Has dower (haq Mahr) become a problem?
 

Assalam-O-Alaikum to all!

I want to discuss here regarding recent practices of dower(Haq Mahr), what do u think if it has become a problem?

What is its social impact? Which kind of social problems people are facing through dower? (in case of high amount)

And what factors are behind that practices? What do you think we people are following trends set by upper class or it is matter of show off?
I just want to know different views of you people, come foreword and give your view please, people from different culture and remote areas are preferred as well to give your opinion.

Thanks,

Zoyee

As per my my observation the issue ov unnecessarily high demands of Dower is mainly present where the girl is so called well educated n often a working women(Now dont get me as opponent of women education n working, This may well be the case wid even one who z nt but im talking of my personal experience(i.e is of ppl around me, im still single;)) )
Now comin 2 pt dey ask fr such high dower coz even wen dey r initiating a new relationship, dey at da back of dere mind have doubts regarding its durability. Now ppl might say tht actually those women r aware of dere rights nd know how 2 protect it. But i differ. I mean what i perceive of tht is they actually are putting tht 10 million rupees an alternative to dere relation( I quoted 10 million coz it was fixed recently in my czn'z wedding but it might be way higher in some ceses) How can u be sincere abt a relation wen u start it wid an element of distrust. I would expect a learned female (nd for me learned nt necessarily means a Masters degree holder. I,ve seen many Masterz degree holders men n women who actually are ........ ) but again fr me i learned female will be more capable of keeping smooth all her relation nd doesnt really need a protection of a Dower going upto millionz.. Relations r priceless let them be!!!

Regards

@ Zoyee;

Asalam-o-Alikum,

According to my knowledge, I think Dower is not a problem but a precaution against injustice to women. In contemporary world, Few groups criticize high dower issue and consider it as a burden and injustice to man to pay dower. But if we look into our Past.
During the reign of Khulfa-I-Rashdeen, When Hazrat Umar (R.A) decided in meeting to cap the limit of dower, at that point, Few women present in that meeting, criticize Hazrat Umar (R.A) and said, " Who You are decide to Cap limits of Dower, even When Allah and His Rasool (PBUH) never talked about any such thing." At that point Hazrat Umer (R.A) took his decision back and give decree not to cap the limit of dower.

According yo Padwazi, Dower can be set on the persons of customs, tradition or her own qualities, which includes Beauty, Intellectuality, modesty and knowledge. It varies from any other individual due to distinct customs and treditions in pakistan. However, believing dower setting at high demand is not following upper class traditions, but it is to provide aegis to woman to protect her life with dignity.

Indeed, Dower is problem only to those, who wants to betray woman trust, to cheat women feelings and hurt the modesty of women. Otherwise, Dower is not a problem to any good muslim. It is a protection of female to protect her from any injustice. Besides Muslim law and Family Ordinance 1961 also protects women right though arbitarion council (Union Council).


Thats What i Know :). And will write if i get this thing in exam.
See you soon Zoyee.


FEEAMANALLAH,

@ S_Ranjha

So-called educated girls shouldn't demand for a big dower to prove themselves learned but I can't understand that why the actual educated boys don't hesitate to recieve a huge dowry. :thinking:thinking

@ Nageen

Well i tried 2 answer what was asked nd tht didnt included da pt u raised. Secondly if u think i was wrong in saying tht u can always differ coz im no authority. I just told as i see it. I belong to a Landlord family where most peoples had traditional ideas n custom until da generation of my father when ppl start 2 get into education nd dere minds were bit alter nd now da generation includin me is more towards enlightened modernization. So i have seen both kind of attitudes the traditional one as well as contemporary one. Nd i,ve come upto da conclusion the our traditional social fabric is much more effective in ensuring thee just treatment of women in relation than high dower. I can remem the times wen some women complained of injustice by his man n da whole family even da family of tht very man was out dere backing her stance nd ensuring her all rights. But the Actual educated gulz of 2day are fed up of tht social fabric nd think of tht like a unbearable burden n look out fr protection means like high dower but it hasnt paid off.

as far as ur pts regarding dowry z concerned tht again in my family although most of time u r ryt tht dowry is huge but tht has nothing 2 do wid so called educated boyz. Tht s more out of our culture but the thing i wud like 2 mention contrary 2 ur perception atleast in our culture it z never demanded. Actually the person or family even demanding it through equivocal means is considered cheap n disgraced. Here i just told u what happenns nd may nt necessarily be defending it. The dowry must be as per customs traditions nd contemporary circumstances of both parties 2 marriage.

My brother above tried 2 gave some criteria mentioned regarding dower in islamic law. " Dower can be set on the persons of customs, tradition or her own qualities, which includes Beauty, Intellectuality, modesty and knowledge" nd i guess it also includes family background as well. Right they are but keeping in view all these may be da guls frm my family are entitled to dower of millionz but they actually dnt go 4 it nd rather go for protection of our social fabric n traditionz nd wen u put same criteria 2 many of the gulz who want to fix dere dowers in millions actually dun even qualify fr some lacs

Again my views nd no offence meant. Anyone can differ

Regards

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166102]@ Nageen

Well i tried 2 answer what was asked nd tht didnt included da pt u raised.

Nd i,ve come upto da conclusion the [B]our traditional social fabric is much more effective in ensuring thee just treatment of women in relation than high dower.[/B] I can remem the times wen some women complained of injustice by his man n da whole family even da family of tht very man was out dere backing her stance nd ensuring her all rights. [/QUOTE]

That point wasn't in the question, it came in my mind after your reply.
And this 'traditional social fabric' may be more effective in your family not everywhere.If other family members back a woman it doesn't imply that she should deprive herself of her right(dower).According to my knowledge the maximum amount of dower isn't fixed in Islamic Law.So if someone can afford to give 10 millions then what's bad in it? yes, in most of the cases it provides protection in breaking up of relations ;this is my personal observation.

@ All

I'l answer you all people, and will clear my question too, i am much busy, so see u tomorrow.



Zoyee

aoa all.njoying ur discussion.before going for the question must say what the dower is?n whats its purpose?it has two aspects:
a-religious(woman:mark of honour,Man:religious obligtion)
b-worldly(give it any meaning n purpose)
not only Dower,today,every right is practised to the prejudice of others n every duty performed concietedly n out f selfish motives.this fact has make the Dower a problem.
butthis is not to be worried abt.the benificiary of this right is the weakest sector f society who cn hardly enforce any f her rights.the problem n the point f worry is that the sector f socity who possess powers n who is the repository of these rights n from whom these rights flow is the hardest to convince to be decent in enforcing its own rights n exercising its own powers....
Regards Noor

@ Nageen

Then may be da case is tht our personal xperiences have been much different. So we can leave it to more ppl views coz our one z obviously a limited one.
Now u said tht if anyone can afford it dere z nothhing bad in it. Then again my observation tells me wen i look cases other den my family tht quite often da dower fixed z way beyond the apparent means of the man. If we give it a more broader view we knw tht a marriage z basically a contract n as like any other contract the aggrieved party has the right of compensation but tht z decided on some criteria nd fr dower these r mentioned in islamic law. Now im nt against da concept of dower, tht has 2 b dere and it z dere fr a purpose. But tht has 2 meet certain criteria laid down nd i see lot ov ppl violating tht.

hehe.boht aasan he ye keh dena k jo afford kr skte hein wo dein .its not bad.i know its our sunnah to give dowry but u ppl try to see those girls who remain unmarried and their emotions got negative when they were not able to get married due to no availability of dowry.comments pass kr dena to boht aasan he
:shy

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166131]@ Nageen

Now u said tht if anyone can afford it dere z nothhing bad in it. Then again my observation tells me wen i look cases other den my family tht quite often da dower fixed z way beyond the apparent means of the man. [/QUOTE]

True, I agree.But then too girls aren't responsible for it cuz our society hasn't given the right even to educated girls to demand a specific dower.


[QUOTE=amna younas;166135]hehe.boht aasan he ye keh dena k jo afford kr skte hein wo dein .its not bad.i know its our sunnah to give dowry but u ppl try to see those girls who remain unmarried and their emotions got negative when they were not able to get married due to no availability of dowry.comments pass kr dena to boht aasan he
:shy[/QUOTE]

Ma'am my comments were about [B]'dower'[/B] not dowry.

Then i guess one should be making some effort to make the society realize tht women have 2 b taken on board fr negotiating a specific dower on case 2 case basis keeping in view the criteria discussed previously rather then trying to defend tht demanding unrealistically high dower will help women. Two wrongs dun make a right!!

@ Maam Amna

If u r trying 2 suggest tht if some poor cant afford to give dowry then may be those who can afford it shd also abandon it tu i guess its nt gonna happen even though it may b even my ideal. But real world affairs dun run as per our ideals. Different classes have always existed throughout human history even during Prophet hood classes were dere although dey had equal rights under pure Islamic law but as far dere personal life z concerned dere was always a clear difference. A class less society has been dere only in dreams of various philosophers but is yet 2 b achieved. So we have 2 accept da realities n den try 2 bring some good in them

[QUOTE=Zoyee;166056]

I want to discuss here regarding recent practices of dower(Haq Mahr), what do u think if it has become a problem?

What is its social impact? Which kind of social problems people are facing through dower? (in case of high amount)

And what factors are behind that practices? What do you think we people are following trends set by upper class or it is matter of show off?
I just want to know different views of you people, come foreword and give your view please, people from different culture and remote areas are preferred as well to give your opinion.

Thanks,

Zoyee[/QUOTE]

(You didn't question about 'dowry' but I can't talk without its reference.)
I don't think 'Dower' is such a big problem as 'Dowry' because a groom is never burnt in history for not paying a handsome amount for 'dower' as compared to less dowry.


What I observe is that,
1-At first the groom party makes demands for good dowry (what the others have to fulfil).Then ,in return, a large amount is demanded for dower from bride's side .
2- Like big dowry ,big dower is also considered a sign of status these days, so sometimes grooms also fix a large amount or property as dower to show off their status ,without demand froms other side.
4- As far as I think a big dower is mostly fixed as a 'Deferred Dower' which is never paid in successful marriages.
3- People consider it a means of security as S_Ranjha mentioned.But this is true that in some cases it really provides security to such relationships.



[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166141]Then i guess one should be making some effort to make the society realize tht women have 2 b taken on board fr negotiating a specific dower on case 2 case basis keeping in view the criteria discussed previously rather then trying to defend tht demanding unrealistically high dower will help women. Two wrongs dun make a right!!
[/QUOTE]

Sure.

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166141]
@ Maam Amna

If u r trying 2 suggest tht if some poor cant afford to give dowry then may be those who can afford it shd also abandon it tu i guess its nt gonna happen even though it may b even my ideal. [B]But real world affairs dun run as per our ideals. Different classes have always existed throughout human history even during Prophet hood classes were dere although dey had equal rights under pure Islamic law but as far dere personal life z concerned dere was always a clear difference. [/B]A class less society has been dere only in dreams of various philosophers but is yet 2 b achieved. So we have 2 accept da realities n den try 2 bring some good in them[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised to see that how flexible is your approach regarding 'Dowry'.
Why blaming class & society now? Why don't you say that there should be some effort to realize the people real problems of dowry.(cuz educated boys also don't want to get dowry,I guess. :shy)

@zoyee
 

[QUOTE=Zoyee;166056]Assalam-O-Alaikum to all!

I want to discuss here regarding recent practices of dower(Haq Mahr), what do u think if it has become a problem?

What is its social impact? Which kind of social problems people are facing through dower? (in case of high amount)

And what factors are behind that practices? What do you think we people are following trends set by upper class or it is matter of show off?
I just want to know different views of you people, come foreword and give your view please, people from different culture and remote areas are preferred as well to give your opinion.

Thanks,
[/QUOTE]
"Haq Mahr"z definetly becoming a problem,..bride' parents want to protect the future of thr daughter,thtswhy thy demand to write high amounts as"Haq Mahr"...thy think tht in ths way groom will not do anything wrong with thr lass.ths peoblem hs assumed worst shape in those communities and areas whr landlords r dominated.parents usually want to get a piece of land 4 thr grl,ths arises more problem...with the rapid progress in every field of lyf,women r also aware of thr rights and ve becum money-minded too,thy r taking everythin rationally,thy want to get security 4rm thr husband in the shape of high amount of "Haq Mahr"....according to the Muslim ulemas "sharai huq mahr z 32rs and 50 paisas"...ths concept z totally wrong.we cnt blame upper class 4 ths trend as lower class z not so unaware abt thr rights,..the dire need of the hour z to bring a change in mindset of the new generation.thy shuld understand ths point tht thr future depends upon the mental harmony and respect 4 each others,before or during marriage process huq mahr issue cn distrub ths mental harmony and after marriage lyf.ths z my point of view,u cn differ viv it
regards

[QUOTE=nageen;166189]

I'm surprised to see that how flexible is your approach regarding 'Dowry'.
Why blaming class & society now? Why don't you say that there should be some effort to realize the people real problems of dowry.(cuz educated boys also don't want to get dowry,I guess. :shy)[/QUOTE]

I dnt knw vot made u thnk tht my stance is diff on Dower & Dowry. I,ve been very clear tht in both the cases the role of society hasnt been gud. I wud like 2 comment here tht [B] in cases where the prob of dowry arises even dere 90% of da times its nt a educated boy showing resentment on less dowry but a Saasu maa i.e Mother in law (again a future version of U nt us) [/B]

I asked 4 a case 2 case determination of both dower n dowry. [B]My pt waz tht as we cant fix a specific amount of dower fr all the cases n tht differz on case 2 case basis likewise the dowry cant be fix either n tht ll differ too depending on various parametrz nd class z one ov those parameters along wid otherz
[/B]

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166211] [B] in cases where the prob of dowry arises even dere 90% of da times its nt a educated boy showing resentment on less dowry but a Saasu maa i.e Mother in law (again a future version of U nt us)
[/B][/QUOTE]


Ok, but we can't blame only Saasu maa in this scenario, mama's boys should also take some responsibility for the matters directly related to them.

@Nageen..absolutly right
 

[QUOTE=nageen;166215]Ok, but we can't blame only Saasu maa in this scenario, mama's boys should also take some responsibility for the matters directly related to them.[/QUOTE]

Hello all,
i totally agree with Nageen's point ov view.

if boyz can pursuade their parents about marriying a girl of their choice or thier love.then how is it possible that they don't have any authority or influnce regrding this matter.

the truth is that they only want it to happen.they also want to take dowry
but when it comes to HAQ Mehr their comes Shariya.(they don't know even the true Sunna).
I personally have witnessed many marriages in which Groom's family takes heaps of or should i say trucks of dowry but at Nikkah's time they demand that Haq Mehr should be according to Shariya which is according to them
is equal to the price of 10kg Wheat at the time of Wedding.
Is it Justice?I would call it a brutal and ignorant act.

[B]Rules of Dower (Ahkam mahr)[/B]

Dower means the amount of consideration that is paid by the husband to the wife after Marriage (nikah) with her. Dower is one of the conditions of validity of nikah. This is the view of the Ahnaf. Non payment of dower is against the Qur'anic verses. Its wujub is proved by the Holy Qur’an and Sunnah. Allah Almighty says: “And give the women (on marriage) their dower as an obligation”. Al-Quran 4:4.
[B]
Kinds of Dower according to quantity[/B]

[B]1. Agreed upon Dower (Mahr Musamma)[/B]

Mahr Musamma is that dower on which both the parties have agreed upon as fixed between them. If it is cash then it will be the local coin and if it is ornament or property then it must be specified. The payment of dower becomes obligatory at the time of nikah or after the nikah.

[B]2. The Minimum Dower (Mahr Adna)[/B]

In this kind of dower no quantity is fixed. If man is rich he may give piles of wealth. However many ahadith are available giving the minimum limit of dower amount.

According to a report of Imam Bukhari the Messenger of Allah said to a person: enter into a marriage (nikah), contract even if for a consideration of a dower of an iron finger ring.

According to a report of Imam Muslim, the dower of the wives of the Messenger of Allah had been 12.5 Auqiyah. Abu Hurayrah reported that during the period of the Messenger of Allah the quantity of dower fixed was 10 Auqiyah. In the modern period the market value of ten auqiya can be known very conveniently.

[B]3. The like dower (Mahr Mithl)[/B]

Mahr Mithl is that quantity which is fixed for other females as their dower in the family of the woman. Need to do so is felt where at the time of contract of marriage (nikah) nothing was settled between the parties about the dower or the payment of dower was settled but amount of dower was not fixed or determined by the parties for any reason whatsoever.

[B]Kinds of Dower (Mahr) with regard to the period[/B]

With regard to the period when the dower is to be paid by the husband to the wife there are two kinds of dower.
[LIST=1][*][B]Prompt dower (mahr mu`ajjal):[/B] It is that dower regarding the payment of which parties have agreed that it shall be paid promptly.[*][B]Deferred dower (mahr mu'ajjal):[/B] It is that dower regarding which there had been agreement between the parties that it shall be paid after some period.[/LIST][B]Addition or reduction in the quantity of settled dower[/B]

Both the husband and the wife have the right to add or reduce the settled amount or quantity of dower by mutual consent. Where a husband intends to increase the amount agreed to by him to be paid as dower amount, he has the right to do so. Likewise, where a wife intends to reduce the amount payable to him as dower amount she has the right to do so. She has the right even to forego the whole quantity of her dower.

The Holy Qur’an says: "But if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you take it and enjoy it with right good cheer."

There are three circumstances which make the payment of dower obligatory:

(1) When after entering into the contract of marriage (nikah) the spouses (zaujayn) had cohabited it becomes obligatory upon the husband to make full payment of the dower amount.

(2) When after entering into contract of marriage (nikah) the husband died. The widow shall get her dower amount before the distribution of the estate left behind by the deceased husband. It is not necessary that the spouses had cohabited before the death of the husband. To distribute the estate of the deceased husband before making payment of the dower debt to the widow is not permissible.

(3) According to Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, payment of dower become certain where the spouses (zaujayn) had full privacy and isolation without any apprehension of arrival in their apartment of anyone else. It is called valid retirement (Khalwat Sahihah). In such a circumstance other persons do not know about cohabitation. However, if the door is closed in such a manner that coming or going in the private room is possible then such a situation is not called Valid retirement (Khalwat Sahihah).

On valid retirement (Khalwat Sahihah), the payment of dower becomes obligatory upon the husband.

[QUOTE]according to the Muslim ulemas "sharai huq mahr z 32rs and 50 paisas"...ths concept z totally wrong.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

‘Aishah was once asked how much dower the Prophet gave his wives. She replied that it was 12 auqiyah and 1 nash (one nash being equal to half an
auqiyah, that is, about 500 dirhams). This was the only dower of the Prophet Muhammad for his wives. “But,” she added, ‘Umm Habiba’s dower consisted of 4000 dirhams, this sum having been fixed by the Christian King of Abyssinia, Najashi, who had performed this marriage by proxy.”

10 Auqiyah and 1 Nash = 500 Dirham

[FONT=Palatino Linotype][SIZE=3]The standard weight of dirham, according to the doctors of lslamic Shari'ah, is equal to fifty-five grains of barley and ten dirhams are equivalent in weight to seven mithqals of gold. Doctors of law unanimously agree with the weight given by Ibn Khaldun. [/SIZE][/FONT]

1 Dirham = 55 grains of barley
1 mithqal = 4.25 grams
10 Dirham = 7 mithqal or 29.75 grams of pure gold
500 Dirham = 1487.5 grams of pure gold
1487.5 grams = 127.531 tola of pure gold

And you all know the current rate of gold in the market. :)

[QUOTE]posted By Bunko
According to my knowledge, I think Dower is not a problem but a precaution against injustice to women. In contemporary world, Few groups criticize high dower issue and consider it as a burden and injustice to man to pay dower. But if we look into our Past.During the reign of Khulfa-I-Rashdeen, When Hazrat Umar (R.A) decided in meeting to cap the limit of dower, at that point, Few women present in that meeting, criticize Hazrat Umar (R.A) and said, " Who You are decide to Cap limits of Dower, even When Allah and His Rasool (PBUH) never talked about any such thing." At that point Hazrat Umer (R.A) took his decision back and give decree not to cap the limit of dower
[/QUOTE]@ Bunko
You are right about Hazrat Umar (R.A) example, but the thing which i want to clear here that I have enough knowledge about Shariah perspective about practices of [I]Mahr[/I] (dower)

[COLOR=Purple][B]Proof that the Mahr is Obligatory[/B][/COLOR]

Allah says in the Qur'an:

{And give the women their dower with a good heart...} An-Nisaa:4

[B][COLOR=Purple]The Minimum Amount of the Dowry[/COLOR][/B]

The minimum dowry is ten dirham (somewhere around ten dollars or the price of a goat today). This is based on the hadith:

[COLOR=Purple] "La mahra aqallu min 'asharati dirham."
"There is no mahr less then ten dirhams."[/COLOR]

While Ibn Hajr found this hadith to be "hassan", most other scholars of hadith judged it as weak. Also, it is in contradiction to the hadith about the iron ring - which would not have been worth that amount.

In the hadeeth of ‘Uqbah ibn ‘Aamir radiallaahu ‘anhu, the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “The best dowry is that which is easy.” This was narrated by Abu Daawood and al-Haakim who authenticated it. And once a woman offered herself to the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam for marriage. However, one of his Companions desired to marry her, so the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said [regarding the mahr]: “Bring something, even if it be an iron ring.” So when he could not find even this, the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam married them for the dower that the man would teach whatever of the Qur’aan he knew to her.

Your view is right but i wanted here to point out social problems created by Dower in some cases. As I clear in my questions that has dower become a problem?? So it indicates that what about our recent practices? How we people are taking it?Is it easy in recent practices or it has become a status symbol or matter of show off in case of high amount?

[COLOR=Purple][B]@ All
Respected members!![/B][/COLOR]
Dowery is something different please dont mix dower with dowery thats why i cleared it with Arabic terminology (Haqq Mahr)

And one more thing which i wanted to say that some people are of the view that dower is not cause or reason of late marriages. I personally observed an engagement where it created problem at the end. And that engagement broke only because of high demand of dower by girls family. So cases vary area to area and family to family....but we cannot generalize one example to all.

In addition to that purpose of my question requires to point out different cases through which we know that if its creating a problem then what are the factors behind it?, ur experiences regarding dower, your observations etc.Then at the end i'l be conclude your views.
[B]
[COLOR=Purple]Its my humble request to all of you members that come foreword and please stick to the topic dowry is another big discussion.I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings here but i want to be more specific to my query.
[/COLOR][/B]
Regards,
Zoyee

@ Last Island

[B][COLOR=Purple]
Thanks for your views and opinion regarding this topic i am greatful to you but please add more if you have any observation regarding social practices of dower (Mahr) in our society.[/COLOR][/B]


Thanks,
Regards,

Zoyee

[QUOTE]1 Dirham = 55 grains of barley
1 mithqal = 4.25 grams
10 Dirham = 7 mithqal or 29.75 grams of pure gold
500 Dirham = 1487.5 grams of pure gold
[B]1487.5 grams = 127.531 tola of pure gold[/B][/QUOTE]

127.531 (35000 Rs.)=44,63585 Rupees
My Goodness !:blink

@ Last Island
You always rock Ma'am. Thanks a lot.:pipe:pipe

[B][COLOR="Purple"]@ All


[B]When you people talk about Sharah'i Haqq Mahr then see currency conversion also how much it is in recent scenario :)[/B]



Regards,
Zoyee,[/COLOR][/B]

@ Last island n all others

Thanx 4 sharing the technical info regarding the upper limit of dower. I too read a lot over tht nd found lot of different versions by eminent scholars but as i couldnt found any agreement so i still consider it open. BTW I doubt tht conversion in spite of it being verified by doctors of Law(Im nt one but still has the right to disagree, for me its nt tht plain nd involves much more). But the question z nt tht. I never opposed 10 millionz fixed in the marriage o my czn on the basis of Shariah tht it crosses any upper limit coz i never found any upper limit.

The question as highlighted time n again by originator of thread z regarding the effects of present practices of demanding high dower. Has the practice serve any good or just created problems. Here my stance is tht no it has nt serve produce any goods. The aim of dower as interpreted by pure Islamic law is the compensation to wife fr cohabitation rights tht way it becomes obligatory only after marriage has been consummated(few exceptionz r dere). The other side of it tht we usually refer to is the sense of security to the women about the durability of the relation nd compensation 2 women in case of unilateral dissolution of marriage(Nd i wonder it it z dere in pure Islamic law coz if it was the sole purpose then dere shd be no concept of promt dower).

Now even if accepted tht it serves as a tool providing women some sort of security, i maintain tht making it unrealistically high nd beyond apparent means of man does not serve any good. Im not a good practicing muslim but as far as i,ve understood Islam, 2 me Islam other then social evils mainly puts checks on a man'z conscience nd no physically or financial checks. Nd the biggest protection tht Islam provides is when it says tht "Divorce is the worse permissible thing in the eyes of Allah" nd again it s enforced on conscience of a man.
So to cut it short i dnt see unrealistically high dower as a remedy but as a problem in some cases. This z as i think it nd ll continue to in spite tht i myself may end up wid a dower ending in millions(But only coz i may be qualified fr tht) but in general i contradict the notion tht it serves any good.

Thanks 2 all fr dere valuables comment nd see u ppl aftr da weekend.

regards

[B]@ Zoyee[/B]

Sorry ,we got deviated a bit but I think both points went side by side as, Dower vs Dowry, not mingled at all and I don't think it's bad (as I consider the both interdependent here in our society.)

I also tried to clear that how dowry influences dower:

[QUOTE=nageen;166189](You didn't question about 'dowry' but I can't talk without its reference.)
I don't think 'Dower' is such a big problem as 'Dowry' because a groom is never burnt in history for not paying a handsome amount for 'dower' as compared to less dowry.


What I observe is that,
1-[B]At first the groom party makes demands for good dowry (what the others have to fulfil).Then ,in return, a large amount is demanded for dower from bride's side .[/B]
2- L[B]ike big dowry ,big dower is also considered a sign of status these days, so sometimes grooms also fix a large amount or property as dower to show off their status ,without demand froms other side.[/B]
4- As far as I think a big dower is mostly fixed as a 'Deferred Dower' which is never paid in successful marriages.
3- People consider it a means of security as S_Ranjha mentioned.But this is true that in some cases it really provides security to such relationships.
[/QUOTE]


but we also raised the issue like:

[QUOTE]But then too girls aren't responsible for it cuz our society hasn't given the right even to educated girls to demand a specific dower.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Then i guess one should be making some effort to make the society realize tht women have 2 b taken on board fr negotiating a specific dower on case 2 case basis keeping in view the criteria discussed previously rather then trying to defend tht demanding unrealistically high dower will help women. Two wrongs dun make a right!![/QUOTE]

I'd like to add that in a case bride's guardians demanded to fix 20,00,000 Rs. (2 lacs) for Dower but it was fixed only 20,000 Rs.(twenty thousand rupees) by the groom. Then some months later bride's guardians changed the figure from twenty thousands to 2 lacs in the Nikah Nama.


[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166239]@ Last island n all others

Now even if accepted tht it serves as a tool providing women some sort of security, i maintain tht making it unrealistically high nd beyond apparent means of man does not serve any good. Im not a good practicing muslim but as far as i,ve understood Islam, 2 me Islam other then social evils mainly puts checks on a man'z conscience nd no physically or financial checks. Nd the biggest protection tht Islam provides is when it says tht "Divorce is the worse permissible thing in the eyes of Allah" nd again it s enforced on conscience of a man.
regards[/QUOTE]

I agree with him.Islam made rules for the ease of man , so if someone can't pay good dower shouldn't be stressed ,because if it is fixed at the time but not paid later on then what's the use.

[QUOTE]I never opposed 10 millionz fixed in the marriage o my czn on the basis of Shariah tht it crosses any upper limit coz i never found any upper limit.[/QUOTE]Because there is no upper limit. Conversion is given for those who talk about so called "sharai haq meher". Sharai is a law of Shara or something fixed by Sahra. Dower must not be less than 10 dirham but there is no upper limit defined. So in Islam, there is no concept of Sharai fixed Haq meher.

Problems sprouted when people started associating dower with divorce. Dower by no means stands for "security". Prompt dower should be paid immediately after Nikah and Deferred is payable at death or dissolution of marriage. It has nothing to do with divorce. Durability of relationship solely lies on trust and mutual love; if its not there, nothing can save the relationship from falling apart.

For boys, it is an obligation. Mostly on the wedding night, husband kinda plea to his wife "Apna haq meher maaf ker do". He has NO RIGHT to make such request.He is bound to pay Prompt dower before touching his wife.

Girls! You need to understand the real meaning of dower. You have the right to demand according to your social position but as Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) said, "The best amount of mahr is that which can be [I]paid easily", [/I]make sure the dower remains a gift and must not become a burden for your future husband.

Tain tain fish fish?????:sad: Dower py tu consensus devolop ho gaya. I wish our politicians had been ths gud. Shd we move 2 dowry now right from here if the originator of thread allows.

@ Madam Last Island

Kindly enlighten us regarding the upper n lower limits of dowry as per Islamic rules so we can move forward:shy

@ Last_Island;

[QUOTE]For boys, it is an obligation. Mostly on the wedding night, husband kinda plea to his wife "Apna haq meher maaf ker do". He has NO RIGHT to make such request.[U]He is bound to pay Prompt dower before touching his wife.[/U][/QUOTE]

According to my knowledge, Prompt dower is only payable when it is demanded by wife. And than it becomes obligatory on husband to pay otherwise distinct consequences can be impose on husband by wife. But i have not gone through from any book or source that says before touching wife Prompt is necessary to pay. Prompt means immediately, and it become obligatory to pay in a jeffy, when wife declared it before consummation or after. It is not necessary to pay prompt before consummation or touching wife, if wife is not declared it.


FEEAMANALLAH,

@bunko
lemme help u understand the topic
there r two types of Dower;
Proper n Spesific dower.
Spesific Dower has two secondary kinds;Prompt n Deffered.now prompt is the type w/h become oligatory on husband to pay the moment the wife demands it even before touching her,n if he refuses to pay ,women has all rights to deny performance of marital obligations.
Wife with her own free will can remit part or whole dower.n last important point the payment of dower is compulory for husband.the types of dower just make provisions for the mode of payment,n non spesification f type doesn t effect her right.
Proper dower is that type in which the amount nmode is not specified n this is in particular this type that is the basis of this discussion.some school of islamic law imposes limit n some not.
Regards

Valuable discussion on Haqq Meher is as follows:

[url]http://www.mypak.tv/pakistan-news-videos/205-50-min-geo-news/17614-50-minute-2nd-april-2010[/url]


Regards,

dowery is not allowed in islam nither its prohibted....ppl use say that Nabi (S.A.W) himself gave dower to his daughter Fatima(R.A) which is not right as Ali (R.A) is like brother to Hazrat Muhhamad (S.A.W) he asked Hazrat Ali(R.A) wat u have for marrige he said nothind xcept a ZIRA he said sold that n thn came to me...n when got bak t him with some dirahams(didnt remember xact amount) he asked him to buy a Chaki(flour mill) n some crokery for kitchen na bed... remaining amount he said this would b dower...so no acctually dowery was paid by him hazrat Ali(R.A) himself bought everything t start new life.
i didnt find any other xample from prophet's companions(R.A) that they gv or take dowery....may b this my lack of knowldge

[B][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Purple"]CJ takes notice of Geo report on ‘Haq Mehr’ case[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Geo News, Wednesday, March 03, 2010 [/B]

PESHAWAR: Chief Justice of Pakistan Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry Wednesday took notice of a report aired by Geo News about an elderly woman, who has been waiting for the court’s verdict on her application about recovery of ‘Haq Mehr’ for the last 40 years.

It may be mentioned here that Geo News had also aired a report about the 70-year-old Saeeda Sultan.

Earlier in the day, Saeeda Sultan came to the Chief Justice court and remained there till the last case.

The woman rose on her seat soon after the court hearing ended. She told the Chief Justice that she has been awaiting to get justice from the courts for 40 years.

Taking notice of her plea, the Chief Justice asked the woman to appear before the court with her counsel.

Later, speaking to Geo, Saeeda Sultan hoped that the court would deliver quick justice about her case.


[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="3"]In Shujabad, a groom and 11 of his relatives were arrested on haq mehr issue[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B].

Haq mehr is an important ingredient of the nikah, as it is the welfare for the woman whether she stays married or divorces.

Recently, in Shujabad, a groom and 11 of his relatives were arrested on haq mehr issue.

The issue was reported in the area of Kacha Paka, after the Barat arrived from Bahawalpur. The dispute arose during the nikah ceremony on the gold brought by the groom's family. The bride's family had actually demanded six tolas of gold while the groom's family had brought only four tolas of gold. During the dispute, the groom was also beaten by the relatives of the bride and the bride's relative took the entire barat hostage. The police arrived on the scene and arrested 12 baratis, including the groom.

The bride's relatives demanded the dowry that they had given and also demanded the money they had spent on the arrangements of the function.

But interestingly this is only one side of the story. According to beepers of the bride's family, the groom had demanded a motorcycle in the dowry. The demand for the bike was accepted. However; when the groom came for the wedding ceremony he demanded a new Honda. According to the news channel, the two sides clashed on this.

The groom maintained that they had fought over the haq mehr issue, which is the dower that the groom gives to his at the time of the marriage. The groom claimed that he had brought four gold bangles but was asked by the bride's family to write all four in the haq mehr, which he refused and said that he would only give two. Later, the groom also stated that he and the bride were involved with each other, and because of this incident between their families the wedding was called off. Apparently, this statement was made as an afterthought to malign the girl's name, only to avenge the insult that he and his family had faced. If this had been true, he would have done what another groom in a small town of Punjab had done. In that incident, the two families clashed on the use of firecrackers. And, unlike the Shujabad groom, this groom didn't indulge in the fist, but escaped with his betrothed in a rickshaw.

Levity aside, the above is an extremely serious matter, where sometimes the consequences are far worse than the two families fighting and being jailed. More often than not, the groom's family sends a long list of things they want in exchange for marrying the girl. Usually the items on the list are not for the bride who is not even allowed to touch her own dowry, as this automatically becomes the property of her in-laws.

[B][COLOR="Purple"]Source: [url]http://thenews.com.pk/newsmag/mag/detail_article.asp?id=447&magId=1[/url]
[/COLOR][/B]

[QUOTE]Origionally posted by [B]sana krn[/B] dowery is not allowed in islam nither its prohibted...i didnt find any other xample from prophet's companions(R.A) that they gv or take dowery....may b this my lack of knowldge [/QUOTE]

Thanks for your views but the topic is more relevant to dower (Haqq Mehr) not dowry.I want from you people:

[B][COLOR="Purple"][B][LIST=1][*][B]To point out any case either dower has become any issue because of its low or high amount?
[*]To point any case in which girl didn't received dower yet.

[*]What do you think it should be specified on bride's wish or according to financial position of groom only?

[*]If it is specified according to groom's financial status then why its being ignored in most of cases even groom can afford it? why its confined to a written document only?

[*]What do you think that Dower amount should be as high as expenses of marriage in order to give women protection and importance? Outcome of this strategy can be like to get marriage with simplicity and avoid pretty much expenses.

[*]What social or any legal (if possible) measures should be taken for those people who specified dower but didn't pay yet even after Divorce??

[*]Why people used to take Dower as dowry money? (Example of Shujabad incident, mentioned above)[/LIST][/B][/COLOR]

[COLOR="Purple"]Regards,[/B][/COLOR][/B]

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The Mahr (Dowry)[/COLOR]



To understand the concept of the mahr, its obligatory nature and its relationship to the marriage contract itself.


To understand the discussion concerning the minimum and maximum amounts for the dowry.


To understand when the woman is entitled to all of her dowry, half of it or none of it.
Introduction

The mahr (dowry) is something that is paid by the man to his wife. It is paid to the wife and to her only as an honor and a respect given to her and to show that he has a serious desire to marry her and is not simply entering into the marriage contract without any sense of responsibility and obligation or effort on his part.

It has been referred to my many names in the texts and the books of fiqh:
Term Root Meaning
An-Nihla Gift
Al-Fareedha Prescribed amount or obligation
Al-Hibaa' Gift or present
Al-Ajr Payment or compensation
Al-'Uqr Indemnity
Al-'Alaa'iq Precious things, provision
As-Sadaqa Sincere gift or charity
At-Tawl Ability
An-Nikah Marriage

On of the more common names for it is Al-Sadaaq which comes from the word sidq meaning honesty or sincerity. As-San'aani (Book: Subul As-Salaam) explains its significance: "It indicates the sincerity of the husband's desire for his wife. In the religious laws before us the dowry used to go to the guardians."
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]Proof that the Mahr is Obligatory[/COLOR]

Allah says in the Qur'an:

{Wa aatoo an-nisaa'a saduqaatihinna nihlatan...}
[COLOR="YellowGreen"] {And give the women their dowries with a good heart...} An-Nisaa:4[/COLOR]

This verse is addressed to either the husbands or the guardians. It is addressed to the husbands because it is their responsibility to pay the dowry. It could also be addressed to the guardians, not because they have to pay the dowry, but because in pre-Islamic jahiliya (and in much of today's "post-Islamic" jahiliya), they used to take the dowry of the women and not give it to them. This verse shows that the dowry must be given to the women and not kept by the guardians. The following verses also shows the obligatory nature of paying the dowry to the women:

{...Fa ma istamta'tum bihi minhunn fa aatoohunna ujoorahunna fareedha...}
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]{...So for that pleasure which you have enjoyed from them, give them their prescribed compensation..} An-Nisaa:24
[/COLOR]
{...Wa uhilla lakum ma waraa'a dhalikum an tabtaghoo bi amwaalikum...}
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]{...All others have been made lawful for you provided you seek (them in marriage) with your property...} An-Nisaa:24[/COLOR]

Regarding on of the Companions who was poor and wished to marry, the Prophet (sas) said to him:

"Iltamis wa lau khaatiman min hadeed..."
"Search for something, even if it is just a ring made from iron." Bukhari & Muslim
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Is the Dowry a Part of the Marriage Contract?[/COLOR]

The above has established that the dowry is obligatory. Now the question arises as to whether or not it (i.e., its specfication and agreement on its amount) is one of the arkaan or the shuroot of the marriage contract. In other words, is it valid to have a marriage contrct in which the dowry is not stated? Apparently, the dowryis the right of the wife but does not form part of the marriage contract itself. This is based on the following clear verse in the Qurr'an in which divorce is mentioned in a case where no dowry was agreed upon. Obviously, there can be no divorce if there was no marriage in the first place.

{La junaha 'alaikum in tallaqtum an-nisaa'a ma lam tamassoohunna au tafridhoo lahunna fareedha wa matti'oohunna 'alaa al-moosi'i qadarohu wa 'alaa al-muqtiri qadaruhu mataa'an bi al-ma'roofi haqqan 'alaa al-muhsineen.}
[COLOR="Black"]{There is no sin upon you if you divorce women before touching them or assigning for them a dowry. And give them provision - upon the wealthy what is appropriate and upon he of limited resources what is appropriate - a provision based on the best (the "known"), an obligation upon the doers of good.} Al-Baqarah:236[/COLOR]

This does not mean that it is recommended or preferable not to mention the dowry at the time of the marriage contract. Ibn Taimia, for example, mentions that the amount of the mahr should be mentioned at the time of the marriage in order to eliminate the chance for dispute later. This part of his argument should be extremely clear and obvious to all. His opinion was that the dowry is a shart or rukn of the marriage, in agreement with the Maliki school, as stated earlier. That seems to be the weaker of the opinions, however. In short, there are three distinct cases:

1. A case where the parties agree not to pay any dowry. This is not permissible and the contract is either valid wth the man being forced to pay an appropriate dowry, or it is completely invalid (the Maliki opinion).
2. A case where the dowry is mentioned and agreed upon at the time of the marriage contract. This is clearly the best approach and is agreed upon by all as the most complete and perfect form. The main benefit of this approach is that it greatly reduces the possibility of dispute in the future.
3. A case where no dowry is mentioned or agreed upon at the time of the contract. This contract is sound and valid and the woman is entitled to the dowry that they agree upon later. If they don't specifically agree on a dowry, then she is entitled to "mahru al-mithl" which means: "the dowry which is given to women similar to her."
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
The Maximum and Minimum Amount of the Dowry[/COLOR]

There are no authentic hadith or reports explicitly stating a minimum or maximum amount of dowry. All hadith which explicitly state such things are weak narrations. However, some scholars have relied on implicit conclusions from specific reports to determine an answer to the question of there being a minimum or maximum.

There is no maximum limit for the dowry. Allah described the dowry in the Qur'an with the following words:

{Wa in aradtum istibdaala zaujin makaana zaujin wa aataitum ihdaahunna qintaaran falaa ta'khudhoo minhu shai'an. A ta'khudhoonaha buhtaanan wa ithman mubeenan?}
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]{And if you wish to replace a wife with another and you have given one of them a heap of gold, do not take anything from it. Would you take it as a fraud and a clear sin?} An-Nisaa:20
[/COLOR]
The word qintaar means a very large amount of gold and if it is permissible to give such as mahr, this shows that there is no maximum limit to the amount one may give as mahr.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The Story of Umar Intending to Limit Dowries[/COLOR]

The famous and widely heard story about Umar ibn Al-Khattab attempting to prohibit large dowries from the minbar and being corrected by one of the women Companions with the above verse is a weak hadith which has no validity. What is authentic is that Umar advised people not to be excessive in dowries, but not that he prohibited people from agreeing among themselves on dowries of any amount.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The Minimum Amount of the Dowry[/COLOR]

There are five distinct opinions concerning the minimum amount required for something to be considered acceptable as a dowry.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The First Opinion[/COLOR]

The minimum dowry is ten dirham (somewhere around ten dollars or the price of a goat today). This is based on the hadith:

"La mahra aqallu min 'asharati dirham."
"There is no mahr less then ten dirhams."

While Ibn Hajr found this hadith to be "hassan", most other scholars of hadith judged it as weak. Also, it is in contradiction to the hadith cited earlier about the iron ring - which would not have been worth that amount.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The Second Opinion[/COLOR]

According to the Malikis, the minimum required for a dowry is three dirhams. It must be something legal according to the shari'a which can be handed over to the wife. It must be a specified amount. There argument, also, is that in their school, this is the minimum amount for which the thief gets the punishment of cutting. They also cite the verse:

{[COLOR="Black"]Wa man lam yastiti' minkum taulan an yankiha al-muhsanaati al-mu'minaati fa min ma malakat aymaanukum min fatayaatikum al-mu'minaat...}
{And whoever of you does not have the means to wed free believing women, so from the believing women that your right hands possess...} An-Nisaa:25[/COLOR]

Their argument is that at-taul means wealth and one who does not have three dirhams is not considered as possession any wealth. However, there are other interpretations about what the word means in this verse.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The Third Opinion[/COLOR]

This opinion states that anything that can be called "wealth" (maal) and is accepted by the parties is permissible as the dowry. In essence, this opinion states that there is no minimum for the dowry. This is the opinion of the Shafi'is, Hanbalis, Dhahiris, Ibn Wahb of the Malikis, Al-Hassan Al-Basri and others. It is supported by the verse:

{...Wa uhilla lakum ma waraa'a dhalikum an tabtaghoo bi amwaalikum...}
{...All others have been made lawful for you provided you seek (them in marriage) with your property...} An-Nisaa:24

T[COLOR="YellowGreen"]he Fourth Opinion[/COLOR]

Anything which can be called shai'an (a "thing") is acceptable as dowry. This is the opinion of Ibn Hazm and is based on the first part of the hadith about the ring of iron where the Prophet (sas) said:

"Iltamis shai'an. Qaala ma ajidu shai'an. Qaala: "Iltamis wa lau khaatiman min hadeed..."
"Search for something." He said: I have nothing. He (sas) said: "Search for something, even if it is just a ring made from iron." Bukhari & Muslim

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]The Fifth Opinion[/COLOR]

Anything which has value, regardless of whether it be something material or something non-material, is acceptable as dowry. According to Ibn Al-Qayyim, this is the strongest opinion. In fact, it seems to be the only opinion which takes into consideration all of the different hadith related to the subject. For example, Umm Sulaim accepted Abu Talha's embracing of Islam as her mahr. On another occasion, the Prophet (sas) acceepted as dowry what a person knew of the Qur'an saying:

"Idh-hab faqad mallaktukahaa bima ma'aka min al-qur'an"
"Go, for I have put her under your charge with what you have of the Qur'an." Bukhari & Muslim

In other words, his mahr was to teach the woman what he knew of the Qur'an.














excerpted from sultan.org

[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]@ niazikhan[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Dear you have share useful information but let me clear few things,

useful information but let me clear few things,
[/FONT][/SIZE]
[QUOTE]The mahr (dowry) is something that is paid by the man to his [/QUOTE]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Most of people used the dowry for Haqq Mahr rather than Dower even one of our Teachers at M.phil level. Its wrong for Haqq Mahr because dowry means Jahez, actual is dower.
You have explained Islamic point of view its so clear and informative, few other members have been discussed it earlier but its my request to check my questions again and please try to point out social aspect regarding dower i am well aware of islamic point of view regarding Haqq Mahr.Try to discuss it according to our recent practices.Hope you would 'nt mind i just wanted to cclear for all the participants.
[B][COLOR="Purple"]
@ All[/COLOR][/B][/FONT]

[FONT="Times New Roman"]Its my humble request to all respected members that please try to point out social practices regarding dower, any case which rose problems of Haqq Meher, Your experiences, observations, social practices of your area 'l be highly welcome.


Regards,[/FONT][/SIZE]