Ursula and I discuss criminology
 

[b]Note- In case you are not aware I asked her for guidance and she wanted it to be public so I am making a post here.
I intend on discussing criminology syllabus and issues that I encounter while preparing this subject because this is the first optional I am preparing on my own and she had the same optional.
Feel free to jump in. However please try to stick to the subject. [/b]

Hey Ursula,
I hope you are good.

I have started criminology preparation and I started from section 1.
I am studying the book called " Theoratical Criminology by George B. Vold, Thomas J. Bernard, Jeffrey B. Snipes" and I don't know whether you read it or not.
My issue with section 1 is that in its point 4 below,

[b]Crime and Criminality: Theoretical Perspectives[/b]
Early explanation of criminal behavior
Biological Theories; Psychological Theories; Sociological Theories.
 Social Disorganization theory
 Strain theory
 Social Control theory
 Learning theory
 Labeling Theory
 Islamic perspective on deviance and crime.

the theories in bullets are all sociological theories. Psychological theories and biological theories are up to us to find and there is no narrowing down for us.

So early explanation of criminal behavior, I believe refers to classical criminology, then positivist criminology and I also studied Durkheim and Anomie. I loved this one the most.
So for biological theories I read overview of physiognomy and phrenology; Lombroso's work and Gorings; Sheldon to Cortes; Intelligence and relation between IQ and delinquency; Racial components; The Bell Curve; twins and adoption studies; Autonomic Nervous System and environmentally induced biological components of behavior. Is this all or there is more?

For psychological theories I read overview of Sigmund Freud and his psychoanalysis, personality tests, antisocial disorder and impulsiveness. Is this all or there is more?

I consulted the book mentioned above and it does a good job of explaining them and providing counter arguments when needed.
However all studies happened in Europe and US. Have we ever had any testing of these theories?


So so far this is all did, is it going well or am I deviating? I finished this book today and I didn't skip anything because I wasn't sure what is included and what isnt. Anyways that's all. Be the guide here please :)

If you need this book, I'll email it.

I have few other questions but I'll ask later. Don't want to inundate.

[QUOTE=Zainab S;920540]
Hey Ursula,
I hope you are good.[/QUOTE]
alhamdollilah

[QUOTE]My issue with section 1 is that in its point 4 below,

[b]Crime and Criminality: Theoretical Perspectives[/b]
Early explanation of criminal behavior
Biological Theories; Psychological Theories; Sociological Theories.
 Social Disorganization theory
 Strain theory
 Social Control theory
 Learning theory
 Labeling Theory
 Islamic perspective on deviance and crime.

the theories in bullets are all sociological theories. Psychological theories and biological theories are up to us to find and there is no narrowing down for us.[/QUOTE]
just add Chicago school of thoughts, that explains that trajectories of an individual lead to deviance due to social ecology,particularly from ancestors and older member of the society.
Also, my all time favourite and that is [B]marxist criminology[/B], that labels that socioeconomic factors lead to criminal mindset.(Please, if you find a good stuff regarding this than feel free to send me as well:angle)

[QUOTE] So for biological theories I read overview of physiognomy and phrenology; Lombroso's work and Gorings; Sheldon to Cortes; Intelligence and relation between IQ and delinquency; Racial components; The Bell Curve; twins and adoption studies; Autonomic Nervous System and environmentally induced biological components of behavior. Is this all or there is more?[/QUOTE]
Good, can you mention me what is the difference b/w nature vs nurture principle in ascertaining the deviant behaviour, keeping in view of socio-culuture aspects of pakistani society?
If you have grounded good reason than definitely its more than enough.:vic
[QUOTE]For psychological theories I read overview of Sigmund Freud and his psychoanalysis, personality tests, antisocial disorder and impulsiveness. Is this all or there is more?[/QUOTE]
Yup! i read that theory in detail. Now, analyze how criminal midset flourish out of rationalization, innovation, denial, and refutation keeping in view of id,ego and superego.
Secondly, freud also explains odeba complex that also links with feminist criminology in this regard.
In this regard i can share you some aspect that i once read in Norwagian based research institute report related to corporate criminology, which states that crime is more obvious in men than that of their counterparts.(read from this angle as well)
[QUOTE]I have few other questions but I'll ask later. Don't want to inundate.
[/QUOTE]
feel free to ask me!:))

@ursula
Do you think that international law can be better than criminology?Criminology seems to be having lots of syllabus and also one has to make much effort in finding relevant material for new subjects.As you have been through css,you can give a more informed opinion.Or is it that the cons of international law outweigh its pros.Some opine it‘s easy while others are there which find it extraordinarily difficult and assert that it requires extensive cramming.How criminology can be better.Kindly deliberate.

[QUOTE=Bookaholic;920780]@ursula
Do you think that international law can be better than criminology?Criminology seems to be having lots of syllabus and also one has to make much effort in finding relevant material for new subjects.As you have been through css,you can give a more informed opinion.Or is it that the cons of international law outweigh its pros.Some opine it‘s easy while others are there which find it extraordinarily difficult and assert that it requires extensive cramming.How criminology can be better.Kindly deliberate.[/QUOTE]
first of all i didnt study international law, though i did make a cursory look on malcolm book, but sorry in this regard.:happy:

secondly, sorry bro,what you have needed to [B]focus attentively[/B] is zainabs quote.
[QUOTE=Zainab S;920540] [B]However please try to stick to the subject. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
So, just mention your query in the most [B]apposite place[/B].I hope you will get the most appropiate answer then.

[QUOTE=ursula;921017]first of all i didnt study international law, though i did make a cursory look on malcolm book, but sorry in this regard.:happy:

secondly, sorry bro,what you have needed to [B]focus attentively[/B] is zainabs quote.

So, just mention your query in the most [B]apposite place[/B].I hope you will get the most appropiate answer then. [/QUOTE]
Well,you had ir and generally people with ir think through opting il with it and don‘t take it only after due consideration.So,thought you might would have mulled over not opting it.
Yea,I acknowledge that.But still I was discussing criminology,also in il comparison context.There isn‘t any use of posting in threads which are not being used or which have been long inactive and seldom there are responses to new threads.Because of rampant academy culture,forums are less used now.However,thank you for your invaluable contributions.

[QUOTE=Bookaholic;921056]Well,you had ir and generally people with ir think through opting il with it and don‘t take it only after due consideration.So,thought you might would have mulled over not opting it.
Yea,I acknowledge that.But still I was discussing criminology,also in il comparison context..[/QUOTE]
post in the relevant section, inshallah i will try.

Hi,
Sorry it has been raining for last few days. Ptcl is thus being whimsical. It is still whimsical; however, going back to topic.
But first @bookaholic. Dude! I specifically asked not to post irrelevant queries. It is common courtesy to respect wishes of original poster(s). Please make another post, in fact there is a huge section JUST for subject analysis. Ughh

@Ursula
I am relieved that whatever you typed, I had read once. Phew! I read the whole book once like a novel so now I am making notes and adding additional information from internet. I also got "The Oxford Handbook of Criminology" but somehow it goes all over my head.
Marxism as far as I know does not really focus on crime. In my humble opinion, according to Marx, elites make laws that keep the poors poor so revolting against those laws and seeking a more socialist environment might be termed as illegal or crime by law but it is not a crime. For anything he favored such individuals and thought they were necessary to bring revolutions (avant garde). It however, provided base for several other criminologists to base their researches on and use this frame of reference.
This is like the very very basic stuff and I am sure once I re-read it and make notes of it, it won't remain this simple. lol
I will definitely share my notes of marxism and crime. It will take me some days to get there. I am very methodical and slow.

Ok one more question from Section 1-part 2.
[B]Understanding criminology [/B]
-Security (physical, social, economics)

I don't really understand what it means. Does this mean physical security as in carrying guns around for protection? Social cost of protection from crime like hiring private security services, gated communities, investment in security locks and cameras and whole economics of it?

Is it so?

[QUOTE=Zainab S;921284]Hi,
I also got "The Oxford Handbook of Criminology" but somehow it goes all over my head.[/QUOTE]
very good book indeed, let me share you that i also happened to stock out its few chapters, if found difficult than read it in chunks and chuckles.;)

[QUOTE][B]Marxism[/B] as far as I know does not really focus on crime. In my humble opinion, according to Marx, elites make laws that keep the poors poor so revolting against those laws and seeking a more socialist environment might be termed as illegal or crime by law but it is not a crime. For anything he favored such individuals and thought they were necessary to bring revolutions (avant garde). It however, provided base for several other criminologists to base their researches on and use this frame of reference.[/QUOTE]
no lol! its a discipline and clear cut a new and revolutionary perspective.its been inspiring and catalysmic to me as well:D.For example how capitalism is tanatmount to imperialism.and for your info imperialism itself is a breeding ground for criminals. for example [B]role of icc at institutional level( international court of criminals),being exploited and economically made vulnerable at the cost of ASP.and at individual level, the most despecable person on planet earth, Rothschild dynasty-nazis in origin and german jewish in clanship. Any way story gets long and if you need any stuff related to this baggering personality, i can post a verygood documentary as well.[/B]
If you want some more stuff than read out 'david rockefeller and andrew carniegie".Lastly, this word "industrial complex " as well as "global consquest for capitalist hegemony".all the wish list of "corporate crime" as well, which you will read later on.
[QUOTE]Ok one more question from Section 1-part 2.
[B]Understanding criminology [/B]
-Security (physical, social, economics)

I don't really understand what it means. Does this mean physical security as in carrying guns around for protection? Social cost of protection from crime like hiring private security services, gated communities, investment in security locks and cameras and whole economics of it?

Is it so?[/QUOTE]
yupp!
Economic security itself can be best understood in terms of marxism,interesting fact that crimes are more prevalent in developing countries, similarly in [U]ghettos and slum[/U] areas, why? than how economic security can act as a remedy against the rampant deviant criminal behaviour, particularly budding blooms of juvenile delinquency.Similarly, social security as well as physical security.(if you need more assistance feel free to ask me again, because i made extensive observations in this regard)


Note: whatever you read try to link it with pakistani society as well.
i hope it worked though very little, but quite effectively.

[QUOTE=ursula;921323]very good book indeed, let me share you that i also happened to stock out its few chapters, if found difficult than read it in chunks and chuckles.;) [/QUOTE]

Phew! So I am not the only one. I thought I was very dumb while reading it. lol

[QUOTE]

no lol! its a discipline and clear cut a new and revolutionary perspective.its been inspiring and catalysmic to me as well:D.For example how capitalism is tanatmount to imperialism.and for your info imperialism itself is a breeding ground for criminals. for example [B]role of icc at institutional level( international court of criminals),being exploited and economically made vulnerable at the cost of ASP.and at individual level, the most despecable person on planet earth, Rothschild dynasty-nazis in origin and german jewish in clanship. Any way story gets long and if you need any stuff related to this baggering personality, i can post a verygood documentary as well.[/B] [/QUOTE]

See this is class difference. This reminds of my Conflict criminology's contrasting conflict view. In book theoretical Criminology it is presented as the following.
"... that societies are composed of groups with conflicting values and interests. However, the organized state is not said to represent the values and interests of society as large. Rather, it is said to represent the values and interests of groups that have sufficient power to control the operation of the state. Thus the basic argument of conflict criminology is that there is an inverse relation between power and official crime rate: people with less power are more likely (and people with more power are less likely) to be officially defined and processed as criminals." [sic]

So this follows the third frame reference of positivist criminology i.e. behaviour of law. They usually focus on why some people are termed criminal and some who do similar stuff avoid the tag. One of the things I read yesterday was about different degrees of murders esp. felony murder. If a person dies of heart attack during a bank robbery, the whole gang that comes to rob the bank gets hanged even if one of them is sitting in a car outside while when corporates that neglect or hesitate to enforce proper government codes of conducts go free even if their negligence result in deaths of hundreds of people. Most of the time the punishments they get are in the form of fines and often symbolic in nature. So why law is how it is. Then of course they check legislation process and all the steps.
Your example comes, imho in this section. But I am open to suggestion. Theoretical criminology overlaps a lot of theories. Frankly sometimes I go oh so this can go hand in hand with that other theory too.

Marxism comes under critical criminology that disregard traditional theories and tries to find answers elsewhere. What I understand about it is that it is like a room filled with people who just want to challenge everything that exists outside the room may it be laws, justice system, crime or even society. Everything is on the table.
Anyways I just went back to re-read that small chapter on Marx. So he talked about industrial revolution and how it was affecting social relations of production and then feudalism to capitalism change. He talks about how capitalism is survival of the fittest and keeps gobbling up the less fit so they keep getting smaller and smaller and richer and more and more powerful. Then he talks about polarization of society.
Ok here is what it talks about Marx and his idea of crime:
"Marx did not discuss the problem of crime or its relation to the economic system at length, although he did address the subject in several passages. Hirst argues that Marx's idea of crime centered on the concept of demoralization. Marx believed that it was essential to human nature that people be productive in life and in work. But in industrialized capitalist societies there are large number of unemployed and underemployed people. Because these people are underproductive, they become demoralized and are subject to all forms of crime and vice. Marx called these people "the lumpen-proletariat."
In another passage, Marx argued against the classical philosophy that was dominant in his day, which held that all people freely and equally joined in a social contract for the common good, and that the law represented a consensus of general will. Marx maintained that this view ignored the fact that unequal distribution of wealth in a society produced an unequal distribution of power. Those with no wealth have no power in the formation of the social contract, whereas those with great wealth can control it to represent their own interest. Thus Marx did not see crime ass the willful violation of common good, but as "the struggle of the isolated individual against the prevailing conditions." [sic]

There are few criminologists that based their work on his ideas mainly Bonger. So that's that.
I typed it all while copying it from paper copy and I am like ok what point I was making. Lol
May be that Marx, himself wasn't interested in crime and that there are many other criminologists that went around investigating on crime via socio-economic factors along with others.



[QUOTE]
If you want some more stuff than read out 'david rockefeller and andrew carniegie".Lastly, this word "industrial complex " as well as "global consquest for capitalist hegemony".all the wish list of "corporate crime" as well, which you will read later on.
[/QUOTE]
White collar crime seems such a huge portion. I shall finish this theoretical portion first then move on to that. It is scary, how much there is to read. wow
[QUOTE]
yupp!
Economic security itself can be best understood in terms of marxism,interesting fact that crimes are more prevalent in developing countries, similarly in [U]ghettos and slum[/U] areas, why? than how economic security can act as a remedy against the rampant deviant criminal behaviour, particularly budding blooms of juvenile delinquency.Similarly, social security as well as physical security.(if you need more assistance feel free to ask me again, because i made extensive observations in this regard)

[/QUOTE]
Ecology of crime I guess talks in detail about it. I loved reading about it. So interesting. Please do share your observations, in fact, hold on, I am back to basis. Let me tell you when I reach there so what you say makes sense to me. I have a feeling I messed up above but hey, will learn this way. lol
[QUOTE]
Note: whatever you read try to link it with pakistani society as well.
i hope it worked though very little, but quite effectively.[/QUOTE]

I'll try. :)

Ursula I really appreciate your help. I hope this doesn't become too bothersome for you. Let me know if it does, will keep it minimum

[QUOTE=Zainab S;921366]Ursula I really appreciate your help. I hope this doesn't become too bothersome for you. Let me know if it does, will keep it minimum[/QUOTE]

Yup, try to be concise and to the point, instead of creating long cook and bull story, just raise this concern that you believe that Marx theory doesn't work on criminological work as conflict theory has elaborated it precisely:confused:
But any ways,
I already told, its a revolutionary theory, here you can find [URL="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&rct=j&q=difference%20b%2Fw%20conflict%20theory%20and%20marx%20criminology&ved=0ahUKEwiiwcWevsbLAhWNH44KHecaC58QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D6223%26context%3Djclc&usg=AFQjCNGjBCHsSwSldbCVgypU_OjirPf3nA"]good stuff[/URL], and you can also [URL="http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~pa34/COWLING.htm"]consult[/URL] this one as well.
Still you need elaboration, i'll try by my own self.:shy
[QUOTE]It is scary, how much there is to read. wow[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid, you're mixing different perspectives as well. I.e. radical ideology(marxist criminology) with conflict theory. So try to be relevant as well. Critically analyse the differences among the different theories as well.

Still you have problem, ask freely.

Yeah my mistake, will try to be concise from now onward.

I'll be studying theories related to physical attributes of criminals and all today. Baby steps.
I'll check what I am understanding or rather not understanding about radical criminology when it comes to that. I think I am jumping ahead of myself and mixing too many things. This is what happens when you get excited and read it all in one sitting.
Sorry about that. I'll be careful in the future.

Which book did you read to cover this portion Ursula?

Well, you know I had just 1/4th of the year to cover the 12 subjects, the only subject that consumed my precious hours was "criminology".I consulted oxford handbook, critical geography(that covers gigantic portion of crimes at state level, like Gen.Pinochet in Elsalvadorl), pdfs and lomborso for physical attributes of criminology.
[B]Alhamdollilah, that covered the theories related to crime.(I just conceptualize and try to remember the theories with differences)
Note: every person has its sense of taste for reading and grabbing the central idea, if I'm not wrong than I already informed that" it doesn't matter, how many books have I studied, but definitely, it does how much i've retained".I.e. try to understand the idea and than develop rational CONCLUSION[/B].
I hope it will work

[QUOTE=ursula;921555]...the only subject that consumed my precious hours was "criminology".I consulted oxford handbook, critical geography(that covers gigantic portion of crimes at state level, like Gen.Pinochet in Elsalvadorl), pdfs and lomborso for physical attributes of criminology.
[/QUOTE]

Do you have this book in pdf? Can you share?

[QUOTE=Zainab S;921671]Do you have this book in pdf? Can you share?[/QUOTE]

Which book do want right now? Sorry I didn't comprehend you rightly.:shy

[QUOTE=ursula;921693]Which book do want right now? Sorry I didn't comprehend you rightly.:shy[/QUOTE]

...critical geography(that covers gigantic portion of crimes at state level, like Gen.Pinochet in Elsalvadorl),...

This one.

[QUOTE=ursula;921371]
I already told, its a revolutionary theory, here you can find [URL="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&rct=j&q=difference%20b%2Fw%20conflict%20theory%20and%20marx%20criminology&ved=0ahUKEwiiwcWevsbLAhWNH44KHecaC58QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D6223%26context%3Djclc&usg=AFQjCNGjBCHsSwSldbCVgypU_OjirPf3nA"]good stuff[/URL], and you can also [URL="http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~pa34/COWLING.htm"]consult[/URL] this one as well.
.[/QUOTE]

Already,mentioned here, it will present you [B]good[/B] solution as well.

Zainy, are you OK!
We didn't meet for couple of days, I hope all things are gonna to be working according to your's expectation.;)

Hi,
it's very nice of you to ask. I have been studying theoretical criminology book by vold. I read it again, this time more carefully and it took me a lot of time. Finally it is done. I thought to come here after it is done and I have understood it because I start running around with ideas and mix up stuff and then get embarrassed when I get called out on that. lol so was trying to be a responsible person.
You were right I was mixing up the radical with conflict. I know it might be stupid to revisit same book but now things are making more sense to me. You were also right about Marxism and its relativity with criminology. I was focusing on just him and criminology, later on it panned out and got divided into many strands. (instrumentalists, structuralist, left realism, there is feminist perspective here too that brings patriarchy in focus and juveniles and others because socio-economics plays a huge role in society).
I am trying to figure out why marxism doesn't come under conflict criminology. It talks about power centres too. Can you help me over this?
So far this is the one that is bugging me the most.
:)

Are you on twitter?

[QUOTE=Zainab S;924674]
I am trying to figure out why marxism doesn't come under conflict criminology. It talks about power centres too. Can you help me over this?
So far this is the one that is bugging me the most.
:)
Are you on twitter?[/QUOTE]

I'm on twitter, but unable to exchange because of ma personal matters, and I hope you won't fuss over the issue, dude!:wub:
Conflict perspective basically tilted on the same notion, that otherwise differentiated on the basis of outcome, as radical ideology challenges the bureaucratic and world system of governance as exploitative, conflict don't.
Conflict theory talks about the reformative principles while Marxist is radicalist.I mean system of governance as" dictatorship of working class".
Sorry buddy , this time my wifi connection is getting whimiscal,its my third reply (since first two has been lost foreverly)and I hope it can be uploaded.:evil

I have a lot of interest in this field and want to opt this subject. I have 2 books with me: Sohail Bhatti's & Imtiaz Shahid's but they are too bad to rely upon. Could anyone mention a good book for this subject. I prefer to read 1 book and revise it for 5 times rather than reading 6 books for a single time so i would request to please mention 1 or at max 2 books ☺

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=civilengineer92;925160]I have a lot of interest in this field and want to opt this subject. I have 2 books with me: Sohail Bhatti's & Imtiaz Shahid's but they are too bad to rely upon. Could anyone mention a good book for this subject. I prefer to read 1 book and revise it for 5 times rather than reading 6 books for a single time so i would request to please mention 1 or at max 2 books ☺

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
with just one book covering the whole syllabus is [U]almost impossible[/U], as far as my experience is concerned.
Refer to books, me and zainy has already mentioned couple of good sources,you have just needed to explore these pages again.
i hope it will work.

[QUOTE=ursula;925232]with just one book covering the whole syllabus is [U]almost impossible[/U], as far as my experience is concerned.
Refer to books, me and zainy has already mentioned couple of good sources,you have just needed to explore these pages again.
i hope it will work.[/QUOTE]
Can't study that much a material for a 100 marks subject because i need to revise at least 3 times before appearing in exams to do justice with my preparation.. can you please mention the best 2 books you found? I would happily take that 😊

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=civilengineer92;925330]Can't study that much a material for a 100 marks subject because i need to revise at least 3 times before appearing in exams to do justice with my preparation.. can you please mention the best 2 books you found? I would happily take that 😊

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Its been difficult to me, why not ask for others assistance, since there is already a clear cut 4 sectioned demarcation.I am afraid I can't.
Sorry bro!

[QUOTE=civilengineer92;925330]Can't study that much a material for a 100 marks subject because i need to revise at least 3 times before appearing in exams to do justice with my preparation.. can you please mention the best 2 books you found? I would happily take that 😊

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
crime theories and typologies by Larry. j siegel.

cover investigation and interrogation part and few topics of fourth part are available on net.

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[QUOTE=ursula;925352]Its been difficult to me, why not ask for others assistance, since there is already a clear cut 4 sectioned demarcation.I am afraid I can't.
Sorry bro![/QUOTE]
Its all right.. thanks for attempt of assistance anyway.. most of the aspirants don't even reply to a quarry.. :)

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[QUOTE=qublai khan;925365]crime theories and typologies by Larry. j siegel.

cover investigation and interrogation part and few topics of fourth part are available on net.

Sent from my A10 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Thanks bro.. :)

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=civilengineer92;925434]Its all right.. thanks for attempt of assistance anyway.. most of the aspirants don't even reply to a quarry.. :)

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Well, buddy, in case of assistance or help, feel free to ask me: since I believe that learning is a two way process.:)
Again my goood suggestion to you is read out couple of books and make your own notes, in case of one book one note formula, I am afraid you will have some problems in your paper.

[QUOTE=ursula;925468]Well, buddy, in case of assistance or help, feel free to ask me: since I believe that learning is a two way process.:)
Again my goood suggestion to you is read out couple of books and make your own notes, in case of one book one note formula, I am afraid you will have some problems in your paper.[/QUOTE]
I am not making any notes.. instead i highlight the main points on books.. making notes is a hectic work and i would prefer to revise one more time rather than making notes.. everyone has his own method :)
May be you are right.. i have read max 2 books for the subjects that i have prepared, mostly 1 book per subject but a quality one. This strategy will be tested in test sessions at the end of this year.. right now i just hope it doesn't backfire..

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[QUOTE=ursula;924702]I'm on twitter, but unable to exchange because of ma personal matters, and I hope you won't fuss over the issue, dude!:wub:
Conflict perspective basically tilted on the same notion, that otherwise differentiated on the basis of outcome, as radical ideology challenges the bureaucratic and world system of governance as exploitative, conflict don't.
Conflict theory talks about the reformative principles while Marxist is radicalist.I mean system of governance as" dictatorship of working class".
Sorry buddy , this time my wifi connection is getting whimiscal,its my third reply (since first two has been lost foreverly)and I hope it can be uploaded.:evil[/QUOTE]

Oh ok. Twitter just seems more accessible. Sometimes a thought occurs to you or something, easier to rant there than here. Also, this site never loads on mobile network internet so in cases where my DSL is acting up, I can say, hold on, I am alive just net is messed up.

So the whole reason why marxism is not part of conflict theories is that a: it is not reformative and radical in nature and b: it challenges whoever is exploiting the system for their own gains. Right, I guess it makes sense. :) Thanks.

I moved on to the criminal justice system.
I read 4 types of systems: Crime Control model, Due Process model, Just desert and Administrative model.
I also checked police and its role. But I am little confused here. Do I need to make notes on Police history in UK,USA and Pak? Do I need to memorise police ranks and their domains? Right now I studied very short history of police and then I studied it w.r.t criminal procedure. Like how FIR gets registered and how they move from there and all but as I said I am running in all directions and I guess I wasted few days over it.
Could you help bringing any sense to it?

What did you do regarding Islamic perspective of deviance and crime? I got my hand on a book called Islamic perspective on criminology by professor Aulakh. I found it rather sub-standard. It didn't give any new information.

@civilengineer92 I understand your point, I am like you too in studying but it is such a vast field that I am afraid only multiple books will help and this is so time consuming. So I'd suggest stop looking for that one book and get ready to spend hours reading chapters after chapters from different books. It get frustrating real fast.

[QUOTE=Zainab S;925587]Oh ok. Twitter just seems more accessible. Sometimes a thought occurs to you or something, easier to rant there than here. Also, this site never loads on mobile network internet so in cases where my DSL is acting up, I can say, hold on, I am alive just net is messed up. [/QUOTE]
i feel reallysorry for that one.Actually i was willing, but from this forum i did receive some bad gossips, which enforced me for such a bold step,ironically, under the disguise of a lady.:wacko:
[QUOTE]So the whole reason why marxism is not part of conflict theories is that a: it is not reformative and radical in nature and b: it challenges whoever is exploiting the system for their own gains. Right, I guess it makes sense. :) Thanks.[/QUOTE]
yeah, you can say so,in ir, inshallah you will grasp it lucidly.
[QUOTE]I moved on to the criminal justice system.
I read 4 types of systems: Crime Control model, Due Process model, Just desert and Administrative model.[/QUOTE]
keep it up!
[QUOTE]I also checked police and its role. But I am little confused here. Do I need to make notes on Police history in UK,USA and Pak? Do I need to memorise police ranks and their domains? Right now I studied very short history of police and then I studied it w.r.t criminal procedure. Like how FIR gets registered and how they move from there and all but as I said I am running in all directions and I guess I wasted few days over it.
Could you help bringing any sense to it?[/QUOTE]
Nope, just [B]theorized how our policing system is different from that of west.[/B](my neighbourer, who is inspector and also lecturing at sahala has told me that)just be relaxed!
[QUOTE]What did you do regarding Islamic perspective of deviance and crime? I got my hand on a book called Islamic perspective on criminology by professor Aulakh. I found it rather sub-standard. It didn't give any new information.[/QUOTE]
made notes all by own self and thanks god i have strong analytical power in this regard, like iam a strong critique of council of islamic ideology, blasphemy laws and most importantly status of women and juveniles in our society.
Basically muslim countries are patriarchical, fanatic, conservative and psudo islamic practitioners.Freedom of expression and right of gender equality is considered taboo over here.Moreover, Stock holm syndrom and religious obseessive dominance has worsened that situation further.( you can have your own point of view)pew!
lastly, obssessive interfarence of religious sect has exacerbated the situation further.For example rapid deterioration of peace in middle east due to common myth that khalifhat system is better than democratic form of government.....
[QUOTE]@civilengineer92 I understand your point, I am like you too in studying but it is such a vast field that I am afraid only multiple books will help and this is so time consuming. So I'd suggest stop looking for that one book and get ready to spend hours reading chapters after chapters from different books. It get frustrating real fast.
[/QUOTE]
Remember hard work and dedication is the key to success,
zainy, do you know, now i have understood, why Quaid said
Work, work and work.:laugh:

[QUOTE=ursula;925601]i feel reallysorry for that one.Actually i was willing, but from this forum i did receive some bad gossips, which enforced me for such a bold step,ironically, under the disguise of a lady.:wacko: [/QUOTE]

Really? Now I am curious. I never heard any gossip. I feel terribly left out. lol
[QUOTE=ursula;925601]

Nope, just [B]theorized how our policing system is different from that of west.[/B](my neighbourer, who is inspector and also lecturing at sahala has told me that)just be relaxed!
[/QUOTE]
Well lucky you!
Can you elaborate it further like what did you study regarding it so I search over that and possibly add more points?
[QUOTE=ursula;925601]
made notes ....
lastly, obssessive interfarence of religious sect has exacerbated the situation further.For example rapid deterioration of peace in middle east due to common myth that khalifhat system is better than democratic form of government.....
[/QUOTE]
You and I are in the same boat here. I think on same lines though I am sure your arguments will have more facts than me because I still have a lot to study.
[QUOTE=ursula;925601]
Remember hard work and dedication is the key to success,
zainy, do you know, now i have understood, why Quaid said
Work, work and work.:laugh:[/QUOTE]
Yeah Quaid was a great man and the only leader I respect with all my heart. Rest and especially current ones are pygmies in comparison.

[QUOTE=Zainab S;925630]Really? Now I am curious. I never heard any gossip. I feel terribly left out. lol[/QUOTE]
yup, even worst than that.......
[QUOTE]Well lucky you! [/QUOTE]
well, she is not as cooperative as iam with you, she has some attitude and hers bluffy response creates more irritation for me.
Sometimes she answer ma query with hun han and says why not consult net, when everthing is available on the internet,and and and i was like is she seducing me????
[QUOTE]Can you elaborate it further like what did you study regarding it so I search over that and possibly add more points?[/QUOTE]
dupe, our policing system has innate faws acting like servants of political figures, ironically DMG(also known as PAS) is more powerful than law enforcement agencies or in simple words, the purpose of policing is maintainig the watch dogs of those miscreants who challanges the obsoleted system,police also serves the interest of feuds and noble beings,
Thats the reason why we are still following [B]former british colonial orders[/B] such as torturing, randition and sub human treatment is a norm of our investigative officers.
Contrary to brits, they deserves the highest ranks of applauses(oh my gossh i studied so many novels and watched documentries)their tactics of investigation and tackling of crime is very advance, even extensive usage of dogs like shepherd to stop the menance of pounds smuggling,Culture of meritocracy, no political interfarence and supremacy of investigative and prosecutorial power is awesomely infinitsome that inspires me alot.
now come to Pakistan,i hope you are familiar with brutes of punjab police and manual registration of FIR.Come to mysogyny, do you know there is no law to protect women from domestic violence.( current bill is also being lambargasted by religiously pampered mullahs and even there is planned ongoing protest.....)oh yeah gullu culture as well.
let me[U] allow to have a breath of fresh air[/U].:unsure:
[QUOTE]You and I are in the same boat here. I think on same lines though I am sure your arguments will have more facts than me because I still have a lot to study.[/QUOTE]
Buddy, the more you study the more you feel uncomfortable about the [B]worlds[/B] system of governance,
Even now i'am thinking why and for what purpose i have applied for this exam, because i feel i am incompetent to compromise on giga corruption and frauds, while the second name of this world is "hawX"

[QUOTE]Yeah Quaid was a great man and the only leader I respect with all my heart. Rest and especially current ones are pygmies in comparison.[/QUOTE]
Contrary to that of mine, do you know "[B]Henry Wallace[/B]" and "[B]Leon Trotsky[/B]", i wish if he could have been alive, i would have ma rest of life under their [U]subordination[/U].My list of heroes is very long, but these persons are always been at the top.
Inshallah, we have a next session.
Bye!

To hell with criminology & Public ad.. i am going with IR 😂 itni books hi prhni hn to 200 marks to tyar hon...

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[QUOTE=civilengineer92;925657]To hell with criminology & Public ad.. i am going with IR 😂 itni books hi prhni hn to 200 marks to tyar hon...

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
Go ahead, more than welcome!

[QUOTE=ursula;926031]Go ahead, more than welcome![/QUOTE]
Actually i had always thought of opting IR, had even bought & started reading Joshua S.Golstein's book in January and it is the only subject for which i can study as many books as suggested. But after having a glance at the past scoring threads of IR, i had to review it, though with a heavy heart, as it has not proved to be a high scoring subject ever.. though it is the most interesting of the lot
In short: confusion, confusion, confusion everywhere 😂

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And sorry for ruining your informative thread about criminology...

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[QUOTE=civilengineer92;926097]And sorry for ruining your informative thread about criminology...
[/QUOTE]
Oh well...at least you had the decency to say sorry so I guess it is good. Good luck!
[QUOTE=ursula;925638]yup, even worst than that.......

well, she is not as cooperative as iam with you, she has some attitude and hers bluffy response creates more irritation for me.
...and i was like is she seducing me???? [/QUOTE]

lol. I studied from a women university so this is not very surprising for me. Some girls/women just don't grow out of their metric level mindset. You know like not helping others because you are afraid other one will get more marks and take your position. It's lame but oh well. Everyone is a guard dog of his/her position. I personally don't believe in such practices.
Thank you for your guidance. I really appreciate it. I don't know if I'd be able to make it but I shall be forever in your debt for this. If it were a real life meeting, I'd be paying the bills for tea or whatever as thank you.
[QUOTE=ursula;925638]
dupe, our policing system has innate faws acting like servants of political figures...
brits, deserves the highest ranks of applauses their tactics of investigation and tackling of crime is very advance, even extensive usage of dogs like shepherd to stop the menance of pounds smuggling,Culture of meritocracy, no political interfarence and supremacy of investigative and prosecutorial power is awesomely infinitsome that inspires me alot.
now come to Pakistan,i hope you are familiar with brutes of punjab police and manual registration of FIR.Come to mysogyny, do you know there is no law to protect women from domestic violence.( current bill is also being lambargasted by religiously pampered mullahs and even there is planned ongoing protest.....)oh yeah gullu culture as well.
[/QUOTE]
Ever since I read theoretical criminology, I have become somewhat more removed. It is weird but now I don't look at societies and lament at my own. I have become more of an observer. I observe and move on. I know when the levy will break, the emotional trauma for me will be stronger than usual but what can one do in such society. The thing is we are centuries behind in thinking and customs. The spiritual explanations and classical theories are more or less where our system stands. We run in circles within these two points. We have to move at much faster pace but here we are discussing how women empowerment bill is unislamic and how pedophiles and rapist don't exist in our societies. What can one do but go stoic. Revolutions are always bloody and pygmies would only get us butchered and nothing would change in the end. I am hopeful, still, but truth is there is a long and winding road in front of us and it'll take some time.
[QUOTE=ursula;925638]
Buddy, the more you study the more you feel uncomfortable about the [B]worlds[/B] system of governance,
Even now i'am thinking why and for what purpose i have applied for this exam, because i feel i am incompetent to compromise on giga corruption and frauds, while the second name of this world is "hawX"
[/QUOTE]
Call me silly or stupid but once I decide on something I like to see it through. So till 2017, I am not going to fuss over my why's. One step at a time. If it helps, may be having someone like you in the system can be good in long run. Too many of us sit outside and whine. We can do with one less member. :)
[QUOTE=ursula;925638]
Contrary to that of mine, do you know "[B]Henry Wallace[/B]" and "[B]Leon Trotsky[/B]", i wish if he could have been alive, i would have ma rest of life under their [U]subordination[/U].
Bye![/QUOTE]
Don't know much about Henry Wallace.
I know Leon Trotsky though, because of my interest in communism and Bolshevik movement and the whole Lenin-Stalin-Trotsky affair. I never read him without references to Stalin. For me, he lost some points when Stalin, a much lesser intellectual managed to out maneuver him. I respect the guy and was rather sad at his demise and life in exile. He deserved better. I also like Farida Kohlo because I studied her paintings, guess world was a small place even back then. :)

I am doing Juveniles section from J. Seigel's book. So many facts and figures, my head hurts. I don't have any issues for now.

[QUOTE=Zainab S;926138]Oh well...at least you had the decency to say sorry so I guess it is good. Good luck!


lol. I studied from a women university so this is not very surprising for me. Some girls/women just don't grow out of their metric level mindset. You know like not helping others because you are afraid other one will get more marks and take your position. It's lame but oh well. Everyone is a guard dog of his/her position. I personally don't believe in such practices.
Thank you for your guidance. I really appreciate it. I don't know if I'd be able to make it but I shall be forever in your debt for this. If it were a real life meeting, I'd be paying the bills for tea or whatever as thank you. [/QUOTE]
Such mentality in simple words is define as "jealousy".May God forbid, more among the girls than our counterparts do have.
[QUOTE]Ever since I read theoretical criminology, I have become somewhat more removed. It is weird [/QUOTE]
Remember life doesn't work according to our plans;hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
[QUOTE]
Call me silly or stupid but once I decide on something I like to see it through. So till 2017, I am not going to fuss over my why's. One step at a time. If it helps, may be having someone like you in the system can be good in long run. Too many of us sit outside and whine. We can do with one less member. :)[/QUOTE]
Every person has its own unique identity and I respect for that.
Refering to me, I found myownself quite oblivion to being apologatic, every time I rendered to same case.Lol, make me embarrassed.

[QUOTE]Don't know much about Henry Wallace.[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, he was USA undersecretary at the time of Franklin D Roosevelt, since you ought not opt the US history, that's not point o concern.
[QUOTE]I know Leon Trotsky though, because of my interest in communism and Bolshevik movement and the whole Lenin-Stalin-Trotsky affair. I never read him without references to Stalin. For me, he lost some points when Stalin, a much lesser intellectual managed to out maneuver him. I respect the guy and was rather sad at his demise and life in exile. He deserved better. I also like Farida Kohlo because I studied her paintings, guess world was a small place even back then. :)[/QUOTE]
Yeah half true and half lies,
He was a revolutionary man who stood against the stalinism, racism, facism and political intrigues.Had there been respect and non conspiratorial plot against Trotsky there would have been no world war-ll and also no Stalin hitler appeasement policies.(You can say worlds boggy man conspired against him because of his radical ideas)
Stalin used to crumble up his each piece of writing and publication in his cupboard and that was the proof of his intelligensia.
(I love the person whose fame resides in opponents heart )
Ummmm!:huh
He was tremendous man and very egg head of his time even you can say till now.

[QUOTE]I am doing Juveniles section from J. Seigel's book. So many facts and figures, my head hurts. [B] I don't have any issues for now[/B].[/QUOTE]
Sense of relief for me.:D

In Juvenile Delinquency section there is a point regarding behavioral vs Legal.
So behavioral is chronic repeaters. Who are legal ones? Are those the ones that get trial in adult courts?