Why doctors and Engineers want to become CSPs?
 

I don't know why it's happening? It costs our Government big amount to impart medical or engineering to students at a high subsidised rate. Govt spends 1 Lakh per year on making of a doctor and he pays back only 16,000. After, they have got a highly subsidised education in very fine arenas, great jobs with lucrative salaries are waiting for them, they have respect and honour. They don't bear unemployment as do our BA/BSc/BBA students. Then what the point of it, that they go for CSS, and want to become civil servants where they certainly earn less.

@ Unique

Doctors and engineers want to become a CSP because they have no worth in this society.Pakistan is a Police State and to become powerful and feared one needs to be a CSP.Doctors and engineers are sheepish lot.

In pakistan the best profession is army,politics and bureaucracy.iss mulk may jo sab say barraa badmash hay wahi sab say ziada izzat kamata hay.

I have personally seen doctors and engineers.my elder brother and younger brother are doctor and engineer.Norespect.One is a butcher and the other is a non entity.

Regards,

Help

Job security, growth and to be a policy maker in state's policies are great aspects in Civil Services than those of the other Services.

css is the best option among allll for anybody...may be coz of lake of careeer counsiling people even after becoming doctors and engineers do not get satisfied from their respective fields thts they want to go for something different.

power only
 

Doctors, Engineers have high salaries, of course, but low authority. They have respect in their job and have very very good chance to serve the nation in a far better way but human nature always seek for power, authority thats what tempt them for CSS.

doctors and high salaries seriously!
after 5 years of study,house job duration 1 year,with 18000 rs pay per month.house officer has the toughest duties
then he has to prepare for an exam fcps or other
after clearing it,apply for post graduation in a teaching hospital,tough to get it easily.only with a pay of 22000 rs per month. this continues for at least 4-6 more years.during which he has to pass two more exams one is intermediate module and second one is fcps part 2.now tell me at an age of 30-34 years you are only earning 20-30 thousand per month.private practice is very difficult during this schedule and hectic to manage(e.g in surgery house officer has to work sometimes 60-80 hours straight/in medicine also tough schedules. so if one has a private practice it is too difficult to manage it).in short low pay-more work - no authority-constant study and pressure to save human life
now if he does usmle, he goes to america and receives good pay in dollars.but in us you don't get the desire field easily,surgery field is near to impossible.
still if you get job there,again 6-8years of hard work is must.other options like acs,plab etc are almost over.
one reason for doctors coming to css is this struggle.if he has to earn more he has to become selfish,non-devoted and greedy which most do not want to become.
similarly engineers do get job early and sometimes better paid but job satisfaction is not there.

No Sir
 

Sir!!!!

House Job Doctors are enjouying 43000/month at Sheikh Zaid Hospital Rahim Yar Khan. Ap pata nain kis zamane ki bat kr rahe hen
By the way CSP officer ki salray bhi bohat zada nai hoti
and 5 years education afrer Intermediate.

sir me king edward-meo hospital,jinnah hospital lahore,ganga ram lahore, services lahore,allied hospital faisalabad,nishtar multan all are paying 18000 per month.ye be 2 sal se hui he is se pehle 12000 thi us se 1 sal pehle it was 6000 and something.then doctors protested to ye increase hui he. house job me itni pay nahi milti someone might have misinform you. itni to fcps doctor ki pay nahi hoti in the beginning.may be sheikh zaid ryk me ho but there will be limited seats there. what more i can say?
doctor has to study 12 more years + intermediate
Csp ho k bunda relax ho jata he

[QUOTE=DEADLYDOCTOR;177378]sir me king edward-meo hospital,jinnah hospital lahore,ganga ram lahore, services lahore,allied hospital faisalabad,nishtar multan all are paying 18000 per month.ye be 2 sal se hui he is se pehle 12000 thi us se 1 sal pehle it was 6000 and something.then doctors protested to ye increase hui he. house job me itni pay nahi milti [/QUOTE]

I second Deadly Doctor. His stated figures are in agreement with my observation. Doctors, as long as they are under training, be it house job or FCPS training, do not get much. Size of their pay check is nothing when compared to their terrible schedule and serious responsibilities.

Prior to last few years Engrs only from background of landlord families or from already bureaucratic families(like poor me) tend to appear in CSS nd majority didn't looked at CSS as something full of charm n were quite satisfied with their jobs. But in last 2 yrs many people have diverted to it just coz of the worst scenario in job sector as they could not find any respectable job in engineering sector. This is as per my observation

[LEFT]perhaps we should make a distinction between a "JOB" and a "CAREER"...secondly perhaps life is larger than being an engineer or a doctor....being an engineer/doctor adds to your skills right...and they never go away no matter what you do in life or whichever career you choose...an engineer is analytic and a doctor has good Ratta/memorization power....[/LEFT]

there is no denying the fact (as mentioned by the FPSC reports too) that there had been a decline in the interest in CSS examination very recently in the past...students went on to avail scholarships abroad and had lucrative opportunities in the past....but this would be unfair to all those who appeared/ prepared to appear because they had a passion for it....

Power and Respect
 

[B][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]unfortunately in our country doctors and engineers have low status as compared to css officers, and they have to consume lot of time in their field but inspite of that there is no out put. [/FONT][/B]

i feel that "Respect and Power Khuda dayta hay"....CSS or Engineering or Presidency nai dayti....we should keep in mind, whosoever puts up any struggle in life, whatever field that may be, he shall be rewarded. there are a countless CSPs who are not known to the world (they did not achieve anything) while there are some known to everybody...even after getting commission people who won't put up a hard work will not get anything at the end of the day...

i agree with umer
css is only cleared after hard work and luck is the biggest factor in it
doctors and engineers are also citizens of Pakistan. they have the right to compete
doctors and engineers are not having a low status.they are at moderate level
infact i know in lahore certain doctors who are earning 1-1.5 lac daily:)
e.g a cardiac surgeon at doctor hospital is doing cabg operations 3-4 daily for 6 days a week. one operation earns the hospital a sum of 3 lac at least.you can imagine. a doctor at a hospital near stadium is having 100 patients daily and has a fee of 1200 per patient(it is really hard to get time(12pm-10pm) there. imagine 120000 daily is must for him). like this so many other examples.
similarly engineers are enjoying good pay, one of my friend(31yr old) is a n engineer working in govt. department on 17 scale and about to get promoted on 18 scale soon is earning well,he has also started his private company where he provides same service.on an average he is earning 70-90 thousand per month
only 5-10 % doctors or engineers are coming for css and most of them have a dream of being a csp from a very long time.

Doctors and Engineers who are unsatisfied from their existing privileges or their personal aptitude push them to join Civil Services.

[QUOTE=umarabbas;177685]i feel that "Respect and Power Khuda dayta hay"....CSS or Engineering or Presidency nai dayti....we should keep in mind, whosoever puts up any struggle in life, whatever field that may be, he shall be rewarded. there are a countless CSPs who are not known to the world (they did not achieve anything) while there are some known to everybody...even after getting commission people who won't put up a hard work will not get anything at the end of the day...[/QUOTE]

[B][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]'Watu Izzu Mantasha, Watu Zillu Mantasha'[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]


agreed, but power khuda ne shetan ko bhi diya hai, today the devil is dominant over the entire world. but inShallAh time will come................................................................................!

The only reason why doctors are applying for Css rather than pursuing their own feild is that at the moment there are no jobs for doctors anywhere in Pakistan,even if a doctor passes the Fcps-I exam it doesn't guarantee that you'll get a training post with stipend so thats why most of the poor Trainees have to work on honourary basis just to save their precious time.No-one is crazy to study subjects that he hasn't even heard of during his student life...

doctor and engineer's are most competent people
 

it is clear that our doctor and engineer's are most competent people comparison to all other fields.
especially those doctor and engineer's who attained their degree from government institutions. such as uet . kemc.fjmc.etc

so we can say that they are cream for our country.

otherwise those students who failed to attain their goals according to their wishes they choose css and want to be a csp officer.

in my idea a doctor or engineer is better csp officer other then those people.

csp officer having following priorities which not available to doctor or engineer's

1- vip protocol
2- residence facilities
3-vast relationship to indastrial and wealthy people
4- very easy to get black money
5- respect in family
6- his one letter or phone call give job to everyone
7-bright career for his children
8- very easy to go abroad
9-give proper time to his family
10- no security problem
11-easy chance to progress
12- be a member of elite class
13- respect by spouse
14- in some cases he interference in politice and help his family member
15- after retirement no job tention
16- healty personality and environment
17- not hardworking required. only signature required
18- enough staff (security guard,peon,computer operater, etc)
19-king of the field
20- respect, respect, respect,..................................

@Hafiz Sahib..

i personally believe the points that you have mentioned are true...but some of them are really out of line....for example the respect from the spouse wallah point...lol...i mean why would my wife love me for the fact that i am a CSP...anyways your point of view is respected...

but prolly during our life time these things will change....today's world does not run along colonial lines...things are changing and they are changing fast....

and yeah...if one has received education in the truest sense, he/she won't go for such things...because it does not suit your office, stature, education etc etc that you fall for stuff that is definitely not "De jure" but certainly "De Facto"...

[B][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]The appalling truth is that there is no future of medical or engineering in our country, every year hundreds of doctors are leaving this country. Because of future insecurity, thats y they decide to join CSS.[/FONT][/B]

[I]Originally posted by hafiz ishtiaq ahmad[/I]
[QUOTE]1- vip protocol
2- residence facilities
3-vast relationship to indastrial and wealthy people
4- very easy to get black money
5- respect in family
6- his one letter or phone call give job to everyone
7-bright career for his children
8- very easy to go abroad
[B]9-give proper time to his family[/B]
10- no security problem
11-easy chance to progress
12- be a member of elite class
13- respect by spouse
14- in some cases he interference in politice and help his family member
15- after retirement no job tention
16- healty personality and environment
[B]17- not hardworking required. only signature required[/B]
18- enough staff (security guard,peon,computer operater, etc)
19-king of the field
20- respect, respect, respect,.................................. [/QUOTE]

I do not agree with the highlighted points in bold.

If one is serving as DPO or DCO somewhere, it is hard to get time for his family. And these people have also to work late in offices and fields rather than just signing the pepers. The exception is when one is posted in far areas of country.

Responsibility
 

Very true Mr. Omer

It is a fact known that "Authority comes with responsibility"

Gone are the days when it was believed that Govt. officer is less hardworking and has a relaxed job. Its really hard to get time for your family and personal life. You have lot of responsibilities that late sitting and no off days has became very common

Its True
 

[QUOTE=HELP;177314]@ Unique

Doctors and engineers want to become a CSP because they have no worth in this society.Pakistan is a Police State and to become powerful and feared one needs to be a CSP.Doctors and engineers are sheepish lot.

In pakistan the best profession is army,politics and bureaucracy.iss mulk may jo sab say barraa badmash hay wahi sab say ziada izzat kamata hay.

I have personally seen doctors and engineers.my elder brother and younger brother are doctor and engineer.Norespect.One is a butcher and the other is a non entity.

Regards,

Help[/QUOTE]

I'm myself an Engineer and had experience of being a jobless or jobs on contract basis for 3 years, prior to join FPSC, My father always told me that being an Engineer is nothing for a secure future you must have to be in Government job, He is Judge and MASHALLAH serve about 35 Glorious years in the services but in front of him I hired thrice but for 3 months 6 months contracts, Being an Engineer or Doctor is life of SHEEP...

[B]My father always teach me that Duaa:[/B]

[B][I]"Ayee ALLAH muj ko Bhoot Kabil na bana, balka Muja un jasa bana jin ki command ma Bhoot sa Qabil hon Ameen!"[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Unique;177312]I don't know why it's happening? It costs our Government big amount to impart medical or engineering to students at a high subsidised rate. Govt spends 1 Lakh per year on making of a doctor and he pays back only 16,000. After, they have got a highly subsidised education in very fine arenas, great jobs with lucrative salaries are waiting for them, they have respect and honour. They don't bear unemployment as do our BA/BSc/BBA students. Then what the point of it, that they go for CSS, and want to become civil servants where they certainly earn less.[/QUOTE]

i strongly believed that doctors and engineers should not join civil service,but we have no right to confine them in their medical field...since independence bureaucracy is so strong in our country..everyone wants to get power&prestige in our status conscious society...these factors obviously prompt the doctors and engineers to join civil service...:sad,they leave their profession and in this way waste government money, their medical seat,and arts student'seat in civil service:Dnodoubt they are more intelligent&hardworking than arts'students...

@Maha

I don't agree with your point,give the doctors and engineers good jobs and none of them will ever think of going abroad or opting out of their respective professions,its not just about being in power,its rather about having a safe future.

Regarding Unique's point,I haven't yet heard of great jobs with lucrative salaries and respect and honour.Imagine being a Post-Graduate Trainee whose on call for 36 hours on the trot and in the end gets literally nothing for his efforts.

Thanks for participation
 

I'm happy to see how fast this thread ran. Now what I can conclude from this very discussion is as follows, kindly judge my observation.

1. Civil Service offers a much more cherished career as compared with Engineering and Medicine specially keeping in view the scenario of Pakistan.
2. It's far easy to pass CSS EXAM than to go for specialisation in any med/engg field specially in abroad universities.
3. CSS is for everyone, Engg and Med are restricted for students who are extraordinarily intelligent or have great memorising abilities respectively.
4. It involves LESS STRUGGLE to get a nice life via CSS as comaped with Med/Engg where one is forced to follow a hectic work routine, and needs to pass too many exams and tests.


I may be wrong in this assessment. But this is what I could get from the whole discussion.
rEGARDS

@Above
Regarding your second point,Imagine that you get good marks in matric,then Fsc then in entry test after which you get admission to a medical or an engineering college and after 4-5 years of rigorous study you graduate and you find out that there are actually no jobs for you anywhere.


I don't agree with your point that life of a CSP is not full of struggle,Umar aptly mentioned earlier that they don't get time for themselves or their families.

@All

Does this mean that only an underdog (doctor or engineer) will gor for civil service?

[QUOTE=Omer;178922]@All

Does this mean that only an underdog (doctor or engineer) will gor for civil service?[/QUOT
NEVER ever,if doctors and engineers already know that they will not get good jobs after the completion of their studies then why they wana to join this field..why they waste govt money and their time?

Y u ppl are mixing a field of knowledge with a profession. I did Engg not to get a handsome job wid a big salary package but coz i wanted to learn few things. Nd my this desire isn't gonna end by me opting 4 CSS. I ll still be learning new things from my field nd applying them wherever possible. I can speak on the behalf of engrz that they are much better equipped to handle a daily life issue or situation which has got nothing to do with dere degree just coz they have developed sound analytical approach to analyze the prob nd come up with solutions. This approach can be applied in any field or profession and is not limited to any particular profession

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;178938]Y u ppl are mixing a field of knowledge with a profession. I did Engg not to get a handsome job wid a big salary package but coz i wanted to learn few things. Nd my this desire isn't gonna end by me opting 4 CSS. I ll still be learning new things from my field nd applying them wherever possible. I can speak on the behalf of engrz that they are much better equipped to handle a daily life issue or situation which has got nothing to do with dere degree just coz they have developed sound analytical approach to analyze the prob nd come up with solutions. This approach can be applied in any field or profession and is not limited to any particular profession[/QUOTE]

well Mr Ranjha
You are right in your opinion that having a background of Science/Engineering imparts analytical skills that helps you deal in detecting and solving a social problem, but I strongly believe that if a student has an ultimate aim of doing CSS he/she should not go for Medicine/Engineering rather he/she should opt for social sciences and humanities. It's far easy for a good student to excel in CSS if he has a degree in social sciences bcz CSS in its essence tests how well educated is a candidte regarding society. However if ''that'' good student first does Med/Engg then he has to work more in preparing for CSS.

[QUOTE=Maha Khan;178054]i strongly believed that doctors and engineers should not join civil service,but we have no right to confine them in their medical field...since independence bureaucracy is so strong in our country..everyone wants to get power&prestige in our status conscious society...these factors obviously prompt the doctors and engineers to join civil service...:sad,they leave their profession and in this way waste government money, their medical seat,and arts student'seat in civil service:Dnodoubt they are more intelligent&hardworking than arts'students...[/QUOTE]

i do not agree with you. Engr and doc are most valueable people of country they are cream, but jobs for engr and doc are not available these days
i want to give you example i am engr UET Taxila(electrical+telecom specializtion) i have clear so meny test and interviews but still jobless there is no merit in this country i passed railway test under FPSC for SIGNAL AND TELLECOM ENGINEER i applied one year ago passed it, now i came to know that railway has taken back that vacancies. so much disappointment 2 year passed my graduation not get job of 10k why i did this engr. so engr and doc do?

[QUOTE=Unique;179150]well Mr Ranjha
You are right in your opinion that having a background of Science/Engineering imparts analytical skills that helps you deal in detecting and solving a social problem, but I strongly believe that if a student has an ultimate aim of doing CSS he/she should not go for Medicine/Engineering rather he/she should opt for social sciences and humanities. It's far easy for a good student to excel in CSS if he has a degree in social sciences bcz CSS in its essence tests how well educated is a candidte regarding society. However if ''that'' good student first does Med/Engg then he has to work more in preparing for CSS.[/QUOTE]

Bro i never meant to say that ppl coming from background of social sciences or Arts are not talented enough. My point is that unfortunately our educational system for Arts n social science group hardly has to offer anything which helps develop analytical skills required for finding solutions. So i still ll say that engineering offers u good enough practice to help build ur abilities to utilize them to their fullest. What goods our system imparts to a person doing BA???? I never found one. I know i did my BA pvt wid maximum of 48 hours of prep for all the papers nd i scored more than 90% of the candidates coming after 2 yrs of college studies. Here my point is not that im anything better than they were. My reservations is with da system coz im sure that college staff n system of those 90% students had not motivated them enough even fr a 48 hrs study in 2 whole yearz!!

No offence meant. Dese r just my views nd i own them
Regards

Css is like a gamble,simply by appearing in the exam doesn't guarantee that you'll clear it in the first go so one should always have a backup plan,its not that we simply burnt our boats.At the moment,I am looking for a job and at the same time studying for the post-graduation exam and everyone else is following the same path.

Imdad is pretty right....in times like these, you cannot stay at a single place...i mean those who consider getting a job or going for masters the end of life, they should reconsider again!

these days you have to try for every option that you come across....and while you are on a job, you ll have to study and prepare yourselves for masters or study the material relevant to your field..

even securing a position in css would not mean that the struggle is any way near to being over...

dear...

as far as your assertion about BA or MA or even MSC is concerned, i fail to disagree with you...but being an engineer myself, i know the condition of engineers, and for that matter i can safely assume the standings of the doctors, as well...so even our Public universities are not doing any gud while producing engineers on a scale which may rightly be termed as "Thok k hisaab say"....

Joining is more related to a person's tendency and passion for the civil service than being dejected from his profession.
What if all engineers and doctors are offered lucrative jobs with more perks and salary. Will the number of engineers and doctors reduced amonth the candidates of css? The answer is no.

...

I always find it amusing when a few non-medical people out there, due to their ignorance & may I add, with a tinge of jealousy, point out fingers at us and say whatever they have to say, oh yeah...‘analytically’ = )

Keep it simple guys; be content with your educational background, come for this competitive exam if you find yourself having the required aptitude & passion and then let the results say the rest.

And about the authority, respect/fear, influence & blah blah; its very natural to have such insecurities in a mess of a country that we are in, so do gladly join bureaucracy, its your calling.

I can’t say anything about engineering, but like many other fields, gone are the good old days of medical profession, its now a hell of a struggle. And the struggle would have been easily bearable sans any frustration, had the reward been equal compared to the effort that doctors put in and what they go through. Its agonizing for the budding doctors to be the most over-worked and under-payed professionals in Pakistan.

Having said that, medical has its share of some big time pluses too, but thats not the point of discussion here.

I totally agree with Omer, it all comes down to 'what you want'.

It depends from person to person, everyone has their reasons. Sometimes you get oddballs like me who have to do it jus cuz its a family thing.

Also a more relevant question would be regarding the concept of civil servants, to me its absurd and makes little sense. All over the world we have insititutions that train individual for their specific jobs and they progress in their careers through their accomplishments, hiring an engineer or a doctor as a police officer and ignoring an ordinary policeman who has been doing the job for much longer time makes the process extremely disfunctional and is one of the main reasons for corruption at the lowest ranks.

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;179198]Bro i never meant to say that ppl coming from background of social sciences or Arts are not talented enough. My point is that unfortunately our educational system for Arts n social science group hardly has to offer anything which helps develop analytical skills required for finding solutions. So i still ll say that engineering offers u good enough practice to help build ur abilities to utilize them to their fullest. What goods our system imparts to a person doing BA???? I never found one. I know i did my BA pvt wid maximum of 48 hours of prep for all the papers nd i scored more than 90% of the candidates coming after 2 yrs of college studies. Here my point is not that im anything better than they were. My reservations is with da system coz im sure that college staff n system of those 90% students had not motivated them enough even fr a 48 hrs study in 2 whole yearz!!

No offence meant. Dese r just my views nd i own them
Regards[/QUOTE]


It's just a discussion, so I will not mean it offence in any condition. I myself fully agree with your views and endorse them but When I said a ''degree in social science or arts'' , I never meant the typical Pakistani two years BA. Humanities and social sciences have never been considered an option by students in Pakistan. You were able to score more than 90% BA students while appearing in Private. Who were those BA students? Majority of students who score more than 80% marks go for Medicine or Engineering in Govt sector i.e Govt Med Colleges or U.E.Ts. If they fail, they would like to go for Private MCs or EUs if they can afford to pay for their heavy fee. If they can't afford they would go for allied fields -- med stdents will go for dentistry, pharmacy or clinical psychology blah blah, Engg students MAY go for DAE/B.Tech. First they will struggle for Govt Colleges 4 these allied disciplines. If they fail, they would go 4 Private ones depending upon their economic condition. If they don't find their position, still majority will prefer to go for BBA, ACCA or CA things. The residue would go for some BSc degree. And those ppl who don't find solace anywhere in this battle, who were never exposed to good schooling who never had a chance to uplift their knowledge who were doing things other than studies -- even working for earning, Or if we want we may say those who have the least ''abilities'' ----------------------- they go for BA. This is not the case in Modern World, even a BA ( usually 4 yrz ) student is exposed to a variety of subjects in Liberal Arts, General Science and Humanities before he is offered a specialisation in one field. There, people go for hUMANITIES OR sOCIal sciences by CHOICE not by CHANCE. So , it's a matter of perception. No doubt, Social Sciences and Humanities ( except Law, Psychology, Economicsn etc ) don't prepare you for a quick market driven job as do Engineering or Medicine but their meanings of these subjects are entirely different in other cultures. Student personalities are properly investigated,their interests/abilities are studied before they opt any major.
Regards:cry