"Blasphemy" Shifting Paradigms...
 

As the Oxford Dictionary states
"[B]The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk[/B]
and the Merriam Webster Dictionary as
[B]Irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable[/B]
and most appropriately by the same Dictionary as
[B][I]Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for deities, to religious or holy persons or things, or toward something considered sacred or inviolable.[/I][/B]

[B]Status of Blasphemy in other religions [/B]

Among Jews and Christians, the "Book of Leviticus" (Old testament) states that

[COLOR="Purple"]"The Jewish law is based on the case of the blasphemer, one of the mixed multitude that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel (Lev. xxiv. 10-23). He blasphemed the name of the Lord and cursed; was sentenced to be taken without the camp; and it was decreed that all who heard him should lay their hands upon his head, and that all the congregation should stone him. The judgment in his case was formulated in a general law in verses 15 and 16."[/COLOR]

[B]What if any heathen has done a blasphemy, or any Jew has abused the names of heathen gods?[/B]

[COLOR="purple"]Although, according to Jewish law, a Jew who blasphemed a heathen deity was not guilty of the crime of blasphemy, Josephus ("Ant." iv. 8, § 10, after Philo, "Vita Mosis," 26; ed. Mangey, ii. 166) to the contrary notwithstanding, yet a heathen might be guilty if he blasphemed the name of the Lord (Baraita Sanh. 56a). The crime of the heathen blasphemer, though subjecting him to the penalty of death, did not oblige the Jewish by-standers to rend their garments. The Talmud bases the custom of rending the garments in such cases upon the Biblical precedent in II Kings xviii. 37)[/COLOR]

Means if any Jew has done the crime, he will not be punished and on contrary to it, if any heathen has done the crime, he will be punished.

In [I]Hinduism[/I] their is no such consistent law is present.

In [B]Buddhism[/B], it speaks about the reaction of Lord Buddha if someone used to insult him. According to it, the Lord Buddha appreciated to not indulge in such discussion or even if any such thing happens, forgive them.

[B]Status of Blasphemy in Islam[/B]

There is no clear verse present in Quran and no Hadith of Holy Prophet (PBUH) is present which can describe the punishment of Blasphemy.
In Sunnah one such example is present

[COLOR="purple"]The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:270, see also Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:59:369, Sahih Muslim, 19:4436 Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:45:687 Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:271 [/COLOR]

But this is just one example (having two facets as well) as against dozens in which Holy Prophet (PBUH) forgiven all

1. Stoning of Holy Prophet PBUH by Taif hooligans.
2. Garbage thrown by an Old Lady.
3. Hide of dead animal thrown on him while praying.
4. Abusing him with words like "Majnoon" ""Fabricator" "Liar". There are nearly 200 places in Quran but along with them there is no punishment present.

In all such cases Holy Prophet (PBUH) forgiven the culprits and not only forgiven but prayed for their forgiveness from Allah and to show them the right path...

[B]Stance of Ehl-e-Sunnat WalJamaat[/B]

State is responsible for the punishment of such people according to the law. Individuals are not allowed to take the law in their hands according to Shariah. There will be investigation regarding this and if the person in question is found guilty, he or she will be sentenced to death by the state.

[B]Case of Ka'b ibn Al-Ashraf[/B]

He was a Madiniite and there was a treaty among the people of Madina that there will be no collusion with the Makkahns.
Ka'b ibn al Ashraf has colluded with Makkahns, taken money from Abu Sufyan to mock the Holy Prophet PBUH and the martyred Muslims.
His murder was more political then personal in nature.
One more cause of his murder is said to be when all Jewish tribes were accused for treason against the state of Madina. And for treason there is always a sentence of death in every religion,nation and country even in the present time.

[B]Muslims' Unjustified reaction towards Blasphemy[/B]

[B][COLOR="purple"]Firstly[/COLOR][/B]

Individually or in a mob the lynching of any person accused of blasphemy is not allowed and state is responsible for punishment.

[B][COLOR="purple"]Secondly[/COLOR]
[/B]
There are certain sects among Muslims as well in which there is a practice of "Organized Blasphemy" (as the definition implies) against the sacred personalities of religion. And the followers of such sects are in millions.

There are dozens of books written by Authentic and reverend Muslim (Both Shia and Sunnis) Scholars in which there are certain sentences which can be taken as clear "Blasphemy" against even "Holy Prophet PBUH"...And the followers of such scholars are in millions as well.

When there are wolves in our hordes then why we are blaming people of other religions, ignorant to our traditions and customs?

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;778356]As the Oxford Dictionary states
"[B]The action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk[/B]
and the Merriam Webster Dictionary as
[B]Irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable[/B]
and most appropriately by the same Dictionary as
[B][I]Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for deities, to religious or holy persons or things, or toward something considered sacred or inviolable.[/I][/B]

[B]Status of Blasphemy in other religions [/B]

Among Jews and Christians, the "Book of Leviticus" (Old testament) states that

[COLOR="Purple"]"The Jewish law is based on the case of the blasphemer, one of the mixed multitude that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel (Lev. xxiv. 10-23). He blasphemed the name of the Lord and cursed; was sentenced to be taken without the camp; and it was decreed that all who heard him should lay their hands upon his head, and that all the congregation should stone him. The judgment in his case was formulated in a general law in verses 15 and 16."[/COLOR]

[B]What if any heathen has done a blasphemy, or any Jew has abused the names of heathen gods?[/B]

[COLOR="purple"]Although, according to Jewish law, a Jew who blasphemed a heathen deity was not guilty of the crime of blasphemy, Josephus ("Ant." iv. 8, § 10, after Philo, "Vita Mosis," 26; ed. Mangey, ii. 166) to the contrary notwithstanding, yet a heathen might be guilty if he blasphemed the name of the Lord (Baraita Sanh. 56a). The crime of the heathen blasphemer, though subjecting him to the penalty of death, did not oblige the Jewish by-standers to rend their garments. The Talmud bases the custom of rending the garments in such cases upon the Biblical precedent in II Kings xviii. 37)[/COLOR]

Means if any Jew has done the crime, he will not be punished and on contrary to it, if any heathen has done the crime, he will be punished.

In [I]Hinduism[/I] their is no such consistent law is present.

In [B]Buddhism[/B], it speaks about the reaction of Lord Buddha if someone used to insult him. According to it, the Lord Buddha appreciated to not indulge in such discussion or even if any such thing happens, forgive them.

[B]Status of Blasphemy in Islam[/B]

There is no clear verse present in Quran and no Hadith of Holy Prophet (PBUH) is present which can describe the punishment of Blasphemy.
In Sunnah one such example is present

[COLOR="purple"]The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:270, see also Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:59:369, Sahih Muslim, 19:4436 Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:45:687 Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:271 [/COLOR]

But this is just one example (having two facets as well) as against dozens in which Holy Prophet (PBUH) forgiven all

1. Stoning of Holy Prophet PBUH by Taif hooligans.
2. Garbage thrown by an Old Lady.
3. Hide of dead animal thrown on him while praying.
4. Abusing him with words like "Majnoon" ""Fabricator" "Liar". There are nearly 200 places in Quran but along with them there is no punishment present.

In all such cases Holy Prophet (PBUH) forgiven the culprits and not only forgiven but prayed for their forgiveness from Allah and to show them the right path...

[B]Stance of Ehl-e-Sunnat WalJamaat[/B]

State is responsible for the punishment of such people according to the law. Individuals are not allowed to take the law in their hands according to Shariah. There will be investigation regarding this and if the person in question is found guilty, he or she will be sentenced to death by the state.

[B]Case of Ka'b ibn Al-Ashraf[/B]

He was a Madiniite and there was a treaty among the people of Madina that there will be no collusion with the Makkahns.
Ka'b ibn al Ashraf has colluded with Makkahns, taken money from Abu Sufyan to mock the Holy Prophet PBUH and the martyred Muslims.
His murder was more political then personal in nature.
One more cause of his murder is said to be when all Jewish tribes were accused for treason against the state of Madina. And for treason there is always a sentence of death in every religion,nation and country even in the present time.

[B]Muslims' Unjustified reaction towards Blasphemy[/B]

[B][COLOR="purple"]Firstly[/COLOR][/B]

Individually or in a mob the lynching of any person accused of blasphemy is not allowed and state is responsible for punishment.

[B][COLOR="purple"]Secondly[/COLOR]
[/B]
There are certain sects among Muslims as well in which there is a practice of "Organized Blasphemy" (as the definition implies) against the sacred personalities of religion. And the followers of such sects are in millions.

There are dozens of books written by Authentic and reverend Muslim (Both Shia and Sunnis) Scholars in which there are certain sentences which can be taken as clear "Blasphemy" against even "Holy Prophet PBUH"...And the followers of such scholars are in millions as well.

When there are wolves in our hordes then why we are blaming people of other religions, ignorant to our traditions and customs?[/QUOTE]


[B]What kind of barbaric people are we Pakistanis? Christian couple accused of blasphemy were burned alive. Just take a moment & imagine yourselves as the couple in this story and really think about that.

In Pakistan where it is well known that the Blasphemy Law is used and misused according to whims and wishes, no non-Muslim would dare to do such an offense called 'Blasphemy'.

This law must be repealed.We should ignore people who are guilty of blasphemy and tell them that the greatest man whom you are targeting in your acts of blasphemy is the one who has taught us to ignore what you are committing.


[/B]

Media systematically propagandizes against the blasphemy law in Shar'iah, any unjust attempt to hurt minority is deplorable, agreed, but the way media defames Pakistan and Islam is suggestive of malice, funded propaganda against us. Some "evil" Christians of the West desire blasphemy law be repealed in Pakistan; this country was founded in the name of Islam, with Allah, the Mightiest and His law, being the Sovereign in Pakistan, hence no whatsoever propagandized morality can override the rule of Allah. For further guidance, consult the Constitution, if anyone has issues with the blasphemy law.

Blasphemy law should repealed. There should be no such law in existence. No matter how modified a law we have, Muslims of Pakistan who are choke-full with religious fanaticism (including their conspiracy-afflicted "educated" and "moderate" apologists who have set new standards in ignorance and bigotry) will continue to "misuse" (an apologist's word, not mine) it.

There should be no such law. Period. Anyone trying to act as judge and "punishing" a blasphemy accused should face the law. This is the only way to deal with this evil.

The blasphemy law does never state to hang or lynch the convict allegedly. The state is responsible to make such decisions provided a proper evidence. The lack of educating people and lack of law and order prevalent in a society gives rise to such issues. Such incidents pose Pakistani Muslims no less than a barbaric nation globally. These convicts do not actually make any harm to our religion but it's we, who are maliciously representing our religion to the world. According to the reports, the mosques and mullas have fanned the issue so they are equally responsible for blood feud of the couple as the mobs are. Please educate the mullas and the nation about the rights of minorities.

[QUOTE=Mohammad Ali;778433]Media systematically propagandizes against the blasphemy law in Shar'iah, any unjust attempt to hurt minority is deplorable, agreed, but the way media defames Pakistan and Islam is suggestive of malice, funded propaganda against us. Some "evil" Christians of the West desire blasphemy law be repealed in Pakistan; this country was founded in the name of Islam, with Allah, the Mightiest and His law, being the Sovereign in Pakistan, hence no whatsoever propagandized morality can override the rule of Allah. For further guidance, consult the Constitution, if anyone has issues with the blasphemy law.[/QUOTE]

I agree. But there is need to reform this society of misusing the law. The panacea to exempt the cruelty and injustice propelling from this law is by applying the metaphor 'tit for tat'. Those who take the state's responsibility on their shoulders should be killed publicly the way people are killed by their hands or less be punished of life imprisonment.

[QUOTE]But there is need to reform this society of misusing the law.[/QUOTE]

There should be no law of death penalty in the first place. As pointed out in the original post (and made amply clear by history) there is no such precedence from the life of the Prophet and early Islam. The current blasphemy laws of Islam are based on an extremely narrow interpretation of Quranic verses which hardly makes any sense. At most, people who desecrate Quran and commit blasphemy (if substantial evidence is there) can face the fine or imprisonment of a few months, that is, after they are given the option of retraction and apology. But death for such a crime is nothing but barbarity which has become a hallmark of modern-day Muslims.

So this black law, as it exists, needs to be abolished. A law that is itself barbaric will inevitably be "misused".

Why this blunder always happened in Punjab Why ?????:oo:oo:oo:oo

Bushra, if the state itself utterly fails to assume responsibility for acting against the wrongs of its subjects, whether it be right or wrong, individual citizens will come forth to enforce the law. In Salman Taseer's case, he was the representative of state, he did not let the law take its course, she was sentenced to death as per law and he intervened partially in favor of the convict; meaning to say, the state in place of administering the law, is letting off the criminal here, what naturally or choicelessly led a citizen to take the law into his own hands. For clarification purpose, I do not support an individual's enforcement of the law, only so long as the state does bring to book the accused of this shameful crime, timely.

Now what I am implicitly against is some Roman Catholic Church in the West or paid servile flatterers of the West in Pakistani media dictating this Islamic Republic of Pakistan to repeal the law just because it guards the honor of Holy Prophet (endless peace and abundant blessings of Allah be upon him), that is what I am innately against and shall, till I breathe my last, be, "fortunately", along with the mass majority of Pakistan that lacks means to come register their views on social media in opposition to yours' or your likes'.

I appreciate you agreed to my standpoint, though the agreement was, to an excessive degree, meager. :)

I would support the cause of repealing blasphemy law, rather there should be no law at all in Pakistan. Even traffic cops 'misuse' the trafic laws to gain bribes on daily basis hahaha :D. Let there be a fight and the winner establish the new order :D.

But anyways, most of the deaths that have occurred in popularized cases of blasphemy were lynchings, there have been very few convictions. It means that it is a popular trend in some areas of the country, there is very little persecution by the state. Neither we have had any radical government which could use this law to persecute minorities. Even the most religiously zealous regime, compared to others, that of Zia ul Haq which enacted this law, didn't appear to make any extensive use of this particular law to meet it's ambition of curbing political opposition. It means directly condemning presence of a law which is perceived as sign of a Islamic State by the people is counterproductive and it fuels religious tensions. You need to deal with the popular trend first and then be a watchdog over the actions of the state in implementing this particular law I suppose :D.

But a problem can only be solved by a people who see the problem and make a resolve to solve it. We are a people who create problems for ourselves and then make cries to gain attention and free stuff. That's the survival strategy of people living in this part of the world :D. If you can notice it, it happens everyday, everyone is crying but yet there is no solution to any problem, rather no problem at all, because everyone knows the problems are artificial and there is always someone to blame :D.

The point to be made was it's not presence of a law that is causing problems, atleast in this case, but it's a popular trend in which people settle some personal score by rousing the emotions of a mob through using religion. Therefore the people who committed these acts don't belong to Islam and must be punished, and we need to make sure they don't get away with it. It should be made a public trial where everyone sees the proceedings, and those who incited the mob and those who committed murder all get death. If the prosecution proves weak then it's prblem with the prosecution and that should be addressed. If religious groups start acting like mafia in order to get the perpetrators free then they should be condemned. If the state proves weak then that problem should be addressed. Every step be taken to insure that justice is served. We have so many real problems that we can address and correct with this incident, but only pointing presence of a particular law to be root of the problem is, in my view, nothing short of criminal opportunism and a diversion tactic. We must understand that laws are misused only by the government and state functionaries, mobs just do what they want without regard to any law whether it's there or not.

an insight into blasphemy law which never got published sadly :(
 

Blasphemy law is another colonial heritage retained by Pakistan. It originated from 1927 religious riots of india and is moulded by successive regimes of Pakistan. It underwent amendments and additions peculiar to our understanding of religion. The blasphemy law of Pakistan has always been an issue of debate at home and for the rest of world as well. At one side of fence are people who want to repeal the law all at once, on the other side are those who consider it their duty to punish every alleged blaphemer. Add to it, the opportunists who use the law for their personal ends. So is there a problem with the law itself or the rot is with in us. The answer to this question lies in some more questions.

Is there a need for this law. Yes. WHy? Because people of Pakistan attatch great value to the issue of blasphemy. And through sociological perspective any issue of that value must be brought into the fold of law, for social stability to exist. Upon this law lies the mutual consensus of majority of Pakistan. Repealing the law would not change anything. Those who kill blasphemers will keep on killing them and those who mourn over these killings will keep on doing there work. The presence of law infact keeps the debate alive and gives security to the accused indirectly, through its very presence the rant of mob is negated by saying "why aint they knocking the door of justice when there lies a proper law for such case." Its absence will leave the anti law group helpless, and pro law group hopeless. Hence, many more people will take the honor of taking justice into their own hands.

Is law fulfilling the needs of status quo? well yes the law is fulfilling, its the failure of law enforcing agencies which is failing the law as well. If we see the section 295 A and 295 B in chap 16 of Pakistan Penal Code, death penalty is not the sole punishment, imprisonment and fine are also the options in this law. Moreover,Muslims are not immune to this law. So it helps in respecting every religion, theoretically.
Is blasphemy law only found in Pakistan? No. They are found all over the world, though death sentence is not the punishment anymore. Even in Pakistan, not a single person has ever been hanged through this law. Holocaust denial laws are as zealously followed in european countries as any law to deal with religious insult. Interestingly, Holocaust denial law is as if Pakistan make a two nation theory denial law. But still no hue and cry is found against this law.

Where does the problem lie: problem is not the law problem is the lawlessness and the hypocrisy to cover that lawlesslness. Problem is our national character. In a country where every law is abused why shall any one wonder over misuse of just one law. If we start repealing laws on basis of misuse then we'll have to burn the whole book of law and burry its ashes. We kill our sisters and mothers and call it honour. We fail to provide basic rights to a community and call the outcomes a conspiracy of foreign hands. We pick up people whom we dislike and kill them after declaring traitors. How can we spare such a handy law. We even marry our women with the holy Quran, isn't it blasphemy

In my opinion misusing the law of blasphemy is itself blasphemy. The perpetrators must be punished through same law. Also mass awareness on this issue must be brought about,through media. Primary education must include introduction to multiple faiths and specifically how to deal with an issue of blasphemy must be taught. Otherwise prevalent behaviours will keep on multiplying through conditioning. Without this, nothing would work, no matter how many laws you make or repeal.


Note: its just my opinion people on either side of fence can choose to ignore it.

[QUOTE=sadafazam;778982]
Where does the problem lie: problem is not the law problem is the lawlessness and the hypocrisy to cover that lawlesslness. Problem is our national character. In a country where every law is abused why shall any one wonder over misuse of just one law. If we start repealing laws on basis of misuse then we'll have to burn the whole book of law and burry its ashes. We kill our sisters and mothers and call it honour. We fail to provide basic rights to a community and call the outcomes a conspiracy of foreign hands. We pick up people whom we dislike and kill them after declaring traitors. How can we spare such a handy law. We even marry our women with the Holy Quran, isn't it blasphemy.

[/QUOTE]

Cent percent same thoughts I had 2 days before especially this marriage with Quran issue...But kept my self aloof from this controversial topic when I saw people are still in favour of blasphemy law..Such articles never get published...I had written a whole account but it will be better to keep away...A little excerpt which I wrote just during my coffee break...
I had written each and every sect of Islam with proves, how they are blasphemous and how their highly exalted Ulemas in their books have written obscenities..All sects..Shia,Sunni,Deobandis,Wahabis, Marzais etc...But I can't write here on forum because I'm sure I will start getting Reputations of Anti-Religious etc etc...So, I took a little milder side of the card. Not milder though much as well..


[COLOR="green"][SIZE="4"][SIZE="3"]Blasphemy is a small word[/SIZE] for societies where injustice is the principle, basic human rights are violated and their poor weak masses are downtrodden in the hell of unpaid toils. Where respect is for those who just in their prides have hidden vendetta of looting the masses and disrespect for those who stand firm in protecting their rights. When hypocrisy is regarded as “one’s high capability of survival” in the society and piety of one’s character is his inability to cope with the ground realities. Dignity of character becomes an obsolete cult. Where character of a Man is judged by the luxuries he kept, as a symbol of success. Successful are those who have gathered all materials of life and made records in lechery. Where Mr. Justice is a stain on the face of justice. Where teachers, the symbols of civilization, are found raping their disciples, the most bizarre face of the society.

And All this is happening in the era when Man is aware of all high moralities, outcomes of obscenities and every single matter of life is crystal clear.

When in a day 1000’s of verses of Quran and Hadith gets violated by those who claim themselves as “saviors of their religion”. When the words uttered by their Prophet PBUH are thrown daily thousands of times in the backs.
Pakistan’s ideology got demolished on the very first day when first Prime Minister belonging to “Capitalist” or “Communist” ideologies was elected. Pakistani masses had rejected “Islam” as their ideology on that very day. Whole Pakistan Muslim nation had became “Apostate” on that very first day. And apostasy is even bigger crime than “Blasphemy”…Am I Right or Wrong?
Don’t you think, then whole Muslim nation should be stoned to death?????
We must do some self-assessment as well… If we as a nation never stood firm for our religion then we have no right to issue a decree on a non-Muslim rejecting or abusing our religion.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[B]P.S:- This Idea of whole Muslim Nation must be stoned to death is very near to "Taliban's Idea" plus "Khwarij's" idea that all Muslims except them are "Apostates", so they should be blasted.
Here some people are saying "If state delays the justice in such case, individuals had to come up, must have to shift their paradigms now. [/B]

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;779014]But kept my self aloof from this controversial topic when I saw people are still in favour of blasphemy law..[/QUOTE]

Let me make my self clear :D, I am neither in favor of this law nor against it, if clear reason is given to me as to how this law is causing problems then I would support repealing it. Right now what I see is we are just in that habit of crying about problem in order to get world attention :D.

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;779026]Let me make my self clear :D, I am neither in favor of this law nor against it, if clear reason is given to me as to how this law is causing problems then I would support repealing it. Right now what I see is we are just in that habit of crying about problem in order to get world attention :D.[/QUOTE]


Yes, there are people who get chance to increase their ratings and media is on the top of it.

While there was another shock of Load shedding I was reading a great article written by "Javed Iqbal" in Express Newspaper. He said that Iqbal written a letter to Quaid and asked
"Musalmanon k Ghairat k masley ko kaisey hal kiya jae"

Actually Muslims are handicapped in this issue...Jin Maamlaat men "Ghairat" dikhani chahye, un par khamosh hen aur jin Mamlaat men "ghairat" ko side pe rakh k "Aqal" se kaam lena chahye un men, aqal pe pardah parh jata he...Puri Qaum ki hesyat ek "Bhikari" se kam nahin...Sab se Brhe Peghambar PBUH ki Qaum sb se "Giri" hui...Iss par ghairat nahin ati...

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;779063]
"Musalmanon k Ghairat k masley ko kaisey hal kiya jae"
[/QUOTE]

on a personal note I think this word ghairat is much too obsolete now, it reminds of the old times when there were fights for women and lands :D thus the emotional response it triggers is of tribal hostility and vendetta, atleast to me it does haha. I suppose our language has stopped evolving with the ever changing life which might be a sign that our culture has already lived it's age and is going to be replaced.

I am surpirised to see aome comments for the repealing of this law...

Well, if we want to understand this matter, first of all we must decide what governs us our wishes or Shariah....(Quran and Sunnah)?

Well certainly Shariah governs us... and whatever is commanded by Sharia its obligatory for us to follow... whether we understand the hidden wisdom and benefit or not...

Our Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W. has ordered on the day of Victory of Makkah, to kill 7 or multiple (dont remember exact number) of People to be killed and they were to be killed even if they were right beside the Ka'ba... just feel the intensity of their crime... that they were to be killed even if they were beside Ka'ba.... so what was their crime....?

They were blasphemers....


Then there were consensus of Sahaba Razi Allahu Anhum on the matter and then so on...

So this topic must ends here... for reference you can check any authentic book of Hadith or Seerah...e.g. Al Raheequl Makhtoom...

Secondly, this matter is not of ghairat of Muslims only... rather, its matter of their faith and Aqeeda...! And when the governments or rulers, who are bound to act as Allah SWT's believers. .. fails to perform their duty... then as fulfilling their obligation, believers are forced to act...

However, I am not in favour nor support killing of blasphemers by individuals at first instance... rather their crime must be prosecuted and punished by the authorities.....
and solution of this matter is only implementation of law... problem arises when law doesn't takes its course... whether it is stopped on foreign pressure or due to our negligence. .. then people get furious and law and order situation is created... because if authorities fail to perform and implement Islamic Commandments then people will... as its matter of their Aqeeda...

So, best way is that authorities implement the law rather than playing in the hands of foreign powers. Take a case study of of notorious Salman Taseer... as mentioned by another worthy member.

In addition, if someone misuses, or falsely alleges such a henious offence against someone, he must be brought to justice as well and must get punishment in open trial... so that people know the truth.

(AND ALLA SWT KNOWS BEST)

May Allah SWT keep us all among the people on Haq and make us all His true believers. Aameen

And BTW, with regard to this latest tragedy of Kot Radha Kishan.... its all media speculation.... let the matter be fully and transparently investigated (which is difficult to say the least) then we should say something...that whether someone killed them on the allegation of blasphemy or not... at present it only appears as someone has settled his persoanl goals with the victims... and may be later on... it was portryaed as blasphemy related case by our foreign funded media....
(AND ALLAH SWT KNOWS BEST)

[QUOTE=MAA_LLM;779585]I am surpirised to see aome comments for the repealing of this law...

Well, if we want to understand this matter, first of all we must decide what governs us our wishes or Shariah....(Quran and Sunnah)?

Well certainly Shariah governs us... and whatever is commanded by Sharia its obligatory for us to follow... whether we understand the hidden wisdom and benefit or not...

Our Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W. has ordered on the day of Victory of Makkah, to kill 7 or multiple (dont remember exact number) of People to be killed and they were to be killed even if they were right beside the Ka'ba... just feel the intensity of their crime... that they were to be killed even if they were beside Ka'ba.... so what was their crime....?

They were blasphemers....


Then there were consensus of Sahaba Razi Allahu Anhum on the matter and then so on...

So this topic must ends here... for reference you can check any authentic book of Hadith or Seerah...e.g. Al Raheequl Makhtoom...

Secondly, this matter is not of ghairat of Muslims only... rather, its matter of their faith and Aqeeda...! And when the governments or rulers, who are bound to act as Allah SWT's believers. .. fails to perform their duty... then as fulfilling their obligation, believers are forced to act...

However, I am not in favour nor support killing of blasphemers by individuals at first instance... rather their crime must be prosecuted and punished by the authorities.....
and solution of this matter is only implementation of law... problem arises when law doesn't takes its course... whether it is stopped on foreign pressure or due to our negligence. .. then people get furious and law and order situation is created... because if authorities fail to perform and implement Islamic Commandments then people will... as its matter of their Aqeeda...

So, best way is that authorities implement the law rather than playing in the hands of foreign powers. Take a case study of of notorious Salman Taseer... as mentioned by another worthy member.

In addition, if someone misuses, or falsely alleges such a henious offence against someone, he must be brought to justice as well and must get punishment in open trial... so that people know the truth.

(AND ALLA SWT KNOWS BEST)

May Allah SWT keep us all among the people on Haq and make us all His true believers. Aameen[/QUOTE]

Kindly enlighten us in following questions?

Q no1. Did all blasphemers were rewarded with the same punishment?

Q no. 2 Which ratio exists the most? Ratio of forgiven people or the punished ones?
Say the total number of those punished were 8 including Ka'b.
Q no. 3.Al-Raheeq-AL Makhtoom can be the unanimous source of Islamic Law?

Q no. 4. When certain specific rulings are not present, Ijma or Qiyas can be practised or not? (For repealing the law)

Q no.5.According to Shariah, a person leaving Salah (without any sharai reason) should be punished...
According to one sect, he has became a "Apostate"? Will you present yourself today to the court for punishment? Or will drag your friend or family member to the court?
If not why?

Q no. 6. Do you think you are living in an Islamic state? where you can practise the Islamic Law against any one, not willing to be judged under this law, or is a Non-Muslim?

Q no 7.Had you (or we in majority) voted for Islam (or any political party with Islamic Ideology) in 2013 elections? Or will you in upcoming elections?

Q no.8 Jab hum behesyat Musalman apni individual, social, political life men khud apne ooper Islam naafiz karne men nakaam hen, to kiya jin logon par Islam ka naffaz hota hi nahin, un par naffaz krna drust he?

I know unanimously the law exists among all sects, blasphemers should be Punished to death...
It's Muharram, and there will be "Organized Blasphemy" (Tabarrah) in the whole World by Crores of Muslims, pass your judgement then in this case please. Kill them all? So, if I blast myself in them, I'm supposed to go to Jannah according to Shariah?

Ok. For a while accept everything...

One thing to be noteworthy here. As far as my knowledge of Islam concerns,Blasphemy, in it's organized form demands punishment.

All the Blasphemers who were punished were insisting the act. It's not like someone does once or twice. They were involved in this act consistently.Those who did it, once or twice were not killed otherwise there would be streams of blood in Makkah...
[B]
Second...Did any one burnt Quran and sentenced to death?[/B]

What about those thousands of Muslims who brought Quran on their dirty spears and swords in battle against Hazrat Ali R.A?
Or those Muslims who keep Quran as pillows under their heads? As it is observed in Arabia...

Qno 8. Repeat again.

I am beginning to sense a paradox, if the perpetrators were apprehended, tried and punished there would be calls Islam is in danger it's a Christian assault on our country. And if blasphemy law is criticized than it's media who is fueling it. It appears Muslims themselves are the biggest enemies of Islam. Muslims, particularly Pakistani Muslims, don't love the dignity and honor of holy prophet (SAW), they just use his name for power and politics and gain personal fame and fortune. It's tragic indeed. The liberal class of Pakistan wants to catch western attention whereas the islamists are seeking jihadi attention. What kind of slave people are we. We don't even know our interests, centuries of divide and rule and slavery is deep inside the brains it seems.

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;779629]I am beginning to sense a paradox, if the perpetrators were apprehended, tried and punished there would be calls Islam is in danger it's a Christian assault on our country. And if blasphemy law is criticized than it's media who is fueling it. It appears Muslims themselves are the biggest enemies of Islam. Muslims, particularly Pakistani Muslims, don't love the dignity and honor of holy prophet (SAW), they just use his name for power and politics and gain personal fame and fortune. It's tragic indeed. The liberal class of Pakistan wants to catch western attention whereas the islamists are seeking jihadi attention. What kind of slave people are we. We don't even know our interests, centuries of divide and rule and slavery is deep inside the brains it seems.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm bit disappointed about present scenario of Muslims as well...An apparent change is coming but with negative perspectives. Muslims are adopting the superficial characteristics of Modern age ignoring the core i.e Getting higher degrees and piece of paper is the coat, core is knowledge. Freedom of woman is to increase the working force, but how the freedom is going on everybody knows.
When Sheikh Rasheed says Bilawal "Billo Rani" it is not much wrong. You can go to see Billo Rani type "boys" in our universities...On Contrary, I've experience of seeing Australian Muscular Female Vets (being limited exposure up to profession level just) who just jump into the fields like Big Gladiators :), doing post mortems of large animals laughing and enjoying their work and looking at our "Mard-e-Musalman" who behave like "Touch me nots" just focussed to tweets and getting pics with foreigners to post on Facebook...
And our "Old is Gold" is not behind in this race...Our men become old at the age of 45 and they can't even imagine retiring at the age of 60...One of a Foreign Civil engineer I'd met was 80 years old, doing field visits so much active like they are just in their 30's...He said, "We Scottish people never get old"...
Same is true in every field of life here...This "Chauhdhrayat" is "innate" in us...And our so called "Prestige" is effected if someone calls them to do work...And we are in dilemma that it's "Modernism"...
This is a real picture of what is going on...
Those who know it, have the responsibility to work for this time...

Ae Khasa e Khasan e Rusul waqt e duaa hai...
Ummat pe tiree aakay ajab waqt parha hai

jo deen barhi shaan say nikla tha, watan say
pardais mein woh aaj ghareeb-ul-ghuraba hai

woh deen, huee bazm-e-jahaan', jiss say charaaghaan'
aaj iski majaaliss mein na batti na diyaa hai

jo deen keh tha shirk say aalam ka nigehbaan
ab iska nigehbaan', agar hai, to KHUDA hai

jiss deen nay ghairo kay thay dil aakay milaaye
iss deen mein khud bhai say ab bhai judaa hai

aalim hai so bay-aqal hai, jaahil hai so wehshi
mun'im hai so maghroor hai, mufliss so gadaa hai

choton mein itaa'at hai na shafqat hai b mein
pyaaron mein mohabbat hai na yaaron mein wafaa hai

faryaad hai aye kashti-e-ummat kay nigehbaan'
bera yeh tabaahi kay qareeb aa lagaa hai...

P.S :- I'm not a "Maulvi"...Never saw a Madrissa even...But what's going on in our "Madrissas" is not hidden even...

Don't know on what basis we call ourselves some "Lovers of Holy Prophet PBUH"...

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;779757]This "Chauhdhrayat" is "innate" in us...And our so called "Prestige" is effected if someone calls them to do work...[/QUOTE]

I often wonder how this culture evolved here, one aspect that comes to my mind is our culture evolved as a result of competition between hinduism and islam for influence. For example in pre-partition sub continent Muslims were largely land owning aristocrats while Hindus were traders and businessman. Muslims held tremendous influence over local tribes and clans who often distrusted hindus and remained jealous of their progress. Therefore instead of working and progressing a culture of fear, jealousy and distrust evolved which continues to this day and now it is causing many problems as we are unable to build an economy and a vibrant society and still our nation survives as long as india remains an enemy :D.

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;779765]I often wonder how this culture evolved here, one aspect that comes to my mind is our culture evolved as a result of competition between hinduism and islam for influence. For example in pre-partition sub continent Muslims were largely land owning aristocrats while Hindus were traders and businessman. Muslims held tremendous influence over local tribes and clans who often distrusted hindus and remained jealous of their progress. Therefore instead of working and progressing a culture of fear, jealousy and distrust evolved which continues to this day and now it is causing many problems as we are unable to build an economy and a vibrant society and still our nation survives as long as india remains an enemy :D.[/QUOTE]

Hindus have great tendency to evolve according to the ruling power of the world. They coped and copied the Muslim culture well as they are doing with the Western culture now. Where there is a draw back in this region that it is never going to create any world order, there is an advantage that in imitation and submissive behaviour, south asians are the best. From Aryans to the present, these regions have always accepted the foreign powers to rule them socially, culturally and politically... Aryans sabotaged their "Ahimsa" civilizations replacing with their casts systems. The only reasons of Aryans victory was that these people were never ready to defend themselves, as they had weapons and tools made of silver and other soft weaponry.Aryans were technologically advanced with chariots but came there and after getting used to the environment living for a millennium, developed submissive behaviours as well, with lack of innovations.
Then Muslims came and found the same situations here. Muslims dwelling this area soon got mixed in the culture when Babar invaded as he writes in his "Tuzk" "I found their people lazy,stupid,ugly,fruits tasteless, a useless country"...But on entering this country he soon became a victim of it, and within few hundred years, British overthrown the Mughal empire making them fool coming with the purpose of trade...People soon fell into submission with Britain...
British too, lost their sanity on coming here. Britain lost it's position of world power in the hands of USA,Russia and Germany :happy:
The new form of ideologies developed after that which were too after ruling sub-continent were levelled by masses. Annihilating every piece of civilization after becoming slaves to them, these regions return to their basics of No-ism...:happy:
Islamic ideology faded very soon, then capitalism got decimated by Bhutto..Communism failed as well...After that only Anti-Bhutto, the Anti-Democracy powers prevailed...They have faded as well...Now a new man is coming with Anti-PPPP, Anti-N league ideology just...He will have too a small visit...
Now a days getting influenced with external civilizations, they will adopt them apparently and soon these civilizations will fade as well...
Babar's Tuzk seems right sometime, though offensive as well...

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;779815]Hindus have great tendency to evolve according to the ruling power of the world. [/QUOTE]

Its a trait that Muslims of sub continent despise so much, but it seems Muslims proved too arrogant for denying natural realities. God has not made the world in such a way that only people living in some part of the world, having certain racial features and following a particular creed are destined to rule the planet forever, so I think there is nothing wrong with adopting whatever is good and beneficial practiced by other people. Indeed this arrogant way of thinking is a huge problem, us Pakistanis hold beliefs similar to jewish belief that we are God's chosen people who will lead large armies and conquer india hahaha :D. Maybe we will, it looks like our fate will be decided in the middle east :D. Historically we have done nothing but siding with the hordes storming into India from central asia :D. And even with the British Raj, where hindus were learning and adopting features of the British we were just providing them with soldiers to help control India :D. As a result today's India is much more economically vibrant than us possessing a huge market which attract global attention whereas we are still waiting for international powers to help us conquer Kashmir :unsure:.

P.S. these are just personal thoughts, criticism is welcomed to improve learning, attacks will be repulsed haha :D. Maybe this culture evolved here as a resistance to excessive hindu greed :D. Hindu culture is very greedy indeed regarding money and goods, whereas we are greedy for power :D.

And yeah I don't mean any personal offense bro, it's just an analysis of the conservative discourse of Pakistan :D. The aim was to highlight some negative aspects in the conservative thought :D.

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;779946]Its a trait that Muslims of sub continent despise so much, but it seems Muslims proved too arrogant for denying natural realities. God has not made the world in such a way that only people living in some part of the world, having certain racial features and following a particular creed are destined to rule the planet forever, so I think there is nothing wrong with adopting whatever is good and beneficial practiced by other people. Indeed this arrogant way of thinking is a huge problem, us Pakistanis hold beliefs similar to jewish belief that we are God's chosen people who will lead large armies and conquer india hahaha :D. Maybe we will, it looks like our fate will be decided in the middle east :D. Historically we have done nothing but siding with the hordes storming into India from central asia :D. And even with the British Raj, where hindus were learning and adopting features of the British we were just providing them with soldiers to help control India :D. As a result today's India is much more economically vibrant than us possessing a huge market which attract global attention whereas we are still waiting for international powers to help us conquer Kashmir :unsure:.

P.S. these are just personal thoughts, criticism is welcomed to improve learning, attacks will be repulsed haha :D. Maybe this culture evolved here as a resistance to excessive hindu greed :D. Hindu culture is very greedy indeed regarding money and goods, whereas we are greedy for power :D.[/QUOTE]

I don't see any offence here...You said what I wanted to say...I actually presented things in some irregular manner. Firstly I said Hindus have great tendency to evolve at meant "relatively" then Muslims...Then I took "South-Asian" creed as a whole...
Adopting a culture is not a problem. But what happens here in S.Asia...We adopt A,B,C of a culture and they go ahead to D,E,F,G but we remain on A,B,C and sometime merely the outlooks of culture...e.g If our people are wearing "Jeans" then it doesn't means we have "evolved" until or unless we know few things 1.How they had developed jeans 2.Why they had? And the most importantly 3. How can we improve?
They evolve and bring something more handy then jeans and we remain in the dilemma that we have evolved too by just wearing it...
Seems a stupid example but will serve the purpose...

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;780011] But what happens here in S.Asia...We adopt A,B,C of a culture and they go ahead to D,E,F,G but we remain on A,B,C and sometime merely the outlooks of culture...e.g If our people are wearing "Jeans" then it doesn't means we have "evolved" until or unless we know few things 1.How they had developed jeans 2.Why they had? And the most importantly 3. How can we improve?
[/QUOTE]

to that I agree, we tend to copy only the visible aspects of culture and not ponder upon how a civilization is working. It's a bit natural btw, people are often hesitant, sometimes very resistant to loosing their original identities and roots.

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;780025]Sometimes very resistant to loosing their original identities and roots.[/QUOTE]

And it's also because in our circle of influence,outlook suffices.
And our circle of influence is restricted because we seldom dare to compete at national level, and increasing our circle...

We never think of getting out of "individualism" to "collectivism"...For example We are still practising the "Lose-Win" thing rather then "Win-Win" at individual levels, which is quite detrimental for success at national level.
They have developed a system in which two things are happening

1. A true spirit of "competition".
2. Individual efforts are automatically channelised at national level, with minimum harm to other country asset or individuals.

That's they have people influencing the whole world rather then people influencing just their own circles.
Here there is Bill Gates vs Steve Jobs in every home of Pakistan. They are competing at global levels. And we are competing at our town level or merely family level.
The approach of a student e.g studying for competition at school level will be different then a student aspiring to compete at global scale. Later one will never go for routing the syllabus or even will remain confined to one book.
An employee working in firm will only strive to please his boss by hook or crook. Despite of making a difference, he will stick to few conservative rules to get applause from his colleagues...

We have to think quite much and quite bigger. :D

Relating the debate to topic "Blasphemy" if all those individuals killing the couple had thought that what harm they are bringing to name of "Islam" and "Pakistan" at "National" level, they were never going to do all this...:D

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;780085]
Relating the debate to topic "Blasphemy" if all those individuals killing the couple had thought that what harm they are bringing to name of "Islam" and "Pakistan" at "National" level, they were never going to do all this...:D[/QUOTE]

I don't think they even cared about Islam or Pakistan, if Islam meant anything to them they would have inquired before committing murder :D. They just thought it best to seek revenge and use the name of Islam as a cover.

I would second the opinion of revising the law. Irony is people are afraid of talking about this issue, in fear of being called "offender" towards Islamic Ideology. on a serious note our Council of Islamic Ideology is very much concerned about "Marriage" issues and trying to advocate polygamy for almost a decade.
Islam is peaceful religion, the only thing not tolerated under Islam is "zero/no-tolerance" towards anything.
Even under the Sharia law there are 4 options to deal with blasphemy case, one being exile from the place, cut off hand or foot and last (if blasphemy is carried out intentionally and proved to harbinger hater and fomenting resentment) sentence to death.
It is even a form of extremism that we do not tolerate any other religion and the most dangerous form is "taking law in your hands".
Our current blasphemy law states that burden of proof lie on accused, and the one who put allegations is free of any duty like proving his claim, under this situation many people can take advantage of such liberty and can cause great harm to the people out of their personal grudges.

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;779612]Kindly enlighten us in following questions?

Q no1. Did all blasphemers were rewarded with the same punishment? [/quote]

There was general amnesty... however, four or six or eight (there is difference), to be killed where ever they were found... including one blasphemer named qareeba...however there is difference about this too as per Allama Shibli Nomani and Allama Sayyed Suleman Nadvi...

[quote]Q no. 2 Which ratio exists the most? Ratio of forgiven people or the punished ones?
Say the total number of those punished were 8 including Ka'b.[/quote]

Obviously, it seems number of forgiven people is overwhelmingly large than those punished at the time of Fath e Makkah.
[And ALLAH SWT knows best]

[quote]Q no. 3.Al-Raheeq-AL Makhtoom can be the unanimous source of Islamic Law?[/quote]

Who said that Al Raheequl Makhtoom is a source of Islamic Law,let alone the
sole or unanimous source of law...?

Ptrimary Source of Islamic Law are Quran al Kareem and Sunnah of Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W. and Al Raheequl Makhtoom is a book of Seerah... and I mentioned it for reference. So that in case of any ambiguity one can check the matter where it was discussed.

[quote]Q no. 4. When certain specific rulings are not present, Ijma or Qiyas can be practised or not? (For repealing the law)[/quote]

Ijma' and Qiyas are secondary sources and can be applied only when we don't find some ruling in primary rulings.... and that too with certain conditions...



Following questions are not relevant to the matter, and must be asked from some respected Aalim e Deen.

[quote]Q no.5.According to Shariah, a person leaving Salah (without any sharai reason) should be punished...
According to one sect, he has became a "Apostate"? Will you present yourself today to the court for punishment? Or will drag your friend or family member to the court?
If not why? [/quote]

[quote]Q no. 6. Do you think you are living in an Islamic state? where you can practice the Islamic Law against any one, not willing to be judged under this law, or is a Non-Muslim?[/quote]

Law is not implemented on the wishes of people, rather it is implemented on all subjects of the Islamic state... whether someone likes it or not... and by the way same is the case with almost all countries...


[quote]Q no 7.Had you (or we in majority) voted for Islam (or any political party with Islamic Ideology) in 2013 elections? Or will you in upcoming elections?

Q no.8 Jab hum behesyat Musalman apni individual, social, political life men khud apne ooper Islam naafiz karne men nakaam hen, to kiya jin logon par Islam ka naffaz hota hi nahin, un par naffaz krna drust he? [/quote]

well our or certain class of Muslims's failure does not mean that we stop implementing Islam, rather Islam must be implemented and you will see that Muslims who are negligent will also become responsible... or at least majority of them. In Sha ALLAH

[quote]
I know unanimously the law exists among all sects, blasphemers should be Punished to death...
It's Muharram, and there will be "Organized Blasphemy" (Tabarrah) in the whole World by Crores of Muslims, pass your judgement then in this case please. Kill them all? So, if I blast myself in them, I'm supposed to go to Jannah according to Shariah?[/quote]

Well I dont what you mean by organised blasphemy, but for any specific answer please refer to any authentic Aalim e Deen.

[quote]Ok. For a while accept everything...

One thing to be noteworthy here. As far as my knowledge of Islam concerns,Blasphemy, in it's organized form demands punishment.

All the Blasphemers who were punished were insisting the act. It's not like someone does once or twice. They were involved in this act consistently.Those who did it, once or twice were not killed otherwise there would be streams of blood in Makkah...
[B]
Second...Did any one burnt Quran and sentenced to death?[/B]

What about those thousands of Muslims who brought Quran on their dirty spears and swords in battle against Hazrat Ali R.A?
Or those Muslims who keep Quran as pillows under their heads? As it is observed in Arabia...

Qno 8. Repeat again.[/QUOTE]


This is your personal thoughts, and about incidents of era of Hazrat Ali R.A., we will not be asked about that... we need to act as per commandmentsof Shariah and implement Islam. and then we will be successful... as there is a meaning of Ayat...
You will be dominant if you are a believer.. (or as stated in the verse)


this is a little effort for understanding.. and not for point scoring...May ALLAH SWT bless us all to the right path and make us true believers. Aameen

[AND ALLAH SWT KNOWS BEST]

[QUOTE=MAA_LLM;781422]There was general amnesty... [/QUOTE]

So,we should declare general amnesty as well.

[/QUOTE][B]Obviously, it seems number of forgiven people is overwhelmingly large.[/B][/QUOTE]

So, we are supposed to adopt the most-practised version of Islam.
It's nearer to Sunnah as well then.

[/QUOTE][B]Who said that Al Raheequl Makhtoom is a source of Islamic Law,let alone the
sole or unanimous source of law...?[/B][/QUOTE]

Primary sources of laws are Quran and Sunnah (most-authentic books) and they are not clear in this regard. (I am not Questioning the authenticity of Al-Raheequl Makhtoom, but we can't rely on it while adopting a law).


[/QUOTE][B]Ijma' and Qiyas are secondary sources and can be applied only when we don't find some ruling in primary rulings.... and that too with certain conditions...[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, and as I've mentioned above Quran and Sunnah are not so loud in this case so we can adopt the options of Ijma and Qiyas in this matter and as you said there was general amnesty, we can extrapolate the thought.


[/QUOTE][B]Law is not implemented on the wishes of people, rather it is implemented on all subjects of the Islamic state... whether someone likes it or not... and by the way same is the case with almost all countries...[/B]
[/QUOTE]

You can apply Islamic Law to Islamic state just.

[/QUOTE][B]well our or certain class of Muslims's failure does not mean that we stop implementing Islam, rather Islam must be implemented and you will see that Muslims who are negligent will also become responsible... or at least majority of them. In Sha ALLAH[/B][/QUOTE]

Not a certain class...A Major population of Pakistan comprises non-practising Muslims.



[/QUOTE][B]Well I dont what you mean by organised blasphemy, but for any specific answer please refer to any authentic Aalim e Deen.[[/B]/QUOTE]

These all things are related but we have to put a little thought on it.


[/QUOTE][B]This is your personal thoughts, and about incidents of era of Hazrat Ali R.A., we will not be asked about that... we need to act as per commandments of Shariah and implement Islam. and then we will be successful... as there is a meaning of Ayat...
You will be dominant if you are a believer.. (or as stated in the verse)[/B][/QUOTE]

Who was supposed to act and love more according to Shariah? If Ali R.A did not punished the blasphemers (related to mis-treatment of Quran) then we, too, are not supposed to act, intolerantly in this regard.

[/QUOTE][B]this is a little effort for understanding.. and not for point scoring...May ALLAH SWT bless us all to the right path and make us true believers. Aameen[/B][/QUOTE]
Nobody is point scoring here, every body speaks about his own "known" facts (knowledge we say it) and to judge where he stands in this regard (It's what I do at least)...
Allah knows everything, but few things we are supposed to know as as well..:)

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;779946]Its a trait that Muslims of sub continent despise so much, but it seems Muslims proved too arrogant for denying natural realities. God has not made the world in such a way that only people living in some part of the world, having certain racial features and following a particular creed are destined to rule the planet forever, so I think there is nothing wrong with adopting whatever is good and beneficial practiced by other people. Indeed this arrogant way of thinking is a huge problem, [B][SIZE="5"]us Pakistanis hold beliefs similar to jewish belief that we are God's chosen people who will lead large armies and conquer india hahaha :D. Maybe we will,[/b] [/quote]

Its strange thesis of yours.... just to clarify we Muslims and Pakistanis are do not hold false belief that we will conquer India ...
rather there is a Hadith of Holy Prohphet S.A.W.W. about Gazwa e Hind... you can easily find its reference. and as hazrat Muhammad S.A.W.W. the last Prophet of ALLAH SWT and the most truthful human, so there must not be any 'may be' rather its must that Muslims will take part in Gahzwae Hind...

in addition to this, if Muslims follow the Deen, they will rule as Allah SWT's said in the Holy Quran al Kareem that (the meaning of which is)

you will be the dominant if you are a believer...
(or as said by ALLAH SWT in the Holy Quran)

so, no doubt Muslims will dominate, but they have to become believers first...
[And ALLAH SWT knows best]


[quote]Historically we have done nothing but siding with the hordes storming into India from central asia :D. [B]And even with the British Raj, where hindus were learning and adopting features of the British we were just providing them with soldiers to help control India :D. As a result today's India is much more economically vibrant[/B][/SIZE][/B] than us possessing a huge market which attract global attention whereas we are still waiting for international powers to help us conquer Kashmir :unsure:.
........[/QUOTE]


Well its not that we only 'sided with the hordes' rather we were overthrown by the enemy and we fought and retaliated.... further, Muslims have to defend the Deen as well as them selves,while Hindus didn't have any deen rather they were basically following some practices of their forefathers which were also not attacked by britishers... hence, comparison of Hindus and Muslims is not appropriate....
Secondly, its really strange that you relate India's present day economic progress to their so called learning in british rule.... if its so, India would have achieved the title of economic power few years after 1947... but its not so.... because... its only after 1990s that India has changed its economic fundamentals and started to recover from its poor economic condition.... Hindus did very cunningly won the support of britishers and got certain benefits at the time of independence from their masters... but its not true that they were so 'learned' that their present day economic progress can be termed as their british era learning...

We unfortunately, are so overwhelmed by others' temporary progress, that we tend to lack faith and confidence in our own self specially being Muslims...

We will rule,In Sha ALLAH but first we have to become believers.... nothing can conquer us if we behold our DEEN firmly...... present day difficulties are due to our negligence, carelessness, and due to leaving the right path...

May ALLAH SWT forgive us all and keep us all among His beloved ones and true believers. Ameen

[And Allah SWT Knows best]

[QUOTE=MAA_LLM;781422][SIZE="3"]There was general amnesty... however, four or six or eight (there is difference), to be killed where ever they were found... including one blasphemer named qareeba...however there is difference about this too as per Allama Shibli Nomani and Allama Sayyed Suleman Nadvi...
...
[AND ALLAH SWT KNOWS BEST][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[size=4]My upper statement was with regard to punishments at the time of fath e Makkah...

at the time of Fath e Mkkah there was announced general amnesty.... but some narrate that a women was among those who were killed. her name was qareeba and her crime was that she committed blasphemy....
however, Sayyed Suleman Nadvi and Allama Shibli Nomani discussed it held difference of opinion.

And ALLAH SWT KNOWS BEST[/size]

[QUOTE=RAO RAMEEZ;781445][quote]So,we should declare general amnesty as well.

[B]Obviously, it seems number of forgiven people is overwhelmingly large.[/B][/QUOTE]

[quote]So, we are supposed to adopt the most-practised version of Islam.
It's nearer to Sunnah as well then. [/quote]

[quote]and as you said there was general amnesty, we can extrapolate the thought.[/quote]


[B][COLOR="Blue"]Well, I never intended that there was general amnesty for blasphemers at all times or as a rule... rather I mentioned the situation at the time of Fathe Makkah.... that Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W.granted general amnesty at the time Fateh Makkah (conquest of Makkah)
I am extremely sorry if i failed to convey my meaning properly and I seek ALLAH SWT's forgiveness too...[/COLOR]
[/B]



[QUOTE]Law is not implemented on the wishes of people, rather it is implemented on all subjects of the Islamic state... whether someone likes it or not... and by the way same is the case with almost all countries...
[/QUOTE]

[quote]You can apply Islamic Law to Islamic state just.[/quote]

[COLOR="blue"]Shariah will govern and prevail over all the subjects of Islamic State... and if at certain instances, certain relaxations are given in Shariah to non Muslims.. this does not mean that at those instances Shariah get relaxed... rather those relaxations will also derive their sanctity from Shariah... thus those relaxations will be provided to non Muslims because of Shariah.[/COLOR]


[QUOTE]well our or certain class of Muslims's failure does not mean that we stop implementing Islam, rather Islam must be implemented and you will see that Muslims who are negligent will also become responsible... or at least majority of them. In Sha ALLAH[/QUOTE]

[quote]Not a certain class...A Major population of Pakistan comprises non-practising Muslims.[/quote]

[COLOR="blue"]Although there was a survey,a year or two back, in which overwhelming Muslims of Pakistan aspired that Shariah be implemented around 80% plus, however, even if your claim is true, this can not be a justification for not implementing Shariah...

[And ALLAH SWT knows best][/COLOR]

The punishment of blasphemy is the severest.


"Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab and perish he" Chapter 111 V. 1


Abu Lahab (Father of Flame) was the nickname of ‘Abd Al-’Uzza, the Holy Prophet’s uncle and his inveterate enemy and persecutor. He was so called either because his complexion and hair were ruddy or also because he had a fiery temper. The Surah recalls an incident during the early preaching of the Holy Prophet (abundant peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). On being commanded by Allah (abundant peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to call together his relatives and to deliver to them the Divine Message, the Holy Prophet, one day, stood on mount Safa and called the different Meccan (Makkah’s) tribes by name, the tribes of Luwayy, Murrah, Kilab and Qusayy and his near relatives, and told them that he is God’s Messenger, and that if they did not accept his Message and did not give up their evil ways, Divine punishment would overtake them. The Holy Prophet had hardly his speech, when Abu Lahab stood up and said, ‘Ruin seize thee, is it for this that thou hast called us together’ (Bukhari).

The above event certifies that the punishment of blasphemy indeed is severe and Allah Himself ordains it.

And these two authentic holy ahadith must end all the debate, whatsoever, to confuse the issue, in my view, this must:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 582:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

On the day of the Conquest, the Prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, “Ibn e Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Ka’ba.” The Prophet said, “Kill him.”

Sahih Bukahri Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369

Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). “The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.”

(Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the ‘Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you. “Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as ‘Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. “have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”

[QUOTE=MAA_LLM;781507]
rather there is a Hadith of Holy Prohphet S.A.W.W. about Gazwa e Hind... you can easily find its reference. [/QUOTE]

I hate it so much when 'the only true Muslims' as they perceive themselves lie so blatantly man. A ghazwa was a war in which Holy Prophet (SAW) participated himself. It's clear Muslims didn't conquer any region south of indus river during Holy Prophet (SAW) lifetime. It suggests that these beliefs are similar to Christian beliefs, second coming of Holy Prophet (SAW). Why isn't that a blasphemy.

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;781519]I hate it so much when 'the only true Muslims' as they perceive themselves lie so blatantly man. A ghazwa was a war in which Holy Prophet (SAW) participated himself. It's clear Muslims didn't conquer any region south of indus river during Holy Prophet (SAW) lifetime. It suggests that these beliefs are similar to Christian beliefs, second coming of Holy Prophet (SAW). Why isn't that a blasphemy.[/QUOTE]

I seek Allah SWT's forgiveness and protection from any lie and specially from conveying false Hadith....Ma'az Allah... it was never intended.....

Actually I didn't mentioned the reference due to laziness and partly because it was a famous topic, but,now i realize that I should have....


Anyhow, please read the following




[B]1. [/B]Hazrat Abu Hurairah (R.A.) says that my intimate friend Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) told me that:

“ In this Ummah, the troops would be headed towards Sindh & Hind”

[or as and what stated by prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W.]

Hazrat Abu Hurairah (R.A.) says that if I could find a chance to participate in any of such movement & (while participating in it) I be got martyred, then well & good; if came back as a survived warrior, then I would be a free Abu Hurairah, to whom Allah Almighty would have given freedom from the Hell.”


With these words, only Imam bin Hambal (R) narrated this Hadees in ‘Masnad’.






[B]2. [/B]HADEES OF HADHRAT SUBAN (R.A.) the freed servant of Hadhrat Muhammad (Sall-Allaho-’Alayhe-Wasallam) :

It is being related to Hadhrat Suban (R.A.) that Hadhrat Muhammad (Sall-Allaho-’Alayhe-Wasallam) told that:

“Two groups amongst My Ummah would be such, to whom Allah has freed from fire; One group would attack India & the Second would be that who would accompany Isa Ibn-e-Maryam (A.S.).”

[or as and what stated by Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W]

The following Hadees quoters has quoted this Hadees as it is:

Imam Ahmad (R) in ‘Masnad’.

Imam Nisai (R) in ‘As Sunan Al Mujtaba’.

Sheikh Nasir-ud-Din Albani (R) approved this Hadees.

Same as in ‘As Sunan Al Kubra’.

Ibn-e-Abi Asim (R) in ‘Kitab Al Jihad’.

Ibn-e-Adi in ‘Al Kamil Fee Zaufa Ar Rijal’.

Tibrani (R) in ‘Al Mojam Al Aust’.




And there are others too on the topic of hind....however,I am not a Muhaddis, therefore not sure about the degree of these Ahadiths or sayings. however, these are just to prove that I didn't intend to tell lie... rather... topic is present in book of Ahadith... however, if one wants to know, he must consult an Aalim e Deen to know about level or grade of their authenticity.

May ALLAH SWT Protect us all from telling and spreading lies and make us true believers. Aameen

[and ALLAH SWT knows best]

If anyone calls our parents the filthiest of names, swears at them, we are almost always willing to pull our swords out and behead the very next man, that comes naturally, but when it comes to the matter of blasphemy against the being who is held far more respectfully, lovingly than a Muslim's parents, the defense of his honor, a certain quarters must have to jump in and dirty the issue.

Allah, the Mightiest King, says:

(But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept with full submission.) (4:65) In the Sahih it says:

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, none of you truly believes until I am dearer to him than his own self, his wealth, his children and all the people.) It was also reported in the Sahih that `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said: "O Messenger of Allah, by Allah, you are dearer to me than everything except myself.'' He said:

(No, O `Umar, not until I am dearer to you than yourself.) `Umar said: "O Messenger of Allah, by Allah, now you are dearer to me than everything, even myself.'' He said,

(Now, O `Umar ﴿ you have got it right. Allah says in this Ayah

(The Prophet is closer to the believers than themselves,) Concerning this Ayah, Al-Bukhari narrated from Abu Hurayrah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophet said:


(There is no believer except I am the closest of all people to him in this world and in the Hereafter. Recite, if you wish: (The Prophet is closer to the believers than themselves.)


Selfless, endless, self-denying, incorruptible love and loyalty to the Holy Prophet (abundant peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the basic requirement of Islam, the need for a believer, thus his honor and worthiness is the inherent part of our Imaan, without the protection of which, we cannot practice Islam as are desired and willed by the mother of all laws in Pakistan, the Constitution, how there can even be a talk about altering the blasphemy law, leave alone, repealing it. Yes, for sure, the way the law is handled owing to the inefficiency of the state, not of the the individuals, can, at all times, be discussed; there is no objection to that.

The freedom of expression that the West and its puppets are seen championing and take cover in, doesn't come without limits. Blasphemy, defamation, incitement to hatred, discrimination against a person et cetera, are not permitted free play alongside the freedom of expression, even in the most reputed societies.

I quote the pertinent article from the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms as amended by Protocols No. 11 and No. 14,

Article 10 – Freedom of expression

2: The exercise of these freedoms [freedom of expression], since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

"For the protection of morals", "for the protection of the reputation of others", how, in such a transparent manner with nothing left ambiguous, addresses this article of International Law the whole matter, sums all of it up literally.

Keeping the aforementioned in consideration, the Pakistani state "regulated" the freedom of speech, as it ought to have, always, been:

19 Freedom of speech, etc.
Every citizen shall have the right to freedom of speech and expression, and there shall be freedom of the press, subject to any reasonable restrictions imposed by law "in the interest of the glory of Islam" or the integrity, security or defence of Pakistan or any part thereof, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court, 30[commission of] 30 or incitement to an offence.



Following laws/sections were made part of the Pakistan Penal Code (Act XLV of 1860), in line with the requirement of Article 19 of the Constitution:


295. Injuring or defiling place of worship, with Intent to insult the religion of any class:
Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class of persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of persons or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction damage or defilement as an insult to their religion. shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.

295-A. Deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting Its religion or religious beliefs:
Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the 'religious feelings of any class of the citizens of Pakistan, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations insults the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years, or with fine, or with both.

295-C. Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet:
Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.



The glory of Islam is uncompromisable, the constitution authorizes the state to defend the glory of Islam, the deen of the True Sovereign (as submissively accepted by the Constitution), yes, the King Allah! I am thankful to Him alone for having been born in this land of pure, the beautiful, faithful Pakistan.

[QUOTE=MAA_LLM;781533]
however, these are just to prove that I didn't intend to tell lie... rather... topic is present in book of Ahadith... however, if one wants to know, he must consult an Aalim e Deen to know about level or grade of their authenticity.
[/QUOTE]

I am not doubtful of your intention brother you didn't mean to lie, it's not your fault because these kinds of things have been propagated in this country for long time :). I would recommend before starting to believe in something try to do complete research in order to bring truth out first. You should be aware that in 7th century there was no such thing as India :), hind was name of abu sufyan wife :D and the Persians used to call area south of indus as hindu or something. Moreover it wasn't in Holy Prohphet S.A.W.W nature to make predictions like that, atleast as far as I can understand it maybe I am wrong but.... I consider these hadith as baseless and locally concocted for somebody's ambition of conquest and superiority. For me Islam is not just a tool for conquest and power :).

[QUOTE=mhmmdkashif;781569]Moreover it wasn't in Holy Prohphet S.A.W.W nature to make predictions like that, atleast as far as I can understand it maybe I am wrong but.... [/QUOTE]

I derive such conclusion on the basis that he S.A.A.W often avoided giving clear answers to questions posed about future by saying Allah knows best. And the fact that he S.A.W.W disliked fortune telling and warned Muslims about following them :)