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Originally Posted by suman
We did not get to see state like Madina because after Holy Prophet (PBUH) islam took a back seat and personal interests became first preference of muslims even of the many companions who endeared islam and unity of muslims more than anything else during lifetime of prophet (PBUH).unless the same spirit is not revived where collective well being is not the most important factor neither any ideal Islamic state nor any reformed concept of state according to needs of contemporary world will be possible.
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That was the point. We cannot have those people again. Period.
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I understand and have said time and again that we lack action in your words firm emaan.but why this is so? Because we know everything but don’t take any firm action.greater responsibility lies with those who know and if they failed to act they will be held responsible for this more than the people who know less.the responsibility of establishing an Islamic state is as important as performing daily obligatory rituals o islam.
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My point was same, we need to get practical. Tell you what, in Islam there are different kinds of act. Performing daily rituals is something that comes under belief (I am not talking about congregational prayers here) and if not observed, a person will get punishment by Allah but there is not worldy punishment. If I drink within confines of my home, state cannot interfere with that. If I drink and go outside and end up messing with someone, obviously I'll be liable to hadd. Similarly, if I dont offer salah at my home, dont observe fasts, state cannot do anything. These are the things for which I'll face the music one day.There are things that you call transactions (or muamlaat) which govern relationship of an individual with an individual and that of an individual with state. If I dont give zakat, state has all the right to penalize me since its comes under my transaction with state and not beliefe. State, on basis of law (whether divine or common) always governs transactions and not beliefs. Belief is a person's personal matter. When you have the hukm of Allah incorporated as your state law, obviously it will prevail and nothing else. So the state should legislate according to whatever Islamic means possible but legislating over beliefs is something that is not possible. Shiites offer prayer in a different way, Sunnis in a different way. State cannot tell you which way is correct.
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Yes I do agree.but when Allah will ask us what we did when muslim states were downgraded,when Islamic shariah was nowhere,when muslims were divided when individuals were corrupted when societies were shattered? We will just answer that as it was said that muslims will get united under Christ so we even didn’t try!or we will reply that as our times were changed so it was not even possible to try for the creation of an ideal Islamic state(and by this I don’t mean exactly same as was the state of Madina but a reformed ideal Islamic state it can be).to me these are just excuses to satisfy ourselves.
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Spot on. Read carefully my lengthy post again. When state is gonna govern transactions according to Allah's hukm, its nothing but His law that will prevail. The union concept I explained was for the same purpose so that broader issues like having common military, common foreign policy against non-Muslims etc can be solved. What makes you think that the above society will not be Islamic? A union working as per Allah's hukm is obviously Islamic. Plus, tell me a single unIslamic thing in the concept that I explained. Did you find any?
Since I believe that world has seen plenty of reformers over last couple of centuries but no individual can reform the whole world. Had that been the case, today there wont have been any non-Muslims. Reforming part has lot to do with beliefs and no mater what, one cannot make all Muslims have same beliefs. But when it comes to transactions, it can be quick. The moment you realize that you are not going to interfere with beliefs. A parctical example is Iran and KSA, the two poles of Muslim world. Even heard any person talking about difference of opinion over transaction? They just want that the other party should hold the same set of beliefs as they are having, which is not possible. I hope you get it now.
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And how that society will be possible if people are not reformed to be tolerant?if that is the case tu pehle state of madina wajood mein aati then logoan ne islam ko follow kerna shuru kiya hota.agar aisi baat hoti tu Allah pehle collective duties k bare mein hukm deta individual responsibilities k bare mein nahin.suppose if without reforming ourselves a reformed advanced state is established but people refuse to leave riba system or to be tolerant then what will happen? Will that system will be replaced with any other or people will be forced to refuse riba or practice tolerance and allowing free thinking!
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Again, it just requires that you educate people that for every person there is a red line. The moment you cross it (whether crossed by state or individual) you are done. People should be told (and even we can legislate over it) that no one can force others to agree with one's particular beliefs. Free thinking and tolerance need to go hand in hand. You cannot pick one and leave the other. I am sure you know Meccan chapters deal with beliefs and not transactions. Any person who believes in five fundamentals of Islam is a Muslim no matter whether he is a practicing one or not. So preachers can still play their part in those states but again, people need to be freethinkers and have rational approach.Your transactions will be governed by state law (which will be actually hukm of Allah) but when it comes to belief, that is where you need tolerance and freethinking. So declaring someone as outright heretic or kafir will not be an individual's job. Discussions should be promoted but you cannot be violent and tell a person that your dua will not be listened by Allah because there was no waseela or something etc. As far as riba is concerned, when state law says that you cannot take usury, how will a person not leave riba?
State can penalize the person as per the law. If he still does, he'll face the music. So what you are doing is that you are confusing beliefs and transactions. You had somewhere asked (which I forgot to reply) that what if a custom is in conflict with Islam, tu meri behen when you have a circle and you know that you have to legislate and work within that periphery, how will you cross it. The fifth legal maxim in fiqh is "Custom is the basis of law" but it simply means a custom that is not in conflict with Islam, its quite simple.
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Dear tell me where I have stressed upon unity of all muslims under one caliphate? Infact im not a great fan of caliphate system but is it only way to ideal Islamic state.? definately not.
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The first thing is that I never talked about Caliphate in a particular sense. I always talked about essentials of a Muslim state/ Caliphate/ Union or whatever you call it. Labelasare never important, essence is. Political system of Islam is a much debated topic. Can anyone deny the two core ideas underlying its political system?
There are debates about elections, about term etc but these things are not that important. One thing is for sure, nothing unnatural (like monarchy) can survive in Islam. Yes, I believe a union is an ideal way to an Islamic system. Only a union can be a vanguard of rights and interests of Muslims all over the world, (we all are a witness to persecution of Muslims today).
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If there are so many sects its not fault of Quran and Sunnah.people have stopped following Quran and Sunnah.you also said there are so many fabricated hadiths.aap mujhay batao k sects kab bane?tabhi na jab logoan ko koi hukm ya hadith apne mufaad k khilaaf lagi tu unhoan ne alag ho k apna alag sect bana liya oar hadiths bhi apne favour mein jaari ker dien.
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I beg to differ here. There were different classical school of thoughts. All classical scholars had a different methodology of deriving legal rulings. One followed Quran, Sunnah, Ijma, Qiyas, someone else also considered public ineterst or maslahah mursalah and hence reached a different legal ruling. Still there were others who did not follow Qiyas. I mean they all had different methodologies and reached at different legal rulings but none of them dared crossing the periphery of Shariah. Now all these scholars said that if you find any rule in conflict with Quran and Sunnah, throw it to wall. But what happened? Their disciples started trying to prove that their imam was more logical and had reached better legal rulings than rest of the scholars. So this propaganda thing actually gave birth to group of people who were stubborn at head. It has nothing to do with fabrication of hadiths. Because the classical scholars were way too careful in choosing hadith from which they could derive legal rulings. So, in reality, there is nothing bad in it. What we need to understand is that there is khair in difference and it does not make any difference if all people do not follow any particular scholar.
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We can get rid of them by reforming ourselves in such a way that then we will be more tolerant towards other sects,ethinicities and cultures as these problems have no place in islam.moreover unity can exist along with diversity.
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I agree when it comes to ethnicity that it was something very much disliked by Prophet (P.B.U.H) but wasnt the Turk identity of Ottoman Empire one of the main reasons of its collapse? Didnt the asbiyah issue existed even in times of rightly guided caliphs We cannot see things in isolation. Many a times you can tell which hadith relating to khilafat is in conflict with Quran and Sunnah when you look at history of that particular period.
As far as culture is concerned, I have already explained how customary practice is basis of law. For example, in Islam we have a concept of nuclear family. Since we have spent so many years with Hindus, we have inherited the joint family system as well. Does that mean joint family system is not endorsed by Islam? In my opinion, its simply a cultural thing and does not violate Quran and Sunnah anywhere. I have already explained that how there is actually khair in difference of opinion and the sectarianism issue.
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Then I will say they don’t have a leader who can lead them to their ultimate goal.we must not forget that leaders like imam Khomeini are still born who can change the opperessive system by leading people.
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Alright, then what about people like Imam Shmail and Imam ibn-Taimiyya? Didnt they give their lives to get rid of foreign invasion? Imam ibn-Timiyya was a very reformed person and had the leadership qualities as well, what happened then?
Meri behen when you have to face a joint military (NATO) tu there is very little you can do. When you have to face countries like Israel (that are actually controlling the world), who is going to support Palestinians with funds and weapons? Becharay abhi tak intifada ke tehrik chala rahay hain and keep getting rolled under tanks and get bombed. We can talk about resistance in Afghanistan owing to its geo-strategic position and intersts of different countries. What about Kashmir, jahan interest he sirf India Pakistan ka hai? What about Palestine where there is only interest of Muslims and non-Muslims? What good can a leader do? They have been struggling for years. Did we ever see them giving it a break? Had they been deprived of any leadership, they wont have been. But their leadership cannot provide them with funds and ammunition when there is literally an economic blockade. Have a look at whatever is going on in this world and then think why Prophet (P.B.U.H) said that Muslims are one body, I am sure you will get my point then.
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my stress is on reforming ourselves first.then to reform the system and working for unity of muslims.because if i reject this system no one can force me to adopt it.
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Meri behen I think I have already explained in detail but still let me boil it down once again, Meccan verses tell you about belief, about day of Judgement, about heaven and hell etc. Why? Because Prophet (P.B.U.H) had to inculcate these beliefs in people who did not believe in these. Namaz, zakat, jihad, all these commandments were revealed after the first state of Medina was established. All revelations regarding transactions were revealed then. The one billion Muslims in this world believe in five fundamentals in Islam, thats why they are Muslims. So where is the reformation part you need? They need their transactions to be governed by Islam.
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Some times you say it is impossible to reunite a billion muslims divided on different basis and other time you say its not impossible!well dear you are confusing me.and tell me where I said im going to reform a billion muslims? By reform I meant every muslim need to undertand his/her duty and everyone atleast can reform him/her self.
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You didnt get me. One billion Muslims can get united under a union if and only if all states legislate as per Shariah but do not interfere with internal matters (including beliefs) of other states and go for shared economy, shared foreign policy, shared military etc. The reforms you are talking about are not involving only beliefs but also transactions. A person might not pay zakat (knowing he'll face Allah's wrath) but he'll be bound to pay it because its his transaction with the state and state can force him. No one can force anyone when it comes to things related to belief, even state cannot.
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And in my view thinking about an advanced reformed state according to contemporary world’s requirements without reforming ourselves and overlooking ideal Islamic state concept is also like living in a bubble.)
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Thats perhaps because you are confusing beliefs and transactions (along with what acts are recommended, obligatory, prohibited etc). But still, you have an opinion and I respect that.
Edited Later: I think I have explained in detail a few points where you took me wrong. Since I get the hunch that the issue underlying here is nothing but your definition of reforms so I suggest you to kindly read some good book on Jurisprudence and find a little about beliefs and transactions along with types of acts. I am sure its gonna prove handy.