LB Law: Will it solve the problems of districts?
 

kindly share your VIEWS on upcoming local body law and it's effects on management and development of districts..
The new LG law is not out yet, but this much is certain that elections of local bodies will be held, the nazims will be concerned with development only, [B]DCO[/B] would become executive head of the district. The tehsil nazim will be finished and [B]AC[/B] 'd run the tehsil government. The union councils will function much as they did in 1979.....

Dear
It would be great if you discuss some of the salient features of the bills being discussed about new LG system as you seem to have good understanding of the issue.
Regards

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168144]kindly share your VIEWS on upcoming local body law and it's effects on management and development of districts..
The new LG law is not out yet, but this much is certain that elections of local bodies will be held, the nazims will be concerned with development only, [B]DCO[/B] would become executive head of the district. The tehsil nazim will be finished and [B]AC[/B] 'd run the tehsil government. The union councils will function much as they did in 1979.....[/QUOTE]

I think government is taking right steps by empowering the civil servants in administrative spheres. Musharaf's regime had weakened DMG(i don't know what logic they had ?), But it didn't realized that DMG is central pivot of command, so weakening the DC was just like weakening CE of distract..... And any firm without powerful CE can't function...

I am very much optimistic about this new LAW

[QUOTE=ayesha_riaz;168147]I think government is taking right steps by empowering the civil servants in administrative spheres. Musharaf's regime had weakened DMG(i don't know what logic they had ?), But it didn't realized that DMG is central pivot of command, so weakening the DC was just like weakening CE of distract..... And any firm without powerful CE can't function...

I am very much optimistic about this new LAW[/QUOTE]

DOnt consider the new set-up as final one. Administrators are not going to be there for ever.Elections will be there in 6 months on party basis and nazims will comeback.
I disagree with you that empowering civil service(read DMG) without any civilian checks and balances is going to yeild positive results. Empowering DMG (because we like it) is not the answer. I think the new local govt system will ensure the effectiveness of all parties i.e DCOs, DPOs and Nazims. Giving all the powers to DC will create an atmosphere of resentment in other echelons of civil service as well. So there should be balance of powers. We shouldnt make DCs the Pharaohs of districts altogether.
We cannot and should not subjugate Police to DMG. BOth should be answerable to elected members of district govt.
WE can make the district govt more effective by elections on party basis and allocating more funds to local govt.

Military bureaucracy has always remained hostile to civil bureaucracy be it CSS officer, PCS officer or ISI. Reason being they can't bear their power and prestige on the one hand they can't afford the strong bond of civil servants with political governments specially provincial governments. Each military dictator has gave his best try to clip the powers, and authorities of civil servants. By doing this, they manage to create a vacuum in the administration and find chance to micro manage the people through these Nazimz or basic democrats. This was an attack on the civil service which resulted into clashes among the district governments, civil servants and provincial governments. District government powers had to be tricked down through provincial government but military dictator didn't let it happen. What he did was to by pass the provincial government in order to snatch the power from provinces and from civil servants. They evaded one level from this government administration hierarchy and made it flat. Center controlled directly the districts, tahsils, and UCs. In this mess they could not draw a clear demarcation in the new system which resulted into overlapping functions and authorities. Financial distribution ambiguity and other such drawbacks. System worked efficiently only in Karachi due to the support from a very strong, aggressive and coercive party MQM. MQM benefited a lot from this system by manipulating budgets, funds, jobs and plot distributions. (I own Karachi and can sell it). This slogan was famous due to commercialization of government property on very relaxed and unfair methods. A clash erupted when there came a resistance in that plot selling, plots/buildings/and other immovable properties of the government acquisition or encroachment from some factions like Baloch, Pashtun and Sindhi. MQM found that resistance a very unwanted halt in its motives of controlling government property. MQM could not encroach those areas and indulged into blame game of land mafias, smugglers, drug sellers, underworld terrorist etc. City Nazim and his allied forces tried their best to suppress those parties, and factions which created hindrances in their malafide intentions of eating up the state property. That resulted into target killings and some times break up in the coalition forces in the government.
Despite these restraints MQM made a lot from this city Nazim position. That is why the only opposition to local government abolishing system came from MQM. They can't even imagine to live without this Nazim system.


Infact system was not bad. Only the intentions of Army and MQM were malafide. Had they honestly intended to bring a positive change in the country and had they adopted proper procedure to implement it there would have been constructive results.


Members are invited to compare 1979 system and current system and suggest for coming.

Hi

Wasn't it good that the power was at the door step of the commoners.Now it is again in the haughty hands of SAHIB-BAHADU janab COMMSSIONER !A system may have flaws but it is no remedy to mark a cross on just in this fashion...This seems to me a game.A Power game..... Instead of rectifying the faults, the Govt has renounce the whole system.....it is a grave matter and it shows the power greed of the establishment...... When the people would be empowered?

It seems a vicious circle of experminting going on in pakistan. The common man is the victim !
It took too much effort to understand the Nazim sytsem by the ppl. and now a new system is being cooked:ohmy: It will take another 5/6 years to understand the new system and by that time this system will also be shelved by the then government to make one that suit their needs.
Somebody rightly said that pakistan is a graveyard of dead projects !

aoa all respected members.a hot issue under discussion!
well ansewr me dear members for the following things first:
a-if new LG law would changed anything for the common?
b-like nazims,CSPs did misused thier powers,is there any provision in the new law to adress these wrongs?
c-why at all the annled law(LG sys 2001)cancelled the then LG sys?
d-n why exactly the old LG sys is restored again?

i agree w/ most of the participants in the discussions who are rather sceptical about this change.but dear i oppose this change not because the previous was laid down by a wrong person(every wrong person can still do some right), but because the old law is restored w/ all its discrepencies.law givers should have thought about it.Division f power is not the all,there must be a check also.....
Thnx Regards

@ All the queries
 

[QUOTE=waseem gurmani;168154]DOnt consider the new set-up as final one. Administrators are not going to be there for ever.Elections will be there in 6 months on party basis and nazims will comeback.
[/QUOTE]

I think you didn't comprehend the post brother...It was about the new law (yet not approved but is almost complete) that would define the role of Nazims, DCO's and DPO's after these 6 months.

[QUOTE=waseem gurmani;168154]
I disagree with you that empowering civil service(read DMG) without any civilian checks and balances is going to yeild positive results.[/QUOTE]

CM and his cabinet would keep the check and they are thorough civilians...

[QUOTE=waseem gurmani;168154]
We cannot and should not subjugate Police to DMG. BOth should be answerable to elected members of district govt.
WE can make the district govt more effective by elections on party basis and allocating more funds to local govt.[/QUOTE]

In all well governed countries, police is never given a free ride. It is kept under a check. Last regime tried to give Nazims the power to keep the check . But it failed Because a political figure can't be neutral..He has friends and foes And he has to support them in any case. So Nazims used the power to suppress their opponents, victimization and supporting their corrupt friends.
So DMG is the only option.

[QUOTE=oriental;168157]
Wasn't it good that the power was at the door step of the commoners.Now it is again in the haughty hands of SAHIB-BAHADU janab COMMSSIONER !.... Instead of rectifying the faults, the Govt has renounce the whole system.....it is a grave matter and it shows the power greed of the establishment...... When the people would be empowered?[/QUOTE]

Power has never been at the door step of commoners, earlier it was in the hands of aristocrat, elite families of each district,,,, now it would not be with them...

I HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED THAT NAZIMS 'LL HANDLE ALL THE DEVELOPMENT STUFF....But their administrative powers would be seized.Because they are never competent enough to handle administrative tasks.

2ndly GOVERNMENT IS NOT REVIVING THE OLD SYSTEM OF 1979, RATHER IT IS TOTALLY NEW SYSTEM, WHICH DO HV SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF 1979 LAW.

DMG can better handle police department instead of Nazim. Educational level of Nazim upto Matric is nothing in the field of administrating such a complex and often highly trained and qualified civil servant.

In addition to this, Obaid has rightly pointed out that a Nazim can't live at arms length and can't isolate himself from the political pressures. Nazim is prone to the undue pressures which ultimately have to be shifted to the shoulders of Police department. So it is not a wise decision to permit police department free of without check and balance of any effective authority. Nazim is weak in putting check and balance on police due to following factors:
1) Educational difference, technically lacking sound understanding
2) Nazim has to get undue favors from Police, hence accountability of police won't be initiated
3) Nazim has lesser financial powers and lesser clear cut doted lines. Lot of ambiguities prevail in the system.

[QUOTE=irshadsod;168215]DMG can better handle police department instead of Nazim. Educational level of Nazim upto Matric is nothing in the field of administrating such a complex and often highly trained and qualified civil servant.

In addition to this, Obaid has rightly pointed out that a Nazim can't live at arms length and can't isolate himself from the political pressures. Nazim is prone to the undue pressures which ultimately have to be shifted to the shoulders of Police department. So it is not a wise decision to permit police department free of without check and balance of any effective authority. Nazim is weak in putting check and balance on police due to following factors:
1) Educational difference, technically lacking sound understanding
2) Nazim has to get undue favors from Police, hence accountability of police won't be initiated
3) Nazim has lesser financial powers and lesser clear cut doted lines. Lot of ambiguities prevail in the system.[/QUOTE]

i totally agree with irshadsod and OBAID, and must appreciate their insight. In addition to this LG 01 was quite a weird system, lacking administrative hierarchy. Irshadshod has discussed the case of police and so was the case of every other department at tehsil level. SO REVIVAL OF ASSISTANT COMMISSIONERS 'll fill this gap....

Things look to be moving in right direction.

[QUOTE=KAWISH;168203]

well ansewr me dear members for the following things:
a-if new LG law would changed anything for the common?
b-like nazims,CSPs did misused thier powers,is there any provision in the new law to adress these wrongs?
c-why at all the annled law(LG sys 2001)cancelled the then LG sys?
d-n why exactly the old LG sys is restored again?
[/QUOTE]

Here are the answers KAWISH

a)
yes, we are hopeful of it... It will bring a better administrative set up for the people.
b)
It is having a hierarchy of command and checks. In such system, it is difficult to misuse one's power.
c)
That was really a big mistake committed by then government.
d)
The old system is not being restored, rather it is a new system, though having some characteristics of 1979 LB Law.

@obaid_gondal
how i wish the things were that simple they seemed apparantly!
the good law always keeps the features of enforcement in it.the administrative sys, no matter under what Bill,cannot be effective till it posses thatsalient feature. Bill says that the administerator would be an honest man etc,but has ever such conditions been met or even bothered in practice?if CSPs wronged people ,towards whom they are going to look for redress.seldom any enquiry is initiated against CSPs,n if ever initiated at all its end is never seen.
do they inserted any such provision in the new law?its justly said that we are good in drafting policies,poor in execution,because the essential element of enforceability n check n balance is always missed......

[QUOTE=KAWISH;168231]@obaid_gondal
the administrative sys, no matter under what Bill,cannot be effective till it posses thatsalient feature. Bill says that the administerator would be an honest man etc,but has ever such conditions been met or even bothered in practice?if CSPs wronged people ,towards whom they are going to look for redress[/QUOTE]

this thread is not about The appointment of Administrators, rather it is about the system succeeding it moreover salient features of that Law and it's impacts on the management of district are being discussed here.
[B]
Coming to your second point:[/B]
It is not the character of a[COLOR="DarkGreen"] CSP[/COLOR] or[COLOR="DarkGreen"] Nazim [/COLOR]that matters, rather it is the system.
If you have a good system, even the bad people will work. On the other hand in a bad system, even good people can't work....
AND a good system requires qualified men to run it.. [COLOR="Blue"]So as Ayesha said, things look to be moving in right direction. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168211]

CM and his cabinet would keep the check and they are thorough civilians...[/QUOTE]

Will u plz enlighten me about the difference between a CM & his cabinet'z caliber & qualifications other then that they belong to even more powerful feudal structure, have more money power, in the past had more opportunities to do all the looting nd corruption so they were promoted to higher ranks:))

I guess the only point u may come up wid they are all BA pass unlike a Nazim. Well my bro i can assure u tht half o those sitting in PA have fake degrees(Some have been proven guilty other were smart enough to avoid it).
Secondly a SSC certificate is a minimum qualification criteria fr a Nazim. No limit is fixed on the upper tht he has always to be a least educated person. Y dont u vote for a MA pol science, a lawyer, a MBBS, a Engr or even a phD holder:)).

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168211]
In all well governed countries, police is never given a free ride. It is kept under a check. Last regime tried to give Nazims the power to keep the check . But it failed [B]Because a political figure can't be neutral[/B]....[B]He has friends and foes And he has to support them in any case. So Nazims used the power to suppress their opponents, victimization and supporting their corrupt friends. [/B]
So DMG is the only option.[/QUOTE]

A political figure cant be neutral so how u expect the CM n his cabinet to put a effective nd unbiased check. They must be men from Mars!!
Secondly u said the unlike a political figure a DMG officer can keep himself at arms length from the general public. Here my bro my observation is tht, agreed that a Nazim has more interaction with general public but tht general public doesnt influences his decisions. Those who affect his decisions are only abt 1% of the people he interacts with nd tht 1% is the social circle of a DMG officer who affect his decision making too. So there is no difference in reality. If a person is nt strong enough to take pressure nd be still be up right, he ll become a part of corruption be it the Nazim or a DMG

U may always differ 2 me
Regards

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168233]this thread is not about The appointment of Administrators, rather it is about the system succeeding it moreover salient features of that Law and it's impacts on the management of district are being discussed here.
[B]
Coming to your second point:[/B]
It is not the character of a[COLOR="DarkGreen"] CSP[/COLOR] or[COLOR="DarkGreen"] Nazim [/COLOR]that matters, rather it is the system.
If you have a good system, even the bad people will work. On the other hand in a bad system, even good people can't work....
AND a good system requires qualified men to run it.. [COLOR="Blue"]So as Ayesha said, things look to be moving in right direction. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

brother a corrupt system is far more harmful than a corrupt individual!
keep praying for the motherland.....
Regards

@kawesh
 

[QUOTE=KAWISH;168296]brother a corrupt system is far more harmful than a corrupt individual!
keep praying for the motherland.....
Regards[/QUOTE]

Y WE FORGET THAT A CORRUPT SYSTEM IS THE PRODUCT OF CORRUPT INDIVIDUALS...Our System is corrupt because we are corrupt......don't blame others..we absolve ourselves from all faults by simply holding others responsible for our mistakes....its "we" who to blame........Its our fault not the systems or any other ,and its "we" who make the system.

Only prayers cant change the fate of nations......it requires action......as Iqbal said

Khuda ny aaj tak us qom ki halat nahi badli

Na ho jis ko khayal aap apni halat k badalnay ka

Do we have any such intentions............?

Answer is obvious......

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;168258]Will u plz enlighten me about the difference between a CM & his cabinet'z caliber & qualifications other then that they belong to even more powerful feudal structure, have more money power, in the past had more opportunities to do all the looting nd corruption so they were promoted to higher ranks:))
[/QUOTE]

yes brother, there is a hell of difference between a CM and Nazim... You need a bit of money to be Nazim but being CM requires much more charisma, acumen and political participation. So CM is never as ordinary as Nazim is..

Secondly CM has a number of experts to guide him in his decisions. That fills all the deficiencies of abilities. We can't even imagine to provide that much experts in a district.

Now as for as being politicized is concerned, CM would at the most favour his own district not every one in the province... (And they do favour that much, no doubt), so most of the province would be managed in a better way.

[quote=s_ranjha;168258]
secondly u said the unlike a political figure a dmg officer can keep himself at arms length from the general public. Here my bro my observation is tht, agreed that a nazim has more interaction with general public but tht general public doesnt influences his decisions. Those who affect his decisions are only abt 1% of the people he interacts with [b]nd tht 1% is the social circle of a dmg officer who affect his decision making too.[/b] [b]so there is no difference in reality[/b]. If a person is nt strong enough to take pressure nd be still be up right, he ll become a part of corruption be it the nazim or a dmg
[/quote]

Mr Ranjha, Civil servants are not posted in their own districts, so they can't have a social circle equivalent to Nazim(impossible). So they are not forced or pushed by culprits as Nazims or other political men are pushed.
.

[QUOTE=oriental;168319][B]Y WE FORGET THAT A CORRUPT SYSTEM IS THE PRODUCT OF CORRUPT INDIVIDUALS..[/B].Our System is corrupt because we are corrupt......don't blame others..we absolve ourselves from all faults by simply holding others responsible for our mistakes....its "we" who to blame........Its our fault not the systems or any other ,and its "we" who make the system.

Only prayers cant change the fate of nations......it requires action......as Iqbal said

Khuda ny aaj tak us qom ki halat nahi badli

Na ho jis ko khayal aap apni halat k badalnay ka

Do we have any such intentions............?

Answer is obvious......[/QUOTE]


It is not necessary sir.

corrupt system may be created/produced by an honest BUT LESS EFFICIENT individual. Creation of Systems is all about intention and efficiency.

@oriental
its appriciable to know the nation is awake n concious!!!

@the supporters of new LG bill
pls help me understand how this new bill is going to be anything hopeful.

@all respected members:
NOTE:im a neutral ,pls dont take me as the opposer r supporter f any bill.rather im making u to help me farming my opinion far or againt this new bill.
Regards

@Ayesha thank u i agree w/ u.Regards

thankx 4 your favour kawish

[QUOTE=KAWISH;168384]
@the supporters of new LG bill
pls help me understand how this new bill is going to be anything hopeful.

@all respected members:
NOTE:im a neutral ,pls dont take me as the opposer r supporter f any bill.rather im making u to help me farming my opinion far or againt this new bill.
Regards[/QUOTE]

I think Mr Obaid should perform this task, as he seems to have good command over the topic...

@ KAWISH and MOON CHILD
 

[QUOTE=KAWISH;168384]

@the supporters of new LG bill
pls help me understand how this new bill is going to be anything hopeful.

@all respected members:
NOTE:im a neutral ,pls dont take me as the opposer r supporter f any bill.rather im making u to help me farming my opinion far or againt this new bill.
Regards[/QUOTE]

your question needs a long answer that I can't post at the moment :snor

any way if you ask me to answer it in one word, i would say that new system is far better than the older one because it provides a better administrative set up...
HOW ?
1) LGO 2001, had almost destroyed the administration of district. The powers and responsibilities given to various officers were undefined. There was no pivot at tehsil level and devolved institutions were working independently without any check. So there was a dire need to make a new system.[B] AND the new system is addressing this issue by ending up with TEHSIL NAZIM & reviving ASSISTANT COMMISSIONERS. [/B]

2) devolution of institution is a good step, but has to follow certain limits too. LGO 2001 had made a district almost independent state and thus was against the provincial authority. Provincial authority is some thing necessary because, a province can afford to hire experts to form a policy, but a district can't. [B]New system is addressing this issue too. Some institutions are completely devolved, like Primary Education, Basic health, extensions of Agriculture etc.[/B]

3) The process of the election of District NAZIM was very poor and vulnerable. Any feudal or Industrialist, no matter how unpopular he was, could be a district Nazim by spending a bit of money. That is why PPP couldn't win in LARKANA even...:blink ..SO there was a need to make the system democratic so that it should move in line with public will. [B]NEW SYSTEM IS ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE TOO BY INTRODUCING DIRECT AND PARTY BASED ELECTIONS. [/B]

4) Police and DMG must have coordination for better management of district. LGO 2001 had made police totally independent and DMG was deprived of its powers to play any role in enforcing law and order. That is why very sad and painful incidents (like in GOJRA) happened. NEW SYSTEM IS ADDRESSING THIS TOO.

I'll jot down rest of the points in my next post.....:snor

@obaid
thnk u so much.i ll be more grateful if u provide some link or recomment some source where all the blessings n burdens f this new bill are available.....
regards Hush Raho

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168211]I think you didn't comprehend the post brother...It was about the new law (yet not approved but is almost complete) that would define the role of Nazims, DCO's and DPO's after these 6 months.



CM and his cabinet would keep the check and they are thorough civilians...



In all well governed countries, police is never given a free ride. It is kept under a check. Last regime tried to give Nazims the power to keep the check . But it failed Because a political figure can't be neutral..He has friends and foes And he has to support them in any case. So Nazims used the power to suppress their opponents, victimization and supporting their corrupt friends.
So DMG is the only option.



Power has never been at the door step of commoners, earlier it was in the hands of aristocrat, elite families of each district,,,, now it would not be with them...

I HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED THAT NAZIMS 'LL HANDLE ALL THE DEVELOPMENT STUFF....But their administrative powers would be seized.Because they are never competent enough to handle administrative tasks.

2ndly GOVERNMENT IS NOT REVIVING THE OLD SYSTEM OF 1979, RATHER IT IS TOTALLY NEW SYSTEM, WHICH DO HV SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF 1979 LAW.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, dear i think i was not responding to your post. I was responding to what Ms. Ayesha was saying. In other words i was commenting on her suggestions.

Secondly, i am surprised to know that CM and his cabinet will have checks and balances on the local govt. In my humble opinion,system of checks and balances should be within district govt.

Thirdly, You have said that in many other countries police is not given free ride.
Well, dear not only police has been given a free ride but they are also equipped with the magistracy powers in many of countries (though these powers are restricted to law and order)

Andd everywhere in the world civil servants are accountable to the elected members of people. You cannot subjugate one before another after they have been recruited on the same merit and criteria.
In other words giving control of police to DMG will destroy the whole local govt system.

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168338]yes brother, there is a hell of difference between a CM and Nazim... You need a bit of money to be Nazim but being CM requires much more charisma, acumen and political participation. So CM is never as ordinary as Nazim is..

Secondly CM has a number of experts to guide him in his decisions. That fills all the deficiencies of abilities. We can't even imagine to provide that much experts in a district.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, Karachi city nazim is much more efficient,politically wise and charismatic than our CMs...lolzzz

Infact you are persuming the musharaf's local govt system as actual one (which constitution ensures). In that system, nazims were given chance because of their political affliation so that PMLN and PPP should be kept out and in many cases they were not given chance to work efficiently. You can not consider it the failure of system. It was because the system was not implemented in letter and spirit. If local govt system is implemented in its true spirit, problems can be solved.
Moreover, elections on the party basis is step in the right direction. IN this case parties will not be oblivious from the efficiency of nazims.

And onething more i dont think political leaders will afford scrapping local govt system altogether....

@waseem gurmani
aoa from ur post it seems tht u r uncomfortable abt the new bill...
properly that should have been the approach f everyone.not getting sceptical abt everything but be a little careful in accepting changes.

i think if they had added some provisions as to the check over new administrators,that could have been something to get excited.the change has aroused nothing but apathy.gvt could have done it in much better way,if annulment f previous law was at all intended.

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168338] yes brother, there is a hell of difference between a CM and Nazim... You need a bit of money to be Nazim but being CM requires much more charisma, acumen and political participation. So CM is never as ordinary as Nazim is..

Secondly CM has a number of experts to guide him in his decisions. That fills all the deficiencies of abilities. We can't even imagine to provide that much experts in a district..[/QUOTE]

Agreed to ur point that to be a Nazim u need a bit but fr a CM u need loads of money. Thtss all my dear.
Charisma........ Pervaiz Ilahi was a charismatic leader so he was CM:clap nd 2 follow up that Zardari is our president.
Political participation........... if thts the criteria, may be Shahbaz sharif would nt be eligible in next 5 yrs too. There are numerous people in PML(N) tht have much more political participation then Mr Shahbaz

You cant even think of providing a Nazim a team of experts. Well thts what u shd be doing from day one. What makes u 2 nt think of tht.I really wonder a expert sitting at provincial level can knw the ground line situations nd problems in a district. A team of experts inevery field shd be dere to help Nazim. If u question the availability then my answer them temme i can make u alist of hundreds of professionals who r sitting idle just coz of sky rocketing employment rate of us. If u question abt the financial terms associated with tht team i guess government machinery ruins millions of rupees over ghost devolopment nd service sectors., so y nt used them fr something productive




[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168338]
Now as for as being politicized is concerned, CM would at the most favour his own district not every one in the province... (And they do favour that much, no doubt), so most of the province would be managed in a better way. [/QUOTE]

A CM will do favor to his own district?? Well i would have been pleased had they been doing tht coz it ll gimme da hope tht one day he ll be thinking of the whole province as his own. Be it the CM or whosoever they never are touchy about their district nd their people. They just work fr the interest of a particular lobby without the support of which they cant be what they are. Mr Shahbaz has done much fr lahore nt coz he belongs to the city but coz tht elite lobby mostly belongs to the provincial capital.




[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168338]
Civil servants are not posted in their own districts, so they can't have a social circle equivalent to Nazim(impossible). So they are not forced or pushed by culprits as Nazims or other political men are pushed.
.[/QUOTE]

Well thnx really fr me informing tht CSPz r nt posted in their own district:clap. I was enlightened by thie piece of info. I guess i made it clear tht if u r talking in the common sense, yes social circle of a Nazim is lot bigger but when u talk of the pressure group or lobby tht is the same fr both. Believe me if u r a poor common man, it doesn't matter that u r a 1st czn of any Nazim or his next door neighbor. U r just nothing to him 2 even listen to u let alone being manipulated by you. Actually tht pressure group or lobby has to protect his vested interests nd they ll force any person(be it the Nazim or a DMG person) to ensure their stakes. I am nt questioning how many CSPz u personally knw but i somehow have somekind of interaction with little above a dozen nd i knw dere social circle.

Anyhow i dont wanna start a personal debate wid u. It may be tht we two have our own different perceptions of things. As no one is authority over her. So u can keep ur while i stick 2 mine.
It would be really kind of u if u can post the final version of LB amendment bill so tht we can talk over something real.

No offence meant
Regards

[QUOTE=KAWISH;168529]@waseem gurmani
aoa from ur post it seems tht u r uncomfortable abt the new bill...
properly that should have been the approach f everyone.not getting sceptical abt everything but be a little careful in accepting changes.

i think if they had added some provisions as to the check over new administrators,that could have been something to get excited.the change has aroused nothing but apathy.gvt could have done it in much better way,if annulment f previous law was at all intended.[/QUOTE]

Offcourse i am uncomfortable with this system. Because it is against the spirit of constitution.
Article 32 ofconstitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan states:

[B][I]The State shall encourage local Government institutions composed of elected representatives of the areas concerned and in such institutions special representation will be given to peasants, workers and women.[/I][/B]
[B][/B]
Is the state really encouraging such system???
[B][/B]
Article 140-A of the constitution states:

[B][I]Each Province shall, by law, establish a local government system and devolve political, administrative and financial responsibility and authority to the elected representatives of the local governments. [/I][/B][B][/B]

[B][/B]
How can we favour such system which is against the constitution.

Moreover, the new system is also against the much trumpeted [B][I]Charter of Democracy.[/I][/B]
[B][/B]
[B][/B]

@waseem gurmani
so am i!
u are a very respectable member at this forum n im really moved by ur arguments...
im not totally against this bill nor the previous one coz both are not free f flaws.
but im still taking time to give my final judgement over this new bill.want to do after hearing others' views.lets keep our mind open to let the argument make its place.its only by being neutral that any judicious conclusion can be achieved.
Regards

Waiting anxousily for the Final Judgement of the Kawish........ :waiting

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;168211]Nazims used the power to suppress their opponents, victimization and supporting their corrupt friends.
So DMG is the only option. .[/QUOTE]

What made you people think that Police will come under the sway of DCOs under this new LG Bill? [B]This will never happen[/B]:nono

Under the LGO 2001, DCO has 13 deptts, on which DCOs and Provincial secretaries, both excercise control, whereas in the new proposed bill, to end this dichotomy, few departments like health, education and few other departments will be given under full control of DCO, while provincial governemts will fully control the other ones. The posts of EDO Finance and Revenue might also get abolished. But let me also add, that the draft is not final yet, changes could be expected.

Whatever little I have been able to understand from the news, the new LGO will not add any additional attraction to the office of DCO. Previously he has less control over more departments, now he'll have more control over less departments, so the equation almost remains the same.

Regarding Police, it was and it will remain quasi-independent. They might put checks and balances like Public Safety Commissions, but surely [B]DCO will have no authority over DPO.[/B] By changing alone the LGO, you cannot make DPOs subservients to DCOs as for this, you have to also ammend Police Order and Criminal Procedure Code; which is a purely federal subject and provinces cannot change it.

But even if all the system is reverted back to pre-devolution level, it is necessary to remember, that DC had only cosmetic authority over police, like issuance of warrants etc, and DCs cannot interfere in the administrative affairs of Police.

Besides, such attempt of revival of executive magistracy, will not stand against the court of law, as it is the violation of the constitution which requires separation of executive and judiciary. On the other hand the protests against curbing of Nazims powers by Media, Tehreek-e-Insaf, PML-Q, MQM and Nazims themselves raise serious doubts on the durability of such Ordinance.

The moral of all my discussion is that if you think that by this upcoming LGO, DMG will become more powerful group than Police, You better [B]Think Again[/B].:thinking

[QUOTE=Sociologist PU;168764]Waiting anxousily for the Final Judgement of the Kawish........ :waiting[/QUOTE]

well help me then in making one!may we know what ur conventinal wisdom says about this law?since i haven't read about this bill in detail,need others' assistance!
Regards

@ all respectable members

If anybody out dere has the text fr the LG amendment bill Punjab, plz do share

That is pretty impressive discussion on the law whose contours are not clear yet :clap

I didn't read all the posts and I am not really up to date on this topic but last time I heard LG law was the responsibility of respective provinces. So are we talking about Punjab's LG law?

@waseem gurmani
Bro, I read your first comment about Police-DMG...as far as my understanding goes Police is one dept under Ministry of Interior and Secretary Interior being on the top and most of the funds etc. go through him. The IGs report to him or in some way he is above them so even if we get Nazims to write their ACRs and liberate them from DMG's control, DMG still rules. Ministry of Interior is just one dept they are on top of every ministry.

I hope my understanding is right and might not be truly relevant to your point but just wanted to clarify their respective powers.

[QUOTE=abdullahkhan5;168801]
@waseem gurmani
Bro, I read your first comment about Police-DMG...as far as my understanding goes Police is one dept under Ministry of Interior and Secretary Interior being on the top and most of the funds etc. go through him. The IGs report to him or in some way he is above them so even if we get Nazims to write their ACRs and liberate them from DMG's control, DMG still rules. Ministry of Interior is just one dept they are on top of every ministry.

I hope my understanding is right and might not be truly relevant to your point but just wanted to clarify their respective powers.[/QUOTE]
I beg to disagree with you. If you think IGP comes under control of Provincial Home secretary, you must be joking. Home secretary cannot even give direct orders to a Sepoy. Provincial Home Secretary is responsible for some petty issues related to law enforcement, like providing co-ordination among police, prisons, child protection bureau, civil defense etc, resolving complaints against unjust ACRs, inter-provincial communication for crime control and hearing complaints against police torture cases.

But at Federal level, yes, IGPs do answer to Federal Secretary Interior, but he is sometimes from DMG and sometimes from Police. Kamal Shah, our last interior secretary, who served on that post for more than 5 years, was a PSP guy. However principally Federal Secretary Interior should be from PSP, while technically, any civil servant can become a Secretary Interior, even if he is from Income Tax group.

Well I was not joking since I said Ministry of Interior and I meant at the federal level. Yes you are right technically it should be from PSP but after having discussions with couple of DIGs, they say DMGs rule and they are like mafia (not my words)

my conclusion!
 

aoa all
the debate over Karry Lugar bill didn t ended even after it was passed.i remember various political parties holding a kind of plebscite over the bill.the use???

my point is that the new LG bill has been passed now n there is little use of discussing whether it is good or not.yes if any change is meant then we must carry on with it.but that being the least pursued under this discussion lemme say that now if anything at all should be discussed abt this bill is that how we can survive w/ it?how by our practice,once being w/ the responsibility n authority,we can correct the defects of this bill?
to my mind this bill is no revolution.like many laws of the land,the biggest flaw in it is that it is silent with respect to the accountability.or tell me where the wronged,after being mal-treated by the administrators is to go for justice???
Regards

@ anwaartheravian , abdullahkhan5, KAWISH
 

[QUOTE=anwaartheravian;168781]What made you people think that Police will come under the sway of DCOs under this new LG Bill? [B]This will never happen[/B]:nono

Regarding Police, it was and it will remain quasi-independent. They might put checks and balances like Public Safety Commissions, but surely [B]DCO will have no authority over DPO.[/B] By changing alone the LGO, you cannot make DPOs subservients to DCOs as for this, you have to also ammend Police Order and Criminal Procedure Code; which is a purely federal subject and provinces cannot change it.

But even if all the system is reverted back to pre-devolution level, it is necessary to remember, that DC had only cosmetic authority over police, like issuance of warrants etc, and DCs cannot interfere in the administrative affairs of Police.

Besides, such attempt of revival of executive magistracy, will not stand against the court of law, as it is the violation of the constitution which requires separation of executive and judiciary. On the other hand the protests against curbing of Nazims powers by Media, Tehreek-e-Insaf, PML-Q, MQM and Nazims themselves raise serious doubts on the durability of such Ordinance.

The moral of all my discussion is that if you think that by this upcoming LGO, DMG will become more powerful group than Police, You better [B]Think Again[/B].:thinking[/QUOTE]

I am sorry i couldn't reply early as I was back to my village. And I am really shocked to see the arguments of my friends. Some of guys have portrayed police and DMG to be rivals institutions ....I am sorry to say, It is not so...

Let me tell you that police and DMG cannot survive without eachother. for a good governance in any district there has to be good coordination between the dco and the dpo. even in the time of DC even then there had to be had good ties between DC and the SP....

And for that coordination DC has certain powers over police and that they are giving. MOREOVER UNIFORMED INSTITUTIONS ARE TO BE UNDER CIVIL CONTROL, LET IT BE ARMY OR POLICE.......


[QUOTE=anwaartheravian;168781]

Under the LGO 2001, DCO has 13 deptts, on which DCOs and Provincial secretaries, both excercise control, whereas in the new proposed bill, to end this dichotomy, few departments like health, education and few other departments will be given under full control of DCO, while provincial governemts will fully control the other ones. The posts of EDO Finance and Revenue might also get abolished. But let me also add, that the draft is not final yet, changes could be expected.

Whatever little I have been able to understand from the news, the new LGO will not add any additional attraction to the office of DCO. Previously he has less control over more departments, now he'll have more control over less departments, so the equation almost remains the same.

[/QUOTE]

My friend some of the depts would come under direct and complete control of DC while other would remain as they they were in LGO 01. You can't imagine to have GOOD GOVERNANCE while asking secretary to control all the 36 DEO's.

[QUOTE=obaid_gondal;169743]I am sorry i couldn't reply early as I was back to my village. And I am really shocked to see the arguments of my friends. Some of guys have portrayed police and DMG to be rivals institutions ....I am sorry to say, It is not so...

Let me tell you that police and DMG cannot survive without eachother. for a good governance in any district there has to be good coordination between the dco and the dpo. even in the time of DC even then there had to be had good ties between DC and the SP....

And for that coordination DC has certain powers over police and that they are giving. MOREOVER UNIFORMED INSTITUTIONS ARE TO BE UNDER CIVIL CONTROL, LET IT BE ARMY OR POLICE.......




My friend some of the depts would come under direct and complete control of DC while other would remain as they they were in LGO 01. You can't imagine to have GOOD GOVERNANCE while asking secretary to control all the 36 DEO's.[/QUOTE]

which part of ur post is in reply of mine???

[QUOTE=KAWISH;169822]which part of ur post is in reply of mine???[/QUOTE]

I am sorry, I couldn't reply the post earlier:::

[QUOTE=KAWISH;169092]
[B]my point is that the new LG bill has been passed now n there is little use of discussing whether it is good or not[/B].yes if any change is meant then we must carry on with it.but that being the least pursued under this discussion lemme say that now if anything at all should be discussed abt this bill is that how we can survive w/ it?how by our practice,once being w/ the responsibility n authority,we can correct the defects of this bill?
to my mind this bill is no revolution.like many laws of the land,the biggest flaw in it is that it is silent with respect to the accountability.or tell me where the wronged,after being mal-treated by the administrators is to go for justice???
Regards[/QUOTE]

Local Body law has not been passed yet. Provincial Assemblies have just passed a Law to end the Nazim rule and to appoint the ADMINISTRATORS.... New Law is yet to be passed.

Law Ministry has formulated a draft, and forwarded it to MPA's as well. The points given by me have been taken from the same draft......