Precisely. Protestant movement began as a result of too much contamination in Catholicism that had taken a cult-like route i.e, too much focus on the human factor and lesser and lesser on God Himself. Protestantism only cured that and went back to the Original Creator- God. In fact the Puritan movement in England, a very fundamental view of Christianity was begun by Protestants.

Anyways Sadia, continue reading as well as analyzing facts. But just cautioning you- you need to work harder than this.

It seems sadia is confusing work of "enlightenment" thinkers with attempts at "protestant reforms in catholic christianity". "Protestant" is derived from "protest" and is the reform movement emanated by priests who objected to orthodox catholic practices. "Age of Enlightenment" is a period of european history when "enlightenment" thinkers advocated "empirical reasoning" over "divine impulses". Atheism, deism, agnosticism etc are product of that thinking. Sadia you need to study condition of european society during medieval and renaissance ages.

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

@sadia..so how does the fact that jews converted into protestant christians tell us that THEY were athiests..and sorry I didn't get u what does 2 jews in Khana Kaaba has to do with all this discussion..as far as I know,there are a number of Muslims who are athiest as well..so we cant say that a particular sect of muslims(who converted from hinduism of whatever) are athiest.. athiests are ubiquitous and can be found anywhere..However it would be wrong to say they hail from a particular religious group..and an average protestant christian takes this athiest tag as seriously as we muslims would..
p.s:Are u sure 2 jews went inside khana kaaba??If I am not wrong and if I am not missing anything,I think 2 jews tried to steal Holy Prophet(SAW)'s body from his roza mubarik in medina..in the era of Noor Ul Din Zangi..correct me if I am wrong with references..

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I shall also advise this last thing to anyone who has interest in study or religion and society..Now I am not student of european history by any means..but what I have studied about this Ill like to elaborate..do correct me any1 if M wrong..The church at vatican had become more powerful than the states and the Kings..it levied a heavy tax on every individual and state..it owned all the land and production in europe..on a smaller level the clergy had been corrupted by money and power..they told people that Bible isn't the source of guidance,rather the priests and church are..I remember reading that the church used to sell certificates to sinners that their sins have been forgiven and they will be granted a route to the heaven..however the condition of the common man deteriorated..frustrated by all this,Martin Luther King,a german priest,jotted down a few points(30 something I guess)on a piece of paper and pinned it to a church door..and roughly it said that salvation and guidance can be sought through the Bible only,and therez no need for clergy to act as middlemen between man and God..furthermore it listed many steps for the reform of the church..that roughly was the social history of medieval ages and the birth of protestantism..correct me if I am right as I said I am not a student of euro history n have just given a rough draft:p
moreover,I think sadia is discussing what we call conspiracy theories..n conspiracy theories are precisely that..CONSPIRACY..like USA nvr put astronauts on the moon,Pakistan has a hydrogen bomb etc..they are never credible and therefore not worth ur time..y not move on to a more fruitful topic?

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Brother its nopt grenade or gerenade..its GRENADA..Im sure muslim history me ap ne Gharnata ka nam sunna hoga..its the same as grenada..and lets reform this discussion by reverting to the topic..:p

i further do not want to argue any more.this discussion made me bore and me not a theologian or euro.hist.student.me just has passion to study in depths.
U r right and perfect,i forgot about Noor ud din.and i what said i studies from many sources.History might be wrong and me not a perfect.
What i have read,christian Renaissance started when Queen iSABELLA spoiled,detriorated Muslim rule in spain.Here jews and Muslims both were living.Muslim were also asked to convert,but Muslim had global centre that was ottaman."SHABETAE" THATformed the Rubi sect also induced jews to migrate.
And when all the jews had two choices:either to die or or convert.Conversion was easy choice.this not only created hatred regarding religion among jews but christians too..and i mentioned some leaders but it is futile to argue more.i can put other facts but i will not got knowlege from ye so ..
I knew Martin from germany, Machiavelli from italy,jhon dee and francis Darke from england and others.

I agree ,we should discuss some fruit ful.

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

Now let me correct you there. Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) was conquered by muslims during 8th century and it was named Al-Andalus. As soon as the muslims took over the region, various christian kingdoms of Iberian peninsula started their movement to retake Al-Andalus from muslims. This movement continued for almost 700 years, during which muslim power in the Iberian peninsula gradually deteriorated, and was completed with the conquest of Grenada by forces of Ferdinand and his spouse Isabella I of Castile. The entire long movement is called "Reconquista". After completion of reconquista, another movement called "Inquisition" was started to re-christianize the land. Muslims and jews alike were forced to either become conversos (convert to christianity, muslim converts were called moriscos and jewish converts were called moranos) or face exile or other repercussions. Thats all about Spaniards .

Now come to the topic of renaissance. The only time in history of the world when a belligering force was under the flag of christianity (unlike under the flag of a nation eg France, England or a group eg Saxons, Lombards etc) was crusades (also reconquista to some extent). A form of reawakening among european christians ushered during that period, called renaissance of 12th century. The crusades gave significant military power to the christian priests, who then became morally corrupt and degraded and started getting involved in malpractices (the condition was somewhat alike contemporary condition of our own muslims where priests (molanas) have become religious office bearers , but with different modalities as Islam is not like Christianity ). Then, during the 14th century, started the "Protestant" reform movement in christianity by Martin Luther and his accomplices who were averse to orthodox roman catholic practices as mentioned by hamza salick. This movement of reforms in christianity continued for around 200 years till 16th century (you can study the details of what was espoused in protestanism elsewhere ). Then enlightened thinking began to usher in Europe and work of enlightened thinkers like Rousseau, Montesquieu etc was promulgated and accepted by the people. Together this entire period of reformation in christianity and enlightenment is called "European Renaissance". The point here is, Atheism, Deism, Agnosticism were the brain products of Enlightenment thinkers, not protestant reformers.

Now I hope some concepts of history are clear in your mind. Another suggestion I would like to give you here is whenever you read, read with objectivity and not with emotions and sentiments. Only then you will be able to learn from your reading .

Dear I know very well Gernade, or Gharnata or Ghanta or Grenada . I was just playing earlier.

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

the topic has been chewed like bubble.any how i knew Abdur ur rehman,last reminecence of ummayad dynasty found that dynasty.The conquest OF garnada was as a result of reaction:the muslims saljuks had occupied constantipole.Here crusade ambition or religious awakening was started.

I knew ,protest was to reform mal practices like "ana baptism, Euchristi, indulgences, feminism,individualism and so.These were initiated first by luthe then zwangli and others.

I knew Renaissance movement was cultural rebirth.first Angles and saxon conquered england than Normans from France conquered it.the hundred year was caused to make free england.cultural rebirth means awakening in all institutions:protestants reforms, political stability ,and so.
1.age of travelogue.
2.sir walter Releigh secret intellectual society.
3.black death/buboonic plague.
4.discoveries and inventions.
5.religious reforms.

Who said i do not know Renaissance and renaissance.
And About Rousseau ,wo bechara to age of enligtenment ke pyda war he.Ok you can say it was Due Dante(italy).

And why they conquered muslim land,setting aside religious motif there were another motives too.That was to search spices and bullion.

Deism was started first by
"jhon dee"that was the product of Renaissance.


If u will argue more i have too answer.but i advice you to leave it.what you will gain. And i will not become famous to win it.leave it.

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

movable type printing press,(johanness guttenburg) invented.
And basic thing the formation of pure dialect of english as english language was divided into high and low Norman dialects
2.queen remained virgin and employed virginity as her foreign policy.His father Henry refused to admit the superamacy of Rome or vatican.Queen sided Protestants in scotland,France to settle the score of her illegitimacy.

3.Deism later converted into Atheism that was age of reason and elightenment.and history marked that period is 18 century.

4.protestants first went to new foundland.because there were ousted from Kunan, aqsa.Their spirits had a tilt toward zion.let further explore brother about protestants of new found land.later in 19 and end of 18 century catholics had conflict with protestant in new foundland.How catholicts went toward new land.That was after"glorious revolution"
when william of orange and Queen Marry (protestants)regained rule.

I want to know what u will gain when i have already said i am wrong.and ur info.is not increasing my knowlegde.

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I ,in my pvs most thread put forward view. There arouse a disagreement.I accept my wrong assumption.Now argue more is a kind of distraction.Mods forbade to district.And you,muhamdkashf knew it very well.So stop here

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"