@ ALI AHMED SYED

This 'assumption' that you are proposing is not true. These matters are handled with merit. Let me elucidate with the help of an analogy. A 17 grade lecturer who is selected for a Fulbright scholarship, goes to a US University completes his Phd has a better chance of promotion that other of his ilk purely due to the fact that he has had an opportunity of studying in a world class institution. Does Pakistan have any facility such as "Fort Leavenworth" ????? No, so conjuring up false notions that officers going their take a pledge of allegience to the US ARMy is nothing but bovine poop and hols zero credence.

Many of our NOCs from SSG (Navy, Army And Airforce) recently went to Fort Bragg (home of the US Special Forces) and John f Kennedy Special Warfare Center for specialist training. So by ur logic, a good percentage of these NOCs should become generals by the yr 2020????

Our famed Air Force hero M.M. Alam went to France, US, UK, Australia, and Germany for such trainings. He retired as an Air commodore, an equivalent of a Brig in the Army. This is in stark contrast of ur theory which is seriously flawed.

PAKISTAN ARMED FORCES ko galliyaan dena band karo, Nahi tou.........

so there should be no accountability for Armed Person. is that what you saying ? are you familiar with Islamic concept of justice?

see what the Glorious Quran-e-Majeed says about Justice:

"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression" (5:2)

"And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8)

"You who believe stand steadfast before God as witness for (truth and) fairplay" (4:135)

In Islamic concept of justice, everyone is accountable, no one is above the Law, the divine Law.see the Life of beloved Prophet and khulf-e-rashdeen.

the Great caliph Umar(ra) arrested the commander-in-chief of Armed forces on charges of corruption, brought before public gathering and tied him through his turban,on enquiry He was acquitted because charges were Proved to be false, and do you know who was the commander-in-chief ? the Greatest General of Islam Hazrat Khalid bin Walid(ra), the saaf-ul-Allah. after the arrest sahaba karam(ra) requested the Great Umar(ra) not to take action against him(ra) as it would benefit the enemies of Islam and would effect the morale of muslim army. the Great Umar(ra) said shura (court/Qazi) will decide, i am afraid of Allah.

This is called Justice, its upto you either to follow Allah, Quran, sunnah of Prophet(PBUH) and actions of Khulf-e-Rashdeen or the other way, which is destruction in both material and eternal lives.

the Glorious Quran says
"When a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messanger, it does not behove a believer, man or woman, to have choice in their matter. One who disobeys Allah and His Messanger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." (33:36)

Again the Glorious Quran-e-Majeed says
"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you". [The Quran 5:48]

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Forget safety.Live where you fear to live.Destroy your reputation.Be notorious

Paa jee main shareeat dee nahin khuda dee lathi dee gal kitee, thora samjhain baat ko . Khuda kee lathi sab pe barabar chalti hai, awam, america, foji, siasatdan, molvie, musalman, ghair musalman, koi bhi. Khuda kee laathi kaa waar samajhne ke liye shareeat parhne kee nahin aankhen aur dimaagh kholne kee zaroorat hai, khud hee pata lag jaaye gaa kis pe chal rahi hai .

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

That was basically a reply to a query raised by usmanamjad87, the query and subject matter of debate was:
"It is said that there is some agreement between US and Pakistan on higher promotions in armed forces by wish of US. Is it true or not?"

I pointed out that training in the US as a possible cause of influence on Army Promotions and I believe the fact that US has an influence in every sphere of our country's policies and army couldn't be singled out as free from such influence.

Now come to the real debate pro-army and anti-army stance. This issue and debate swept every discussion topic in recent days and remained inconclusive or rather derailed to extreme personal attacks. I am not against army as an institution but I believe army must be questioned on their incompetencies, corruption and illegal/unlawfull activities. You could notice the fact that this criticism raised after Abbot operation. That operation exposed army impotentness of tackling such a grave situation. Majority of Pakistani people are embarrassed by that operation. We were pround of our army strength and power but after that we are hapless. Eliminate political leadership as we never expect something positive from them.

If army is not answerable of that disaster than who? If Abbot Operation was a drama to defame army, as alleged, then why army/agencies reluctant to expose that drama? From whom we seek reason/answer of that blunder? Criticize and question army on their blunders with intent to rectify the institution. Moreover, I am not considering army as an enemy of Pakistan rather I blieve that a complete restructuring and reengineering of the institution is highly needed. Faults must be realised and accepted if we want a cure. If not realised imminently I feared we will be caught in some bigger disaster in future due to this absurd army glorification.

lol, I enlightened by your reply that I have presented some sort of theory thing. Basically, that was a response, coupled by some figures, to the query raised by the fellow member. American trained our army personnel and certainly they have their own goals as a super power. Are they providing huge military and civil aid to Pakistan for free? Never, those dollars brought a great deal of influence as wel.

Regards,

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“There is no God but You (Allah Almighty), You are far exalted and above all weaknesses, and I was indeed the wrongdoer”. AL-QURAN

I'm not sure if there is any relation b/w promotion in Pak army and training at Fort Leavenworth etc,but I'm damn sure about American hand in Empowering,promoting and relegating Army personnel according to their free will,they pressurize Pakistan Govt in doing so.Case in point: Hamid gul,Javed nasser and nadeem taj,all were relegated by the then presidents of Pakistan per American wish.

I am aware of and am personally impressed of the Islamic code of justice. You dont have to remind me of that. I didnt point out to army's immunity entirely in this regard. I simply reposed a question to you, who was basically implying that army is answerable to the Executive and has to function accordingly. What executive? The one that was installed by the Americans, and is being sponsored by them to this day- and hence is- answerable to it only. In such a scenario, where our country is being sold out piecemeal every day- what do you expect the only credible, strongest institution to do?
Mere criticism wont do. You can only do that if you also have solutions. Have you devised any alternative to army intervention (albeit an intelligent, covert one this time)?

Lol it is indeed a controversial issue these days Ahmed because it has divided an already torn nation. And so it was 'supposed' to; its a scheme well-planned. You know, I am all for accountability. But once you get the insight of the workings of the Pakistan military, you will also agree that its a very ideologically driven army (opposite of an army like Turkey's that is secular, and very pro-West). Now, this army has its own system of checks and balances. This was necessitated due to a very shabby infrastructure, and confused, clashing ideologies on behalf of civilians from the onset of Pakistan's life. Agreed this system is not 'transparent' if thats what you want because of the nature of this institution and its delicate relation to Pakistan's security. But trust me, this country would not survive one more hour, let alone day, if the same army doesnt do its work of safeguarding as well as checking for moles.
I also understand your feelings as a Pakistani wrt Abbt event and that you had expected more out of this army. It was embarrassing because we knew the world was watching. But know, that every system has its loopholes that can be trespassed. We arent sure OBL was there that night. USA itself is 'officially' 99.9% sure Why should we Pakistanis start believing its a 100% then? If he wasnt there that night our army cannot say it out loud to the Americans without some preliminary work on it. But if he really was there, there are still questions regarding his relationship to Pakistan- was he really a friend or a foe? If it was the prior, then our nation is quick to blame our double policy with USA. But you see, this is bound to happen if we are asked to revert our foreign policy wrt Afghan Talibans at gun point- when previously we and the Americans helped build them. The americans were officially 'ok' if not great, with those guys until Sep 10, 2001. But they expected us to change our FP just because they decided to. To top it, they selected Mushy to do their bidding who did it unquestioningly for the most part. You know, answers to these complex questions arent simple. There are many 'ifs' and 'buts' enroute. The army cannot talk openly about sensitive issues that it has knowledge of. The day it does ( and Im sure one day it will), all Pakistanis will have to tighten their belts for upcoming wrath.

P.S
personal insults; well if you're referring to that one particular 'dodo' i am sorry to have even spoken to, rest assured the rest of us dont really mudfling at each other)

Regards,

I posted (although it was not for you)

Army should be accountable to the law of land and to its supreme commander (unlucky we, its Zardari now) .

You replied:

No one is above the law
So when the judiciary, executive, legislature and the public all are silent and helpless-who is gonna ensure this country at least stays intact or fight off aggression?

Now it is explicit from your above post that Army is sacrilege and criticizing it is a taboo, and it is not accountable and it is even above the LAW.

due to the flaws in Judicial system and incompetent executive, Army could not be treated as a Holy cow. Instead of strengthening the institutions you are going to destroy them by recognizing the autocracy of Army. once again i remind you, in Islamic Judicial system every one is accountable to the LAW/courts/shura . Due to the incompetency of individuals you are going to negate the Islamic Judicial system given by beloved Prophet(PBUH) 1400 hundred years ago.

even Zardari is corrupt, incompetent and not suitable for presidency still the law of the land and Islamic shariat gives him the authority to ask Army chief for his actions as a supreme commander of Armed forces.

I gave the example of Umar(ra) the great, to make you clear that no one is above the law, you can find thousands of examples in the pure lives of shahaba karam(ra).

Try to be Liberal , your stance is self contradictory , and if you belong to the family of Armed forces, then sorry . this discussion is over, you not gonna changed, its not your fault , all the bunch of lies and fairy tales of bravery have obsessed you.
Allah bless.

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Forget safety.Live where you fear to live.Destroy your reputation.Be notorious

You said,
Army should be accountable to the law of land and to its supreme commander (unlucky we, its Zardari now) .

I objected to the part regarding Supreme Commander. What Supreme Commander?, I Said. The one who reminds us of Yazid? Or may even be worse than Yazid? Then I guess, you mean Hazrat Imam Hussain should also have given into pressures of ‘law of land’ as imposed by Yazid? Yazid’s position was very much legal in nature- his father was also Caliph. But Imam Hussain did not pledge under him due to his character. Today we are faced with the same issue. Whether to follow a Yazid or not.

Secondly, you talked about ‘accountability of army to law of land’. When did it breach this law in 4 years? They are watching silently as the ugly keeps rolling. Human error or negligence may be ascribed to them but not breach of law.

Our beloved Islamic system also makes no distinction between the soldiers and the rulers In fact, a Caliph MUST also be a soldier in order to gain the perspective for defense of land, as well as sense of patriotism. He MUST have seen the hardships of battle field before sitting on the velvet bench The same Shariah, believes in the adage, “May the best man rule”. The best of the lot we have right now- are NOT the incompetent politicians.
Most Pakistanis STILL trust the soldiers more than the politicians. That’s a fact, and facts aren’t restricted to CSS forum members opinions. So if democracy is rule of the majority- aren’t we politically correct here? And that’s all because they realize the army still produces Yasir Abbas’ while the politicians never have.

Lastly, I haven’t had soldiers in my family for the last 10 generations. I don’t know of any before that. But I can pick out the best of the worst and for the welfare of this country, we all should. Some still stick to ‘law of land’ and technicalities.

We always listen that Chief of Army Staff is appointed after consultation with USA. Once Gen. (R) Hameed Gul revealed in his interview that he could not get the premier post of COAS as USA officials had reservations on him.

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A successful person is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that other throw at him. (David Brinkley)

Your example of Hazrat Imam Hussan(ra) and Caliph Ameer Yazid has nothing to do with the topic "all human beings are equal in the eyes of law, the Law of Allah " .
secondly you have compared Pakistan Army to the Great Imam Syedina Hazrat Imam Hussan(ra), what a Joke !!!
The Great Imam was Truthful, helpless , and innocent.He(ra) laid his life on his stance.He(ra) was free from all hypocrite thoughts. He(ra) never murdered anyone, never harm anyone, always spread teachings of love and humanity.spent a pious life according to the Principle laid by his Grandfather(PBUH).
Now see your Army and ISI . the history of torture and brutal killings can be traced back to the inception of this country. 1948 war in kashmir ,they killed thousands of innocent hindus,and even nationalist muslims in kashmir. 1971 in east pakistan, they killed almost 1 million bangali muslims , women were raped, corpse were burnt...world was witnessing a spectacle of atrocities done by Hitler on Jews. in every military coup they torture, killed political parties workers. the raging in elections. now come to the current situation, they are killing Pashtuns, balochs,nationalists,intellectuals,journalists , even teachers and university professors are not spared, they kill everyone whoever crosses the absurd line drawn by them.there atrocities needs a full fledged book dear, not possible here to pen them down. they ruined this country, every institution was destroyed by them, presidency,PM house,Judiciary , election commission etc etc (long long long list)

now tell me honestly :
1-where is your Patriot and brave Army when Us Drones are violating country sovereignty and mostly killing innocent Pakistanis.(do not tell me about Government, the real power is in there hand, zardari ,PPP etc is Just a puppet)?
2-why they could not resist when Us raided the heart of Pakistan (abbotabad)?
3-they have not formulated policy to counter terrorism.
4-they are failed to counter talibans.
5-why are they sucking blood(money) of this poor nation if they could not defend?
6-why would be they living in barracked Garrisons,with all comforts and luxurious facilities when civilians and common soldiers are dying in bomb blasts?
7-BMW's,foreign visits,polo grounds,parties,plots, banglows,swimming pools, Garrison clubs...etc etc they could not defend , they do not have the right to suck the blood of this poor nation.

so now on what bases have you compared them to the commander of faithful Hazrat Imam Hussain (ra) ? and "10000 times worst than Yazid" more suited them.
and let me tell you, i hate Zaradari , but he is puppet in the hands of ISI and Army. and our Army is Puppet in the hand of USA, it is Army and military dictators that sold our national respect and sovereignty to USA, see the tenure of General Zia and General musharraf. and now see the civilian Leaders, bhutto resist all the USA pressure on Pakistan nuclear programme for years and finally succeed in his mission,if it were General Kyani or any General,it would have easily succumb to the American Pressure, see Nawaz sharif conducted nuclear blasts resisted the worst pressure of USA,If it was any General, Pakistan would never ever become a Nuclear nation. there are thousand examples where civilians leaders in any field have proved themselves more patriot and able than those uniformed persons.

I personally do not like Pakistani politicians,Army, bureaucrats ,Media ,Judiciary . I like the person/individual/institution who follow the book of Allah the Glorious Quran and act according to the divine law.

Allah bless.

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Forget safety.Live where you fear to live.Destroy your reputation.Be notorious