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Originally Posted by Hassan02
Just as I said, that reform can't come from within the system, it has to be forced on it from the outside. I'd say the separation of religion and state will be forced upon Pakistan by world events, but that may take a very long time, maybe even a century  |
Yup, internal rebellion, natural disasters and external aggressions have been major causes of shaking status quo and this pattern has beem repeated throughout history of rise and falls of civilizations, the only difference today being that the civilizations are so big it requires equally bigger level of catastrophe
. I agree world will try to force something and such attempts will meet resistance, eventually fit traits for survival in this environment will triumph
. Such competition can also result in some new trait for the world. So perhaps possibilities are endless I guess and we may not focus in only 'one possible outcome'
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan02
You know there's a concept in evolution that fits your words perfectly. According to natural selection, that gene survives which is the most well equipped for its OWN survival. Remember, its OWN survival, not the survival of the organism in which it resides. Of course, mostly a gene's survival depends on the survival of the organism, but that is not always the case.
The same applies to politicians. They may be well equipped for their own survival, but their survival is harmful to the country (the organism in this case).
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How can the 'selfish gene' survive if the organism doesn't, the selfish gene cannot reproduce and spread itself
. But yeah it's true that 'selfish genes' exist, and they exist in 'every organism' so somehow nature balances 'selfishness' by making it 'tough for survival'
. Adaptation is a vital trait, the 'selfish politicians' will soon adapt with the reality once nation gets a direction
. Right now we are in dire need of direction I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan02
Yes, but a charismatic person wouldn't necessarily be able to run a country. Its funny if you think about it this way, you wouldn't hire a person to run your factory just on the basis of his charisma, but a person can rule a country on that basis
BTW, many people claim that even though democracy is flawed, there is no system that's better and personally, I find it hard to refute this point because democracy is the only system that is self-correcting. All others will rapidly disintegrate into total dictatorship. |
I agree charisma alone is not enough, which is why I mentioned Pakistani people build stupendous expectations from charismatic personalities
. Perhaps the whole nation is inept and we cannot blame just one particular class
, they come from us. There is an old saying 'jaise log waise hukamran'
. But evolution doesn't stop so perhaps there is always a ray of hope in the end, but evolution is a long natural process and a lot of it depends more upon the environment then our 'wishes'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan02
BTW, many people claim that even though democracy is flawed, there is no system that's better and personally, I find it hard to refute this point because democracy is the only system that is self-correcting. All others will rapidly disintegrate into total dictatorship.
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This is the biggest question in my mind as well, what is being resisted in this culture??? Democracy certainly has excellent features and everyone claims to desiring that, then why people often come out complaining about democracy here??? Personally I feel 'free market' that promotes 'economic elitism' under democracy has something to do with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan02
True, but there's another force at work: Time. In his book, Richard Dawkins talks about a changing Moral Zeitgeist and while we may not agree with Dawkins about many other things, here he is absolutely right that throughout the world, values and morals are moving in a particular direction (they are becoming more liberal). The rate of change is slower in some countries and faster in others and there are temporary reversals, but over a long period of time there IS change and this change is in one particular direction.
Personally, I feel that he's right. Observe how this change is slow in Muslim countries and there are reversals such as in Pakistan, but even then, on a longer timescale, say a 100 years, we can see that he's right.
I'm sure that in the long run, maybe over 100-200 years, the moral Zeitgeist would have shifted so far from traditional beliefs that the mixing of religion and state would become impossible. It maybe sooner, maybe later, but it will happen.
Muslims need to get their act together. The world is changing and we must change with it. Time stops for no one and those who try to stop it are crushed as it passes by.
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Yes it's right that morals and values change with changes in environment. The basic reason for existence of these is to ensure survival, so changes in environment would definitely affect the survival strategy and in turn affect moral and values as well. But continuous tilt towards liberal side would perhaps depend upon the forces pushing it to that side's power and that the environment continuously support it. Ofcourse massive advancements in technology and weaponry has reduced the risk of big wars so 'traits of manhood' are less favored
and economic reliance on others in turn favor liberal values, but will there be no problems and 'liberalism will never turn tyrannical' is still a question. Don't forget we are also witnessing a reversal in Russia, which is not a 'Muslim country'
BTW despite not agreeing with the cause Dawkins promotes, I have remained his fan