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@zorromehr
The problem is with our policies which do not allow the people to come out of poverty.You must have heard about a time during caliphat when no one was available to accept zakawt.I think at time women were not as much active as they are now.The question was that did hijab cause problem to women advancement.The answer is yes.Now we must try to eradicate those hurdles instead of leting women to face this exploitation.Women are working in various fields wearing those hijabs.Women should go for them.

And now the demand is no-hijab.Suppose working women don't wear it.What would be their next demands?Don't you think that they are being exploited in advertisements as models?I am not against their participation.I am against this exploitation which is unjust and unfair.
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oh bahi aap logon ko lagta hai meri fazool english samagh nahi aa rahi to leme tell u in urdu..bahi jaan aur behnon baat yeh hai kai kehtay to aap hain kai "lets us change this and let us change that" ..baat sirf itni hai kai aap apnay aap ko samaghtay kia hain ....if u think ur revolutionary leme see how many people u get out in the streets till next week ? theek ....be realistic man ...jab tak aap kai hath mein koi pawa shawa na ho aisi change ki batain karna sirf kitabi hai ...B REALISTICCCCCCCCCCCCCCC PLZZZZZZZZ ...
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Old Wednesday, June 13, 2007
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Revolutionary honay ka yeh matlab nahin hai keh deedon ka pani maar diya jaye aur agar boss hamain kahay keh hijab utar do to hum hijab utha ker bahir phaink dain. Revolutionary hona yeh hai keh us boss to utha ker bahir phaink dain.

Aur agar realism ki baat ki hai to aisay tamam revolutionaries apni family ki khawateen to kahain keh bay hijaab zara bahir ka chakkar laga ker aain. Lekin phir kisi say bahir larnay mat ja'ain because so called revolution to isi tarah hi aaye ga.

Aisa revolution laanay kay baad "Doomsday Revolution" bhi mulahiza kerna that Allah would reserve for such revolutionaries. At least, jahannum main janay kay baad banda wahan koi revolution lanay ki nahin soch sakta, aisa revolution keh wo jahannum say bahir aa sakay.

Sorry for being blunt but you asked for realism. And thats what realism is all about.
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Last edited by Last Island; Wednesday, June 13, 2007 at 04:39 AM.
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quite emotional speech minus facts and figures ..yah but thats what we pakistanis have got used to ...emotionalism n symbolism n lacking in practical aspects of life ....kasoor aap ka nahi
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Yeah quite emotional speech. And when Allah will ask about it, probably u will answer "Allah mian, emotional batain na karain. Waqt ki zarorat tha yeh sub". And Allah will lead u to heaven happily.
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as i said ...typical self styled mullah rhetoric
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If this is mullahism then i would love to be a mullah and i m proud of it. At least i wont have any regrets on Doomsday.
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hmmmmm.....

1.) We all clamour for being practical but what in fact it is ? Dear we, being Pakistanis, have our specific norms and culture. Certainly consider hijab as part of our culture. But then what is the problem of hijab at Europe or America or in Africa. It means that the hijab is also part of their culture! It means that we share this aspect with them. This sharing is becuase of the fact that we follow teachings of the same religion i.e. Islam. It is undeniable fact that Islam is devine religion which means that ALLah pak HIMSELF prescribed its code and conduct, which were preached by AnHazrat (PBUH). The teachings of AnHAZRAT (PBUH) were not time specific it were for all times as ALLAH pak HIMSELF said in the HOLY QURAN....

Now just think for a while that who is the Creator of all things? Being followers of Book (not for we Muslims but also for Jews and Christians) the answer is certainly ALLAH pak..... If Creator has set up certain rules and ordered for their following thn who we are to say no or raise questions thereon?

2). Women and Men both are equally human beings, if some thing is started to go wrong or started to improve then it is not because of a single gender. Both genders are involved in destruction or construction of human aspects, though a gender may have greater share thn the other.... As per Holy Quran "Believers, men and women are mutual friends. They enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil," (12:71). ... As per Islamic teachings both genders are equal however, ALLAH pak gave a slight a very slight edge to males. ..The same thing applies in spouses, by GOD a good partner is blessing of ALLAH pak and a person can do great things with a nice spouse at his/her shoulders....If a wife is not doing any job, it doesnt mean that she is not contributing any thing for uplift of the family. rearing and looking after the childern, home and needs of her husband is the prime respnsiblity of the wife. Islam never stoped the wife to work. the prime example is of Hazrat Khadija r.a.

other examples could be:

----
Hazrat Busra bint Uzwan (ra) was the sister of a Sahabi Hazrat Utbah bin Uzwan al-Mazini, he also remained the governor of Basra (in Iraq). Hazrat
Busra hired Hazrat Abu Huraira (ra) and he was her employee during the time of AnHazrat (pbuh). Later she married him.

Hazrat Nafisa bint al-Hasan (d. 208/824) taught hadith to Hazrat Imam ash-Shafi'i (ra).

Women Farmers:

Hazrat Sahl ibn Sa'd, a Sahabi mentioned a woman who had her own farm. She used to cultivate beets and barley to feed the companions of the Prophet (PBUH) with it after Friday prayer.

The daughter of Hazrat Abu Bakr r.a. , Hazrat Asma' ra , mentioned that when she was married to Hazrat Zubair r.a. , they did not have wealth. The Prophet gave them some land about two miles away from their home. She used to farm and transport the produce herself. Hazrat Asma' bint Abu Bakr r.a. reported, "One day I was coming back with date stones on my head. Then I met the Prophet with some people from Madinah. He asked me to ride with him on his camel's back."

Women Traders:

Many sahaabiat-e karaam were engaged in trading. Hazrat Khadija r.a. is the most famous example. Other women such as Khaula, Lakhmia, Thaqafia, and Bint Makhramah traded perfumes.

A Sahabia Hazrat Quila said to the Holy Prophet (PBUH), "I am a woman who buys and sells things." Then she asked several questions about buying and selling. The wife of Hazrat Abdullah ibn Mas'ud met her expenses by manufacturing and selling handicrafts.

These able ladies may be compared to modern women who craft computer chips and other high technology equipment and appliances, or to women bioengineers who design artificial limbs, hearts and respirators.

Hazrat Saudah r.a. – Umul Momaneed was an expert in tanning skins. She sold her tanned goods to trading caravans and local men throughout Medina.

Women Surgeons:

Hazrat Rufaidah Aslamiyyah was an expert in medicine and surgery. She used to tend to the sick and wounded in the battlefields. According to Hazrat Ibn Sa'd, her tent was equipped with equipment for surgery and first aid. When Sa'd ibn Mu'adh was injured in the Ghazvae Khandaq, the Prophet (PBUH) transferred him to her tent for medical care.

Other women experts in medicine and surgery were Umm Muta', Umm Kabashah, Hamnah bint Jahsh, Mu'adhah, Laila, Umaimah, Umm Zaid, Umm 'Atiyyah, and Umm Sulaim.

Rubayyi' bint Mu'awwaidh ibn 'Afra was a great companion of the Prophet (PBUH). She tended to the wounded and sick and supplied water to the thirsty soldiers in many battles. With other women, she transported the wounded and the dead in the war.

If the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions were defending Islam today, those women warriors would be carrying machine guns, manning submarines, and manufacturing arms.

If the modern ambulance systems had been in existence, the women would have been giving cardio-pulmonary resuscitation and transporting the sick to the nearest hospital.

Those Muslim women would have been trained in nursing and medical schools to take care of wounded soldiers. These women companions of the Prophet (BPUH) would have been in the forefront of designing Star Wars technology to defend Muslims.

Women in Politics and Scholars:

For example, the Prophet (PBUH) consulted with Umm Salamah when he negotiated the treaty of Hudaibiah. Many companions were angry at the weak terms of the treaty. It was Umm Salamah whose counsel helped ease the situation.

Fatima binte Qais was a very able and intelligent scholar. When Hazrat 'Umar r.a. died, the nomination committee also consulted Qais on the selection of the next Caliph.

Hazrat 'Umar r.a. appointed Hazrat Shifa bint 'Abdullah ibn Shams as the administrator of the Market of Madinah which was one of the largest markets in those days.

According to 'Allama ibn 'Abd al-Barr, Hazrat Shifa bint 'Abdullah was a very intelligent and scholarly woman. Hazrat Umar r.a. often took the initiative of asking her opinion to other people.

Women not only gave their opinion on various problems but also criticized state matters and participated in the evaluation and reckoning of a ruler's actions.

It is commonly believed that freedom of speech originated recently in the West. This is no more than myth. Islam introduced equal rights and freedom of expression for women fourteen hundred years ago. The incident about mahr (dowry) in the Caliphate of 'Umar is well known. When he decided to fix the dowry money, an old woman protested that he had no right to decide about it.

Women Jurists:

There are many female jurists in early Islamic history. In jurisprudence, Hazrat Aisha r.a. had few equals and Hazrat Umm Salam also gave many legal rulings.

Others are Hazrat Safiyyah, Hazrat Hafsa, Hazrat Umm Habiba, Hazrat Juwayriyyah, Hazrat Maymuna, Hazrat Fatima Zahra, Hazrat Umm Sharik, Hazrat Umm 'Atya, Hazrat Asma' bint Abu Bakr, Hazrat Haila bint Qanif, Hazrat Khaula bint Tuwait, Hazrat Umm al-Darda, Hazrat Atika bint Zaid, Hazrat Sahalah bint Suhail, Hazrat Fatima bint Qais, Hazrat Zaynabah bint Abu Salamah, Hazrat Umm Ayman, and Hazrat Umm Yusuf (r.a)

A noted medieval Muslim scholar, Imam Badr al-Din Kashani, explained the rationale for appointing a women Qadi judge): "Where there is ability to give testimony, there is also the ability of qada (ruling)." According to al-Tabari, a woman can be an absolute judge in every matter.

It is reported that Dawud ibn Husayn, a companion of the Prophet, used to take Qur'anic lessons from Umm Sa'd Jamilah bint As'ad Ansariyyah, daughter of As'ad ibn Rabi who fought in the Battle of Badr and achieved martyrdom in the Battle of Uhud. According to ibn Athir, Umm Sa'd had memorized the Qur'an and used to give regular lessons.

Khansa bint 'Amr was a woman of great stature and a poetess of great fame. According to ibn Athir, all poets of fame unanimously agree that no poetess ever equaled Khansa, and the Prophet appreciated her verses.

Su'da, Safiyyah, 'Atikah, Muridiyyah, Qunila Abduriyyah, Umm Ayman, Umm Ziad, and Kabsah bint Rafi were also well known poetesses at the time of the Prophet .

'Amra bint 'Abdu'r-Rahman was one of most prominent women of second generation. She was one of those who gave legal opinions in Madina after the Companions. Her opinion overrode the views of other authorities. She is the first authority for three legal issues dealing with the prohibition against digging up graves, the ban on selling unripe fruit, and the effect of crop damage on the sale of agricultural produce. In one case, she reversed the decision of her nephew to cut off the hand of a man who stole some iron rings. Her authority was accepted on matters such as business transactions and punishments (hudud). Imam Malik takes her as a legal precedent for details on the hajj.

Women Warriors:

Many examples of women actively participating in war could be found at the time of the Prophet (PBUH). One companion, Hazrat Umm 'Umarah, demonstrated courage and fearlessness in the battle of Uhud.

Umm Hakim, wife of Hazrat Ikrimah ibn Aji Jahl participated in the war against the Romans.

When Muslims suffered defeat in the Battle of Uhud, there was some confusion in the Muslim camp. Then Hazrat Safiyah bint 'Abd al-Muttalib left Madinah armed with a spear and aroused a sense of shame among those who were returning from the battle. She angrily asked them, "Did you leave the Prophet (PBUH) behind?"

Hazrat Asma' bint Yazid fought and killed nine enemy soldiers in the battle of Uhud.

Hazrat Umm Salaim, mother of Anas, went to battle with a dagger .
(the text in green is excerpt from http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat...arly_islam.htm)

Apart from them Hazrat Khaula binte Azwar sister of Hazrat Zarrar bin Azwar (Pakistani Tank Al-Zarraar was named after him) fought bravely in the leading troops of Hazrat Khalid bin Waleed r.a. during his expeditions of Syria.

There are many legendary chronicles of fighting by Muslim Women including Saaahibaate Karaam at the three day pitched battle of Yarmouk.

3). In furtherance the definition of Hijab as per wikipedia is as under:

'''Hijab''' or ħijāb (باجح) is the Arabic term for "cover" (noun), based on the root بجح meaning "to veil, to cover (verb), to screen, to shelter"
In some Arabic-speaking countries and Western countries, the word hijab primarily refers to women's head and body covering, but in Islamic scholarship, hijab is given the wider meaning of modesty, privacy, and morality. The word used in the Qur'an for a headscarf or veil is khimār (ر ا م خ).
Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World by Macmillan Reference states about hijab:
The term hijab or veil is not used in the Qur'an to refer to an article of clothing for women or men, rather it refers to a spatial curtain that divides or provides privacy. The Qur'an instructs the male believers (Muslims) to talk to wives of Muhammad behind a hijab. This hijab was the responsibility of the men and not the wives of Muhammad. However, in later Muslim societies this instruction specific to the wives of Muhammad was generalized, leading to the segregation of the Muslim men and women. The modesty in Qur'an concerns both men's and women's gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia. The clothing for women involves khumūr over the necklines and jilbab (cloaks) in public so that they may be identified and not harmed. Guidelines for covering of the entire body except for the hands, the feet, and the face, are found in texts of fiqh and hadith that are developed later.
(The text in blue is taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab)

It is evident from above that hijab is a wider term, even more than wearing modest clothes or burkaahs or in other words very long clothes, and it is not only the responsibility of women folk to profess it alone…… and men are equally responsible for it…..

Moreover, please dont try to make it mix with Mullahism.... It is crystal clear from the pristine injuctions of ALLAH pak and AnHazrat (PBUH). It does not suit us- being muslim- to term it mullah rhetoric.
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Last edited by Muhammad T S Awan; Wednesday, June 13, 2007 at 09:46 AM.
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it is absurd that when we talk abt da society we often exclude ourselves 4m the society.if it is abt hijab then the viewpoint would be different if we include ourselves in this society and vice versa.so those who are against hijab must look in to thier own shelters first.
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The term hijab, includes not only the covering of body, but methods of behavior before members of the same or opposite sex, promoting privacy for females and prohibiting intermingling sexes, to ensure modesty, decency, chastity and above all, respect and worship of Allah.

Minor differences exist among the scholars regarding the actual number of the requirements because of varying methods used in codifying them. The ones mentioned here represent the ones agreed upon by the overwhelming majority of scholars and are all solidly backed by firm evidence taken from the Qur'an, the Sunnah and the practice of the Sahabah (the Companions).

The Extent of Covering
The dress worn in public must cover the entire body except what has been specifically excluded, based upon the following proofs: Allah says:

" And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts from sin and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their headcovers over their necks and bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to And that they should not I strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And 0 you Believers! Turn you all together towards Allah in repentence that you may be successful." (24:31)
The word zeenah in the Ayah above, literally means adornment and includes both the woman's natural or physical beauty, and that with which they adorn themselves, such as, jewelry, eye shadow, attractive clothing, hand dye, etc.

Surah An-Nur spells out specifically the commands concerning the fact that a woman's natural beauty and her adornments are to be concealed from strangers except by what may show due to accidental or uncontrollable factors such as the blowing of the wind, etc., and what has been exempted (see explanation at end of this section).

Allah says: "0 Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments above themselves ( when they go out). That is better so that they may be recognized and not molested. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (33:59)

Abu Dawood narrates that Aishah (raa) said:" Asma'a the daughter of Abu Bakr (raa) came to see the Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) wearing a thin dress; so Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) turned away from her and said: "0 Asma'a, once a woman reaches the age of puberty, no part of her body should be seen but this -and he pointed to his face and hands."

The word khumur (pI. of khimar) refers to a cloth which covers the head, ears, hair, neck and bosom. The esteemed mufaasir (Qur'anic interpreter) Al-Qurtubi explains: Women in the past used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends over their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar.

Allah states further in this Ayah: "... And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornments " The women in the time of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) wore anklets which could be employed to attract attention by stamping their feet, thereby, making the anklets tinkle. This practice is not only forbidden by Allah, but shows that the legs and ankles are to be covered as well. Some of the modern day Hanafi scholars are of the mistaken view that a woman can display her feet, a portion of her forearms and the! ears; yet there is no authentic proof from the practice of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) or his Sahabah to uphold such a view.

Amongst the authentic Ahadith which clarify this point is the following: Ibn Umar (raa) reported that the Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: “ On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will not look at the man who trails his garments along out of pride”. Umm Salamah then asked:” What should women do with (the hems of) their garments?” He replied: “Let them lower them a bandspan”. She replied: “ Their feet would be exposed!” He then said: “Let them lower them a forearm’s length but no more.” (Reported by At-Tabarani- Sahih)
The major point of difference among the scholars concerns the hadith of Asma'a (raa) i.e., that the face and hands need not be covered; a number of the scholars have maintained that the face hands must also be covered, because it was the practice of the of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) and the wives of the Sahabah to themselves completely according to authentic Ahadith. The above point has been a topic of debate amongst the scholars both past and present and will be dealt with, Inshallah at the end of essay.

Thickness
The garment should be thick and opaque so as not to display skin color and form of the body beneath it. Delicate or transparent clothing does not constitute a proper covering. The Sahabah were very stern on this and regarded scanty clothing in public as an indicator of a woman's lack of belief. AI-Qurtubi reports a narration from Ayesha (raa) that some women from Banu Tamim came to see her wearing transparent clothing, Ayesha said to them: “If you are believing women, these are not the clothes of believing women.” He also reports that a bride came to see wearing a sheer, transparent khimaar, whereupon Ayesha (raa) said: “ A woman who wears such clothing does not believe in Surah An-Nur.”
Moreover, the following hadith makes this point graphically Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: “There will be in the last of my Ummah (nation of believers), scantily dressed women, the hair on the top of their heads like a camels hump. Curse them, for verily they are cursed.” In another version he said:” … scantily dressed women, who go astray and others go astray; will not enter Paradise nor smell its fragrance, although it can be smelled from afar.” (At-Tabarani and Sahih Muslim)

Scantily dressed women : “are those who wear clothing which reveals more than it conceals, thereby, increasing her attractiveness while opening the path to a host of evils.”

Looseness
The clothing must hang loosely enough and not be tight-fitting show the shape and size of the woman's body, The reason for wearing a garment which is wide and loose fitting is that the on of Muslim women's clothing is to eliminate lure and beauty of her body from the eye of the beholder. Skin-tight body etc. may conceal the skin color, yet they display the size and of the limbs and body. The following hadith proves this clearly: Usamah ibn Zaid said: “ Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) gave me a gift of thick Coptic cloth he had received as a gift from Dahiah Al-Kalbi, and so I gave it to my wife. Thereafter, the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) asked thy didn't you wear the Coptic cloth? I replied: I gave it to my wife. Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) then said: Tell her to wear a thick gown under it ( the Coptic garment) for I fear that it may describe the size of her limbs. “ narrated by Ahmad, AI-Bayhaqi, and AI-Haakim)

Color- Appearance -Demeanor
Allah says: 0 wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women; if you fear ( Allah) , then do not be too pleasant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should feel desire (for you) ." (33:32)

The reason for the revelation of this verse is not the fear of distrust nor misbehavior on the part of the women, but rather to prevent them from speaking invitingly, walking seductively, or dressing revealingly so as to arouse sexual desire in the heart of lecherous and evil men.

Seductive dressing and enticing speech arc the characteristics of ill-intentioned women, not Muslims. AI-Qurtubi mentions that Mujahid (raa) said: "Women (before the advent of Islam) used to walk about (alluringly) among men." Qatadah (raa) said: "They used to walk in a sensuous and seductive manner." Maqatil (raa) said: "The women used to wear an untied cloth on their heads, while provocatively toying with their necklaces, earrings and other ornamental jewelry."

A garment which is intended to conceal a woman and her beauty from public view cannot be a thing which enhances her beauty. Therefore, the garment should not contain bright colors, bold designs or reflective material that draw men’s attention to the wearer. Imam Adh-Dhahabi says in his book Kitab AI-Kabalir (The Book of Major Sins): " Amongst the deeds which a woman is cursed for are displaying the adornments she wears, wearing perfume when she goes out, and wearing colorful clothes " Hence, the Muslim woman is encouraged to wear muted, somber colors and to avoid bright designs, patterns and colors.

Difference from Men's Clothing
The clothing of a Muslim woman must not resemble the clothing of men. The following hadith helps to explain this. Abu Hurayrah (raa) said: Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) cursed the man who wears women’s clothes and the woman who wears men’s clothes. (Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah-Saheeh)

Difference from the Clothing of Unbelievers
Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of unbelievers. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam. The following hadith will help to clarify this position:

Abdullah ibn Umar (raa) said: Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) stated: "Whoever resembles a people is one of them." (Abu Dawood)

No Vain or Ostentatious Dressing
The woman's dress must not be an expression of ostentation, vanity or as a status symbol by being excessively showy or expensive, nor must it be excessively tattered so as to gain admiration and fame for being humble. Ibn Umar (raa) reported that Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: Whoever dresses for ostentation in this world, Allah will dress that person in a dress of humiliation on the Day of Resurrection, and then set it on fire. (Abu Dawood)


(I m sorry to see that the topic of discuss was "Is hijab a hurdle" and we have deviated from the topic. Since i have seen few members against hijab, I considered it obligatory and my responsibiltiy towards Muslim society to clarify the concept of hijab through Quranic verses, ahadees and rivayats. Hijab is not really a hurdle, but it is just "Enlightened Moderation" that is deteriorating our society.)
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