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  #11  
Old Wednesday, December 03, 2014
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Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post
Regardless of which age we live in there will be consumption, production and distribution of wealth. The world has changed in form but not in substance. Then the status symbols were horses, camels and elephants running on fresh plants and trees. Noe the status symbols are Mercedes, Honda and corolla running on dead plants and trees! Nothing has changed. Politics are still moulded by prejudices. Society is still run by the concept of "oonchi naak". Economics is still run by profit motive. So what has changed?
That is true. We still are the same species living same life on the same planet with the same brain and with the same basic needs, but what has changed over time is our desires and ambitions. And also what has changed over time is our knowledge of the nature and environment as humans have mastered most aspects of nature. Today we are the dominant species on the plant in literal sense who is not afraid of wild animals and who is ready to take on most challenges which haunted us in the past, for example today we have better ways of dealing with diseases and epidemics which used to clean large portions of population in the past. Or rains which was a natural phenomenon on which economies and production relied extensively in the past, but today there are many procedures by which we can boost agricultural production even with little rain. So there are quite changes and they do affect social behavior of people. From past what we can only get is that spirit of humanity and good will which allowed human civilization to rise to this level and created better cooperation between people to overcome challenges .
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Old Friday, December 05, 2014
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Well the 'Islamic economic model' if there is any would perhaps rely extensively on trust, faith and good will which are largely absent from people's behavior these days . Therefore the alternate to interest based capitalist economy is socialist counterpart which has problems of its own as it slows down growth etc. And also socialist economy would practically put too much authority in the government, something that must be avoided in case of Pakistan as we don't seem to have a sincere government. So let's live with interest and pray to God haha .

BTW I don't see any permanently designed economic model in Shariah which could be considered religious. There are guidelines which might help shape socio economic behavior and help shape the economy on Islamic principles but apart from that I think it's worthless digging religion for a divine economic model . If we are true God fearing Muslims who are mindful of proper reasoning then our economic model is Islamic, else let's face this interest as a punishment haha. At the time of development of Islam the predominant mean of production was agriculture, it was neolithic age, today it's not.
Dear brother, at the time of advent of Islam though the predominant mean of production was agriculture, but "trade" was the major source of earning and gold (Dinar) and silver (Dirham) coins were the currencies used for trade, hence a term neolithic (stone age) is totally wrong to use for that age. Moreover, our behavior is the outcome of our environment and surroundings and if unruly Arabs could become the most developed ones of that era there is no doubt that the same teachings could create harmony, trust and good will among us.

Secondly there are principles and laws regarding economic activities, there are rules, and models are formed upon those rules. And it is the beauty of Islam that it provides principles not concrete models so that those rules could be followed easily in every socio-economic order, one may name it socialist or capitalist, though they dont remain socialist or capitalist if those rules are implemented, anyway. That is the reason the door of "IJTEHAD" is open for Muslim Ummah. The following terms and rules regarding them are evident of the fact that Islamic principles of economy are present in Book and Sunnah.
1- Murabaha (when you are trading)
2- Musharaka (if you are doing business on partnership)
3- Mudaraba (If you are an investor)
4- Ijarah (If you do business of lending products)

Than certain business ethics were given by Islam, i.e: to not sell those goods which are prohibited in Islam (Wine, Pork etc), to not sell without the permission of owner, to not sell without having an ownership, to not stock necessities with the intention of creating higher demand to earn higher profits, to not sell something different than what has been shown to the customer, to not sell the product without telling the flaws to the customer, to not manipulate with weights and measurements, to not make conditional sales, to not swear while dealing with someone to make him agree to buy etc. Besides, these instructions there are many other business ethics defined by Islam.

Thirdly, the main issue, "Riba" or Interest, The aayats of Surah Baqra are enough to understand its "Hurmat". Aayat 275 (Allah has permitted trading and forbidden Riba)
Aayat 276 (Allah will destroy Riba and will give increase to Sadaqa), Aayat 279 (And if you do not do it (stay away from Riba), than take a notice of war from Allah and His Messenger).

Now what is the definition of Riba, Brother ROADBLOCK had made it very clear. For further understanding, exegesis of above mentioned verses of Quran from any Tafseer would suffice IA.

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Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post
Zakat is a unique tax as it taxes savings. But Zakat is an Islamic concept, rest you are intelligent. Also the rate of Zakat is not fixed, It can be increased as well as decreased. Ushr is a tax on agricultural production.Kharaj is on land. Jizya is on non Muslims. Zakat is also applicable on commercial property and industrial produce. And there are other aspects of Islamic economics that are generally unknow. Like it prohibits feudalism. Like it prohibits the unutilization of land, i.e. If Land is unutilized for three years it should be given to a new owner. For details read:
Islamic Economics Theory and Practice by M.A. Mannan
Islamic Economics By Prof. Dar
Elimination of Riba from the economy, Institute of Policy Studies Islamabad
A Challege of Islamic Economics, Muhammad Akram
The Economic System of Islam by M. Umar
Implication of Islamic Landownership and Land Cultivation Ahmad Mustafa
dear, I would like to make a correction, Zakat rate is defined and fixed. If an year passes on savings a person is obliged to pay Zakat. Rate of Zakat, 2.5 % upon 52.5 Tola silver or 7.5 tola gold. It is also fixed and defined for cattle. However, amount of Zakat may vary from one person to another depending on the savings one have.



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Originally Posted by waqas izhar View Post
Regardless of which age we live in there will be consumption, production and distribution of wealth. The world has changed in form but not in substance. Then the status symbols were horses, camels and elephants running on fresh plants and trees. Noe the status symbols are Mercedes, Honda and corolla running on dead plants and trees! Nothing has changed. Politics are still moulded by prejudices. Society is still run by the concept of "oonchi naak". Economics is still run by profit motive. So what has changed?

Thousands of years ago people lived in houses of bricks. Moenjodaro and harrapa are better planned than Lahore and pindi. Now people sleep on the streets and children reside in markets. The only change is a quicker pace of communication. The murders and atrocities hidden years ago are now visible through electronic media and suddenly everyone has lost their marbles. So please relax. The worst situation is that nothing will improve. So what the heck? All we can do is do the best that we can to improve things and that is the best we can do.
Please, don't be 'enchanted' by the illusion of change.

No system in the world can work by itself. Every system is run by and is as efficient as the human beings running it. To change the mindset of the people is the real task at hand. That needs to be worked upon. Else even religion is being used for vested interests.

I would second your point of view, systems are run by people. It is as true as it is said that democracy itself cant bring a change, the people who are at the helm of government affairs matters.
And more importantly, rules are principles had been given to us, it is our will and determination in their implementation.
The Islamic banking system could be only designed if all other apparatuses of government and society work according to Islam. And an interesting fact is, Banking can never be 100 % Islamic because in Islam the duty of lending is of a state not of a private business entity and it is very obvious that a private business entity is always intended in making more profits instead of running a charitable bank.
That is why it is always recommended to have a welfare state.
So how Islamic banking is flourishing so rapidly if it is not Islamic? The major reason is, Islamic Banks do not lend money, they finance projects, houses, businesses etc. Hence, there is always a tangible asset behind every transaction of Islamic banking. Brother ROADBLOCK had also made this concept clear by giving an example of banking collapse of 2008..
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Dear brother, at the time of advent of Islam though the predominant mean of production was agriculture, but "trade" was the major source of earning and gold (Dinar) and silver (Dirham) coins were the currencies used for trade, hence a term neolithic (stone age) is totally wrong to use for that age.
Hmmm well neolithic is not stone age, this term describes agricultural age . Paleolithic is stone age . I am sorry if use of the term created a misunderstanding in your mind . Trade in today's modern age is much different than trade back then.
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Hmmm well neolithic is not stone age, this term describes agricultural age . Paleolithic is stone age . I am sorry if use of the term created a misunderstanding in your mind . Trade in today's modern age is much different than trade back then.
There is no need of sorry brother, I am also a student and my humble research (which is obviously Google) told me that neolithic age ended between 4500-2000 BC. That is why I stated so. Moreover, very frankly, I am not familiar with these terms, otherwise I would have opted the right option in the GK paper of PMS :p But thanks a lot for correcting me and for your courtesy. I searched these terms because you mentioned them and learned two new terms ....
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There is no need of sorry brother, I am also a student and my humble research (which is obviously Google) told me that neolithic age ended between 4500-2000 BC. That is why I stated so. Moreover, very frankly, I am not familiar with these terms, otherwise I would have opted the right option in the GK paper of PMS :p But thanks a lot for correcting me and for your courtesy. I searched these terms because you mentioned them and learned two new terms ....
Regards

It was my mistake, actually neolithic and bronze age etc are terms used to specify technological advancements. I actually try to understand the whole agricultural period before industrial revolution as neolithic and period before that as paleolithic, it makes it easier to understand and build concepts . Rise of Islam took place during a period which was perhaps bronze age or something. Nevertheless the point remains that today's technology is much more advanced than that period, and any technological advancement has a significant impact on human societies and cultures so there is a great difference between bronze age and modern age societies. We cannot expect the same behavior from people as back then and neither same organization can survive today. Unless we choose not to accept modern day technological advancements ofcourse, but I think that's not an option because then we will be wiped out and no angels are coming to help .
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It was my mistake, actually neolithic and bronze age etc are terms used to specify technological advancements. I actually try to understand the whole agricultural period before industrial revolution as neolithic and period before that as paleolithic, it makes it easier to understand and build concepts . Rise of Islam took place during a period which was perhaps bronze age or something. Nevertheless the point remains that today's technology is much more advanced than that period, and any technological advancement has a significant impact on human societies and cultures so there is a great difference between bronze age and modern age societies. We cannot expect the same behavior from people as back then and neither same organization can survive today. Unless we choose not to accept modern day technological advancements ofcourse, but I think that's not an option because then we will be wiped out and no angels are coming to help .
I would second you in your opinion but my point of view still stands that though the attitudes, environment, culture and societies evolved since then, yet the rules of trust, faith, good will, truthfulness still stand the same. Hence, of course, with new technologies, new societies and developed techniques new organizations could be forged with the help of same rules mentioned 1400 years ago. What i heard from people is that Scandinavian states are welfare states. They look after their poor, the deprived ones, old and jobless people. This was the practice of early Islamic states. If such developed nations as Norway and Finland could spent their exchequer upon those from whom they can expect nothing, why not the Islamic countries? why not Islamic monarchies? why not Islamic democracies? The thing is whatever the economic state may be, be it socialist, capitalist or whatever the political state may be, dictatorial, autocrat, technocrat, monarchy or democracy, if the state is implementing such laws which are boosting social and economic development of a society, what is wrong with it?
The concept of welfare state, which was practiced by early Caliphs, is now practiced by these Scandinavian states. And the fact is the institutes which Islam and its early practitioners gave us are more bound to socio-economic justice and welfare. Bait ul Maal was established to look after the needy, poor and old subjects. And Kharaj, Ushar and Zakat were collected and gathered in regional and central Bait ul Maal (unfortunately, the later Muslim leaders used those resources for their own pomp and show), but the thing is, Is it possible to have such Islamic Institutes which replace our Commercial Banking and Finance system. The answer is yes there is a possibility. But up to what extent, it depends upon those who are responsible to establish such institutes. There are principles, laws and ethics of doing business and trade according to Islam. But the problem is with Muslims, not with Islam.... And it is very old one, and chemists are still looking for its cure..... Unfortunately and ironically, the patients themselves are not ready to get cured....
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I would second you in your opinion but my point of view still stands that though the attitudes, environment, culture and societies evolved since then, yet the rules of trust, faith, good will, truthfulness still stand the same.
yup that's true, these are the requirements for any human organization to work. I have already mentioned that I suppose. But my point is there is no predefined system in Islamic scriptures and digging for one would be a futile debate. For example back then slave trade was common but today car trade is, so back then you trusted a slave's physical strength whereas today you will trust an engine . So the element of faith from Islam can be used to generate trust and good will between people. But the economic systems keep changing as the modes of trade and transaction and production etc keep changing. The most visible aspect of modern capitalist economies that goes totally against the Islamic teachings is that of usury or interest (let's not try to redefine interest to differentiate it from usury and allow it haha). But interest is the backbone of capitalism and without it a free market economy is not possible. The alternate to that is a socialist economy, but that would require a strong and ambitious ideologically motivated government which is honest in pursuing it's cause. Unfortunately it's not there and can not come any soon, we will be deceived by many dishonest politicians who will claim to be devout, or wariors like abu bakar al Baghdadi will cut our necks into submission, all making promises to end poverty and suffering and break them for their convenience . So my advice for the religious people would be to tolerate interest and learn to live with it, unless Allah makes arrangements as promised in His book .
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unless Allah makes arrangements as promised in His book .

And what are those arrangements exactly? Have you ever read the instructions against interest? Allha says in surah Bakara, Verse no 278 and 279, (http://quran.com/2/278-279)

278: O you who have believed, fear Allah and give up what remains [due to you] of interest, if you should be believers.

279: And if you do not, then be informed of a war [against you] from Allah and His Messenger.

Allah has pointed out that those who deal in interest are at war with Him and the prophet. And you are saying that we keep with the system and 'hope for arrangements' from Allah's side.

Numerous 'major sins' are mentioned in the Quran but none of them is deemed equal to such a treatment from Allah (War from Allah's side).

Interest is the bitter reality in today's Islamic world. However, we should do our best to keep away from it and take practical steps to gradually transform the economy. The passive strategy proposed by you will not be useful enough.

P.s the trade and business dynamics are changed in the competitive and globalised world but have you ever read the 'basic guidelines' in Islam about difference facets of business functioning. About sale, debt issuance, partnership, profit and loss sharing etc etc. I would recommend you go through them before explicitly stating that the basics are not ‘applicable’ today. And if you have read them, then prove that how they are not suitable. For instance, how are the 'requirements for valid sale' not applicable in today's world. We can develop a very sound, reliable and durable business environment by just following the most general and basic rules proposed by Islam.
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Interest is the bitter reality in today's Islamic world. However, we should do our best to keep away from it and take practical steps to gradually transform the economy. The passive strategy proposed by you will not be useful enough.
on a personal level yes, I also consider it not good. And I never said usury is allowed in Islam so please don't bring Quran Pak in between. But we are not in a position to do anything about it. I honestly don't like the Muslims of today, they cannot be trusted, being Muslim myself I don't know where this flock is taking me to. One of my acquaintances runs a small shop which was going down in business and he was reluctant in seeking loan from bank considering interest as haram. And guess what no one could help him and all saw the pain of misery he went through. I don't suggest usury as a passive strategy but as a punishment for Muslims as they have become worse these days.
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yup that's true, these are the requirements for any human organization to work. I have already mentioned that I suppose. But my point is there is no predefined system in Islamic scriptures and digging for one would be a futile debate. For example back then slave trade was common but today car trade is, so back then you trusted a slave's physical strength whereas today you will trust an engine . So the element of faith from Islam can be used to generate trust and good will between people. But the economic systems keep changing as the modes of trade and transaction and production etc keep changing. The most visible aspect of modern capitalist economies that goes totally against the Islamic teachings is that of usury or interest (let's not try to redefine interest to differentiate it from usury and allow it haha). But interest is the backbone of capitalism and without it a free market economy is not possible. The alternate to that is a socialist economy, but that would require a strong and ambitious ideologically motivated government which is honest in pursuing it's cause. Unfortunately it's not there and can not come any soon, we will be deceived by many dishonest politicians who will claim to be devout, or wariors like abu bakar al Baghdadi will cut our necks into submission, all making promises to end poverty and suffering and break them for their convenience . So my advice for the religious people would be to tolerate interest and learn to live with it, unless Allah makes arrangements as promised in His book .
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on a personal level yes, I also consider it not good. And I never said usury is allowed in Islam so please don't bring Quran Pak in between. But we are not in a position to do anything about it. I honestly don't like the Muslims of today, they cannot be trusted, being Muslim myself I don't know where this flock is taking me to. One of my acquaintances runs a small shop which was going down in business and he was reluctant in seeking loan from bank considering interest as haram. And guess what no one could help him and all saw the pain of misery he went through. I don't suggest usury as a passive strategy but as a punishment for Muslims as they have become worse these days.
'As a punishment for their deeds'. You took my words. That was my exact point I wanted to maintian. And yes, Interest is an inevitable bitter reality.
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