[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166131]@ Nageen

Now u said tht if anyone can afford it dere z nothhing bad in it. Then again my observation tells me wen i look cases other den my family tht quite often da dower fixed z way beyond the apparent means of the man. [/QUOTE]

True, I agree.But then too girls aren't responsible for it cuz our society hasn't given the right even to educated girls to demand a specific dower.


[QUOTE=amna younas;166135]hehe.boht aasan he ye keh dena k jo afford kr skte hein wo dein .its not bad.i know its our sunnah to give dowry but u ppl try to see those girls who remain unmarried and their emotions got negative when they were not able to get married due to no availability of dowry.comments pass kr dena to boht aasan he
:shy[/QUOTE]

Ma'am my comments were about [B]'dower'[/B] not dowry.

Then i guess one should be making some effort to make the society realize tht women have 2 b taken on board fr negotiating a specific dower on case 2 case basis keeping in view the criteria discussed previously rather then trying to defend tht demanding unrealistically high dower will help women. Two wrongs dun make a right!!

@ Maam Amna

If u r trying 2 suggest tht if some poor cant afford to give dowry then may be those who can afford it shd also abandon it tu i guess its nt gonna happen even though it may b even my ideal. But real world affairs dun run as per our ideals. Different classes have always existed throughout human history even during Prophet hood classes were dere although dey had equal rights under pure Islamic law but as far dere personal life z concerned dere was always a clear difference. A class less society has been dere only in dreams of various philosophers but is yet 2 b achieved. So we have 2 accept da realities n den try 2 bring some good in them

[QUOTE=Zoyee;166056]

I want to discuss here regarding recent practices of dower(Haq Mahr), what do u think if it has become a problem?

What is its social impact? Which kind of social problems people are facing through dower? (in case of high amount)

And what factors are behind that practices? What do you think we people are following trends set by upper class or it is matter of show off?
I just want to know different views of you people, come foreword and give your view please, people from different culture and remote areas are preferred as well to give your opinion.

Thanks,

Zoyee[/QUOTE]

(You didn't question about 'dowry' but I can't talk without its reference.)
I don't think 'Dower' is such a big problem as 'Dowry' because a groom is never burnt in history for not paying a handsome amount for 'dower' as compared to less dowry.


What I observe is that,
1-At first the groom party makes demands for good dowry (what the others have to fulfil).Then ,in return, a large amount is demanded for dower from bride's side .
2- Like big dowry ,big dower is also considered a sign of status these days, so sometimes grooms also fix a large amount or property as dower to show off their status ,without demand froms other side.
4- As far as I think a big dower is mostly fixed as a 'Deferred Dower' which is never paid in successful marriages.
3- People consider it a means of security as S_Ranjha mentioned.But this is true that in some cases it really provides security to such relationships.



[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166141]Then i guess one should be making some effort to make the society realize tht women have 2 b taken on board fr negotiating a specific dower on case 2 case basis keeping in view the criteria discussed previously rather then trying to defend tht demanding unrealistically high dower will help women. Two wrongs dun make a right!!
[/QUOTE]

Sure.

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166141]
@ Maam Amna

If u r trying 2 suggest tht if some poor cant afford to give dowry then may be those who can afford it shd also abandon it tu i guess its nt gonna happen even though it may b even my ideal. [B]But real world affairs dun run as per our ideals. Different classes have always existed throughout human history even during Prophet hood classes were dere although dey had equal rights under pure Islamic law but as far dere personal life z concerned dere was always a clear difference. [/B]A class less society has been dere only in dreams of various philosophers but is yet 2 b achieved. So we have 2 accept da realities n den try 2 bring some good in them[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised to see that how flexible is your approach regarding 'Dowry'.
Why blaming class & society now? Why don't you say that there should be some effort to realize the people real problems of dowry.(cuz educated boys also don't want to get dowry,I guess. :shy)

@zoyee
 

[QUOTE=Zoyee;166056]Assalam-O-Alaikum to all!

I want to discuss here regarding recent practices of dower(Haq Mahr), what do u think if it has become a problem?

What is its social impact? Which kind of social problems people are facing through dower? (in case of high amount)

And what factors are behind that practices? What do you think we people are following trends set by upper class or it is matter of show off?
I just want to know different views of you people, come foreword and give your view please, people from different culture and remote areas are preferred as well to give your opinion.

Thanks,
[/QUOTE]
"Haq Mahr"z definetly becoming a problem,..bride' parents want to protect the future of thr daughter,thtswhy thy demand to write high amounts as"Haq Mahr"...thy think tht in ths way groom will not do anything wrong with thr lass.ths peoblem hs assumed worst shape in those communities and areas whr landlords r dominated.parents usually want to get a piece of land 4 thr grl,ths arises more problem...with the rapid progress in every field of lyf,women r also aware of thr rights and ve becum money-minded too,thy r taking everythin rationally,thy want to get security 4rm thr husband in the shape of high amount of "Haq Mahr"....according to the Muslim ulemas "sharai huq mahr z 32rs and 50 paisas"...ths concept z totally wrong.we cnt blame upper class 4 ths trend as lower class z not so unaware abt thr rights,..the dire need of the hour z to bring a change in mindset of the new generation.thy shuld understand ths point tht thr future depends upon the mental harmony and respect 4 each others,before or during marriage process huq mahr issue cn distrub ths mental harmony and after marriage lyf.ths z my point of view,u cn differ viv it
regards

[QUOTE=nageen;166189]

I'm surprised to see that how flexible is your approach regarding 'Dowry'.
Why blaming class & society now? Why don't you say that there should be some effort to realize the people real problems of dowry.(cuz educated boys also don't want to get dowry,I guess. :shy)[/QUOTE]

I dnt knw vot made u thnk tht my stance is diff on Dower & Dowry. I,ve been very clear tht in both the cases the role of society hasnt been gud. I wud like 2 comment here tht [B] in cases where the prob of dowry arises even dere 90% of da times its nt a educated boy showing resentment on less dowry but a Saasu maa i.e Mother in law (again a future version of U nt us) [/B]

I asked 4 a case 2 case determination of both dower n dowry. [B]My pt waz tht as we cant fix a specific amount of dower fr all the cases n tht differz on case 2 case basis likewise the dowry cant be fix either n tht ll differ too depending on various parametrz nd class z one ov those parameters along wid otherz
[/B]

[QUOTE=S_Ranjha;166211] [B] in cases where the prob of dowry arises even dere 90% of da times its nt a educated boy showing resentment on less dowry but a Saasu maa i.e Mother in law (again a future version of U nt us)
[/B][/QUOTE]


Ok, but we can't blame only Saasu maa in this scenario, mama's boys should also take some responsibility for the matters directly related to them.

@Nageen..absolutly right
 

[QUOTE=nageen;166215]Ok, but we can't blame only Saasu maa in this scenario, mama's boys should also take some responsibility for the matters directly related to them.[/QUOTE]

Hello all,
i totally agree with Nageen's point ov view.

if boyz can pursuade their parents about marriying a girl of their choice or thier love.then how is it possible that they don't have any authority or influnce regrding this matter.

the truth is that they only want it to happen.they also want to take dowry
but when it comes to HAQ Mehr their comes Shariya.(they don't know even the true Sunna).
I personally have witnessed many marriages in which Groom's family takes heaps of or should i say trucks of dowry but at Nikkah's time they demand that Haq Mehr should be according to Shariya which is according to them
is equal to the price of 10kg Wheat at the time of Wedding.
Is it Justice?I would call it a brutal and ignorant act.

[B]Rules of Dower (Ahkam mahr)[/B]

Dower means the amount of consideration that is paid by the husband to the wife after Marriage (nikah) with her. Dower is one of the conditions of validity of nikah. This is the view of the Ahnaf. Non payment of dower is against the Qur'anic verses. Its wujub is proved by the Holy Qur’an and Sunnah. Allah Almighty says: “And give the women (on marriage) their dower as an obligation”. Al-Quran 4:4.
[B]
Kinds of Dower according to quantity[/B]

[B]1. Agreed upon Dower (Mahr Musamma)[/B]

Mahr Musamma is that dower on which both the parties have agreed upon as fixed between them. If it is cash then it will be the local coin and if it is ornament or property then it must be specified. The payment of dower becomes obligatory at the time of nikah or after the nikah.

[B]2. The Minimum Dower (Mahr Adna)[/B]

In this kind of dower no quantity is fixed. If man is rich he may give piles of wealth. However many ahadith are available giving the minimum limit of dower amount.

According to a report of Imam Bukhari the Messenger of Allah said to a person: enter into a marriage (nikah), contract even if for a consideration of a dower of an iron finger ring.

According to a report of Imam Muslim, the dower of the wives of the Messenger of Allah had been 12.5 Auqiyah. Abu Hurayrah reported that during the period of the Messenger of Allah the quantity of dower fixed was 10 Auqiyah. In the modern period the market value of ten auqiya can be known very conveniently.

[B]3. The like dower (Mahr Mithl)[/B]

Mahr Mithl is that quantity which is fixed for other females as their dower in the family of the woman. Need to do so is felt where at the time of contract of marriage (nikah) nothing was settled between the parties about the dower or the payment of dower was settled but amount of dower was not fixed or determined by the parties for any reason whatsoever.

[B]Kinds of Dower (Mahr) with regard to the period[/B]

With regard to the period when the dower is to be paid by the husband to the wife there are two kinds of dower.
[LIST=1][*][B]Prompt dower (mahr mu`ajjal):[/B] It is that dower regarding the payment of which parties have agreed that it shall be paid promptly.[*][B]Deferred dower (mahr mu'ajjal):[/B] It is that dower regarding which there had been agreement between the parties that it shall be paid after some period.[/LIST][B]Addition or reduction in the quantity of settled dower[/B]

Both the husband and the wife have the right to add or reduce the settled amount or quantity of dower by mutual consent. Where a husband intends to increase the amount agreed to by him to be paid as dower amount, he has the right to do so. Likewise, where a wife intends to reduce the amount payable to him as dower amount she has the right to do so. She has the right even to forego the whole quantity of her dower.

The Holy Qur’an says: "But if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you take it and enjoy it with right good cheer."

There are three circumstances which make the payment of dower obligatory:

(1) When after entering into the contract of marriage (nikah) the spouses (zaujayn) had cohabited it becomes obligatory upon the husband to make full payment of the dower amount.

(2) When after entering into contract of marriage (nikah) the husband died. The widow shall get her dower amount before the distribution of the estate left behind by the deceased husband. It is not necessary that the spouses had cohabited before the death of the husband. To distribute the estate of the deceased husband before making payment of the dower debt to the widow is not permissible.

(3) According to Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, payment of dower become certain where the spouses (zaujayn) had full privacy and isolation without any apprehension of arrival in their apartment of anyone else. It is called valid retirement (Khalwat Sahihah). In such a circumstance other persons do not know about cohabitation. However, if the door is closed in such a manner that coming or going in the private room is possible then such a situation is not called Valid retirement (Khalwat Sahihah).

On valid retirement (Khalwat Sahihah), the payment of dower becomes obligatory upon the husband.

[QUOTE]according to the Muslim ulemas "sharai huq mahr z 32rs and 50 paisas"...ths concept z totally wrong.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

‘Aishah was once asked how much dower the Prophet gave his wives. She replied that it was 12 auqiyah and 1 nash (one nash being equal to half an
auqiyah, that is, about 500 dirhams). This was the only dower of the Prophet Muhammad for his wives. “But,” she added, ‘Umm Habiba’s dower consisted of 4000 dirhams, this sum having been fixed by the Christian King of Abyssinia, Najashi, who had performed this marriage by proxy.”

10 Auqiyah and 1 Nash = 500 Dirham

[FONT=Palatino Linotype][SIZE=3]The standard weight of dirham, according to the doctors of lslamic Shari'ah, is equal to fifty-five grains of barley and ten dirhams are equivalent in weight to seven mithqals of gold. Doctors of law unanimously agree with the weight given by Ibn Khaldun. [/SIZE][/FONT]

1 Dirham = 55 grains of barley
1 mithqal = 4.25 grams
10 Dirham = 7 mithqal or 29.75 grams of pure gold
500 Dirham = 1487.5 grams of pure gold
1487.5 grams = 127.531 tola of pure gold

And you all know the current rate of gold in the market. :)

[QUOTE]posted By Bunko
According to my knowledge, I think Dower is not a problem but a precaution against injustice to women. In contemporary world, Few groups criticize high dower issue and consider it as a burden and injustice to man to pay dower. But if we look into our Past.During the reign of Khulfa-I-Rashdeen, When Hazrat Umar (R.A) decided in meeting to cap the limit of dower, at that point, Few women present in that meeting, criticize Hazrat Umar (R.A) and said, " Who You are decide to Cap limits of Dower, even When Allah and His Rasool (PBUH) never talked about any such thing." At that point Hazrat Umer (R.A) took his decision back and give decree not to cap the limit of dower
[/QUOTE]@ Bunko
You are right about Hazrat Umar (R.A) example, but the thing which i want to clear here that I have enough knowledge about Shariah perspective about practices of [I]Mahr[/I] (dower)

[COLOR=Purple][B]Proof that the Mahr is Obligatory[/B][/COLOR]

Allah says in the Qur'an:

{And give the women their dower with a good heart...} An-Nisaa:4

[B][COLOR=Purple]The Minimum Amount of the Dowry[/COLOR][/B]

The minimum dowry is ten dirham (somewhere around ten dollars or the price of a goat today). This is based on the hadith:

[COLOR=Purple] "La mahra aqallu min 'asharati dirham."
"There is no mahr less then ten dirhams."[/COLOR]

While Ibn Hajr found this hadith to be "hassan", most other scholars of hadith judged it as weak. Also, it is in contradiction to the hadith about the iron ring - which would not have been worth that amount.

In the hadeeth of ‘Uqbah ibn ‘Aamir radiallaahu ‘anhu, the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “The best dowry is that which is easy.” This was narrated by Abu Daawood and al-Haakim who authenticated it. And once a woman offered herself to the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam for marriage. However, one of his Companions desired to marry her, so the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said [regarding the mahr]: “Bring something, even if it be an iron ring.” So when he could not find even this, the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam married them for the dower that the man would teach whatever of the Qur’aan he knew to her.

Your view is right but i wanted here to point out social problems created by Dower in some cases. As I clear in my questions that has dower become a problem?? So it indicates that what about our recent practices? How we people are taking it?Is it easy in recent practices or it has become a status symbol or matter of show off in case of high amount?

[COLOR=Purple][B]@ All
Respected members!![/B][/COLOR]
Dowery is something different please dont mix dower with dowery thats why i cleared it with Arabic terminology (Haqq Mahr)

And one more thing which i wanted to say that some people are of the view that dower is not cause or reason of late marriages. I personally observed an engagement where it created problem at the end. And that engagement broke only because of high demand of dower by girls family. So cases vary area to area and family to family....but we cannot generalize one example to all.

In addition to that purpose of my question requires to point out different cases through which we know that if its creating a problem then what are the factors behind it?, ur experiences regarding dower, your observations etc.Then at the end i'l be conclude your views.
[B]
[COLOR=Purple]Its my humble request to all of you members that come foreword and please stick to the topic dowry is another big discussion.I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings here but i want to be more specific to my query.
[/COLOR][/B]
Regards,
Zoyee

@ Last Island

[B][COLOR=Purple]
Thanks for your views and opinion regarding this topic i am greatful to you but please add more if you have any observation regarding social practices of dower (Mahr) in our society.[/COLOR][/B]


Thanks,
Regards,

Zoyee

[QUOTE]1 Dirham = 55 grains of barley
1 mithqal = 4.25 grams
10 Dirham = 7 mithqal or 29.75 grams of pure gold
500 Dirham = 1487.5 grams of pure gold
[B]1487.5 grams = 127.531 tola of pure gold[/B][/QUOTE]

127.531 (35000 Rs.)=44,63585 Rupees
My Goodness !:blink

@ Last Island
You always rock Ma'am. Thanks a lot.:pipe:pipe