The thread is getting really hot by the timely participation of Impossible, and all other members. The replies are really analytical and descriptive in their approach like Khuram, Khyber and Nour.

I would like to ask few questions as raised by Javediqbalnizami (Junior Member) although Impossible tried to provide timely answer but its not sufficient. I was one among those who always supported Musharaf's stay in the office. But his recent movements and views as presented in his autobiography changed my perspective regarding his ability to deal affairs. Almost every fact presented in the book is denied by the related personnals, so what is the validity of book? even if you will read the columns now a days written about book round the world are showing him a wrong choice to stay in the office. He has said that his mother and father both won a price for dancing and even he start his morning with music... so are we governed by a muslim ruler? we should peep into the reality and shall get the indication of time. I m also in the favour that Imran Khan should be given a chance to hold office and he will be the best choice for Pakistan.

I always admired his foriegn policy and so the same now. But what if internal affairs are not handled in the right way...? You can never make your position outside if you r not strong at your home. And he is unable to handle domestic affairs. We can see its worst example in Balochistan, even the rate of crimes is rising very high all over the country. World ranking has provided the fact that its the time when curroption reached its highest in Pakistan even more than any Political government.... do he has an answer to it..? definately not. To govern a country its first requirement to maintain peace and inflation within the reach of a common man.... but its not the case now. Yes political goverments do the same but Army is one we trust them as the most reliable and honest department in Pakistan but their rule has spoiled that image. So its better to give a chance to political tennure for holding affairs, it will help in stabalizing political system in pakistan.

Even statistical malingering in economical survey cant withstand before a lay man even so no question arise for expert opinion. There are few good points about his stay and that is high rate of investment from other countries that provided Pakistan with new resources and helped to reduce poverty.

[QUOTE]Fact is that constitution is not powerful than the power of Army chief.[/QUOTE]

Dear Brother, you seem to have subscribed to this conclusion that Army cheif is all-in-all and constitution has no worth before him.

But in a civilized countries, no one can neither challenge the constitution and nor one can excel one's power over any consolidated constitution.

Mr. K. Robertson writes in his Book, "Pakistan Odyssey" P.No.198

"...........In Pakistan Law makers are law breakers........There will be some laws and constitution in paradise but Pakistan is a lawless paradise......."

This is the reason that why we still fall in list of retrogressive countries because neither we have a consolidated constitution which defines the future road-map and nor do we have any destination. we are like a sinking boat and our corrupt politicians have brought this country at the verge of destruction.

Thurgood Marshall (1908–1993), U.S. jurist. ones said about constitution,

[B]If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a state has no business telling a man, sitting in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch. Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds.[/B]

Kind Regards,
Khyber-e-Pukhtunistan

[QUOTE]Miss_Naqvi
Member [/QUOTE]

You have raised some good points in your post sister. Article of Hamid Mir in yesterday's Jhang titled "Munafikat" is worthy of reading because it unleashes the true face of our president.

[B]He has said that his mother and father both won a price for dancing and even he start his morning with music... so are we governed by a muslim ruler? [/B]

Dear sister you are being ruled by second Ata Turk of this century who destroyed the Ottoman Empire which was an Islamic Center of the whole ummah and all issues vis-a-vis ummah were resolved and voiced from that center.

Musharaf is duplicating the governance of Attaturk who relienquished all cultural and moral values and adopted some innovative codes of culture. But sister, here we need to realize that cultural oppression never leads to an excellence or peace and progress. if to relinquish your cultural values brings prosperities and helps you in building your progressive image in the world's eye then i think today the turkey would have become the world leader. But neither it became a world leader and nor did it contribute anything to the ummah.

But who can deny the importance of Ottoman Empire which contributed in every realm of muslim's life. it contributed to literautre, culture, values, above all it united the whole ummah at one forum.

Kind Regards,

[QUOTE=Khyber]

From constitution of Pakistan,

[B]“Functions of Armed Forces.- 1[(1)][/B]
[I]
"The Armed Forces shall, under the directions of the Federal Government, defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war, and, subject to law, act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.” [/I]

Civil power means in terms of natural disasters and calmities, they can be called upon only and not to rule the country.

Regards,
Khyber[/QUOTE]

Do u think hat constitutional amendments have left anything good in the constitution??? Anyway the clause that u have highlighted just exist in words. Meanings of the things are changing with the passage of time.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khuram]

Fact is that constitution is not powerful than the power of Army chief.[/QUOTE]

Well this is another minus point of army govt, they amends the consitution that many times that no good things can be applicable. If they want to apply anything from the constituion, they amend it the way they want to amend.

Regards

[QUOTE=Miss_Naqvi]The thread is getting really hot by the timely participation of Impossible, and all other members. The replies are really analytical and descriptive in their approach like Khuram, Khyber and Nour .[/QUOTE]

Thnx 4 appreciation, we ll really love to have u over here wid us.

[QUOTE=Miss_Naqvi]I would like to ask few questions as raised by Javediqbalnizami (Junior Member) although Impossible tried to provide timely answer but its not sufficient. I was one among those who always supported Musharaf's stay in the office. But his recent movements and views as presented in his autobiography changed my perspective regarding his ability to deal affairs. Almost every fact presented in the book is denied by the related personnals, so what is the validity of book? even if you will read the columns now a days written about book round the world are showing him a wrong choice to stay in the office. He has said that his mother and father both won a price for dancing and even he start his morning with music... so are we governed by a muslim ruler? we should peep into the reality and shall get the indication of time. I m also in the favour that Imran Khan should be given a chance to hold office and he will be the best choice for Pakistan.[/QUOTE]

Well again.......i must say , it depend upon situations that how a person respond to different sort of situations. If Musharraf has done a lot many good things for us, then what if he is doing a little bad things too during his regime. Imran Khan is a good option but what would u do with the democratic system that is prevailing in Pakistan? It has strenghtened its roots and u cant change it anyway.

[QUOTE=Miss_Naqvi]I always admired his foriegn policy and so the same now. But what if internal affairs are not handled in the right way...? You can never make your position outside if you r not strong at your home. And he is unable to handle domestic affairs. We can see its worst example in Balochistan, even the rate of crimes is rising very high all over the country. World ranking has provided the fact that its the time when curroption reached its highest in Pakistan even more than any Political government.... do he has an answer to it..? definately not. To govern a country its first requirement to maintain peace and inflation within the reach of a common man.... but its not the case now. Yes political goverments do the same but Army is one we trust them as the most reliable and honest department in Pakistan but their rule has spoiled that image. So its better to give a chance to political tennure for holding affairs, it will help in stabalizing political system in pakistan.

Even statistical malingering in economical survey cant withstand before a lay man even so no question arise for expert opinion. There are few good points about his stay and that is high rate of investment from other countries that provided Pakistan with new resources and helped to reduce poverty.[/QUOTE]

No doubt, Musharaf has done a lot for Pakistan, but people are opposing him coz sometimes we see the darkest side of the picture. So we fail to judge a person. We need to be optimistic and think over the postive things about our other politicians too. But how to think about positive things about those politicians who are openely involved in corruption, etc ???

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]Mr. K. Robertson writes in his Book, "Pakistan Odyssey" P.No.198

"...........In Pakistan Law makers are law breakers........There will be some laws and constitution in paradise but Pakistan is a lawless paradise......."

This is the reason that why we still fall in list of retrogressive countries because neither we have a consolidated constitution which defines the future road-map and nor do we have any destination. we are like a sinking boat and our corrupt politicians have brought this country at the verge of destruction. [/QUOTE]

I agree to this point of yours, army is basically involved in the amenment of constitution. No doubt, Musharraf also amended it.

[QUOTE=Khyber]Thurgood Marshall (1908–1993), U.S. jurist. ones said about constitution,

B]If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a state has no business telling a man, sitting in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch. Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Yeah general public is obolovian of he politial system. But it is good in a sense coz Pakistani public is mostly illeterate. While others who r literatte can use thier mind to play their role in the political system.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]
Musharaf is duplicating the governance of Attaturk who relienquished all cultural and moral values and adopted some innovative codes of culture. But sister, here we need to realize that cultural oppression never leads to an excellence or peace and progress. if to relinquish your cultural values brings prosperities and helps you in building your progressive image in the world's eye then i think today the turkey would have become the world leader. But neither it became a world leader and nor did it contribute anything to the ummah.

But who can deny the importance of Ottoman Empire which contributed in every realm of muslim's life. it contributed to literautre, culture, values, above all it united the whole ummah at one forum.

Kind Regards,[/QUOTE]

Well its is good that at least, u counted the positive points of Ottoman Empire otherwise i was thinking that optimism has been lost somewhere. Hope Musharraf would be able to excluiude his minus points for the sake of pakistanis.

Regards

@ Miss_Naqvi

So you are against Musharraf for why he told the truth that his father and mother both had won prize in dancing...???

According to you, in this way, we are not living under the rule of a Muslim.

Well,,, But please try to consider some facts of the so called 'glorious' Muslim rule. This is a fact that all the Abbasid Caliphs, except for only two, were the childs of 'kaneezes'... i.e. their mothers were not the legitimate wives of their fathers. Abbasid caliphs used to 'purchase' beautiful women from around different countries and many of those women happened to be expert of dancing etc. also.

Respected Mr. Khyber:

Ottoman Empire had flourished in those periods when Muslim Societies had been declined in the areas of art, literature, culture and values etc. The glorious period of Muslim culture was the early Abbasid era. Abbasid era ended on 1258 when Mangols conquered and destroyed Iraq.

Ottomans have no positive contributions towards the intellectual growth of Muslim Nation. An Egeptian Muslim scholar has written, "had we not the slave of Ottomans then we also would be having many intellectual achievements and Muslim mindset would have to be more progressed and developed than to our contemporary Western mindset."

We were not the slaves of Ottomans ... perhaps thats why we had launched 'Khilafat Movement' in sub-continent with the view to protect Ottoman Khilafat. Arab rulers, on the other hand, had made agreement with Britain for getting freedom from Turky (Ottoman Empire) ... during World War-I.

And Attaturk was the outcome of the grave failure of Ottoman rule. His people had welcomed him. His ideas flopped because he had no clear vision of his own. He was just inspired by the superior Western Culture (Just like Sir Syed also was inspired by the superior Western culture). And there is no valid similarity between the case of Attaturk and Musharraf. Musharraf is only negating the currently prevalent intolerant type attitudes of Muslim societes. He is not wrong in his point of view. If you try to find the roots of intolerant attitudes in Muslim societies ... you would find them in the early sect of Islam known as 'Khawarjities'... And remember that Hazrat Ali (RA) had been killed by an extremist Khawarji person.

Those Khawajities,,, just like our contemporary extremists, considered themselves the most pious Muslims on the face of earth .... obviously more pious even than Hazrat Ali (RA)... They were really 'brave' exactly as per the standard of Taliban type 'bravery'.... Their rigidity in the offer of prayers was perhaps far more than that of Taliban.

Musharraf is only opposing this type of Islam .... whose roots lie in the early Khawarji faith.

And it is nice to see that Imran Khan is getting popularity on this forum. I however want to inform the respected forum members that our people would never elect him. If all the forum members would vote him, still there would be far less chances that his party might win just few seats.

Elections have their own very complicated dynamics. Competent people cannot win this type of elections... Only 'clever' people can win this type of elections.

Secondly Imran is getting popularity on this forum just because respected members have not found any other alternative of Musharraf. In my opinion however, even Imran is not the alternative of Musharrraf... But in my assessment ... he is the best option ... AFTER Musharraf.

Thanks!

@impossible

I have no intension what so ever to insult any Pakistani by the saying that you are thinking in Pakistani way. What I want to pin point is narrow point of views on events the Q? (Do we need Musharaf???) is political one yet most people does not understand politics most of comments her are referred as general comments or historical events . The Q? Here should here must be what the power that is keeping Musharaf in power is
Let me give you some directions
Politics is not the name of getting into power it is that you get your work done here one should understand the concepts of politics which is good and politicking which is bad . Many of you have talked about Mr. NAWAZ you should know it was army general how made the PML(n) at the first place…………… you will get the idea.
To understand the true nature of international politics one must understand factor involved such socio-economics. Geopolitics, culture and so on let me point the most important factor that we lack as nation is out identification.

@ khuram
I see you as person how thinks dynamically but you should consider Islam’s political culture you will get difference what made us what we are what made USA what they are
Here is a BOOK if you can get to it Islam’s political culture by Nasim Ahmad jawed published by oxford

@khyber
you do face issue of identification do not take it hard but it is fact. The link that you have given Pakistan 'is a top failed state this scale is used for economical purpose you should not take it wrong you must understand it context . for you go to this link tell if you want more
[url]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_marapr_2004/countrydetail.php?country=Pakistan[/url]