Pak China Defense Cooperation
 

[B]Pak China Defense Cooperation[/B]

Over the years , it is good thing for ‘Iron Brothers’ that without concerning any condition in both countries , they establish good relations with each other. No matters, which govt. is in both countries, what economical condition in both countries they never compromise on their friendship . That’s why Pakistan’s Prime Minister ‘Mian M. Nawaz Sharif’ called this friendship as ‘Higher than Himalaya, Deeper than sea and sweeter than honey. ’

Both Pakistan and China had faced very critical situations after their creation. Pakistan had to fight with India in 1948 and China had to fight with Korea in 1951. In 1950 China due to same ‘Markixt Lenancy’ made friendship with Soveit Union. At that time Pakistan made agreement with USA and become its ally to counter ‘USSR’ . But in 1956, when ‘Kenita Khurshecv’ denounced legacy of Stalin. Then China cut off its friendship with Soveit Union in 1960. In 1961, China called Soveit Union as ‘Revisionist Traitors ’ and revolutionized its own type of Communism . After it in 1969 , a conflict of border between ‘China and USSR’ developed.

At that time Pakistan was ally of USA. USA had helped Pakistan economically and in military cooperation . But during war with India in 1965, when Pakistan needs of America in military cooperation it left Pakistan alone in battle field. At that time Pakistan understood America’s real face that it used Pakistan for its military cooperation but did not help Pakistan at time of need.

In 1962 , Pakistan moved forward towards China , because they both are not happy with aggressive behavior of India in Asia. So, Pakistan finds China as good friend. Because they have common enemy which is India. Both had fought war with India i/e Indo-Pak War in 1948 and Sino-Indo War in 1962. So, they find it better to cooperate each other so that counter India in this region. After 1963, Border agreement with China , China had cooperated Pakistan in economy , education and in defense. Pakistan from its foundation finds China as its first true friend.

China had cooperated Pakistan in its defense . China helped Pakistan to develop its first ‘Heavy Mechanical Complex’ , ‘Pakistan Ordinance Factory ’ through Pakistan makes itself capable to develop defense instrument from its own country. China has cooperated Pakistan financially and gave about $60 Million in 1965, $40 Million in 1969 and $200 Million for next five years.
Mr. Abdustattar in his book ‘Pakistan’s Foreign Policy from 1947-2005’ said,
“When USA has banned on its military sales , China supported Pakistan and helped two departments of Pakistan military and also gave MIG aircraft to Pakistan Air force. This was first kind of aircraft to Pakistan air force.”

China has cooperated Pakistan to build its ‘Pakistan Aeronautical Complex’ and ‘Heavy Industries’ in Taxila. China has also helped Pakistan to develop ‘Al-Khalid Tank’ which was due to combined efforts of ‘China-Pak Army’. In recent years Pak-China military cooperation makes our friendship more sweeter and stronger. Pakistan and China has now developed ‘Alkhalid Tank-1, K-8 Korakarm Training Aircraft, Alkhalid-II, Submarines and J-F17 Thunder fighter plane’.

Recent visit of Pakistan’s Army Chief ‘General Raheel Sharif’ towards China in 26 January 2015 makes our military cooperation more stronger. Chinese Foreign Ministry called it as ‘irreplaceable all weather friend’. China also concluded sale of ‘8 Conventional Submarines’ of worth $5 Billion to Pakistan Which was China’s largest military sale to any country. During visit of Pakistan’s Air force chief to China, he met with Vice Chief of China’s Defense and he also visited various defense institutions of China .

Recent China gave following defense instrument to Pakistan.

[B]JF 17 Thunder:-[/B]
JF 17 Thunder is fighting plane which was developed by efforts of ‘Pakistan’s aeronautical cooperation ’ and china’s defense industry . It is very light fighting plane. It can be used for ground attacks. It can be used for air to air attack and air to ground attack. It can carry ‘Beyond Visionary Range’ missiles.

[B]K-8 Karakoram Training Aircraft:-[/B]
K-8 training aircraft is new type of aircraft . It is light attack aircraft developed by combine efforts of ‘Hungdo Aviation Industry Cooperation’ and ‘Pakistan Aeronautical Complex’. It is replaced by current aircraft available to Pakistan’s army.

[B]AlKhalid Tank-I:-[/B]
Alkhalid Tank-I is variation of ‘Main Battle Tank’ which was available to Pakistan’s army from many years. In 2001, Pakistan had its first few Alkhalid Tank-I and in 2009 Pakistan had got 300 new Alkhalid tanks. Alkhalid-I Tank is new type of tanks and it is smaller in size. It has weight of 46 ton. It has speed of about 74-76 km/hr. It has acceleration of 32km/hr in 10 sec.

[B]Submarines:-[/B]
China has agreed to jointly co-produce ‘Diesel Electrical Submarines’ with ‘Air Independent Propulsion ‘. Which is need of Pakistan’s Navy. In March 2015, Pakistan’s Prime Minister approved this agreement with China. Through this agreement China gave Pakistan 8 new Diesel Electrical Submarines. Which will be also China’s biggest in military defense with any country.

[B]Alkhalid –II:-[/B]
Pak-China also agreed to reproduce modified form of ALkhalid-I which named as Alkhalid-II . It has ‘Integrated Battle Management System’ and ‘Active Threat System’. It will be generated combine cooperation of ‘Pakistan Heavy Industry Complex ’ and China’s Defense industry.

Jf 17 is old fighter. I wonder why Pakistan and China focused to make it. It is 3rd generation light combat aircraft. Even 1980s f16 are much better than jf 17.
Pakistan need to build j10 fighter based aircraft carrier with China and need to focus more to build with china j31 fc31 fifth generation twin engine sealth fighter much better and cheap than f35 recently also Russia denied to give su 35s to pakistan so we need to focus on such defense projects in order to maximize our deterrent capability ...at least the presence of such arsenal in pakistan would definitely haunt india

All the big nations like China Japan USA UK India Russia and even turkey making fifth generation fighters like tai fx ...if India can make sukhoi 30mki and sukhoi PAK FA T50 through joint cooperation with Russia then why can't pakistan build its own 5th generation stealth fighter with turkey and China..

Pakistan moved to china after realizing its strategic importance and as a rising power in Asia that took place when despute between china and india took place on Aksai china, which is famous as white land though after 1962 sino india war, and despite with Pakistan , India realized to making her policy of balance of power and inchoate Nuclear Power in South Asia, though at that time, USA's armed support to India and not taking any significant measures for its Nuclear policy, made Pakistan and China more resentful. China historical supported many time in Pakistan whether it be the Kashmir issue or sanctions over its Nuclear program and Pakistan too had made significant contribution over Taiwan issue and supported UNSC membership of china, though it may be the fear of India or USA that made two friends together or China's strategic planning to rose in South Asia as a leading power. One of the representative of china said that Pakistan is our Israel and that intensified contributions led to Sino-pak relations more sweetener then honey. Joint-Fighter 17 more commonly known as JF-17 is one of the remarkable contribution of both countries.

J f 17 is an inferior old light combat aircraft it isnt even all weather fighter.it is 3rd generation fighter[QUOTE][/QUOTE]..pakistan need 5th generation twin engine stealth fighter like j31 through joint cooperation...need aircraft's carrier..that real deal rather merely rely on submarines only...thats what truely will define our military strength and defence currently f-16 is much better than jf17

Adamant, please first explain the difference between a 3rd & 4th generation fighter plane and then explain the qualities that other 4th generation planes have that JF-17 lacks which makes it a 3rd generation fighter.

After you've done that, I'll answer all your objections on JF-17, submarines and a lack of aircraft carrier & 5th generation fighters.

I mentioned in two paragraphs for better choice what i know..u mention what u know

[QUOTE=Adamant;870054]I mentioned in two paragraphs for better choice what i know..u mention what u know[/QUOTE]
OK, read on Wikipedia the basis upon which fighter jets are classified into different generations. By any standard of classification JF-17 is a true 4th generation fighter, and starting from next year with Block 3, will be a true 4.5th generation aircraft.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fighter_generations[/url]

What does it lack from other 4th generation fighters?

Maneuverability? Better than F-16 block 52.

BVR missiles? Yep, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-12"]SD-10[/URL], comparable to AIM120C AMRAM. And you know what? soon enough JF-17 is going to get the 5th generation PL-15 BVR & PL-10 WVR missile by China. [URL="http://www.popsci.com/chinese-air-to-air-missile-hits-targets-spooks-usaf-general"]Even the USAF is spooked by them.[/URL]

All weather? Off course. Why would you even think its not all whether? Even Mig-21 is all weather. Been reading Indian forums too much? They're not good for your health.:nono

AESA Radar? Coming on from next year on block 3 . [URL="http://defence.pk/attachments/10881574_911333135592196_458588188979061188_n-jpg.223673/"]Confirmed by ACM himself[/URL]. BTW this upgrade makes JF-17 a 4.5th generation plane.

IRST? Block 3 will also have IRST. [URL="http://www.janes.com/article/52308/paris-air-show-2015-jf-17-fighter-flying-with-indigenous-chinese-turbofan"]Confirmed by PAF official during Paris Air show.[/URL] Do know what can be accomplished in an aerial encounter with a mature IRST solution? We can even see, track and target stealth planes i.e F-22 and F-35. Read this: [url]http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/infrared-search-and-track-systems-and-the-future-of-the-1691441747[/url]

AntiShip capability? Off course. With C-802 and the new Chinese CM400AKG Hyper sonic anti ship missile. [URL="http://missilethreat.com/aircraft-carriers-sitting-ducks/"]Even US is concerned about this one[/URL]. [URL="http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20131126000062&cid=1101"]Russians call it an aircraft carrier killer.[/URL]

[url]http://www.janes.com/article/44897/images-show-jf-17-flying-with-cm-400akg-hypersonic-asm[/url]

It even has some 5th generation stealth characteristics like the DSI intake which reduces RCS. In fact, the only other operational fighter jet on the planet with a DSI intake is F-35. Did you know that?

[url]http://www.grandestrategy.com/2007/12/252723-jf-17-fc-1-light-sabre-for-third.html[/url]

Avionics? Top notch, better than anything we have right now, even better than the F-16 block 52s.

Precision strike? You bet. [URL="http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/tag/wmd-7-targeting-pod/"]WMD-7 [/URL]advanced sniper pod for precision strike and target accusation.

Standoff weapons? Ra’ad ALCM, H2, H4, MAR 1 anti radiation missile. Whats missing?

[url]http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/tag/wmd-7-targeting-pod/[/url]

Tell me the name of one other fighter jet which can do all of the above in a price tag of $25 million. Tell me the name of one other fighter jet which has all of the above and can be called a 3rd generation fighter.

You need to stop underestimating what we've got going on with JF-17. Its so beutiful thats its make my heart ache with love :8:. Read more and more:


[URL="http://quwa.org/2015/08/14/jf-17-series-1/"]The JF-17 I: A Wave of Change for the Pakistan Air Force[/URL]


[URL="http://quwa.org/2015/08/21/jf-17-block-i-bvr/"]The JF-17 II: Introducing BVR & Precision Strike[/URL]


[URL="http://quwa.org/2015/08/30/jf-17-iii-jf-17-block-3/"]The JF-17 III: Major Changes Ahead on JF-17 Block-3[/URL]


[URL="http://quwa.org/2015/09/04/jf-17-iv-tomorrows-weapon-systems/"]The JF-17 IV: Tomorrow’s Weapon Systems[/URL]


As far as 5th generation aircraft are concerned, we'll get them in due course of time but JF-17 will remain the bulk of our PAF, as it needs to. Right now the enemy can be handled with what we have. Their T-50s aren't coming before 2025 at least. They cant even afford more than 36 Rafaels these days. What to talk about 5th generation fighters. We'll eventually get Chinese FC-31 or be a partner in Turkey's TFX program. But right now, we've got all we want and are in a very comfortable position.:)

Great analysis i love it...ans these few questions 1 but why pakistan was in talk with russia to buy su 35 if jf17 has such features...(the same janes.com wikipedia and sputnik.com had qouted ) 2 why they said we need twin engine stealth fighter like su 35 that can penetrate deeper into enemys territory 4 why pakistan is in talks with china to buy j31 if we can convert jf into 5th generation stealth fighter 5 is jf is an airsuperiority fighter 6 why does china not use it 6 why cant we make it a carrier supported aircraft 7 why cant we make it into twin engine thrust vectoring fighter so that no more cost on further import

8 why should we export it does american share or sale f 22 technology even India isn't exporting its su 30mki technology 9 why we require j10 if we have jf 17 already

[QUOTE=Adamant;870162]1 but why pakistan was in talk with russia to buy su 35 if jf17 has such features...(the same janes.com wikipedia and sputnik.com had qouted ) 2 why they said we need twin engine stealth fighter like su 35 that can penetrate deeper into enemys territory[/QUOTE]

Even with all the goodies that JF-17 has its role is that of a multi role fighter. It will be the backbone of PAF just like F-16s are the backbone of USAF. In their case, F-16 is the multi role and F-22 is the air superiority fighter. In our case, our F-16 Block 52 is the air superiority fighter and JF-17 the multi role fighter.

Ask yourself the question; why does the US need F-35 when they had F-22? Isn't that superior? Why is it that even after the development of F-35, majority of their air force will still be using F-16s?

Answer: Money, tactics & strategy. Read this, its very important: [URL="http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0216.shtml"]F-22, F-35 & the Hi-Lo Mix [/URL]

Why we looked into Su-35? Because:

1. We need a plane which can not only counter but dominate rafale when it arrives in India. A true air superiority fighter, better than F-16 block 52 because rafale is. Its very very good, 2nd only to F-22 even, as some would argue.

2. To protect CPEC sea lines a plane with longer endurance than JF-17 & F-16 is required. It doesn't have to be twin engined but needs longer endurance and heavy payload capability which the current JF-17 engine cannot handle.

[QUOTE]4 why pakistan is in talks with china to buy j31 if we can convert jf into 5th generation stealth fighter [/QUOTE]

JF-17 was never meant to be a stealth fighter and it will never be converted to be one. The design changings that it would require would be too much and it would be easier to create a new design altogether.

However, that doesn't meant that we wouldn't try to reduce its RCS as much as we can through the use of RAM coating and things like DSI intake etc. The lower your RCS is, the better.


[QUOTE]5 is jf is an airsuperiority fighter [/QUOTE]
It is not. As I said, its a multi role fighter. We use F-16 Block 52 as our air superiority fighter.

[QUOTE]6 why does china not use it[/QUOTE]
China's requirements are different. They have J-10 for their needs which has a longer range and payload. They have a big country and a even bigger coast line to defend which requires more endurance.

[QUOTE] 6 why cant we make it a carrier supported aircraft [/QUOTE]

We might be able to do it if we wanted to but we don't have an air craft carrier and we don't need it for now so the question doesn't arise. That would be like wasting our resources, billions and billions of dollars. Instead what we need are nuclear powered submarines for 2nd strike capability. That's where the money needs to go on the naval side.

[QUOTE]7 why cant we make it into twin engine thrust vectoring fighter so that no more cost on further import[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you're trying to say but we cannot make it a twin engine aircraft because that would require too much design changing. An easier thing would be to create a new twin engine fighter design. Ask yourself the question; why doesnt US change F-16 into a twin engine fighter? Because there's no need for it. Same is the case with us.

[QUOTE]8 why should we export it does american share or sale f 22 technology even India isn't exporting its su 30mki technology[/QUOTE]
There's a huge market for cheaper modern planes in African, Asian and South American countries which can earn us a lot of money. That's why we need to export it. Even the US is exporting F-35. Reason is money. But don't worry, no sensitive technology will be exported. An export version of a fighter jet is always a bit watered down than the original.

Su30MKI is not Indian technology. They are just assembling it in India with parts provided by Russia. They cannot export it because its not their product to sell, its Russia's. And Russia has sold Su30s to multiple countries like Indonesia and China for example.


[QUOTE]9 why we require j10 if we have jf 17 already[/QUOTE]

We're not going to buy J-10. JF-17 has turned out to be more capable than we had hoped for and has eliminated the need for J-10 for now. There is however a need for a longer endurance aircraft for the protection of CPEC sea lines. That's why we may look into J-11 or Su-35 but probably politics and our money situation won't allow us to buy them. We'll just wait for TFX or F31 to mature.

1st russia denied to give su 35 2 u say jf is not air superiority fighter it is multirole no thrust vectoring not much fuel capacity 3 why cant we make or convert it into multirole air superiorty fighter like su 30mki 4 would we look for fighter like su 35 if cpec coast lines in danger again there is no time to look here and there even iran itself making its own fgfa u should admit that jf 17 should be somewhere lacking thats why we were looking for su 35..if early we could develop it into a perfect air superiorty multirole fighter we should work on it now..WHO SAID WE ARENOT BUYING J10 I HADNOT SEEN IT ANYWHERE and last which idiot said that spending money on aircraft carrier is wastage of money...as a layman i know it would reduce fuel comsumption..carrying arming and recovering the aircraft millions and billions for corrupt bureaucrats and politicians not for a carrier...there shouldnt be any compromise over defense.. As it is a wall of country

And u said that why america need f35 because they are looking to replace aging fleet of f 16 f18 f 15 old versions ...and yes I accept my mistake of calling j 17 is an inferior fighter BUT it is not a perfect fighter as it should be..I presented my opinion u agree or not I don't care .I dream to see this powerful undaunted and. undisputed country from Jammu and Kashmir to Karachi and from baltistan to Baluchistan....even dream of complete country with powerful Islamic airforce army and navy delight me lot..

Dude first of all, you need to learn to make paragraphs because its very hard and annoying to read a wall of text.

[QUOTE=Adamant;870281]1st russia denied to give su 35[/QUOTE]
I know.
[QUOTE]2 u say jf is not air superiority fighter it is multirole no thrust vectoring not much fuel capacity [/QUOTE]
I didn't say not much fuel capacity, I said there are better ones out there.

And only Russia and US has thrust vectoring technology. Do you know how much money it costs to build a technology from scratch? F-35 development cost was $60 billion for the US which already had almost all of the industrial base for development. Imagine what it would cost us to try to develop something similar. Besides, thrust vectoring isn't even that important. These days you have HMDs with 5th generation high off-boresight capable WVR missiles to take care of super maneuverable aircraft. And that JF-17 is going to get in block 3. India doesn't have any. Even F-22 doesn't have that. End of story.

[I]HMD systems, combined with High Off-Boresight (HOBS) weapons, results in the ability for aircrew to attack and destroy nearly any target seen by the pilot. These systems allow targets to be designated with minimal aircraft maneuvering, minimizing the time spent in the threat environment, and allowing greater lethality, survivability, and pilot situational awareness.[/I]

Read further, its important: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet-mounted_display[/url]

[QUOTE]3 why cant we make or convert it into multirole air superiorty fighter like su 30mki [/QUOTE]

Conversion is not feasible, economically and otherwise. We have other much cheaper and feasible options for air superiority fighter like F31 & TFX, when they mature.

[QUOTE]4 would we look for fighter like su 35 if cpec coast lines in danger again there is no time to look here and there even iran itself making its own fgfa u should admit that jf 17 should be somewhere lacking thats why we were looking for su 35..if early we could develop it into a perfect air superiorty multirole fighter we should work on it now..[/QUOTE]
Dude first of all, CPEC is going to take a few years to complete. Even Gwadar isn't properly operational yet. We have all the time in the world. No need to panic. We'll wait and consider our options.

2nd, Iran isn't making sh*t. All they have are old F-4 copies with the most obsolete design and avionics ever. Forget air superiority, if they make something air worthy that would be a surprise. Bluffing is the name of their game.

3rd, did you even read the link that I posted? There's no point to this discussion if you're not reading. Hi Lo Mix and why its important, read: [url]http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0216.shtml[/url]

JF-17 has its own role, and its the bl**dy best in it. F-16 block 52 has its own role and its great at it. But rafale is coming to town and it needs to be countered by a better air superiority fighter. That's why we considered Su-35. It didn't pan out but rafale isn't coming for a few more years so we'll wait for TXF or F31 now, most probably.

[QUOTE]WHO SAID WE ARENOT BUYING J10 I HADNOT SEEN IT ANYWHERE [/QUOTE]
Remind me of this when J-10 lands in Pakistan.

Hint: It never will. JF-17 took care of that. It doesn't suite our requirements anymore. It cannot dominate rafale or give the same level of protection to CPEC that Su-35 could due to its longer range and payload. We have limited amount of money so we're going to wait for F31 or TXF for that.


[QUOTE]and last which idiot said that spending money on aircraft carrier is wastage of money...as a layman i know it would reduce fuel comsumption..carrying arming and recovering the aircraft millions and billions for corrupt bureaucrats and politicians not for a carrier...there shouldnt be any compromise over defense.. As it is a wall of country[/QUOTE]
Calm down. Even China doesn't have an operational aircraft carrier yet. Its takes time and money to develop technologies for it, huge amount of money.
Where is that going to come from? Your pocket? A Nimitz class carrier costs about $5 billion to build. Imagine what its development cost would be. F-35C costs $337 million per unit and its development cost was $60 billion. Do that math yourself for an aircraft carrier whose unit cost is $5 billion. And I'm not mentioning servicing and operational costs yet even though they are more than the building cost over the years.

Just for your info, Pakistan entire budget's revenue in 2011 was $26.7 Billion.

2nd, we don't need it. What are we going to do with?

As I said, what we need are SSNs for 2nd strike capability. Money is going into that because its required.

[QUOTE=Adamant;870288]And u said that why america need f35 because they are looking to replace aging fleet of f 16 f18 f 15 old versions ...and yes I accept my mistake of calling j 17 is an inferior fighter BUT it is not a perfect fighter as it should be..I presented my opinion u agree or not I don't care .I dream to see this powerful undaunted and. undisputed country from Jammu and Kashmir to Karachi and from baltistan to Baluchistan....even dream of complete country with powerful Islamic airforce army and navy delight me lot..[/QUOTE]
Dude, I don't give a damn about your thoughts as well if you're wondering. I'm just here to set the record straight because you were spreading nonsense against JF-17.

And if you had bothered to read what I had posted then you would have known that I asked you the question as to why even the US is not going to replace all its F-16s, F-15s and F-18s with F-35s. The answer to that is because its too expensive even for the US to do that. F-16s & F-15s etc are going to continue to be the backbone of USAF for the foreseeable future and you expect Pakistan to somehow produce some magical perfect 5th generation aircraft which will replace all older aircrafts?

[url]https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/sequester-may-force-usaf-to-retire-entire-fleets-of-aircraft-390668/[/url]

[url]http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/afa/2015/09/15/boeing-positions-f-15-as-f-22-supplement/72316414/[/url]

[url]http://aviationweek.com/defense/usaf-plans-76-billion-electronic-makeover-f-15s[/url]

3rd, there is no such thing as a perfect fighter. Even the F-22 has been shot down many times in exercises by Typhons, Growlers, Rafales and even F-16s etc.

[url]http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2014/09/23/when_the_french_shot_down_an_f-22_107455.html[/url]

[url]http://theaviationist.com/2013/06/19/f-22-shot-down-by-rafale/[/url]

[url]http://www.wired.com/2012/07/f-22-germans/[/url]

Check out on internet photos of j 10,in Pakistan flag then talk shame for j17 and makers of it...f 35 will replace aging fleet of f16 f18 and f15 check stats of f 35 on wiki...don't place j 17 on moon keep it in sky..HAD J 17 DEVELOPED INTO BETTER AIRCRAFT..THERE WAS NO NEED TO SEE FOR SU 35 OR J 10 NO NEED FOR THAT...BUT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY THINKS HE IS RIGHT..THATS WHY ARGUEMENT BECAME TUSSELE .AS YOU ARE PRESENTING GOOD FOR NOTHING REASON..YES FOR THE SAKE OF COUNTRY I WOULD LOVE TO SPEND EVEN FROM MY POCKET...IF SOMEWHERE I WOULD BE ABLE TO...I WOULD AGAIN SAY I PRESENTED NOT BETTER BUT BEST.I HAD RIGHT TO PRESENT MY OPINION..I LOVE TO WORK FOR COUNTRY NOT FOR THE PEOPLE OF COUNTRY ..


NO ONE. NO ONE WOULD GONNA AGREE

Qaheer f 313 is an iranian FGFA PROJECT STARTED IN 2013 2 Check out on internet photos of j 10,in Pakistan flag then talk shame for j17 and makers of it...f 35 will replace aging fleet of f16 f18 and f15 check stats of f 35 on wiki...don't place j 17 on moon keep it in sky..HAD J 17 DEVELOPED INTO BETTER AIRCRAFT..THERE WAS NO NEED TO SEE FOR SU 35 OR J 10 NO NEED FOR THAT IF OUR DEFENCE BUDGET DOESNT ALLOW US .....SUPPOSE IF THERE ARE SURGICAL STRIKES OR ENEMYS FIGHTER TO DAMAGE NATIONAL ASSET LIKE CPEC WOULD WE LOOKING HERE AND THERE WOULD J 17 COUNTER SU 30 OR DEASSULT RAFAEL ..WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF J 17 IF THERE IS ANY MULTIROLE AIRSUPERIORTY FIGHTER IN OUR HANGER BUT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY THINKS HE IS RIGHT..THATS WHY ARGUEMENT BECAME TUSSELE .AS YOU ARE PRESENTING GOOD FOR NOTHING REASON..YES FOR THE SAKE OF COUNTRY I WOULD LOVE TO SPEND EVEN FROM MY POCKET...IF SOMEWHERE I WOULD BE ABLE TO...I WOULD AGAIN SAY I PRESENTED NOT BETTER BUT BEST.I HAD RIGHT TO PRESENT MY OPINION..I LOVE TO WORK FOR COUNTRY NOT FOR THE PEOPLE OF COUNTRY ..


NO ONE. NO ONE WOULD GONNA AGREE[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Adamant;870327]Check out on internet photos of j 10,in Pakistan flag then talk shame for j17 and makers of it...f 35 will replace aging fleet of f16 f18 and f15 check stats of f 35 on wiki...don't place j 17 on moon keep it in sky..HAD J 17 DEVELOPED INTO BETTER AIRCRAFT..THERE WAS NO NEED TO SEE FOR SU 35 OR J 10 NO NEED FOR THAT...BUT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY THINKS HE IS RIGHT..THATS WHY ARGUEMENT BECAME TUSSELE .AS YOU ARE PRESENTING GOOD FOR NOTHING REASON..YES FOR THE SAKE OF COUNTRY I WOULD LOVE TO SPEND EVEN FROM MY POCKET...IF SOMEWHERE I WOULD BE ABLE TO...I WOULD AGAIN SAY I PRESENTED NOT BETTER BUT BEST.I HAD RIGHT TO PRESENT MY OPINION..I LOVE TO WORK FOR COUNTRY NOT FOR THE PEOPLE OF COUNTRY ..


NO ONE. NO ONE WOULD GONNA AGREE[/QUOTE]
Right, thanks for yelling. I suggest you read, observe and learn instead of yelling. Might I suggest pakdef forum as a starting point?

BTW, all J-10 pics with Pakistan flag are photoshopped and Qaher 313 is nothing but a cardboard model plane.

[URL="http://theaviationist.com/2013/02/02/iran-new-stealth-fighter/"]Iran unveils new indigenous stealth fighter “Qaher 313”. And here’s a detailed analysis.[/URL]

[URL="http://theaviationist.com/2013/02/04/iran-plane-cannot-fly/"]Here’s why Iran’s new stealth fighter jet can’t fly[/URL]

[URL="https://medium.com/war-is-boring/irans-faux-stealth-fighter-makes-embarrassing-second-appearance-5026447fd2fa"]Iran’s Faux Stealth Fighter Makes Embarrassing Second Appearance[/URL]

Any more reply's here would be a waste of my time. I've set the record straight for any rational person to see.

Adiós

And technology is changing day by day.and so as strategies so as stats will and ur stats would too. But there is a need to adjust according to defence and strategic standards innovately

I disapprove what u say but i will defend till death ur right to say. Cheers friend