Please ub Punjab textbook board ki ishaat karda information and propaganda se baher nikal ayein or apni incompetent army ka asal chehra pehchanain..sari dunya me ur army is synonymous with a living joke and it has now lost whatever dignity had in Pakistan as well..politicians jaise bhi hain us army se bht behtr hain jo 4 jangein hari he r adha mulk ganwa k bethi he..Impressive resume!!

I was shocked when u comment like tha abt army. Jangen harien bt kis wja ce harien ye b to pata hona zarori he.ye civillian leadrz k wja ce he hary th.
1.genral grasy ne inkar kardya 1948.naya bana tha
2.1965. I know pak manage due to china bt bury tara hara
3. 1971 ye sub to zulfqar ke wja ce th
4.kargil,army is gng to win then internatnl cmunty stopd th.
Agr blame kr rae ho to me kaho politician used army and army politicians.
Why u r so against army only due to foreign propaganda as ya p anti america sentments hen.then tell me with source,taky me be yakin kar skun

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

In reply to ur post all I can reply is this...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH..
I can very well see who is effected by propaganda here..ISI funded propaganda..Politicians ko blame kurna band krain ub..un ki kafi accountability hogai..ub un ko chalne dain democracy ko chalne dain..ub ehtesab kurna he tw Army ka kro jo 62 sal se uninterrupted itne heavy defence budgets k nam pe ap ko kha rahy he..Saari kharabiyan hoti army k daur me hain n u blame POLITICIANS AND CIVILIANS???HOW COME??1971 me ZAB power me tha??us se pehle 13 sal kis ki hukumat rhi jis k nateeje me east Pakistan bangladesh bna??politicians ki??1965 me politicians ne kaha tha army ko k Operation Gibraltar kro ja k..Me Army k khilaf islye hun coz its high time now k koi sach boley..logon ki ankhe khole jo army ne propaganda kr kr k bnd kardi hain..enough of that..adha mulk gnwa dia,baki adha ganwane k verge pe thi Musharraf Government..2/3rd time army ne rule kia n jawab ap is tabahi ka mangte ho politicans se..wese tw I dont need to give u any reference any source coz if no one believes this then I seriously doubt about the quality of the research they have into this matter,and the extent 2 which they have been brainwashed..but koi kitab prhni hi he tw start with Ayesha Siddiqua's Military Inc for a start..



And Kargil jung army har chuki thi..Nawaz Shareef was sent to washington to bail the army out of the mess they had got themselves into..saare hill tops pe India ne dobara kabza kr lia tha n Pak Army needed a safe passage to RETREAT--the only thing it does well..Politicains ne generals ka machaya hua gnd saf kia he hamesha..Please try and study unbiased accounts and dont believe a word of ISPR and ISI sponsored material..

i agree to one point ,that is blame game. If u will read my pvs post in anodr thread,me b yae kh rae ,do not blame,and right yae waqt tha kam karny ka army ka.
Agr liaqat ko qatal krwaya kis ne, no 1 knows bt behind veil is wo 2nd gonga gvrnr gnrl he na,army ko hakomat me laya kon? Yae disable person? Ye power triangle kb bany sikandr,ayub,gvrnl gnrl gulam mhumd to kis ne bnwae.
2nd power trangl kisne bnae? ZAB, yahya and mujib bt bnae kis ne,butto ne.
Me disagree wd u only wd anti army stance,ye mera mulk he agr me gor ce daikho,me ne,tm ne and hum sub ne kya dya.we all are akountabl


janab yahya to puppet tha,agr 6 point formula par bhutto confrnc krlaity and ye na khty jo asembly ke tiket pe bngla jae ga me usky tangen tor do ga? Who is respnsbl abt debacle?


Gillani today stated the Americans are right ful for unilateralism as osama killed army men and 30,000leaders.these are our leaders! They might be Army general or civillian ,all have same color.Nawaz issued the drone attacks launched with in pakistan not fromAFGHANISTAN. Now Who is accountable..Our leaders allowed and appreciated unilaterlism..pakistan is a real sovreign?Army is accountable to civillian govt.The scenario creates trust deficit between These two main institutions.The unilateral act further derogated army and ISI .no doubt they have faults.But when we vehemently criticized army and ISI,THIS is the basic charter of zardari against Army,in ordr to riducule and make happy their demi god

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

Brother who says that army was defeated in Kargil? They had upper hand over Poor Indians. But it was Nawaz Shareef who had no courage to take stand on it. Everyone knows that he went to America straight from stadium (where he was playing cricket). Phr ja kr Clinton sy maafi mangnay lg gya k main ny kuch nhi kya, meray generals baat nhi suntay hein. If he had courage then he should gave orders to Air Force to help our Army. At that time we can easily capture Kashmir. But this man.......

Second thing is that ye mulk army aur ISI ki waja sy hi chal rha hy, in politicians ny tu hmein lootnay mein koi kasr nhi chhori hy. In corrupt politicians ki waja sy hi army ko hr baar interfere krna parrta hy. agr inhy army aur ISI ka dar na ho tu ye mulk ko hi baich dein. Shame on such Politicians...

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Kon Kehta hy k Main Gum-naam ho jaon ga
Main tu aik Baab hn Tareekh mein Likha jaon ga

It gives me feeling that you were accompanying Nawaz Shareef.

Just answer this. Why was Commission not set up to probe Kargil issue?
Infact,it was misadventure by Musharraf.I personally met a major,who has resigned after Kargil conflict,he was of the opinion that Musharraf sent us to die on peaks of Kargil by fooling the PM.

What a pity! Army ne 40 years rule kiya he Pakistan main.Inn 40 years main doodh ki Nehrain Baha dii hain unhon ne.

Army had not done anything wrong. So why there should be the need of any commission? Kashmir hasil krnay k liay koi plan bnana aur action lena ghalt tu nhi hy na...

First compare k corruption army ny ziada ki hy ya politicians ny?

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Kon Kehta hy k Main Gum-naam ho jaon ga
Main tu aik Baab hn Tareekh mein Likha jaon ga

You will decide that Army hasn't done anything wrong?
FYI,India had set up commission to exactly know how of Kargil.The Kargil Review Committee Report, commonly called the Subrahmanyam Report, was just a small step in the evolution of India’s civil-military balance. The politicians held their military accountable for the failures of Kargil.But, We never did that.

You can always held your Politicians accountable,but how can you make Army accountable?
Army ka budget pe kabhi Parliament pe behass nae hoi.Aur kabhi audit nae hua..ager yeh sabb ho to pata chale ke kitni corruption hoi.

“All praise is for the Almighty who bestowed sovereignty upon the army, then made the people subservient to the army and the army subservient to its own interests” — Justice M R Kayani

Here we are today, at the lowest point in our recent history. Found not in a cave of Tora Bora or in the ragged mountains of Waziristan but in the serenity of Abbottabad, living within a mile of the famous parade ground of PMA Kakul, next door neighbour to an Army Major and in the city that hosts three regimental centres, Osama Bin Laden, in our very own country. Many had feared that this day would come, but never imagined he would be living in such a suspiciously well protected manner.

By this time, I can assume with a high confidence that opinions and columns in the hundreds, if not thousands, have been written on what was Pakistan’s role in the raid, how Pakistan could have missed the most wanted man on Earth, what it means for Pakistan and how to move on. But, in the midst of all, we are losing a battle that we, the ‘bloody civilians’, have been eager to fight for too long.

Imagine this. The hurriedly called morning meeting at the roundtable in GHQ on May 2. Major and Lieutenant Generals tense and nervous, not knowing what to say. The General, K, possibly broke the ice by asking everyone about their last evening’s score on the 9-holes at the state subsidised Rawalpindi Golf Club. It was a birdie on the difficult 6th, he said. Oh, and he allegedly met the Chief Minister of Punjab too for some unknown reason.

What goes on in the corridors of military power is a mystery to us. What guides their actions remains a complex web of calculations, strategic they say, often immoral, disgusting, irrational and suicidal in our eyes. They value their assets, they hedge their bets and they play both sides of the game and try to bluff the single most powerful country in the world, to which they have played as a near mercenary force for a fair time (“Our Army can be Your Army” said Field Marshal Ayub Khan, the darling of the khaki apologists).

What we know today is that this is possibly the biggest embarrassment the military has faced in a long, long time. Forget 1971, it was far more morally disastrous but it had its jingoistic and racist supporters, but even in the eyes of the khaki-apologist, today the military is naked and deserving of criticism. The khaki apologist who becomes a constitutionalist when it comes to the failings of the army (the politicians are the constitutional power holders, they guided the actions, they “sold the country”, not the Army – is the usual defence) and are cognizant of the military’s powers only when it is on the good side of things, is angry today too. There are too many questions.

Did we protect him? Did we give him refuge? Why would we do that? If not, did we ignore his presence? Are we this incompetent? Did the Field Intelligence Unit (FIU) never ask a question about a mysterious seven kanal house with a three-story building, built by settlers known from being Waziristan? Is the holy mother of all agencies so inept and useless that in the sweeps done around areas visited regularly by the Army Chief and the upper hierarchy, they never got suspicious of the house and its residents? How did bin Laden come to Abbottabad in the first place? Did he take a Rs. 70, 13-seater Hiace ride from Mansehra and stop off at the Baloch Regimental Center?

If not, then why did they allow a foreign power to come in and hunt him down? Did our forces coordinate and collaborate with the US on the raid? Why are they not speaking? It is not as if they would not want to take credit for it. The logic of avoiding the local terrorists’ wrath is just too pathetic, they already target us. Mullah Omar’s, Hekmatyar’s and Haqqani’s anger be damned, this is their protector we are talking about. It is stupid, nay unimaginable, that our forces collaborated extensively and do not want to take credit for it. They would not risk inviting the wrath of the international media that they have called upon themselves today.

And then there is the ultimate nightmare. If they did not know about the operation, then really, like the Foreign Office in its poorly worded, shamefully funny press statement says, we failed to respond in time to nothing less than an invasion? At cruise speed, terrain hugging and avoiding radars, a UH-60 “Blackhawk” (or even the secretive stealth helicopter that are rumoured to have been used, although non-stealth Chinooks are alleged to have provided support too) would have easily spent more than 30 minutes inside Pakistani territory before the soldiers roped down into the compound. A 40-minute operation and then the return ride. In all, the US team spent at least an hour-and-a-half inside Pakistan and we failed to respond? Were our radars jammed completely? Did we even fail to respond to visual sighting of a bunch of helicopters? Is our response time so slow? With three regimental centres in a highly militarised town, no one was able to answer to a 40-minute ground operation by foreign forces? Are our defenses so inept and weak? Did we scramble jets? When did we, if, realise that it was a friendly country conducting an anti-terrorism raid and not “the enemy”? What is the purpose of keeping the armed forces if they consume such a large chunk of our budget and fail to respond to nothing less than an invasion that lasted for 90 full minutes?

I am, for not a single moment, arguing we should have shot down the Americans. I for one believe they did the right thing. For all we know, it was the nightmare we have, that some sympathetic group in our very forces protected the most wanted man on Earth. The questions I pose are the multitude that people from various facets of life and inclinations ask. They ask what would happen if India were to carry out the “surgical strike” that their jingoists threaten of? They ask, yes India is not the United States, but how could our air defense systems be so easily jammed and fooled and tricked? They ask, what is the response time to an invasion? What is the purpose of an Army that let’s others not just operate in its territory, but come in, operate and go back?

So, today, we are at a point where the Army’s defenses are weak. It is being criticised by the international community and ever so slightly, by locals too. But the criticism is weak and non-existent in comparison to what it should be. This is the time when the Army is rightfully exposed to the most criticism. If you ever held any views on civil-military balance that did not hold civilians in contempt, right now is the time to shout and be heard.

If there’s anything that can be guaranteed, it is that the military will remain the most dominant player in the echelons of power for the times to come. And because that will happen, we will continue to fight for “strategic depth” in Afghanistan, we will continue to hold India as the mortal enemy, we will continue to amass even more nuclear weapons, procure even more fighter jets and buy another air refueler and what not. We will remain an impoverished, militarised, third world country. And as long as we remain militarised, and existing only to fight against the mythical enemy, the schools will remain dysfunctional, the hospitals non-existent and the people, poor, hungry and malnutritioned.

Barely 40 hours before the United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group, or SEAL Team Six, fast roped down into the compound of Osama bin Laden, our Army Chief told a ceremony at the annual ‘Youm-e-Shuhuda’ (Day of the Martyrs) that prosperity must not come at the cost of honour and dignity. Where was the honour and dignity when, like the Foreign Office says, soldiers from another country basically invaded ours, operated and went back, without even so much as a bird being swatted in response?

The political process is an evolutionary one. Slowly, and slowly, we are moving towards a functional democracy. A Public Accounts Committee functions well today, maybe another institution of accountability and justice and public service will improve tomorrow. The politics of urbanisation is here. But amongst all this evolutionary change, unless the fish with the small legs comes out of the water, the process of evolution will face the ultimate barrier – the military.

I do not aim to demonise the military here. Our soldiers have laid down immense sacrifices for the protection of our boundaries. They have protected us from threats, both internal and external. Even today, make no mistake, we are at a state of war for such a large active deployment of soldiers is nothing short of a full-fledged war, and they are the constant targets of the forces of evil and enemies of humanity. But it is the higher direction of war that is misguided and irrational. We wanted to liberate Kashmir in 1965 and we failed. It only resulted in a large loss of life, loss of sympathy for the Kashmir cause and a permanent setback to the economy. We sent soldiers to die on the peaks of Kargil, fooling a Prime Minister and a nation and thinking that the world would accept that those were “non-state actors” and not our own soldiers. We abandoned our own uniformed men to die on the peaks when we could not even supply them with the basic food supplies for our war was adventurous and the shenanigans of a would-be autocrat. We have lost too many soldiers to the misguided policies of our higher brass. The soldier is just a pawn in the games of the powerful, for his life is a small price in the game of chess they play.

For all their failings, the politicians we have are ones we elected. Incompetent, greedy and often despicable as they are (supporting rapists and honour killers), they represent the collective will of the people in a system marred by inefficiencies and problems. Today is the time for them to come into action. It is not the time to be busy installing gas pipes in UC-84 of Muzaffargarh or to be making sure that their brothers and cousins got the 10 kilometre road construction contract. Today is the time to hold the military accountable for their failures and their actions and bring some direction to the state of affairs.

If there was a time for all facets of society to collectively bargain for change and demand action, this is the time. Come what may, a loosely tied group of non-elected, unelectable, “civil society activists” cannot bring change. Change has to come from the political class. Only they have the tools and the platform to do it. It is directly affected by the media and the perceived voice of the public. The fire breathing demagogues of television ape each other. Kharbooza kharboozey ko dekh kar rang pakarta hai. One of them rips apart a poetic self-righteous line on sovereignty and others feel the need to do so. Imagine that if we can collectively raise hue and cry, how the politicians cannot become sensible and secure enough to take action and hold the military accountable. While it would be commendable if they could resign for their failures, but they get extensions, it is upto the public to demand accountability. Intelligence failures in 1965 were never addressed, the concerned officer was promoted(!). In 1999, the adventurer toppled the government. Isn’t it time we demanded accountability of the powerful and unaccountable?

The Kargil Review Committee Report, commonly called the Subrahmanyam Report, was just a small step in the evolution of India’s civil-military balance. The politicians held their military accountable for the failures of Kargil. We never did that. Today is the most opportune time to do that. Constitute a Parliamentary Commission, for we do not have a Subrahmanyam, nor should we rely on ex-bureaucrats to do that. Select a few hawks, a Tehmina Daultana and a Khawaja Asif. Select a few mild, calculated and efficient politicians, a Raza Rabbani and SherryRehman. Do not put dubiously pro-military politicians like Chaudhry Nisar or ex-generals like Jehangir Ashraf Qazi on it. Summon the DG ISI, DG MI, DG IB. Summon the Army Chief. Summon the bureaucrats. Summon the experts. Summon everybody. Make them testify. Ask them the tough questions. Make the report, if not the proceedings, public.

What should they ask them? I cannot imagine that anybody would even want to ask the unimaginable (did we protect him?). It can only be an intelligence failure inquiry. The good that can come out of this exercise is enormous. A much needed and necessary reform in the intelligence community, a reform in the civil-military balance and a reform in the culture that defines the rules of Islamabad. For once, we could even bring the ISI under civilian control and make it focus on intelligence and counter-terrorism not chasing journalists on CD-70s. For once, we could, just maybe, begin to redress the civilian-military [im]balance in the favour of the civilians. Define the policy, make the policy and own it. Do not let the Generals do it for you anymore. We can, for the first time ever, dream of a national security and foreign policy dictated not by Rawalpindi and Aabpara, but one where civilians make competent decisions, impose their supervision and enable the military to competently implement it.

The op-ed writers, the TV anchors and the pundits are busy answering the questions that either the west has or the old, aged line around the smokescreen of sovereignty. They are missing the point. There is good that holds for us in this.

In the wake of 1971, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto passed gagging orders to prevent the media from criticising the military. The soldiers who returned later were protected by the state and no one was allowed to criticise their actions. Their honour was literally restored by Bhutto. And they sent him to the gallows.

We must not put a shroud on the failures of the military anymore. We have embarrassed our country a lot already. Today is the time for reform, redress and for us to start a new beginning.The military must face music for its actions and failures. Civilian power must be recognised. Strike while the iron is hot.

Grab the reins of power | | DAWN.COM

koi army ko kuch nai bolta but I am happy to see few guys here dare to speak against army.. though i am not his supporter, i still salute Nawaz, nisar n few others of his team who dare to speak against army.. chalo koi tu paida huwa army ke taiwar theek karney k liye.. i don't know what the agenda or propaganda N-league have after taking stance against army and agencies but at least they dare to do that.. it's commendable.. salute to them.. they seem real democrats now..
dear salick i totally stand on your side.. whatever you think is laudable and praiseworthy... i wish that everybody could have thoughts like you.. this country badly needs people like you.. this is the high time now.. wake up Pakistan..!!