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  #21  
Old Tuesday, August 15, 2006
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Default take a break

well

it seems a easy going way to LOVE

But take a break
L O V E
Let me explain

L--L
Let love fill your heart instead of hate. When hate is in your heart,
there's room for nothing else, but when love is in your heart, there's room for endless happiness.
O--o
Open your eyes and take in all the beauty around you. Even during the worst of times, there's still much to be thankful for.
V--ve
Value the friends and family members who've supported and encouraged you, and be there for them as well
E--e
Explore and experiment. The world has much to offer, and you have much to give. And every time you try something new, you'll learn more about
yourself.
what are u thinking about my analysis?
can u Differentiate human love


As

I'll remember you not as the one who broke my heart, but as the one who taught me how to love."
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  #22  
Old Tuesday, August 15, 2006
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Lightbulb L-O-V-E is beyond limit of words

@ m_suhail

Wasalam ... .... ....i am sure every body (including me) ll help u the way u want us help u out for css. u can ask whatever u want to know about css but janab at least ask relevant questions in relevant section. here we are discussing a hot thread, we ll really appreciate if u could add to our discussion. hop u must enjoy ur stay at css forum.

@ irum

wow...... i liked the abbreviation style but u asked in the end abt differentiating human love. I did not get the point u are asking in it. i think u wanted to say that can u differentiate human love from this abbreviation? if it is like this then i must say that love is beyond the limit of words, we can add good stuff as much as we can.

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  #23  
Old Tuesday, August 15, 2006
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AoA,
@impossible

Thanks dear for the complement (philosopher), but Khuram won’t be content on that. He’ll have a bunker buster logical attack on me. But don’t worry I’ll try my hard to win the battle.


@Hira :
thx dear for supporting my points.


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  #24  
Old Tuesday, August 15, 2006
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@khuram

Guru g, tussi te bunker buster attack kar ditta, koi dassay rabba mein karhay passay jawaan, mein manji kithay dhawaan?


Well, Mr. Ootpatang, I was missing the onboard presence of a fugitive enemy, but you have proven your self a good replacement of Mr. Deputy Commissioner. (Mr. Deputy Commissioner! If you are being informed directly or indirectly about my combat with Mr.Ootpapatng you can contact me to have a round table conference for the negotiable solution of the matter or you can also join his army. Since I’m still hoping your onboard landing)
Well Mr.Ootpatang, again I’m having a series of conflicts with you. Here it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khuram
I am not equating 'emotins' with 'be-hoshi'.
I’ve not mentioned ‘be hoshi’ any where. I mentioned ‘josh’ and I think you can better differentiate between ‘be-hosi’ and ‘josh’.


Quote:
If a boy loves a girl and the boy also has the option of marrying some other more rich and more beutiful girl ... then 'practical' approach would be to opt for that more rich and more beutiful girl. The emotional approach here would be to remain loyal to the beloved. If the boy really loves then he should prefer emotions to practical aspects and so should remain loyal to beloved.
Totally disagree to the practical approach, and emotional as well. In my opinion emotional approach will be to ‘try to have his beloved through any way available’. While practical approach will be to find those hidden ways and strategies by which he can have his beloved. As far as the element of ‘wealth’ you mentioned, is not considerable, as ‘impossible’ has already mentioned in her titled post that ‘money’ can’t know the value of ‘love’. In your mentioned case, if the guy leaves her beloved for the purpose of wealth, then it means he’s not loyal. Or in other words there’s no love, and where there’s no love there’s no debate on ‘hosh’ and ‘josh’. But I want the description of your statement where y you said that, while in love a person should prefer emotions (josh) on practical aspect (hosh), and by preferring ‘josh’ he should distinguish between negative and positive consequences. I’m of the opinion that if a person goes after ‘josh’ he cant find better way outs of the problem, so he / she should not follow ‘josh’, instead he / she should be very practical in finding all the possible ways to have his/ her love.

Quote:
I am not talking of such be-hoshi type emotions as one should tear up his clothes and go to deserts and jungles in order to prove the intensity of his love. One shall prove only one's madness in this way. And if his beloved is really going to be impressed by his lover in this way ... Then I can say nothing for this case. Both should be married in mental hospital --- of course without the consent of their respective families.
Well, I didn’t ask for any justification of ‘be-hosi’. As I mentioned earlier I wanted the role of ‘hosh’ and ‘josh’. And I’ve described my opinion above.
Quote:
But at the same time .... I do accept that such cases are really among the rare beuties of otherwise very miserable world. We should expect few percentage of such cases because otherwise social life would become just mechanical.

Quote:
In general, the emotions, about which I had talked were not any be-hoshi type emotions... those emotions were just 'selfless' type emotions which were directed towards 'loyelty' for beloved .... EVEN AT THE COST OF ANY MATERIAL BENEFITS.
Again you are trying to baffle me in word’s perplexity (w.r.t an old post). But I must say that you should exclude this ‘be-hoshi’ from your list, See we are talking about rationality. And rationality is possible only in the absence of ‘be-hoshi’. If you still disagree then edit your post on Iqbalian philosophy of love in the thread “Why didn’t scientific revolution happen in Islam? By Pervaiz Hoodbhoy”
Quote:
Intentions also can be changed over time.
Not intentions, preferences change over the time. If the ‘temporary intention’ changes then at least I don’t categorize such phenomenon as intention. Actually intention is a strong determination. And strong determination is not influenced by time. So if the determination is detoriating, that can’t be placed in the list of ‘intention’.

Quote:
I had shown in my previous post that in case a person finds it impossible to marry his beloved and so decides to remain unmarried for the rest of his life... in this case there is no real sacrifice. This is just a form of self punishment ... and in some cases can become emotional blackmailing. Some emotional unsuccessful lovers even go for the option of suicide. What is any sacrifice in suicide decision? It is just self punishment and emotional blackmailing. nothing else.
Ok the case of emotional blackmailing is considerable, but you said that remaining unmarried is not a valid sacrifice. But at the same time in one of your post you mentiond Valid sacrifice would be that when one rejects a better option in favour one's lover. So here your definition of valid sacrifice is becomes invalid. Se, a person has a better option to marry some one else and have a good life, but he’s denying such good option to remain loyal with his beloved.

Quote:
Sacrifice only means surrender of a better available options in favour of beloved... When one rejects extra material gains and remains loyel to one's beloved, only in this case one really sacrifices something. This is same situation as giving superiority to selfless emotions over materialistic practical advantages. Even this type of sacrifice would become invalid if lover makes show of such 'sacrifices' before beloved....
As I mentioned your definition of sacrifice as ambiguous above. But I think one should keep himself attached to some other constructive activity, rather than denying the options. I’d like to quote Amjad Islam Amjad jo mil gya ussay yaad rakh, jo nahi mila ussay bhool ja but I’m not fully agree with it as well. No doubt, person can’t forget his real love but he can keep himself attached to some constructive activities so that he can use his abilities for the benefits of others (if he don’t want to do himself he should do something for others)
Quote:
So real sacrifices may remain completely unknown to beloved...

Quote:

The sacrifice by the beloved would be that he/she should acknowledge those sacrifices which were never told to him/her ... I mean should understand at his/her own. Even if does not understand ... act in such manner as if he/she is acknowledging the (may be unknown) sacrifices of lover.

This would be the sacrifice by the beloved...
Again its ambiguous for me. please give a logical explaination.



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  #25  
Old Tuesday, August 15, 2006
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@ Qurratulain

Wsalam.......1st of all i would like to say thanks for the medal of appreciation. I am really honoured. I am feeling so glad to have this medal. You people appreciated me in a best way.

I liked the way u are discussing and elucidating this issue.

@ Khuram

I think Khuram just want to stretch the issue, its ok. Let him keep on doing so, otherwise this issue will die without resolving. Keep it up Khuram but dont tease Qurrat as she is calling u an Ootpatang. Never mind

Let us see how u convince us this time. Hope u will avoid ambiguous statements like our democratic leaders do. lolz

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  #26  
Old Wednesday, August 16, 2006
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Lightbulb where our mazhab teaches this kinda love?

guys and gals, you all sound way smart but at the same time have no clue what are you talking about! baba love is pure its not hanky panky. if you all into "larka larki ik dosray kay bhaighair zinda na rah sakian wala love" then is nothing but hilarious..i m not proving here anything but what i m saying is what i have been reading here ( i have notice here that ppl are well aware of realities and know-how of their mazhab and what it teaches us...then where this kinda love comes from??? can anyone of you prove that our mazhab teaches this kinda wrong doing...or vice versa? how one can differentiate wrong doing and right doing? why people hide this kinda love to others??? or for that matter if they marry someone else then why they hide or other people advise them not to disclose what you were doing before marriage(or involved w/ someone else cuz its not right its not permissble in our mazhab..this thing only leads to gunha....if you disagree w/ me then what is pardha? and why its compulsory? what is hiya? ) i m 101% sure none of you agree but then everyone has to answer her/his ammals.....
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  #27  
Old Wednesday, August 16, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartanalyst
guys and gals, you all sound way smart but at the same time have no clue what are you talking about!
Ms Analyst would you please justify your say here.

Quote:
baba love is pure its not hanky panky. if you all into "larka larki ik dosray kay bhaighair zinda na rah sakian wala love" then is nothing but hilarious..i m not proving here anything but what i m saying is what i have been reading here ( i have notice here that ppl are well aware of realities and know-how of their mazhab and what it teaches us...then where this kinda love comes from???
Well Ms. Analyst, i don't think there's any thing 'hilarious' in this discussion. It's a serious issue of the society, and is responsible for many of the negativities in the society. And people discussing the issue here are well aware as well. In my opinion the negative consequences of any social issue can only be resolved after having effective discussions. By discussion we come to explore the matter in many dimensions and find new ways out. If you think that 'larka-larki love' is hilarious, and shouldn't be discussed in such serious way, i totally disagree. Because this love has taken many diversities in different ages and still right now it exists in many forms among almost all the people of the world. 'love' is a pure feeling but its purity depends upon many factors discussed above. It results in many different ways as well (its also discussed above). So we are discussing the situations where it results negatively and how can we avoid those negativities. And i think this is not HILARIOUS at all.

Quote:
can anyone of you prove that our mazhab teaches this kinda wrong doing...or vice versa? how one can differentiate wrong doing and right doing?
Well the definition of 'right' and 'wrong' differs from person to person and situation to situation. But generally right is what is benificial for one but not harmful for others and vice versa. If something is benificial for one but harmful for others so this can't be categorized as 'right'.

Quote:
why people hide this kinda love to others??? or for that matter if they marry someone else then why they hide or other people advise them not to disclose what you were doing before marriage(or involved w/ someone else cuz its not right its not permissble in our mazhab..this thing only leads to gunha....if you disagree w/ me then what is pardha? and why its compulsory? what is hiya? ) i m 101% sure none of you agree but then everyone has to answer her/his ammals.....
As i stated above that what benificial for one but harmful for others is not 'right'. So when people hide such cases from others they simply mean to maintain a pleasent circumstances in the society (which is not harmful for others). Secondly you wan't the justification of 'love' in religion. I don't have much to say on it but " IT'S LOVE WHICH WAS THE REASON BEHIND THE CREATION OF THIS UNIVERSE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ALLAH SUBHAN_O_TALLA CREATED THIS UNIVERSE FOR THE SAKE OF HIS LOVE WITH HIS BELOVED CREATURE 'MAN' "


Hopefully i cleared your points.. If something is left 'impossible' and 'Khuram' are there to entertain you with the rest of the philosophy of love.



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  #28  
Old Wednesday, August 16, 2006
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Cool Riposte

@ smartanalyst

u are talking about useless things. I always appreciate Islam because it is a modern religion and allows positive changes. Only Islam is able to resolve this sort of issues. I have tried to elucidate with in limits of Islam the Gr8. I am sure about that.

i can elucidate it in a better way but i think this much explanation is enough because already Qurat tried to convince u in a proper way.

@ Qurat

Riposte...just lovely......u have responded the questions bombarded by smaranalyst in a superb way. i really liked it. there z nothing to add. may b Khuram would like to chi chat with smartanalyst becuse he always use to point out something where there is nothing to chit chat....kidding ...never mind

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  #29  
Old Wednesday, August 16, 2006
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@ Miss Muskan

"Aqal ko tanqeed sai fursat nhi
Eishq pai aamal kii buniaad rakh"


Your 'Tanqeed' on philosophy and politics is critically very critical....!!!


Actually love has inspirations for all positive looking people. You cannot say that 99% people never experience love. To find love in life is the desire of majority people. Everyone of them would want to find the pure love but with the passage of time or as a result of many influential aspects of practical life, sooner or later most of these people would ultimately find themselves among the class of 99% people. This is what they did not want but exactly this is what actually happens with them. Ultimately they have to change the priorities of their lives and so their love declines with time.

Even those people who never surrender before practical matters may or may not find their love. But in either case they save their original love from declining with the passage of time... They have more determination and association with their original priorities and commitments... So they prove themselves to be the true representatives of the world of emotions -- which is commonly not understandable to practical minded people...

These people may suffer losses also ... but they really promote the beuties of world.


@ Impossible..

Actually Ms. Qurat knows that I am part time King of all the Ootpatang people of the world. I had won election of kingship of Ootpatangs with heavy mandate. Shall you give me vote next time...??? But first you will have to prove that you are also ootpatang... ... Non-Ootpatangs are not entitled to vote..

Anyway, yes you are right .. People do sacrifice love for family... These people are among those who originally wanted to find pure love but at the end find themselves included in the class of 99% people... These are the realities and we must accept realities also.


@ Irum

Nice analysis...!


@ Smartanalyst

I think we, unlike common ppl, are not taking Jokes just for the sake of Jokes... We are trying to improve our understanding about a social and pyshological phenomenon...




@ Qurratulain

Quote:
I’ve not mentioned ‘be hoshi’ any where. I mentioned ‘josh’ and I think you can better differentiate between ‘be-hosi’ and ‘josh’.
Yes you had not mentioned 'be-hoshi' but you did mention 'hosh'...

Consider your following words:

"The differentiation of negative and positive emotions is possible only when a person is thinking practically (hosh)."


And the proper opposite of 'hosh' is 'be-hoshi' and NOT 'josh'

Hosh and Josh can exist together but 'hosh' and 'be-hoshi' cannot exist together...

So I was not wrong in discussing the implications of 'be-hoshi'. My real fault has been that I missed to discuss anything about 'Josh'...


Quote:
Totally disagree to the practical approach, and emotional as well. In my opinion emotional approach will be to ‘try to have his beloved through any way available’. While practical approach will be to find those hidden ways and strategies by which he can have his beloved. As far as the element of ‘wealth’ you mentioned, is not considerable, as ‘impossible’ has already mentioned in her titled post that ‘money’ can’t know the value of ‘love’. In your mentioned case, if the guy leaves her beloved for the purpose of wealth, then it means he’s not loyal. Or in other words there’s no love, and where there’s no love there’s no debate on ‘hosh’ and ‘josh’. But I want the description of your statement where y you said that, while in love a person should prefer emotions (josh) on practical aspect (hosh), and by preferring ‘josh’ he should distinguish between negative and positive consequences. I’m of the opinion that if a person goes after ‘josh’ he cant find better way outs of the problem, so he / she should not follow ‘josh’, instead he / she should be very practical in finding all the possible ways to have his/ her love.

First of all ... Just like Miss. Muskan, you are not considering 'declined' love as 'love' at all...

Whereas I have shown above that they also wanted to be loyal and commited to the original love... But circumstances of real practical world would change their priorities also.. You cannot consider these people as complete emotionless.


Your following statement is not clear:


"In my opinion emotional approach will be to ‘try to have his beloved through any way available’. While practical approach will be to find those hidden ways and strategies by which he can have his beloved."


I think that you are considering both 'emotional approach' and 'practical approach' as pro-love forces... which adopt different means with the view to achieve the common end i.e. love..

But you have not properly differentiated between those different 'means'...

Your 'emotional approach' as well as 'practical approach' are talking about single type of means ... i.e. "through any way available"....and... "hidden ways" .... And there is no essential difference between these two types of means... Because "through any way availble" can include "hidden ways" also...


My point of view is different from yours in that I consider 'emotional approach' as a pro-love approach ... whereas 'practical approach' as a sort of materialistic or selfish or non-loyelty type of approach ... and so as 'anti-love' approach..


Previously I had explained my point of view in terms of 'hosh' vs 'be-hoshi'. Since you have pointed it out, so now I am going to explain my point of view in terms of 'Hosh' vs 'Josh'


Remember that you had taken 'practicality' as 'hosh' and 'emotions' as 'josh' ... In this sense ... there is no conflict between 'practicality' and 'emotions'..

In this discussion, it was I who first had compared between 'practicality' and 'emotions'... And I had used these terms in conflicting sense...

Then in your reply ... you also should have used these two terms in conflicting sense ... but mistakenly you have taken these two terms as non-conflicting... I also have shown that you also could not bring any real difference between your non-conflicting 'practicality' and 'emotions' because your 'hosh' and 'josh' has no real or 'essentia' difference between them..


Now my point of view regarding 'Hosh' and 'josh':

Since you have applied these terms in non-conflicting sense... So I am also taking these terms in non-conflicting sense...


In my opinion, in the non-conflicting sense, a lover should not just be practical (in positive sense = hosh) but ... when it comes to love ... then one should be emotional (josh) also...


I try to explain it with example:


Consider a lover who is just practical and not emotional.. He realizes that practically it is very difficult to achieve his love. Since he is practical minded, so he would decide to not go after love and in this way would save himself from many difficulties and troubles.. In this way, he would just opt an easy way for him.


Now consider another lover who is practical minded in his routine life but also becomes emotional as a result of finding himself in love. In this case, his 'emotional' attitude would be that now he would not care for any difficulties or hurdels which are in the way of achievement of love. Now he would do all the POSSIBLE efforts with the view to achieve love..

He would not opt just easy way for him... He shall become emotional (in positive sense) and shall try to remove or to overcome all the difficulties of his way.

If the achievement of love was within possibility, though how much difficult it was, then most probably this positive emotional lover would successfully achieve his love.

But if the achievement of love was quite out of possibility, then this emotional lover may not be successful.


Now consider still another lover who is just emotional but not practical... What he shall do..?? If he is less emotional, then he always shall listen to sad songs ... since he shall not do any practical effort.. If he is more emotional, he can become singer of sad songs ... or can become an unsuccessful lover poet..

If he is still more emotional and still less practical, then he would tear up his clothes and would go to jungles and deserts...

Quote:
Well, I didn’t ask for any justification of ‘be-hosi’. As I mentioned earlier I wanted the role of ‘hosh’ and ‘josh’. And I’ve described my opinion above.
I also have described my point of view above..


Quote:
Again you are trying to baffle me in word’s perplexity (w.r.t an old post). But I must say that you should exclude this ‘be-hoshi’ from your list, See we are talking about rationality. And rationality is possible only in the absence of ‘be-hoshi’. If you still disagree then edit your post on Iqbalian philosophy of love in the thread “Why didn’t scientific revolution happen in Islam? By Pervaiz Hoodbhoy”
Well, I was not talking with reference to the terminology of that other thread.. Confusion has been created here just because I had used some terms in conflicting sense whereas you have talked about same terms in non-conflicting sense..

Now I have explained my point of view in non-conflicting sense also...



Quote:
Not intentions, preferences change over the time. If the ‘temporary intention’ changes then at least I don’t categorize such phenomenon as intention. Actually intention is a strong determination. And strong determination is not influenced by time. So if the determination is detoriating, that can’t be placed in the list of ‘intention’.
Everything... including intentions can change over time...

Simple meaning of 'intention' is what we want to do...

At first instance, this term gives the sense that what we now want to do, we always shall want to do the same...

But if you try to look somewhat deeply, the term 'intention' only suggests what NOW we want to do... More precisely ... in case of idea of 'evergreen' love .... We NOW want that love shall always be evergreen...

At a later stage, we can want to do something else. Intention of keeping the love evergreen is basically a commitment... Commitments need reinforcement... Commitments need continuous revivals ... Continuous re-commitments ... again and again re-commitments for the survival of the original commitment.

If any of these factors is missing... then any intention ... including the pure intention of keeping love evergreen... CAN BE CHANGED OVER TIME.


Quote:
Ok the case of emotional blackmailing is considerable, but you said that remaining unmarried is not a valid sacrifice. But at the same time in one of your post you mentiond Valid sacrifice would be that when one rejects a better option in favour one's lover. So here your definition of valid sacrifice is becomes invalid. Se, a person has a better option to marry some one else and have a good life, but he’s denying such good option to remain loyal with his beloved.
After lets say the marriage of beloved, lover would not be in a position to sacrifice anything in favour of beloved... Only sacrifice can be that he should let the beloved to forget him ... so that beloved should live a happy married life .... For this purpose, he himself also should try to forget the beloved... Agar wo beloved ke liye aahein bharta rahe ga... to may be he would be teasing the beloved ... may be he would be emotionally blackmailing the beloved...


Quote:
As I mentioned your definition of sacrifice as ambiguous above. But I think one should keep himself attached to some other constructive activity, rather than denying the options. I’d like to quote Amjad Islam Amjad jo mil gya ussay yaad rakh, jo nahi mila ussay bhool ja but I’m not fully agree with it as well. No doubt, person can’t forget his real love but he can keep himself attached to some constructive activities so that he can use his abilities for the benefits of others (if he don’t want to do himself he should do something for others)
Amjad Islam Amhad is absolutely right here... But "Jo nahi Mila" means that when all the chances have been finished... (Like all the three attempts of CSS) ... Aakhri chance se pehle lekin nahi bhoolna chahiye..

And I am not agreeing to your doctrine of "other constructive" activities...
This case would be similar to above mentioned singer of sad songs... or becoming poet of sad poetry etc...

I do agree with it ... but only for the case of 1% people... and not for any greater percentage...


Quote:
Again its ambiguous for me. please give a logical explaination.
The ambiguous thing for you had been my description of sacrifice by the beloved...

There was nothing ambiguous in that... Lover was doing some sacrifices which he never told to beloved ... because true sacrifices are only those which are never told to beloved...


What would be the 'sacrifice' by the beloved...????


Beloved should understande those sacrifices at her own... If she understands without having been expessively told, about the sacrifices of lover, and acknowledges those 'sacrifices'... this 'acknowledgement' would be her sacrifice for lover..

Even she does not understand ... just acts in a manner as if she is acknowledging the sacrifices (which may or may not be there in fact) .. of lover ... this type of acknowledgement by her would be another great sacrifice by the beloved...
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  #30  
Old Thursday, August 17, 2006
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Unhappy crude crashin !

AoA.

There is a story which I heard in my child hood, and I m sure that many of u have heard it. Btw, it goes like this:
Once there reported a quarrel b/w two men. The court called both up. The matter was that 1 person erected a peg beside a well and the other one plucked it out. This gave rise to a steamy conflict b/w the two, and ended up in a quarrel.
The qazi asked the first one : y u erected the peg ?
He replied: Just for the sake of a passer by, if he stops for a drink, then he can easily tie up his animal with it.
Then the qazi asked the other one: y did u pluck it out ?
He replied: I thought that if someone comes in the darkness of the night, then he could get hit by it and stumble and fall into that well.
The qazi said: Since I cannot find any of the two guilty, so liberate them both.

Moral : “Innamal aamaal O’ bin neyyaat-e”
Deeds are dependant over will
The reason of giving this example is crystal clear that no action is good or bad, it is the essence of the will which makes it so.
Since difference of opinion is the spice of life, i.e y some like blue, some red, some ….. something else.
So here is the crux :
It is easy to discuss off things like this in even much greater length and depth, but it is really hard to put one’s self in other’s shoes. Since we do not know authentically that what the person has got on his mind(I am talking about that friend of iMpOsIbLe who do not marry). May be he feels himself fixated at that point by heart and he feels that he wont be able to love someone else upto the level. So what’s the point in marrying a girl whom he cannot love? It is like spoiling her life too. Secondly it could be his family setting, it also could be an emotional blackmail, or…there could be so many reasons about it. Since I really do not know that guy and his problems, so I will not like to say a word in his favor or against. But certainly, there arises a question that “what sort of benefit that troubled person is getting out of our this philosophical discussion?”

Last but not the least, we do, almost all agree to the statement of impossible’s e-mail that “only time verifies true Love”. No points against. we unanimously agree upon it. But there is a little suggestion for u impossible, i.e. replace the character of knowledge by wisdom because what I personally think, in my own limited point of view is that knowledge is just something we know but wisdom is something by which we understand. Knowledge is just like a lens and wisdom is the vision. Take it as a knife, which can be used to cut off a throat or also can be used to carve a shape out, or to slice up some groceries for a “real nice MEAL”(hmmmm boy I m feelin hungry!).
I hope that u people don’t mind my crashin in, even if u do, I couldn’t care any less about it !!!

Take care u all, of not only urself…

Allah Hafiz !
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