Sexual Harrasment: Fault of the Women?
 

In “A Closer look at sexual harassment laws” published in the Express Tribune blogs on May 29, Fouzia Saeed pointed out that much has been accomplished since the President signed the sexual harassment laws in 2010. The author lauded the speed with which the laws were drafted and passed and pointed out that over 1000 cases have been dealt with so far. Anyway, going through the comments section, I was alarmed to see that instead of recognizing the problem and the work being done to overcome it, some people actually seemed to be trying to justify harassment in the name of Islam!

The very first was a gentleman who began by claiming that Western societies had more crime than Eastern (read Islamic) ones and then moved on to say that he wanted an Islamic state and not a secular one. He was seconded by another gentleman who declared that women had no business outside the house. Another user proclaimed that most women are pathetic and dress “exotically” (whatever that means); therefore, men are automatically attracted to them. And then he went on a rant about women wanting to control men etc.

So in their version of a so-called Islamic society, these gentlemen’s answer to sexual harassment would be to ban women from leaving their homes? That’s like banning people from defending their property against robbers! Would a truly Islamic society turn a blind eye to the harassment of women just because they are unaccompanied by a mehram instead of punishing those responsible? Because now we are talking about a very basic human right: the right to security. Islam recognizes this right and I really can’t really get my head around the idea that Muhammad (PBUH) would have let someone get away with assaulting a woman just because she was uncovered or unaccompanied!

Pakistan is rife with such problems because before there can be any cure, you must admit the existence of the disease. And in our country, some people are so blinded by prejudice and so accustomed to thinking of women as disposable objects that they either deny the existence of the problem outright or worse, attempt to transfer the blame to women! But let’s get this straight, women are NOT objects, they are human beings and deserve to be respected as such.

Finally, to the men who are “automatically attracted” to skimpy clothing, Islam commands you to ‘lower your gaze and guard your modesty’! It is funny really, how in our male-dominated society, only Islamic laws are twisted to maintain male-dominance while all parts of Islam dealing with the rights of women are conveniently ignored. And even if Islam had nothing so ay about it, get a grip on yourself. Are you perpetually drunk? Or under the influence of other drugs?

Summing it up, women getting harassed just because some perverts cannot control their feelings is unacceptable; it must stop and if these animals (for creatures with minds so weak can hardly be called men) cannot control themselves, they must be punished. The argument that women themselves are responsible for all violence or harassment is outdated and has no basis at all in Islam. Simply put, it’s not the women’s fault!

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The Pathetic use of Great Islamic Laws just for petty interests is the epidemic that has spread in our society like was centuries ago in Christianity and Judaism.
I am waiting for that time when instead of debating on If Pardah is necessary for a woman or character, Muslims will be arguing on whether we have fulfilled our duties or not, whether we are true Muslims or not instead of declaring others as sinful.

First of all, the argument that West has more antiwomen crimes can be averted on the ground of their reporting. Almost every case is reported there while in Pakistan almost 95% cases are tried to conceal.
Secondly, our so-called muslim brothers chant the slogan of Islamic-state only when the issues of women is discussed. I never heard anything like when the affairs of corruption, banking interest, nepotism, rigged elections, legislation, fuedalism, violence, sectariansim etc are discussed. Nobody talks to solve these issues through islamic principles.
Thirdly, men having vice in hearts can find the eroticism even in divine books. there is not any fault in dressing or appearance. So problem lies within themselves not in women's dressing and their outing without mehram..

this is our so called islamic society:(

In a true ISlamic society a woman can go from one end of the country to another end without any mehram along her and she was completely save.This was the real example of Islamic society in the first century of islmic state.there is no question of pardah while providing security to a woman in islamic state because if the woman is not muslim she can not be forced to have pardah but she has eqaul right of protection as a pardah dar woman has.Therefore irrespective of pardah security for woman is generally essentail in all socities and duty of Islamic state specifically.
In quran when Almighty addressd the muslims for pardah he first addressd man to lower down his eyes and then he orderd woman to cover herslf.so pardah is first essential for man then woman.if a man does not bother to look at a female infront of him after having one sight then sexual harrasment can be controlled at the first step.
It is woman own matter wheather she wants to cover her or not because whatever deeds she does in this world she ll be responsible in the next world.No body is going to force her for any act because
Islam says every body is responsible for his or her act and there is no force full conversion in Deen ISlam for any body.

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You are absolutely right. On this earth there is not any single women who want to be sexual abuse either she is in well western fashion dresses or in Hijab.

If a woman is not secure in the grave how come she will be secured in the world ??

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;443873]If a woman is not secure in the grave how come she will be secured in the world ??[/QUOTE]

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In that case, this is not confined to women only.
Even male corpses are stolen by medical persons or people practicing black magic.

And sexual harassment can hardly be women fault in a society like ours .
How can it be fault of a working woman who is clad in a decent dress and keeps herself to her work only but a couple of her male colleagues while talking among themselves cut cheap jokes, loud enough that they reach the woman' ear...
And its very tricky this way, apparently nothing is being said or done directly to her, yet, such a behavior is a cause of discomfort for the other.
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Dressing, body language provocative nahe bhi tou, some people are just mentally sick, wo wesa he behave kertey hn.

Women: seems like you are challenging Muhammad PBUH's order of not leaving house without a mehram just for the sake of getting western freedom where harassment is reported, in disguise of "making an Ideal Islamic society"...stop living in a fools paradise...Do you know the meaning of Women? its mean a precious being worth concealing...Have you not seen the "western reported society" with all freedom and strict laws but women are tried like clothes...They are socially a disaster in glossy skyscrappers...Do all want to get tried and reported??? There is no freedom in islam without limits...Accompanying with mehram was even compulsory in his PBUH's time, do u expect a better time ahead??? and "vice in men" is concerned, than common sense is there wont be a response until there is no stimuli...and its a common fact that a Muslim man with worst character would lower his gaze when he sees a girl in Abaya/Burqa bcs this reflects as an effort to conceal which is truly respected in our culture. and accept the fact that Women are weak which created a need to make failed western laws like discussed in Express tribune, you have a better option to choose Islamic solutions... I am not conservative but let my sisters be not fooled by myopic freedom...

Regards

[QUOTE=peacepakistan;443916]Women: seems like you are challenging Muhammad PBUH's order of not leaving house without a mehram just for the sake of getting western freedom where harassment is reported, in disguise of "making an Ideal Islamic society"...stop living in a fools paradise...Do you know the meaning of Women? its mean a precious being worth concealing...Have you not seen the "western reported society" with all freedom and strict laws but women are tried like clothes...They are socially a disaster in glossy skyscrappers...Do all want to get tried and reported??? There is no freedom in islam without limits...Accompanying with mehram was even compulsory in his PBUH's time, do u expect a better time ahead??? and "vice in men" is concerned, than common sense is there wont be a response until there is no stimuli...and its a common fact that a Muslim man with worst character would lower his gaze when he sees a girl in Abaya/Burqa bcs this reflects as an effort to conceal which is truly respected in our culture. and accept the fact that Women are weak which created a need to make failed western laws like discussed in Express tribune, you have a better option to choose Islamic solutions... I am not conservative but let my sisters be not fooled by myopic freedom...

Regards[/QUOTE]

Brother, I suggest you read my article again, because you are using the exact same distorted rhetoric used by men to justify actions that they themselves know are wrong.

If on the Day of Judgement, you are questioned about not lowering your gaze as Allah SWT commanded, will you tell Him that you would have if there had been no stimuli?

Further, your post shows a deep rooted hatred of Western society. Women have never been as free as they have are in the West right now and your arguments are not only weak, they are just rubbish. If you don't believe me, pick up a newspaper and mark reports about violence against women. Do this for a year, then compare with the West and you will know.

And about mehram, times have changed bro. The world is now [B]much much safer[/B] than it[B] ever was in history. [/B]Yes, just because you hear about more things (because of the media), it does not mean that things have taken a turn for the worst. Before you comment, please go over the history of the last 1400 years and you will know that the world has never been so peaceful in history as it is now.

It is now much safer for a women to travel alone than in the Prophet Muhammadh's (PBUH) time, when even [B]Men couldn't travel Alone[/B].

[QUOTE=azure;443905]-
In that case, this is not confined to women only.
Even male corpses are stolen by medical persons or people practicing black magic.

And sexual harassment can hardly be women fault in a society like ours .
How can it be fault of a working woman who is clad in a decent dress and keeps herself to her work only but a couple of her male colleagues while talking among themselves cut cheap jokes, loud enough that they reach the woman' ear...
And its very tricky this way, apparently nothing is being said or done directly to her, yet, such a behavior is a cause of discomfort for the other.
-
Dressing, body language provocative nahe bhi tou, some people are just mentally sick, wo wesa he behave kertey hn.[/QUOTE]

Do you think any society gave respect to woman including ISLAM ??? I don't think so ....

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444194]Do you think any society gave respect to woman including ISLAM ??? I don't think so ....[/QUOTE]


You have to keep in mind that the rights given to women by Islam, 1400 years ago were really extraordinary. In no other society at the time did women enjoy so much freedom and respect. But in the intervening years, the world has passed us by.

Dear this rhetoric has a firm backing of Muhammad PBUH's saying unlike yours taken from biased western media with implicit designs for women and their freedom....or u want to say ..Mehram's compulsion is outdated? han? clarify ur stance...

You think todays is SAFER time? then for ur kind info, 90000 forced rapes are reported annually in your SAFE USA.. 13000 in UK, 10500 in France. talking about this freedom??? He's not a newyorker who is not robbed, may be a hoax??? that Newyork is on mars where after 8, you are prone to ferocious attacks by organised muggers ???? I guess Dr. Affia is also a women kept in male prison without even respecting her gender rights? and this Safer world dint voice anything against it. talk some sense please...I wouldnt call your argument a rubbish because this is what a myopic pro-western society could think, just the pros, and in blind race towards these Freedom, they are rapped. I accept women are never more free in the past than today but now its you to accept that women were not this much vulnerable in the past than today..

and as a muslim, do respect Islamic laws. Islam has created domains of freedom, both for men and women...which are not OUTDATED...Women are equal being to men but in different domain...yes they can work for economic betterment of country but in men-free work place...because Shaitan and Nafs are with us to astray...Best society is which stands on islamic fundamentals and then incorporate scientific and behavioral management that will suerly be prosperous...

and finally choose ur words "rubbish, rhetoric" with care...may be its the rubbish thats the reality...Reality is different than Movies and films which West use for its society advertisement and which lure you all Freedom Fighters.

Miss malmeena! Kindly comment with logic! otherwise this forum is not fb talking wd old buddies abt schooldays....Its Islam who give women its being, its life other wise women are murdered, buried alive and sold.. World History is full of men's achievements even b4 Renaissance leave aside wt happened with them b4 Hazrat Muhammad PBUH. there were women only in history when talking about royal families or freedom fighters like john of Arc etc. other wise where was woman??? Islam has given women a domain to manage that is home, objective of raising and nurturing future in the form of childern, gave her a respect which this being never enjoyed...Do you know that wifes of deceased father are divided among childern as their mistresses in Dark ages??? Islam gave them the most venerating position in a person's life i.e Mother....what else is your respects definition??? i guess prophethood han???

[QUOTE=peacepakistan;444245]Dear this rhetoric has a firm backing of Muhammad PBUH's saying unlike yours taken from biased western media with implicit designs for women and their freedom....or u want to say ..Mehram's compulsion is outdated? han? clarify ur stance...

You think todays is SAFER time? then for ur kind info, 90000 forced rapes are reported annually in your SAFE USA.. 13000 in UK, 10500 in France. talking about this freedom??? He's not a newyorker who is not robbed, may be a hoax??? that Newyork is on mars where after 8, you are prone to ferocious attacks by organised muggers ???? I guess Dr. Affia is also a women kept in male prison without even respecting her gender rights? and this Safer world dint voice anything against it. talk some sense please...I wouldnt call your argument a rubbish because this is what a myopic pro-western society could think, just the pros, and in blind race towards these Freedom, they are rapped. I accept women are never more free in the past than today but now its you to accept that women were not this much vulnerable in the past than today..
[/QUOTE]

Since you are on the CSS forum, I'm assuming that you do intend to attempt it. If that is indeed the case, then I'm amazed at your lack of historical knowledge. Just run a search on Google about what usually happened after a siege was over and the city had fallen; you will understand what true violence is.

Look at crime rates with respect to the massive increase in population over the centuries. In the middle ages, people went for Hajj in massive caravans for fear of being looted. A lone man was as much in danger as a lone women, hence the necessity of being accompanies by a mehram.

Read about the bloody moments of history, the massacres committed centuries ago, the slaughter of innocents just for the pleasure of a young king, enslavement, RAPE and MURDER of ENTIRE CITIES and you will know that the world is BY FAR SAFER THAN EVER BEFORE.

The so called hero Muhammad Bin Qasim took captive the ladies of the household of the King of Debal and handpicked his daughters to send to the Caliph in Baghdad.

Bandits ran free in the countryside, raping and plundering at will. And Arabia was no exception.

Not only women, but a stupid person like you, so full of himself, going to Mecca by himself, secure in the knowledge that he was a macho man and not a "kamzor aurat" would have been robbed and murdered on the road in no time.



[QUOTE]and as a muslim, do respect Islamic laws. Islam has created domains of freedom, both for men and women...which are not OUTDATED...Women are equal being to men but in different domain...yes they can work for economic betterment of country but in men-free work place...because Shaitan and Nafs are with us to astray...Best society is which stands on islamic fundamentals and then incorporate scientific and behavioral management that will suerly be prosperous...
[/QUOTE]
Control your Nafs then, if you are such a strong man.

[QUOTE]and finally choose ur words "rubbish, rhetoric" with care...may be its the rubbish thats the reality...[/QUOTE]
Beta the REALITY is that people live you are only afraid of the power of women and when they have no REAL argument, they try to USE my great religion Islam for their own purposes. Your arguments are still rubbish.

[QUOTE] there were women only in history when talking about royal families or freedom fighters like john of Arc etc. other wise where was woman??? [/QUOTE]
Joan of Arc wasn't royal, genius, she was just a commoner. Plus, she lived in the 15th century, not before the advent of Islam. Third, there's a big chance that she was just a LEGEND. Polish up on your history bro, movies dekh ke nai, books par ke. Ab CSS ke papers mein Troy ki kahani na likh ke a jana lol :P

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444226]You have to keep in mind that the rights given to women by Islam, 1400 years ago were really extraordinary. In no other society at the time did women enjoy so much freedom and respect. But in the intervening years, the world has passed us by.[/QUOTE]


I'm not talking about 1400 years back Islam. I'm talking about this age we're living in. Do you see Islam is practiced in it's true essence now a days anywhere??

If Islamic rules are not liked to be implemented then how do you expect Muslims practicing it? Look brother , be true a little bit I'm not arguing against Islam and lest not I do. But all filth is found within Muslim society. Why I didn't say western society, because I don't want and even like them to compare with Islam.

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444416]I'm not talking about 1400 years back Islam. I'm talking about this age we're living in. Do you see Islam is practiced in it's true essence now a days anywhere??

If Islamic rules are not liked to be implemented then how do you expect Muslims practicing it? Look brother , be true a little bit I'm not arguing against Islam and lest not I do. But all filth is found within Muslim society. Why I didn't say western society, because I don't want and even like them to compare with Islam.[/QUOTE]


I've already said that the world has passed us by in the last 1400 years ago. Women were granted extraordinary by the standard of those times, but I do agree that these days, women are treated the worst in Muslim societies. But that doesn't mean the problem is with Islam; that just means that Muslims are rotten.

And indeed Muslims today are the worst kind of people, refusing to acquire knowledge, spread violence and hate and completely resistant to any change. The world is moving fast and we need to move WITH IT.

But again, the fault is with the Muslims, not Islam, the religion of peace, which puts great emphasis on acquiring knowledge.

[QUOTE=cssravian;443839]You are absolutely right. On this earth there is not any single women who want to be sexual abuse either she is in well western fashion dresses or in Hijab.[/QUOTE]
Hijab parda for women in Islam in the light of Quran an Hadith

وَقُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ

Quran states: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms (24:31)


Hadit

Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:

‘Aisha used to say: “When (the Verse): “They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms,” was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.”

►Volume 6, Book 60, Number 282: (Sahih Bukhari)



i think this will be a very help full to discuss this topic, it is ought to a Muslim woman to cover her body and face according to Islamic point of view. and if all women follow the rule of Islam the cases of sexual harrasment will decrease....

[B]@peacepakistan[/B]

Avoid netspeak

[B]@All[/B]

[COLOR=Red]Avoid personal attacks during discussion.[/COLOR]Argue with logic instead of emotions.

Hmm. . . It depends!! There are 2 conditions (Zina bil Jabr) and (Zina bil Raza). And in most of the cases it's zina bil jabr due to uprising frustration in our society. My intentions are not to blame anyone and being totally unbiased i'll just say no one can make it without women's permission. . until unless women will not agree, a man cannot even think to touch her!!:excl: And one more thing to add here that Zina is (karz) and you'll have to pay it by any mean!!

[QUOTE=assassin007;444553]And in most of the cases it's zina bil jabr due to uprising frustration in our society. My intentions are not to blame anyone and being totally unbiased i'll just say no one can make it without women's permission. . until unless women will not agree, a man cannot even think to touch her!!:excl: [/QUOTE]

Seriously? Ever heard of rape?


@Shooting Star: point taken. I'm sorry :)

[QUOTE=alihashmatkhoso;444538]
i think this will be a very help full to discuss this topic, it is ought to a Muslim woman to cover her body and face according to Islamic point of view. and if all women follow the rule of Islam the cases of sexual harrasment will decrease....[/QUOTE]

And all believing men are ordered to[B] LOWER THEIR GAZE[/B]. A man who rapes a woman is a rapist, simple as that. And you know the punishment for a rapist in Islam, don't you?

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444555]Seriously? Ever heard of rape?


@Shooting Star: point taken. I'm sorry :)[/QUOTE]
oh come on. . this is 21st century and world has become a global village. . unluckily the figures are raising instead of falling and our media manipulate things very differently. . the recent example is of Uzma Ayub from peshawar. . i hope you've heard of her case?? if not than you must put a sight over it. . ??

[QUOTE=assassin007;444561]oh come on. . this is 21st century and world has become a global village. . unluckily the figures are raising instead of falling and our media manipulate things very differently. . the recent example is of Uzma Ayub from peshawar. . i hope you've heard of her case?? if not than you must put a sight over it. . ??[/QUOTE]

I've heard of the case, but I can't see how you went from there to claiming that women want to get raped.

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444733]I've heard of the case, but I can't see how you went from there to claiming that women want to get raped.[/QUOTE]
hey hey hold on bro you are totally getting it wrong. . . I just gave two phenomenons thats my personal view and i think you are lacking adults company?? Make some good friends with some experience. Take care

[QUOTE=assassin007;444759]hey hey hold on bro you are totally getting it wrong. . . I just gave two phenomenons thats my personal view and i think you are lacking adults company?? Make some good friends with some experience. Take care[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]And in most of the cases it's zina bil jabr due to uprising frustration in our society. My intentions are not to blame anyone and being totally unbiased i'll just say no one can make it without women's permission. . until unless women will not agree, a man cannot even think to touch her!![/QUOTE]

You said men can not harass women without their permission. It follows from your statement that women who get raped want to get raped. Am I right?

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444861]You said men can not harass women without their permission. It follows from your statement that women who get raped want to get raped. Am I right?[/QUOTE]
No wrong!! i just gave my own perception which is limited to me. look things are changing day by day and i am sure that you are mature enough to understand them. I'll simply give you the example of one of my colleague who had an affair few months ago. . .before they were just friends, then boyfriend and girl friend and so on. . . by the time they came to a state where both couldn't hold themselves and they just had an intercourse. Now here my friend did not even insisted her and she could have say no to him, but she didn't. . !! now what would you like to say?? there are several more examples like this which are existing in our society. . .better you should take a look around. And i'll definitely mention here again that content is my personal opinion so don't take it as something else. please . .

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444525]I've already said that the world has passed us by in the last 1400 years ago. Women were granted extraordinary by the standard of those times, but I do agree that these days, women are treated the worst in Muslim societies. But that doesn't mean the problem is with Islam; that just means that Muslims are rotten.

And indeed Muslims today are the worst kind of people, refusing to acquire knowledge, spread violence and hate and completely resistant to any change. The world is moving fast and we need to move WITH IT.

But again, the fault is with the Muslims, not Islam, the religion of peace, which puts great emphasis on acquiring knowledge.[/QUOTE]


(I didn't plead western society by saying that all filth lies in Muslims.My words should not be taken in wrong meanings to support secularism. West it self is filth and filth is invisible in filth.)


Agreed that Muslims are getting worst. This is because they follow the west. If we want to move with world then we should move with Islamic rules and regulations. There is a big space for movement to advancement with Islamic obligations. But I don't want a Muslim society to be secular and do whatever is done by non-Muslim societies just to be successful in the world. In fact Muslims are therefore getting worst because they left Islam and running after worldly success only.

And one thing more to add to your statement that a woman is secure more then the time of Hardhat MUHAMMAD Sallalahu alaihe wa sallam. NOT AGREED. Let me tell you that the Time of my beloved Prophet S.A.W.W was and off course is of no match to the before and after came times. It's ridiculous to compare secular eras with such a golden time.


What so called security is given by this modern world to women or even say to men ? Just vulgarity ? A woman in this modern age is therefore set free just to gain advantage of her being a woman. Evaluate from every field of life, she's used as a [COLOR=Navy]show piece[COLOR=Black]. Let me share here an easy example. A covered toffee is much saver from flies then a non covered one.


[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=Black]Don't bother of people, saying that a woman has nothing to do outside her home. Because this is true and truth never bothers. You replied to a brother to control your NAFS if you're such a good man but don't stop woman to go out. Tell me then how many of us would have control over nafs if Hardhat Muhammad (s.a.w.w) said that shaitaan is always there between a lonely man and woman. Are you more wiser then Prophet Muhammad ? Or your modern age is more worthy in sayings then Him ?
Control of Nafs is only performed with piety. Which I don't see in every one.


What thing compelled a woman to go out ?
If I'm let to chain those problems in words that how this modern age compelled women to go out of home just in the name of helping home economically or for other purpose (but actually for the sexual satisfaction of men) then believe me it would occupy much space and thousand of words to explain. Most important, no one here would agree cause almost all of us want unneeded out going of women.


Moreover, for instance, say a woman has right to go outside her home for any necessity i.e; to work , or travel etc. That right is already given by Islam with some set boundaries. Then she has to follow the way of Islam. And if you say that a non-Muslim woman, if , is not willing to veil then I suggest do in [COLOR=Blue]Rome as the Romans do[/COLOR]. If Muslim women are compelled to unveil their faces in some European countries forcefully and even she has to pay fine for veiling her-self then why not a non-Muslim women can be [COLOR=Blue]compelled[/COLOR] to do so according to Islamic rules ?
[/COLOR]
Ending with an urdu proverb (I don't know the English translation of it) that says " na rahega baans , na bajay gi baansury " . There wouldn't have been filth in the world if a women was not let to go out.

[QUOTE=assassin007;444866]No wrong!! i just gave my own perception which is limited to me. look things are changing day by day and i am sure that you are mature enough to understand them. I'll simply give you the example of one of my colleague who had an affair few months ago. . .before they were just friends, then boyfriend and girl friend and so on. . . by the time they came to a state where both couldn't hold themselves and they just had an intercourse. Now here my friend did not even insisted her and she could have say no to him, but she didn't. . !! now what would you like to say?? there are several more examples like this which are existing in our society. . .better you should take a look around. And i'll definitely mention here again that content is my personal opinion so don't take it as something else. please . .[/QUOTE]

Brother what your friends did was intercourse between two adults with mutual consent. That isn't what we are talking about. I understand what you are saying, there are exceptions, but don't you think that the the vast, vast majority of rapes are simply that: rapes?

Your initial statement was a little too generalized that's what created the confusion.

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444901]Brother what your friends did was intercourse between two adults with mutual consent. That isn't what we are talking about. I understand what you are saying, there are exceptions, but don't you think that the the vast, vast majority of rapes are simply that: rapes?

Your initial statement was a little too generalized that's what created the confusion.[/QUOTE]
That's the thing which i was trying to explain ya. . . see here how confidently you said that it was mutual consent b/w them but do you think in our society it would be just taken as mutual consent or maximum liberty??? of course not because it's a muslim dominated country and everybody will name this thing as (Zina) but zina bil raza, which happened by the permission of that girl. . . And now i ve taken point that what do you want say actually. . First of all we have to know that what are the reasons for which people are harassing women's even not caring of their age. . it's definitely frustration and the reason behind frustration is inflation. . means people are getting jobless and due to this they don't get married on time. And it becomes the reason for what they commit these sort of sins. Let's pray we can soon get rid of these things. Ameen.

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444885]West it self is filth and filth is invisible in filth.)
[/QUOTE]

And how is Western society filthy? They are more just than any Muslim country in the world. In fact, most Muslim countries, including our very own Islamic Republic are devoid of justice and without it, no nation can survive. Islam says that.

[QUOTE]Agreed that Muslims are getting worst. This is because they follow the west.
[/QUOTE]
Wrong, if we truly followed the West we would be where they are. Islam puts tremendous emphasis on education, human rights and most of all, JUSTICE. The West is way ahead of us in all three. In a sense, they are more Muslim than we are.

[QUOTE]And one thing more to add to your statement that a woman is secure more then the time of Hardhat MUHAMMAD Sallalahu alaihe wa sallam. NOT AGREED. Let me tell you that the Time of my beloved Prophet S.A.W.W was and off course is of no match to the before and after came times. It's ridiculous to compare secular eras with such a golden time. [/QUOTE]

Centuries back, when major cities fell to sieges, they were usually plundered and thousands of women raped and killed. The enslavement of women and children is age-old and this happened in Arabia too. The mercy of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is another thing, but do you deny that many females were taken captive? After Muhammad Bin Qasim took Debal, hundreds of women were enslaved. Some were sent to the the Caliph while the others were distributed among his men. Also remember that one of the reasons for the conflict was that ships carrying women and children had been captured by pirates.

Even during the lifetime of the Prophet PBUH, the interior of Arabia was an extremely dangerous place, both for men and women. The Hindu practice of sutee was banned only by the British upon taking control. Violence against women continued long after the advent of Islam and it was until the 19th century that women started fighting for their rights and laws were passed in many countries to protect them from abuse.

I said that women are safer now than they were 1400 years ago and I've provided evidence. Now please provide evidence to back up your claim.

[QUOTE]What so called security is given by this modern world to women or even say to men ? Just vulgarity ? A woman in this modern age is therefore set free just to gain advantage of her being a woman.[/QUOTE]
I've answered this question in the above paragraph. But lets just say you wouldn't want to live in the interior of Arabia in the 10th century, where, after a war between the Bedouin tribes, you may be carried off as a slave and forced to spend your life as a mistress. Now, would you?

Evaluate from every field of life, she's used as a [COLOR=Navy]show piece[COLOR=Black]. Let me share here an easy example. A covered toffee is much saver from flies then a non covered one.

This is nothing more than rhetoric. Why don't men cover themselves up? Or are only women toffees? BTW, are you a toffee?



[QUOTE]Don't bother of people, saying that a woman has nothing to do outside her home. Because this is true and truth never bothers.[/QUOTE]
So you are against women going out of their homes? BTW, if you clear the CSS exam, do you intend to work from home?

[QUOTE] You replied to a brother to control your NAFS if you're such a good man but don't stop woman to go out. Tell me then how many of us would have control over nafs if Hardhat Muhammad (s.a.w.w) said that shaitaan is always there between a lonely man and woman. [/QUOTE]
Islam commands men to lower their gaze. Which means they can lower their gaze? Right?

[QUOTE]compelled women to go out of home just in the name of helping home economically or for other purpose (but actually for the sexual satisfaction of men) [/QUOTE]
So women go out of their homes to satisfy men? Wow, you sure are intelligent!


[QUOTE]Ending with an urdu proverb (I don't know the English translation of it) that says " na rahega baans , na bajay gi baansury " . There wouldn't have been filth in the world if a women was not let to go out.
[/QUOTE]
There wouldn't be filth if the punishment for rape was death either.

[QUOTE=assassin007;444922]That's the thing which i was trying to explain ya. . . see here how confidently you said that it was mutual consent b/w them but do you think in our society it would be just taken as mutual consent or maximum liberty??? of course not because it's a muslim dominated country and everybody will name this thing as (Zina) but zina bil raza, which happened by the permission of that girl.[/QUOTE]

No matter how the society looks at it, its still sexual intercourse between two adults with mutual consent. But as I said, although there are some exceptions, they are negligible. Because everyday, girls, in some cases as young as 12 are brutally raped i.e. sexual intercourse without their consent. Just pick up any newspaper man and you will find heartrending stories. Like in Vehari, where a 13 year old was gang-raped. Talking of gang rapes, such cases have soared across Pakistan. Just run a search on Google and see for yourself.
[QUOTE]
First of all we have to know that what are the reasons for which people are harassing women's even not caring of their age. . it's definitely frustration and the reason behind frustration is inflation. . means people are getting jobless and due to this they don't get married on time. And it becomes the reason for what they commit these sort of sins. Let's pray we can soon get rid of these things. Ameen. [/QUOTE]

Ameen. But this is a different topic. Anyways, I do agree that economic conditions are to blame for the increasing frustration levels in today's youth. However, I believe that the fear of a death penalty, like in China will keep their frustration in check.

You call it freedom and liberty of choice when a beautiful lady is used in commercials and exaggerated advertisements, as a product for successful campaigning. You call it freedom.

The western culture has snatched the moral and ethical values from its people and you call it fashion, i am sorry but almost everyone is victim of it including me! The old house concept, where parents are thrown and left with nothing, you call it freedom and secularism! and most of people appreciate it. The women, today in western countries, is merely used as a product in the name of freedom! It has snatched the grace from women, but on contrary Islam protected women and provided her with best freedom!

I would say, a good man always treat her women with dignity! The rising trends of rapes and prostitution are because of liberty! Men must lower their gaze to get prevented from zina of eyes and women must get dressed rationally. These norms must be followed by men and women.

A very special statement, i have heard from alim is that "first attack of shaitan is on the HAYA of man and women". so one must get dressed rationally in order to be protected from the attack of devil.

Hassan bro, all fingers are not equal, keep your spirits high, dont loose your hope. Change is coming and things gonna be fine. we all love our mother's and sister's!

Have u heard that behind every successful man, there is a women?

In last i would, we should spread the teachings of women's right to all others, and to educate them regarding their obligations towards women folks, only it would reduce the current prevailing conditions.

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]And how is Western society filthy? They are more just than any Muslim country in the world. In fact, most Muslim countries, including our very own Islamic Republic are devoid of justice and without it, no nation can survive. Islam says that.[/QUOTE]

Islam taught Justice not west. I'm retained on my statement that muslims are getting worst not Islam. And indeed Islam is not responsible for the bad deeds of Muslims.
I told you filth is invisible in filth. All that glitters is not gold.





[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]Wrong, if we truly followed the West we would be where they are. Islam puts tremendous emphasis on education, human rights and most of all, JUSTICE. The West is way ahead of us in all three. In a sense, they are more Muslim than we are.[/QUOTE]


So you're going to decide who's Muslim and whose not? The word Muslim stands for those who trust in ALLAH and in HIS oneness and follow the way of Muhammad not the one who follow west.It stands not for those who are being number one in providing justice and human rights.


Alas! All illusion.:cry



[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]Centuries back, when major cities fell to sieges, they were usually plundered and thousands of women raped and killed. The enslavement of women and children is age-old and this happened in Arabia too. [/QUOTE]

:excl:That time west was not famous as Arabia or not even discovered that no such crimes were reported ? :laughing


[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]The mercy of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is another thing, but do you deny that many females were taken captive?[/QUOTE]

Me acha hun ya bura apnay liye hun
Me khud ko nahe dekhta auro ki nazar say..

I don't read altered history or unauthentic.

Retain to a single statement. Either support Muhammad or deny His Excellency. On one hand you're indeed insulting Him by altered history and on other hand calling your-self His follower. Nonsense.
And provide a prove that women were captive that time.
Do not quote from Ibn Ishaq's book of first biography of Prophet Muhammad(saas).


[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925] After Muhammad Bin Qasim took Debal, hundreds of women were enslaved. Some were sent to the the Caliph while the others were distributed among his men. Also remember that one of the reasons for the conflict was that ships carrying women and children had been captured by pirates.[/QUOTE]

Then why did most of Hindu women made statues of Bin Qasim and started adoring it. Becuse they were made captive and raped ??
Who sent bin Qasim to help those women and on who's appeal ? If the reason of conflict was that ship carrying women.


[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]Even during the lifetime of the Prophet PBUH, the interior of Arabia was an extremely dangerous place, both for men and women. The Hindu practice of sutee was banned only by the British upon taking control. Violence against women continued long after the advent of Islam and it was until the 19th century that women started fighting for their rights and laws were passed in many countries to protect them from abuse. [/QUOTE]

Muhammad (saas) is not responsible for individual act.


[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]I said that women are safer now than they were 1400 years ago and I've provided evidence. Now please provide evidence to back up your claim. [/QUOTE]

Your aim of attack is Islam and Muhammad or just 1400 years back age ??



[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]I've answered this question in the above paragraph. But lets just say you wouldn't want to live in the interior of Arabia in the 10th century, where, after a war between the Bedouin tribes, you may be carried off as a slave and forced to spend your life as a mistress. Now, would you? [/QUOTE]

Dr. Afiya Siddiqui is the worst example of captive muslimah by west and how she was raped by those secular states who do care of human rights. Hmm!





[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]This is nothing more than rhetoric. Why don't men cover themselves up? Or are only women toffees? BTW, are you a toffee?[/QUOTE]

And here you prove that how a Muslim woman is treated if she pleads for Islam and Muhammad.
There should be an understanding of a given example. Not to taunt.

Mind you language brother.



[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]So you are against women going out of their homes? BTW, if you clear the CSS exam, do you intend to work from home? [/QUOTE]

Not indeed. I will go out to work but I'm taught how to deal with "na mehram" coleague and in which tone. CSS is not my extreme destiny and I told you I can work outside following the rules of Islam.



[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]Islam commands men to lower their gaze. Which means they can lower their gaze? Right? [/QUOTE]

Are you challenging Qur'anic verse ??



[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]So women go out of their homes to satisfy men? Wow, you sure are intelligent![/QUOTE]

If you are unable to understand the context of a sentence or paragraph then you should say sorry rather then to reply foolishly.



[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]There wouldn't be filth if the punishment for rape was death either.[/QUOTE]



Are the rapers sentenced to death in the laws of WEST ??



See the link below showing top ranked countries. Are these countries not of West ??


[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes[/url]


[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime[/url]

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444885]
Moreover, for instance, say a woman [SIZE="3"][B]has right to go outside her home for any necessity i.e; to work , or travel etc.[/B][/SIZE] That right is already given by Islam with some set boundaries. Then she has to follow the way of Islam. And if you say


Ending with an urdu proverb (I don't know the English translation of it) that says " na rahega baans , na bajay gi baansury " . [SIZE="3"][B]There wouldn't have been filth in the world if a women was not let to go out[/B][/SIZE].[/QUOTE]

[B]You are contradicting yourself, aren't you?[/B]

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444885]" na rahega baans , na bajay gi baansury " [/QUOTE]


[B]Neither will there be bamboos nor there would be flutes.[/B]

I couldnt participate because of unavailability of internet connection.The discussionis going good.Besides this is a current news that Afgahn govt banned women leaving their home except for education, health service and one more thing, and that too with a mehram. Moreover you all must be aware of uprsing against basic human rights violation of women when they started to adopt Islamic scarfs in West.I hope we can prepare well for our Essay. Now answers

Since you are on the CSS forum, I'm assuming that you do intend to attempt it. If that is indeed the case, then I'm amazed at your lack of historical knowledge. Just run a search on Google about what usually happened after a siege was over and the city had fallen; you will understand what true violence is.

[COLOR="Blue"]I not need to go this much far in past rather i would suggest you to study both world wars, Bosnian massacre of Men(women spared), and i hope you have heard of 1947 Migration of subcontinent(mass suicides of muslim women)and Kony's sex slave girls as well...these all are the events of much Safer world...You even dint answer regarding the numbers of rapes in Safe West? any doubt about figures? you cant deny...So in this malign world, you want Muslim women to work? or is this situation acceptable to u?[/COLOR]

Look at crime rates with respect to the massive increase in population over the centuries. In the middle ages, people went for Hajj in massive caravans for fear of being looted. A lone man was as much in danger as a lone women, hence the necessity of being accompanies by a mehram.

[COLOR="blue"]Somalian pirates are in news i guess??? Moreover in those days Muslims do"lower their gaze" unlike today, even then women use to veil and accompany with mehram in those times. false logic of unveiling women by you Mr.

and i think you still consider "loot" as bondaged one??? other wise 2008 financial crisis was a big robbery from world?? Billions of dollars are robbed in e-business round the world...In hajj times, looters capitalize on non-connected world, now they are abusing connected world. Nothing changed so false logic.[/COLOR]

Read about the bloody moments of history, the massacres committed centuries ago, the slaughter of innocents just for the pleasure of a young king, enslavement, RAPE and MURDER of ENTIRE CITIES and you will know that the world is BY FAR SAFER THAN EVER BEFORE.

[COLOR="blue"]hmm..than vietnam war, korean war, Us-iraq war, afghan war were a step to make world much safer...were these blood-less wars? bombing of Hiroshima was a step towards safeR world? Libya bombing, Drones, American detention cnters, ethnic cleansing in palestine in 1948, Israel's strikes in lebanon (forgotten?) hundreds of such examples of mass murders are the fruits of much safer world. just the weapons are different. I am sure that your "safety" definition needs some Current affairs "repair".[/COLOR]

The so called hero Muhammad Bin Qasim took captive the ladies of the household of the King of Debal and handpicked his daughters to send to the Caliph in Baghdad.

Bandits ran free in the countryside, raping and plundering at will. And Arabia was no exception.

[COLOR="blue"]I think you have issue with whole caliphate??? were those captive girls sent to get raped??? learn to quote history at least. if this is the case than hazrat jawariya RA were also sent to Hazrat Muhammad PBUH as a captive whome He PBUH married afterwards? Do i take this the way you put your incidence? besides, Muslims always applied rules of war told by Hazrat Muhammad PBUH not to harm women, childern, old age, gardens, trees etc. and this way of captivating was a rule of the period. were non-islamic forces different then? u forgotten Mongols? would you mind if i quote the purchase of African slaves(including women) which british and spanish used them to work till they die(and that's without food and medic becz that increases investment). wo examples to kbhi nhi ati zehn me apke? all anti-islamic incidences are learnt by heart?.[/COLOR]


Not only women, but a stupid person like you, so full of himself, going to Mecca by himself, secure in the knowledge that he was a macho man and not a "kamzor aurat" would have been robbed and murdered on the road in no time.

[COLOR="blue"]hmm..I would accept being called a "stupid" (which i strongly condemn Mr Moderator) rather than a "false and uncontrolled freedom" fighter, destined towards a lewd society which have such moral grounds that a "Rape should be reported and penalized" , instead of obstructing the opportunistic environment at first place. its a shame that western New-muslim women are fighting for veil(france, canada, australia), a human right which freedom fighters are opposing, and you freely blessed are trying to cross the limits. and Hajj pe hi kyun tang tooti ha apki? in the very mean times, british and spanish cargoes were frightened and brutally looted by pirates in atlantic, never read? Pathetically west was unknown of Peace when Muslims were enjoying it in a great caliphate and west was busy in monarch-church wars and then plundering Africa, latin America, N.America, India, Far east. Never read? [/COLOR]



Beta the REALITY is that people live you are only afraid of the power of women and when they have no REAL argument, they try to USE my great religion Islam for their own purposes. Your arguments are still rubbish.

[COLOR="blue"]Beta im not afraid rather than i want this Women resource of our country to be utilized at its best without causing the potential harm which it caused to West becs of uncontrolled freedom . on the contrary you seem over impressed and over-imposed by this gender. and Ont own"Islam", when you are talking about your perceptual Islam. Islam has laws of society (which west teared apart in the name of freedom; animals), and if you are still entranced, than travel naked to achieve ultimate freedom. i know than you will come back running towards "Conservative Islam", the SATAR concept han?.[/COLOR]

Joan of Arc wasn't royal, genius, she was just a commoner. Plus, she lived in the 15th century, not before the advent of Islam. Third, there's a big chance that she was just a LEGEND. Polish up on your history bro, movies dekh ke nai, books par ke. Ab CSS ke papers mein Troy ki kahani na likh ke a jana lol :P[/QUOTE]


[COLOR="blue"]I guess you are so over whelmed in joy of your false logics that you missed what i have written b/w the lines...read my comment again...I said women quoted in history were only Royal women or freedom fighters like john of arc.....you mingled both. for 2nd logic of yours, read my comment again, i left aside pre islamic history...and for 3rd, i meant her a legend thats y she is in comment.

i still wont call your arguments a rubbish because I am Ateeq and I cant be Hassan. So learn to respect opinions with patience.[/COLOR]

@ Malmeena: Sis im impressed by your moderate understanding of Islamic codes. may Allah help us adopt them as well.


@ Shooting Star: Sir whts "netspeak"? unaware of this term.

[QUOTE=peacepakistan;445162]
@ Shooting Star: Sir whts "netspeak"? unaware of this term.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2]Example:writing "R U a woman?" instead of "Are You a woman?". [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

[QUOTE=Hassan02;444925]
Centuries back, when major cities fell to sieges, they were usually plundered and thousands of women raped and killed. The enslavement of women and children is age-old and this happened in Arabia too. The mercy of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is another thing, but do you deny that many females were taken captive? After Muhammad Bin Qasim took Debal, hundreds of women were enslaved. Some were sent to the the Caliph while the others were distributed among his men. Also remember that one of the reasons for the conflict was that ships carrying women and children had been captured by pirates.

Even during the lifetime of the Prophet PBUH, the interior of Arabia was an extremely dangerous place, both for men and women. The Hindu practice of sutee was banned only by the British upon taking control. Violence against women continued long after the advent of Islam and it was until the 19th century that women started fighting for their rights and laws were passed in many countries to protect them from abuse.

I said that women are safer now than they were 1400 years ago and I've provided evidence. Now please provide evidence to back up your claim.
[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2011/jul/21/rape-shame-us-military[/url]

No need to go back centuries :shy

[QUOTE=Invincible;445075][B]You are contradicting yourself, aren't you?[/B][/QUOTE]




No, I'm not at all. :dd

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444194]Do you think any society gave respect to woman including ISLAM ??? I don't think so ....[/QUOTE]




@Invincible

If you're talking about this post then let me tell you I mistakenly typed Islam instead of Muslims.

:onesec
I'm still consistent on my point that Islam gave respect to women but not Muslims.

[QUOTE=Malmeena Khan;444966]Islam taught Justice not west.
[/QUOTE]

Are you saying there was no justice in the world before Islam?

[QUOTE]I'm retained on my statement that muslims are getting worst not Islam.
[/QUOTE]
If you read my previous post, this is the exact thing I said, word for word.

[QUOTE]So you're going to decide who's Muslim and whose not? The word Muslim stands for those who trust in ALLAH and in HIS oneness and follow the way of Muhammad not the one who follow west.It stands not for those who are being number one in providing justice and human rights.
[/QUOTE]

Did I say I'll decide who's Muslim? Your statement shows a low, madrassah level understanding of Islam. Please first research about the importance of human rights in Islam.




[QUOTE]:excl:That time west was not famous as Arabia or not even discovered that no such crimes were reported ? :laughing[/QUOTE]
What the hell are you saying? Please do work on your english before you appear for the CSS exams.

[QUOTE]I don't read altered history or unauthentic.[/QUOTE]
What altered history? Women were not taken captive?

[QUOTE]Retain to a single statement. Either support Muhammad or deny His Excellency. On one hand you're indeed insulting Him by altered history and on other hand calling your-self His follower. Nonsense.
[/QUOTE]
Again, what altered history? Aur lanat mere mun par agar mein Nabi Pak Muhammad PBUH ko insult karun.


[QUOTE]Then why did most of Hindu women made statues of Bin Qasim and started adoring it. Becuse they were made captive and raped ??[/QUOTE]
Please give your source for this statement.

[QUOTE]Who sent bin Qasim to help those women and on who's appeal ? If the reason of conflict was that ship carrying women.[/QUOTE]
You really do need to improve your knowledge of history; the captives were not the ONLY reason. I merely mentioned them to illustrate teh point that those were dangerous times.




[QUOTE]Muhammad (saas) is not responsible for individual act.[/QUOTE]
Did I say he was responsible for what happened in the interior of Arabia? Do you just like to twist things or can't understand english?



[QUOTE]Your aim of attack is Islam and Muhammad or just 1400 years back age ??
[/QUOTE]
I did not attack Islam. I'm merely pointing out that women are safer now than they were in the past centuries.




[QUOTE]Dr. Afiya Siddiqui is the worst example of captive muslimah by west and how she was raped by those secular states who do care of human rights. Hmm!
[/QUOTE]
She was arrested by Pakistani Intelligence. None of us here know the whole story, but I trust the armed forces of my country.


[QUOTE]And here you prove that how a Muslim woman is treated if she pleads for Islam and Muhammad.
There should be an understanding of a given example. Not to taunt.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, are only women toffees? Why aren't man toffees? Stupid examples like those require stupid answers.

[QUOTE]
CSS is not my extreme destiny [/QUOTE]
What's a "extreme destiny"


[QUOTE]Are you challenging Qur'anic verse ??[/QUOTE]
Are the men commanded to lower their gaze or are they not? Simple question.


[QUOTE]Are the rapers sentenced to death in the laws of WEST ??
[/QUOTE]
No, but in the US, they are often sentenced to decades in prison, which, I think is even worse. To live out half your life in prison, don't you think that's a pretty good punishment?

See the link below showing top ranked countries. Are these countries not of West ??


[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes[/url]


[url]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime[/url]

1) Most rapes in Pakistan are not even reported due to cultural reasons.
2) In the countries you mentioned, rape is at least punished, unlike our so called Islamic Republic where 13 year olds are paraded naked through the streets after being raped and no one cares.

@Maleema
@Hassan

Hold on guys. . we are here for discussion and every one has right to argue and counter argue as well. . . but please maintain the decorum of the group.:0 Don't fight please. . if one can not tolerate one's argument it would better that he/she should avoid replying to the post???:dd and one should not be biased in any sense. . . Haram aur dair k jhagre nipta rahe ho??? so please. . .:onesec