' or not producing wealth :D. Perhaps it is called 'class tension' or something :D.

[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156]I’m not sure how much capital flies to American and to what extent it affects France.[/QUOTE]

Ok let's come back to Pakistan :D. Obviously there is evidence that capital flies from here, even criminal money flies and is never returned. Considering ground realities of Pakistan as well, I don't know if I should link this but perhaps it is the major source of distrust for democracy in Pakistan.


[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156]But I think the number of people in favor of democratic structure is steadily growing in Pakistan at least which is a good sign. An important thing we should need is the support of the religious scholars and while there are a few prominent ones who do favor democratic setup, it would take time to see if democracy enjoys popular religious support.[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't believe what Pakistanis say, because they act differently and never take a stand for their word, often making claims like 'halat kaa taqaza tha ham ne keh dia' :D. So pardon me if I disagree here. Pakistani people show a very slave like attitude, like if for today you beat the drum of democracy they will like it and the tomorrow you beat the drum of the most ruthless tyrannical murderous dictatorship they will like it. Pakistan is a very fertile land for all kinds of crops.

[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156] Now it would be important to distinguish between how things actually work and how we wish them to work. Obviously many Pakistanis have lofty wishes of conquering the world, acting like the great warriors of the old, and such. And there are a lot of things people would like to do away with. But when you, as a nation, are at the lowest rungs of the world, you don’t have a real choice in a lot of things. It’s like a serf depending on a landlord who hardly has any say in most of the matters. Our aspirations certainly don’t match out actual circumstances. [/QUOTE]

Speaking of Pakistanis, I don't even believe they have evolved and that 'democracy' has gained any ground here. I ask you an honest question, do you really believe we have an independent judiciary and a free media??? Last night I heared Kamran Khan had to leave Geo 'under forcible conditions', and the icon of independent judiciary Justice Choudhry is right there for you... I mean I don't like Geo at all, but the way it was treated is perhaps not good for building a democratic culture in this country. It just reaffirmed that we still have tribal justice in a garbed form still working. The change that 'we think' has come is only 'urbanization' which has brought those same 'old attitudes' to urban environments, in a way creating 'urban feudalism'.



[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156]Good thing is, most of the population of the country resides in the Eastern half. But even in the other half, situation is already changing. Last 50 years have brought about significant changes at least in KPK where industrialization is on a rise, and that is the only solution. Education, and industrialization. Education really is a very powerful tool which can transform a nation, for good or for bad, even within a single generation. The case of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia is in point. [/QUOTE]

Well that's true. But let's first differentiate between 'education' and 'literacy' so let's focus what kind of 'education' is being given in Pakistan. Education is a thorough process of inculcation and indoctrination and it determines how individuals would behave economically, politically and religiously towards families, citizens, and the state, thus in a way your whole culture works like a school towards some goal :D. The educational discourse is largely designed by the state and the whole society participates in it. Basically in order to establish 'democracy' we would be requiring that values of democracy and capitalism are imparted in people's minds so that they become competitive and productive members of the society; however underlying Pakistani culture has deep rooted collectivist values which are protected by religious and tribal structure, and both the society and the state are reluctant to change that (atleast so far), either out of fear or 'lack of intention'. Therefore what Pakistani education produces is 'literate jaahils' I would say who only seek 'status' and seldom want 'professional attainment' :D, the contradictions in Pakistani education and 'intention' is noticeable perhaps. We can easily notice that 'wealth' is being destroyed for 'political power' (collectivism), or Pakistani economy is not producing economic opportunities, however Pakistani politics is indeed producing lot of opportunities for the opportunists :D. And perhaps another factor, which is Pakistanis are more interested in politics than work, so far hasn't changed. Politics is present in every institution, from law enforcement to judiciary to everywhere and results in corruption, nepotism, suppression and injustice.

So based upon my conclusion that since nobody is pursuing 'democracy through education' in Pakistan, it won't be able to achieve what Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia achieved by putting effort at every level in their education systems. Considering there are perhaps even bigger 'double standards' in Pakistani education system then the obviously noticed ones, thus so far we still have atleast a generation at hand of hypocrites who won't follow democracy in true letter and spirit :D. Considering that the whole culture is a large 'school', it will evolve to its maturity perhaps, but so far there is no honest effort in that direction. Basically those who want real democracy are only praying for that and relying upon influence of 'global village' to make changes (perhaps that 'influence' has changed thinking but the attitudes as I notice are still the same), and political opportunists are still 'lurking' to reap the fruit of 'democratic power for themselves' :D. By the time 'prayers' come true we would perhaps have this uncertainty.

BTW Soviet Russia had similar conditions viz. feudalism and rural agrarian society; and we can easily notice that Stalin had to cause deaths of millions in order to rapidly change that country :D. So perhaps we may not push for rapid changes :D.

[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156]The real trouble, as I see, would be from the radically religious section of the country (we already are having that bloody experience). How long will this continue and how it would affect the country is yet to be seen. [/QUOTE]

I also share these concerns with you :vic



[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156] The thing is, transformation of values is not a conscious process. From our parents to us a lot of things have changed and we seldom even think about it.[/QUOTE]

Well I believe transformation of values is controlled by nature. Values have these flexible boundaries and are intricately connected which allow for maneuvering of practices and still provide justification; thus it is only practices that change and we don't even notice it. However as soon as it is felt that all boundaries are crossed it creates tension, which may either result in conflict or peaceful solutions (by dialogue and debate, as allowed by democracy) to change previously followed values :D. So it basically depends upon how your culture is shaped and around what values. But that would be a separate debate I guess.

[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156]Consider the case of Jamat-e-Islami. There are a lot of educated religious people who vote for Jamat. Obviously, Jamat calls for an Islamic system (which is a meaningless term, I myself having Jamati background can testify to that).[/QUOTE]

Having Jamaati background, do you really believe Jamaat, if given an opportunity, will work to promote democratic culture in this country???


[QUOTE=Gypsified;742156] It will be long, it might be tiresome, bloody even, but the thing is, unless I’m given an alternative, and not just the name of an alternative but a detailed roadmap such as the one that exists for democracy, I don’t see any other option. [/QUOTE]

I too don't see any other option than democracy, but I don't see any real progress in that direction so basically it 'worries' me where are we heading :D.

To sum all the garbage in one line, people of Pakistan expect a 'welfare state' from a poor economy which democracy cannot provide unless it controls at least a sizable economy. Thus to avoid the burden of work, people create trouble for democracy :D.

[QUOTE=Buddha;742332]We have found a great man! Our new caliph Abu Bakar Baghdadi![/QUOTE]

There you go, now the fuehrer baghdadi will wipe out every jew from the face of earth and 're-distribute' all the wealth to the needy and poor :D heil baghdadi