Do we need Musharaf ???
 

[B]Do we really need Musharaf to hold the reins of Pakistan or Pakistan would be in a better scenerio after him ???[/B]

We Need Musharaf....?????????
 

[QUOTE=impossible][B]Do we really need Musharaf to hold the reins of Pakistan or Pakistan would be in a better scenerio after him ???[/B][/QUOTE]
I DO NOT THINK WE NEED MUSHARAF OR ANY OTHER BODY ON CHAIR OF THE PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN OR AS CHIEF OF ARMY STAFF BECAUSE HE WHO IS PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN,PRIME MINISTER OR ARMY CHIEF,CONSIDERS HIMSELF THE ONLY SANE AND SINCERE OF ALL PAKISTANIS UNTIL HE IS REMOVED FROM THE POSITION AND POWER.WHOM WE SHOULD TRUST?IMPOSSIBLE..

Musharaf or no Musharaf??

the question tat we need Mushraf can only be answered if we can suggest sumone capable enough to replace him and i m sorry to admitt tat in the political stage of Pakistan .. there is ON ONE ...

wat do u say????
________
I m an Idealist , i dono where i m going but i m on my way

salam
if we look at the world scenario and situation in pakistan then it feels like we need a strict and composed leader that gives priority to national intersts.

i think PRESIDENT is using the technique BETTER BEND THAN BREAK with USA. sometime to get your work done you need to loss a bit but not all .we cannot fight with US.you know the BUSH has gone nuts after osama and we if show little attitude we could be next in the pipeline.if u understand what i mean.
at this situation our PRESIDENT is the best option.atleast he is not a lier and tells us everything.
we rather be saying that do we need BUSH 4 future world.????????

definitely not.
regards

[QUOTE=FRIEND]I DO NOT THINK WE NEED MUSHARAF OR ANY OTHER BODY ON CHAIR OF THE PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN OR AS CHIEF OF ARMY STAFF BECAUSE HE WHO IS PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN,PRIME MINISTER OR ARMY CHIEF,CONSIDERS HIMSELF THE ONLY SANE AND SINCERE OF ALL PAKISTANIS UNTIL HE IS REMOVED FROM THE POSITION AND POWER.WHOM WE SHOULD TRUST?IMPOSSIBLE..[/QUOTE]

Yeah, this hot seat is also fed up wid all sort of corrupt people ruling Pakistan.

[QUOTE=hina]Musharaf or no Musharaf??

the question tat we need Mushraf can only be answered if we can suggest sumone capable enough to replace him and i m sorry to admitt tat in the political stage of Pakistan .. there is ON ONE ...

wat do u say????
________
I m an Idealist , i dono where i m going but i m on my way[/QUOTE]


Yeah, i must say that the past of our politicians shows that they are non-reliable.

[QUOTE=afrms]salam
if we look at the world scenario and situation in pakistan then it feels like we need a strict and composed leader that gives priority to national intersts.

i think PRESIDENT is using the technique BETTER BEND THAN BREAK with USA. sometime to get your work done you need to loss a bit but not all .we cannot fight with US.you know the BUSH has gone nuts after osama and we if show little attitude we could be next in the pipeline.if u understand what i mean.
at this situation our PRESIDENT is the best option.atleast he is not a lier and tells us everything.
we rather be saying that do we need BUSH 4 future world.????????

definitely not.
regards[/QUOTE]

That is what i wanted to narrate that we really dont have any other best option than Musharraf then y we oppose him when he is writing a book. He must have solid rationales behind that. It is like a Hobson's choice offered to us.We need to have faith in him, at least.

well it is a long debate that either we need musharaf or not
Well he has good qualities of leadership. But think what is the situation of Pakistan, either Pakistan is going well in economic field, either pakistan is Governed according to Islamic teachings"not even in the past", what is the situation of a common man, Is common man is satisfied with the present govt policies which are directly concerned with common man. what about the corruption in th Govt. which is 67 %. and on high rise. what is the situation of prices of commodaties which are already touching sky. What the benefit we are getting from USA "as we are the major NON Nato ally" ? what about the policies of Musharaf Govt. and many other things which we have to consider while making this decision.
If we think on all these issues, then i must say that Musharaf must Go.....Let's give a chance to some one else.....Or Musharaf should change its policies ........

[QUOTE=humayun "The King"]well it is a long debate that either we need musharaf or not
Well he has good qualities of leadership. But think what is the situation of Pakistan, either Pakistan is going well in economic field, either pakistan is Governed according to Islamic teachings"not even in the past", what is the situation of a common man, Is common man is satisfied with the present govt policies which are directly concerned with common man. what about the corruption in th Govt. which is 67 %. and on high rise. what is the situation of prices of commodaties which are already touching sky. What the benefit we are getting from USA "as we are the major NON Nato ally" ? what about the policies of Musharaf Govt. and many other things which we have to consider while making this decision.
If we think on all these issues, then i must say that Musharaf must Go.....Let's give a chance to some one else.....Or Musharaf should change its policies ........[/QUOTE]

[LIST=1][*]What are those policies which need to be changed??? [*]Who will be that someone else to whom we give a chance to rule over pakistan ???[/LIST]

@ impossible i think u are clever enough and u should know wat i am pointing here..............
Rule of law
What about the rise of prices in the country.
What about the corruotion in the country.
What about other things in the country. "many more"
Policies regarding these things should be changed....
Some one else...Pure democratic Govt {i mean to say}....
wat about if a chance is given to U........

[QUOTE=impossible][LIST=1][*]What are those policies which need to be changed??? [*]Who will be that someone else to whom we give a chance to rule over pakistan ???[/LIST][/QUOTE]
ALL POLICIES NEED TO BE CHANGED:
SOME ONE WHO IS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY BY THE PEOPLE BE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO RULE 'US'.

Rule of Law: For example Nawaz Sharif gets 2/3rd majority in Parliment. He would change all the constitution and would become constitutional dictator. Every illegal act would become 'as per law' ... as per his policies.

Rise of Prices: Plz consider the prices of Telecommunication facilities. Also compare the number of computer and mobile phone users with facts and figures of 1999... Also compare the number of people who are having their own cars ... with 1999 figures.

Corruption: Yar ander ki baat hai.... Corruption really has been controlled up to more than 90% ... at least in Federal Taxation departments.... I know as being employee of Federal Government Tax department.

Other things: Many other things are also under control...

Need for change in Policies: Yes there is continuous and infinite need to change the policies ... mostly in forward and consistant direction.

Someone Else: Pure democracy has been failed in Pakistan.... Only good dictatorship is the right solution for Pakistan... We are already having it.

If I am given chance: I shall introduce still many more changes .... And general public shall not like my changes ... But since I shall introduce those changes in good faith, and for the betterment of country, so I shall not care whether people would like my policies or not.

Thanks!

[QUOTE=Khuram]Rule of Law: For example Nawaz Sharif gets 2/3rd majority in Parliment. He would change all the constitution and would become constitutional dictator. Every illegal act would become 'as per law' ... as per his policies.

Rise of Prices: Plz consider the prices of Telecommunication facilities. Also compare the number of computer and mobile phone users with facts and figures of 1999... Also compare the number of people who are having their own cars ... with 1999 figures.

Corruption: Yar ander ki baat hai.... Corruption really has been controlled up to more than 90% ... at least in Federal Taxation departments.... I know as being employee of Federal Government Tax department.

Other things: Many other things are also under control...

Need for change in Policies: Yes there is continuous and infinite need to change the policies ... mostly in forward and consistant direction.

Someone Else: Pure democracy has been failed in Pakistan.... Only good dictatorship is the right solution for Pakistan... We are already having it.

If I am given chance: I shall introduce still many more changes .... And general public shall not like my changes ... But since I shall introduce those changes in good faith, and for the betterment of country, so I shall not care whether people would like my policies or not.

Thanks![/QUOTE]
YOU ARE RIGHT.
THIS IS THE THING THAT MUST BE GIVEN SOME SERIOUS CONSIDERATION.IF NAWAZ IS ELECTED AND HE AMENDS CONSTITUTION,IT IS HIS RIGHT AND HE IS AUTHORISED BY THE MASSES THROUGH ELECTION.IF HE,NAWAZ,AMENDS CONSTITUTION AGAINST THE INTERST OF THE STATE AND PEOPLE,THEY SHOULD REACT AGAINST IT AS HE IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE TO PUBLIC,NOT ANY BODY ELSE.BUT I CRY THAT IT IS EDUCATION WHICH IS NOT COMMON AND MOST OF MASSES ARE UNAWARE OF CONSTITUTION AND POLICIES.SEE WHAT GOES ON IN INDIA.
CORRUPTION?????????
WHO SAYS CORRUPTION HAS BEEN CONTROLLED?WHAT HAPPENED TO EARTH QUAKE VICTIMS?WHERE DID GO THE FUNDS?WHO MISUSED?
IF YOU AND YOUR DEPARTMENT ARE EXPETIONS,ITS GOOD..........!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=humayun "The King"]@ impossible i think u are clever enough and u should know wat i am pointing here..............[/QUOTE]

Thnx 4 the compilments !!!

[QUOTE=humayun "The King"]@ Rule of law
What about the rise of prices in the country.
What about the corruotion in the country.
What about other things in the country. "many more"
Policies regarding these things should be changed....
Some one else...Pure democratic Govt {i mean to say}....[/QUOTE]


Poliicies are responsible to an extent but u cant put the whole blame on policies.

[LIST=1][*]Yeah price rise is a big question mark but it has many rationales behind them, these all rationales need to be taken in consederation.
[*]Corrupion is increasing due to corrupr people fo Pakistan. everybody should be loyal on his/her own behalf.[/LIST]
Other things also need proper treatment. Mitigation measures are required to be taken in time.


[QUOTE=humayun "The King"]@ wat about if a chance is given to U........ [/QUOTE]

I am not a princess but hey what if the crown fits !!!

Its all the matter of chance. This hot seat of politics is that much instable that nobody dare to hold it for long.

[QUOTE=FRIEND]ALL POLICIES NEED TO BE CHANGED:.[/QUOTE]

Policies need to be changed but not all of the policies need to be changed. Some of them are the need of the day and they should exist.

[QUOTE=FRIEND]SOME ONE WHO IS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY BY THE PEOPLE BE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO RULE 'US'.[/QUOTE]

[B]Democracy + good governance[/B] will probably work.

Well u wrote US...Is it United States ??? Janab US has nothing to do wid our politics. US should not poke his nose into our affairs.

[QUOTE=Khuram]Rule of Law: For example Nawaz Sharif gets 2/3rd majority in Parliment. He would change all the constitution and would become constitutional dictator. Every illegal act would become 'as per law' ... as per his policies.

Rise of Prices: Plz consider the prices of Telecommunication facilities. Also compare the number of computer and mobile phone users with facts and figures of 1999... Also compare the number of people who are having their own cars ... with 1999 figures.

Corruption: Yar ander ki baat hai.... Corruption really has been controlled up to more than 90% ... at least in Federal Taxation departments.... I know as being employee of Federal Government Tax department.

Other things: Many other things are also under control...

Need for change in Policies: Yes there is continuous and infinite need to change the policies ... mostly in forward and consistant direction.[/QUOTE]

Agreed !!!

[QUOTE=Khuram]Someone Else: Pure democracy has been failed in Pakistan.... Only good dictatorship is the right solution for Pakistan... We are already having it. [/QUOTE]


Democracy + good governance will probably work. (as we have discussed earlier)

[QUOTE=Khuram]If I am given chance: I shall introduce still many more changes .... And general public shall not like my changes ... But since I shall introduce those changes in good faith, and for the betterment of country, so I shall not care whether people would like my policies or not.

Thanks! [/QUOTE]

But u need to have the public opinion. People must have their says. Their says should be considered coz people have the right to say their says. Yeah it is up to u that u should not agree to all of their says but some of those says matter. This idea will work.

Regards

[QUOTE=FRIEND]
WHO SAYS CORRUPTION HAS BEEN CONTROLLED?WHAT HAPPENED TO EARTH QUAKE VICTIMS?WHERE DID GO THE FUNDS?WHO MISUSED?
IF YOU AND YOUR DEPARTMENT ARE EXPETIONS,ITS GOOD..........!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Well i think corruption is flowing in our blood. Pakistanis need to be loyal and true muslims. They have to be theirself. They should be loyal on their own behalves so they could ameliorate Pakistan.

These r after effects that finally people have accepted the current scenerio...
Our syllabue is being changed,we r not safe externally and internally..now we have to open our eyes for both india and afghanistan...what was the number of soldiers on the border with afghanistan n what's current strength....
In balochistan situation is more worst ..as balouchi sardars in the supervision of Khan of Qalat have passed resolution to chalange their affiliation with pakistan in United nations......our meida is going boldly and badly..now TV is not an entertaining media for us..we have to care whether we r alone or with father or brother....Changes in hudoud ordinance...what r these???
The things which mushrraf is soing and steps taking...This can be done by any dis honest,and a so called muslims person...an in today's scenerio one can fine not one but more than 50% such leaders....
We think according to the curent situation...
think in the lightof Quraan And Hadees...U people have fear of USA....
I must say that b4 getting marry,job,or taking responsibility ,we should completely understand Quraan And Hadess..I m sure after understanding our thinking,and secisions would be changed....
decisions taken by USA and Kuffar like ISreal,India and europe these r predictions of ISlam....Kuffars r themselves helpless..remember wars could be won by Jaza-i- Iman faith ...if u think that USA is more powertful then tomorrow
will u think Inida is more powerful than paksitan so bow urself infront of him,surrender in Kashmir.....
now the choce is ur's...

@ Impossible

I am not against considering public opinion. Government MUST invite suggestions and proposals from general public also. But whether or not to take decisions on the basis of those suggestions should be at the sole discretion of Government. Only valid and effective check on the decisions of Government seems to me that one which I have explained in other thread.

Thanks!

[QUOTE=NouR]These r after effects that finally people have accepted the current scenerio...
Our syllabue is being changed,we r not safe externally and internally..now we have to open our eyes for both india and afghanistan...what was the number of soldiers on the border with afghanistan n what's current strength....
In balochistan situation is more worst ..as balouchi sardars in the supervision of Khan of Qalat have passed resolution to chalange their affiliation with pakistan in United nations......our meida is going boldly and badly..now TV is not an entertaining media for us..we have to care whether we r alone or with father or brother....Changes in hudoud ordinance...what r these???
The things which mushrraf is soing and steps taking...This can be done by any dis honest,and a so called muslims person...an in today's scenerio one can fine not one but more than 50% such leaders....
We think according to the curent situation...
think in the lightof Quraan And Hadees...U people have fear of USA....
I must say that b4 getting marry,job,or taking responsibility ,we should completely understand Quraan And Hadess..I m sure after understanding our thinking,and secisions would be changed....
decisions taken by USA and Kuffar like ISreal,India and europe these r predictions of ISlam....Kuffars r themselves helpless..remember wars could be won by Jaza-i- Iman faith ...if u think that USA is more powertful then tomorrow
will u think Inida is more powerful than paksitan so bow urself infront of him,surrender in Kashmir.....
now the choce is ur's...[/QUOTE]

There are after effects of every policy. We must admit it. These after effects need to be mitigated in time. They can be mitigated by proper plans.

Well i am not saying that we should bow ourself in front of India, US or whoever. I just try to convey the idea that we dont have any other option. We have to be an ally of wst to save our souls. This is important for our very existence. We should not be scared of US but we should follow the order of the day. Yhis will solve our problems in one way or another.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khuram]@ Impossible

I am not against considering public opinion. Government MUST invite suggestions and proposals from general public also. But whether or not to take decisions on the basis of those suggestions should be at the sole discretion of Government. Only valid and effective check on the decisions of Government seems to me that one which I have explained in other thread.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Right !!! I was also saying the same thing in my own words.

@ NoUR

You should point out in which point in history we were safe internally and externally? At which point in history we had not been involved in fighting with one another. Were we more safe internally and externally during the period of Emperor Babur...??? Babur had established his government after defeating and killing another Muslim king Ibrahim Lodhi. Babur was in habit of making minarits of human skulls even if he won bettle against other Muslims. For his whole life he had been fighting against his own relatives and other Muslim rulers.

Was we more safe in the period of Sher Shah...?? He had defeated Hamayoon, the son of Babur. Were we more safe in the period of Hamayoon's next short regime...??? He had defeated the descendents of Sher Shah. Were we more safe in the period of Akber...??? Muslim rule in India had reaced at its peak during the period of Akber. But we do not want to consider him Muslim.

Were we more safe during the period of Alamgir...??? He had managed to become King after killing his brothers and sending his father to prison. After becoming king, he had fought with his own sons. He had imprisoned his own grand sons and grand daughters. His grand sons and grand daughters had been remained in imprison for more than 40 years. Aurangzeb Alamgir had destroyed many Hindu temples. He had killed small innocent childs of Sikh Guru... Were we safe in the period of Alamgir...????

Were we safe in the periods of later Mughal kings ... and other rulers of Indian Muslim States...??? who used to keep 10 to 200 womens in their Herms... Nadir Shah had looted Mughal King's palace... What would have happened with general public then...???

You are having complaint that our syllabus is being changed. Does our syllabus tells us any of the above mentioned facts.

Our youth is the follower of those illusions which have been fed to their minds through our unreal and 'all is well' type syllabus. There is 'democracy' in India... Are people of India fully safe and sound...???

If Americans are safe and sound and if we also want to become safe and sound... Then we should become like leaders of USA... We should become clever and more selfish...

And which type of safety had the Taliban provided to Afghanistan...??? A Pakistani journalist Mr. Eqbal Ahmed had observed some Taliban rulers who were beating a small boy ... just because that boy was guilty of playing football. Playing footbal was ban under Taliban regime. Were Shias of Afghanistan safe under Taliban regime...??? Taliban government had given ultimatum to Shias of Bamian District of either to leave the country or to leave the Shia faith...

Our present government is far far better than our history or other available options. If we are having internal disputes, then it is we who should support the government so that government successfully resolve those outstanding issues.

Thanks!

@khurram

yes i agreed but if i say that u r 100% true in ur talk then it doesnt mean that ur appraoch is right..m sorry...
u talked about muslim regime ..u took examles from 12th to current century....ur talk will be completed if u put 6th centuary in this frame..in the start of islam when people were true muslims,they follow all the rules n regulations set by nabi SAW...
when muslims were more in number..give me even a single example.
in strength,in that time's technology,in number of horses,camels which were used in war..muslims were ver few ...
It was their true IMAN which showed them right path....
i m also have the same point of view that we should take decisions according to the situation..but at the same time we should examine our decisions in the light of islam n quraan..
Mughal emperors and others r criminals in a sense if u ask me....when the world was getting information from our muslims scholars books and research they were bz in poetry,women,and in building huge forts,and palaces.....
first of all we r muslims...Our decline started since that day when we left islam..in true meaning..what r true meaning??
stopped taking guidance from quraan....hided Quraan in a silk covering and placed in Almirah.
What is guarantee that USA will not attack Pakistan..and what u think only killing people is war..USA is in a state of war against Muslims and specially Pakistan since 9/11..
destroying our economy,culture,n many more....this is also war..
n past governments were also of bad reputation..but now the situation is getting more worst...
what about our atomic programme??what happened to dr Qadeer and other scientists????Defence is the majour requirement for a country..now who will wanna to serve pakistan ...when the end is like Dr Qadeer..
Now the USA demands to cooperate with india in crushing Kahmiri Mujahideen..so its means we surrender and accept that jammu is not a part of pakistan.....n american demands will incrase day by day just like a nakhrayli Mahbouba..jo kabhi b khush nahi hoti phir b...
there r USa troops in Pakistan,they come in pakistan whenever they want...we didnt appoint soldiers on Afghan border in the past but now several lakhs soldiers r there...
I accept that since 1948 pakistan is in deep deep troubles...
have good relations with all in the world but dont do this on the sacrifice of our own islam and priorities....
Believe me whether there is govt of Nawaz sharef,baynzir aor any general ..they would do the same as the musharraf is doing b/caz all of them have fear of America rather than having fear of God..
If mushrraf is true ..and take bold steps for the betterment of pakistan then y yet kala bagh dam is not constructed??y he dosent use his power there??
the only thing make a list of American demands
then think what if left in the bottom ..
there may b something but that wouldnt a country named Pakistan..

[QUOTE=impossible]There are after effects of every policy. We must admit it. These after effects need to be mitigated in time. They can be mitigated by proper plans.

Well i am not saying that we should bow ourself in front of India, US or whoever. I just try to convey the idea that we dont have any other option. We have to be an ally of wst to save our souls. This is important for our very existence. We should not be scared of US but we should follow the order of the day. Yhis will solve our problems in one way or another.

Regards[/QUOTE]
what u think USA will accept us as his ally..
His behaviour is like a boss who interferes in our personal affairs..our personal laws go to USa for approval.....can pakistan have courage to object against any USA law ...is turkey added to Eurpean Union..Turkey did every thing which mushrraf is doing right now???But whenever we r muslims they will take us as their enemy..this is not a stage of 2 countries negotiation,,,this is WAR between ISLAM n KUFFAR....but yet on the side of islam no leader is emerged...so v r moving here n there..just like a child who has forgotten the add of his house.. n dont know where to go..
the day will come when Khalid Bin walid RA like general will come...the day is not so far..until the arriaval of that day we would have to face more difficulties.....since it is start......Agay agay daikhye hota hai kia

[QUOTE=NouR]what u think USA will accept us as his ally..
His behaviour is like a boss who interferes in our personal affairs..our personal laws go to USa for approval.....can pakistan have courage to object against any USA law ...is turkey added to Eurpean Union..Turkey did every thing which mushrraf is doing right now???But whenever we r muslims they will take us as their enemy..this is not a stage of 2 countries negotiation,,,this is WAR between ISLAM n KUFFAR....but yet on the side of islam no leader is emerged...so v r moving here n there..just like a child who has forgotten the add of his house.. n dont know where to go..
the day will come when Khalid Bin walid RA like general will come...the day is not so far..until the arriaval of that day we would have to face more difficulties.....since it is start......Agay agay daikhye hota hai kia[/QUOTE]

US has accepted us an ally of him. It is totally out of question that it ll accept us or not. Yeah its behaviour is like a boss, i admit this. But i also admit that Pakistan is getting benefit of this alliance in one way or another.

It is a fight b/w Islam and Kuffar and we have to compromise on some of the things but not all of them.

Regards

Well you all have said it like I was expecting it to be the Pakistani way always taking thing in negative way how many you suggested any solution to these problems none but I have different views. Most of you people think in a very narrow prospective you should open up your minds think of environmental variable involved in the situation as for me I fully support the government of Musharaf. Most well most you people would not agree with that fine to me for them I give you a choice to pick a point let us share our views let see we have a common ground or not u r welcome

[QUOTE=jawadafzal]Well you all have said it like I was expecting it to be the Pakistani way always taking thing in negative way how many you suggested any solution to these problems none but I have different views. Most of you people think in a very narrow prospective you should open up your minds think of environmental variable involved in the situation as for me I fully support the government of Musharaf. Most well most you people would not agree with that fine to me for them I give you a choice to pick a point let us share our views let see we have a common ground or not u r welcome[/QUOTE]

Pakistanis are pretty optimistic. Dont make an insult of them buy saying that they think negatively.

Here, fisrt of all we are trying to dicuss the problem and its +ve and -ve impacts. Then we ould be in a better position to conclude this thread by putting fwrd the solutions. Here ppl are admiring as well as censuring the Musharaf's rule over Pakistan. Let us see which ay the wind flows and what we conclude in the end.

It is good that u are looking at the bright side of the picture, kindly add the solution to the negative points highlighted by all of us. We 'll really appreiate it.

Regards

salam! musharaf is not a bad choice coz we r not having any other genius man like him coz he kn0ows very well how 2 psychologically manipulate d others like bush n manmohan singh in havana that mr singh agreed 2 to restart peace process n even bush has praised him as a great leader but there r some weaknesses him as well he is a liar infact in some cases coz he promised 2 shed his uniform so many times but he has never done this but at d end i wana say that no 1 is perfect in this world.nothing is either good or bad but thinkings make it so but i agreee that musharaf is a hobson's choice coz at present moment we r not having any other smart man like to run d business of this state that is facing very hard challenges afs far a his book is concerned he is presenting d people of our own country in a bad manner this not agood practise it will effect our image in abroad that is already very bad altough he is narrating true events as d event of supreme court in 1997 but i think it is not a good practise to revear our own secrets 2 d others.

AssalamOalikum,

Khurram Bhai Jan, you seem to be quite mature in your discussion. I am just diverting the discussion is some other dimension of leadership.

Mr.Ghandi ones beautifully stated,

[B]"Leadership is the capability of translation or conversion of your vision into reality".[/B]

Now, recall the all perspectives of Quaid's vision and visualize that how far it has taken a shape of reality ?

By quoting Mr.Ghandi, please don't assume me as pro-indian but i look at this world very unbiasedly and we should, of course, if we want to excel in this ever challanging world because "ostrich approach" can no longer help us in standing in the line of civilized and developed countries.

Looking forward to your valuable thoughts,

Kind Regards,
Your's Brother

@ NouR

I accept your point of view regarding early true spirit of Islam. But we were talking of internal law and order situations. First ever disturbance in internal Law and order situation can be traced back to as early as the time of third Caliph Hazrat Usman (RA). Many Muslims had protested against the Khilafat of Hazrat Usman (RA) and at the end he was murdered in the hands of a Muslim.

The next Caliph was Hazrat Ali (RA). His Governer of Seria Hazrat Amir Maawia did not accept the authority of Hazrat Ali (RA) and he waged a war against Hazrat Ali (RA) with the demand of handing over the killers of Hazrat Usman (RA) to him. The war broke out in the bettle field of 'Siffin' and so this war is known as war of Siffin. Some prominent companions of Prophet (PBUH) took the side of Amir Maawia in that war. This bettle remained undecisive due to clever diplomacy of Amir Maawia because when he anticipated his defeat in war, he then raised the demand of settling down the issue as per the teachings of Quran. Hazrat Ali (RA) accepted his demand but a group of extremist Muslims (now known as 'Khawaraj') out of the army of Hazrat Ali (RA) did not accept the decision of Hazrat Ali (RA). That group i.e. Khawarjities, blamed Hazrat Ali (RA) for not following the teachings of Quran. After it the group of Khawarjities launched a gurilla type war against Hazrat Ali (RA). Khawarjities made conspiracy plan of killing Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Maawia (RA) both and two different persons were given the responsibility of killing both the personalities separately. The person whose assignment was to kill Hazrat Maawia could not succeed in his mission but the other person succeeded in killing Hazrat Ali (RA). So the fourt Caliph of Islam also murdered in the hands of an extremist Muslim.

Then Hazrat Ameer Maawia took over the Khilafat and founded the Ommayad regime of Khilafat. Remember that he had fought war against Hazrat Ali (RA) with the demand of handing over killers of Hazrat Usman (RA). It was so because Hazrat Usman (RA) also belonged to Ommayad tribe.

Anyway, later Ommayad ruler Yazeed killed Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) and others in the famous war of Karbala. In this way Hazrat Imam Hussain and his pious family members also murdered in the hands of Muslims i.e. Ommayad rulers.

Hijaj Bin Yousaf was the Governer of Iraq under the regime of Ommayad rulers. He is famous for his cruelties against his own Muslim population. He had killed hundereds of thousands of his own Muslim people.

So I think Gen. Musharraf is not doing as much bad as did those early extremist Muslims like Khawarjities and some Ommayad rulers. Which level of law and order situation you are trying to find under the rule of General Musharraf, is not possible to be found in a real world. So please come to real world and try to think about the positive aspects of our present situation. Historical facts suggest that Muslims themselves have killed many of their own prominent leaders. Might be Musharraf be able to stand against external forces like USA etc. provided he gets some relaxation from the internal threats.

There is internal peace in USA just because they are having control over major Economic resources of world and so their people are satisfied. They have managed to get this control due to their superior technology. What Muslims should do? Instead of uselessly opposing their rulers, Muslims should do efforts for the adoptation and invention of new and better technology. Values of Muslim culture are far better than those of Western culture. Extremist Muslims are just destroying the image of Islam in the eyes of whole world. But Musharraf is doing good efforts because he is trying to improve the image of Islam. The true values of peaceful Islam would definitely defeat the inferior values of contemporary western world. So this is the time to promote the true values of Islam i.e. the way of Hazrat Usman (RA), Hazrat Ali (RA), Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) etc. instead of false extremist values of early extremist Muslims like Khawarjities and some Ommayad rulers etc. Try to think over these issues.

Thanks!

Respected Nour, i absolutely agree with you and after reading your post it seems to me that you have given sufficient thought to your ideas and question but unfortunately your points were not answered in that way, which was desired.

Quote from Respected Khurram,

[QUOTE]Extremist Muslims are just destroying the image of Islam in the eyes of whole world. But Musharraf is doing good efforts because [B]he is trying to improve the image of Islam.[/B] [/QUOTE]

Dear brother, you have lost your dress, script, literature, language and eastern moral and religious values. Is it the soft and progressive image of Islam? we are merely duplicating the enlightened moderation of so called progressive Turkey.

One of my Indian's friends said, " i don't see any dissimilarity between Pakistani and Indian culture. Since pakistan was carved out as an islamic ideological state but neither there is any Islamic Ideology and nor has any outlook of islam" .

But it is very melancholic that we still fall in list of Top Failed States.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm[/url]

Kind Regards,

[I]AssalamOalikum,

Khurram Bhai Jan, you seem to be quite mature in your discussion. I am just diverting the discussion is some other dimension of leadership.

Mr.Ghandi ones beautifully stated,

"Leadership is the capability of translation or conversion of your vision into reality".

Now, recall the all perspectives of Quaid's vision and visualize that how far it has taken a shape of reality ?

By quoting Mr.Ghandi, please don't assume me as pro-indian but i look at this world very unbiasedly and we should, of course, if we want to excel in this ever challanging world because "ostrich approach" can no longer help us in standing in the line of civilized and developed countries.

Looking forward to your valuable thoughts,

Kind Regards,
Your's Brother[/I]

@ Khyber

Wa-alakum-Salam brother,

It is a fact that Quaid-e-Azam really did not find enough time during and after independence struggle to convey his detailed vision to Pakistanis. He died just one year after independence. Now it is only the fragments of his various speeches that are helpful in determining the vision of Quaid. There are differences in opinions among various writers of Pakistan's history, about Quaid's vision. Somethings we can say with certainty like Quaid was against the division of society in the name of religion or other reasons like ligual or provincialism etc. He had envisioned Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims so that Muslims may peacefully follow their religion and preserve and promote their culture. He had given surety of all the minority rights in the lands of Pakistan.

Our early leaders tried to eliminate the provincialism from West Pakistan more due to selfish reasons of politically equating West Paistan with relatively more populous East Pakistan, and less due to as per the injuctions of Quaid, by uniting all the four provinces of West Pakistan in the form of 'one unit'. This idea however flopped as people of different provinces happened to have stong ties with their regional provincial cultures and they could not be ready to leave their regional cultures. Similarly language problem also created many controversies. I have discussed these issues[URL="http://khuram.wordpress.com/2006/08/19/identity-crises-of-pakistan/"]in this link.[/URL]

As regards minority issue; the early 1953 violations in Punjab were aimed at a minority sect of Muslims. The 1956 constitution then compulsorily required head of state to be Muslim. An Indian Muslim writer Dr. Abid Hussain has the complaint that this article of Pakistani constitution has created many problems for those Muslims who live in India as extremist Hindus of India now would justify their discrimination against Indian Muslims by referring to this discriminating article of Pakistan Constitution.

In addition Pakistan also have failed in promoting its image of a peaceful Nation.

Quaid-e-Azam had formed his vision about future of Pakistan on the basis of his study of undivided India and he could not find time to look into the depths of the composition and structure of sub-cultures of Pakistan. Nehru, on the other hand, had the clear vision of implementing Soicialistic philosophy of Marx in the divided India. He had starting taking steps towards the implementation of that ideology right after the division of India by abolishing the land ownership from the country. Secondly he had found the time of abour 17 years after independence, of looking after the affairs of government of India. In this way he successfully had conveyed his detailed vision to the future leaders of India.

For Pakistan, now there is need to re-establish our vision as to our future. I am supporter of Musharraf because he is also a visionary leader. At first instance, he had come up with a clear vision in the form of his seven points agenda. Secondly he is trying to establish our vision of becoming moderate and peaceful society.

And Gandhi opinion would become more clear to me with some modifications. I think that 'translation' or 'conversion' of a given vision into reality is the function of an Administrator or 'Manager'.

The role or function of 'leader' would be to 'create' that vision.

Secondly I do not believe in any fixed vision. Changing world scenario would create the need of creating new suitable vision.

Anyways,,, Thanks!

Did Musharaf come to power by our consent
 

Dear Fellows!
To me the question that whether we need Musharaf or not has two dimensions.
Ideally speaking, we do not need people like Musharaf, who come to power by using the state's authority and violating and manupulating the constitution for the sake of extending their regime's time period . Rather we should have a leadership which has its roots in the general populace and works for the betterment and uplift of the public's living standard and improvement in the quality of our civilization.
Realistically speaking, having an eye on the on ground realities, I believe that Musharaf has been successfull in providing good governance as compared to the Nawaz and Banazir.
Although Musharaf has not been all that bad, but he has managed things in the same way as traditional predecessors of the Quaid-e-Azam have done.
What we really need is a true leader who should take the state from where the Quaid left to where the Quaid wanted it to be.
Moreover, what we badly need is the involvement of KHAMOSH AKSARIAT in practical politics. Nothing can change till we actually try to change it!

@ Khyber

[quote]Dear brother, you have lost your dress, script, literature, language and eastern moral and religious values. Is it the soft and progressive image of Islam? we are merely duplicating the enlightened moderation of so called progressive Turkey.

One of my Indian's friends said, " i don't see any dissimilarity between Pakistani and Indian culture. Since pakistan was carved out as an islamic ideological state but neither there is any Islamic Ideology and nor has any outlook of islam" .
[/quote]

Actually I do not fully agree with Musharraf's vision or idea of 'Moderate Islam'... I have explained my opinions over this issue in [URL="http://khuram.wordpress.com/2006/08/19/enlightened-moderation/"]this link.[/URL]

Here I have criticized the concept of 'Moderate' Islam and instead of it, have emphasized the need of 'Progressive' Islam.

Thanks!

[QUOTE=saim]salam! musharaf is not a bad choice coz we r not having any other genius man like him coz he kn0ows very well how 2 psychologically manipulate d others like bush n manmohan singh in havana that mr singh agreed 2 to restart peace process n even bush has praised him as a great leader but there r some weaknesses him as well he is a liar infact in some cases coz he promised 2 shed his uniform so many times but he has never done this but at d end i wana say that no 1 is perfect in this world.nothing is either good or bad but thinkings make it so but i agreee that musharaf is a hobson's choice coz at present moment we r not having any other smart man like to run d business of this state that is facing very hard challenges afs far a his book is concerned he is presenting d people of our own country in a bad manner this not agood practise it will effect our image in abroad that is already very bad altough he is narrating true events as d event of supreme court in 1997 but i think it is not a good practise to revear our own secrets 2 d others.[/QUOTE]

Wsalam

Musharaf is not a that bad choice in a sense. But if he is writing this sort of book, he must have some rationales behind that. He is not just leaping in the dark.

Dont judge people by what others say about him, but what opinion u make about them by ur best judgments.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]AssalamOalikum,

Khurram Bhai Jan, you seem to be quite mature in your discussion. I am just diverting the discussion is some other dimension of leadership.

Mr.Ghandi ones beautifully stated,

[B]"Leadership is the capability of translation or conversion of your vision into reality".[/B]

Now, recall the all perspectives of Quaid's vision and visualize that how far it has taken a shape of reality ?

By quoting Mr.Ghandi, please don't assume me as pro-indian but i look at this world very unbiasedly and we should, of course, if we want to excel in this ever challanging world because "ostrich approach" can no longer help us in standing in the line of civilized and developed countries.

Looking forward to your valuable thoughts,

Kind Regards,
Your's Brother[/QUOTE]

Wsalam

I will really appreciate if u dont divert our attention from the main topic of the thread, [B]Do we need Musharaf or not ??? [/B] By quoting the sentence, u may discuss the leadership experties of Musharaf but it would be better to be confined to the topic.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]Respected Nour, i absolutely agree with you and after reading your post it seems to me that you have given sufficient thought to your ideas and question but unfortunately your points were not answered in that way, which was desired.

Quote from Respected Khurram,



Dear brother, you have lost your dress, script, literature, language and eastern moral and religious values. Is it the soft and progressive image of Islam? we are merely duplicating the enlightened moderation of so called progressive Turkey.

One of my Indian's friends said, " i don't see any dissimilarity between Pakistani and Indian culture. Since pakistan was carved out as an islamic ideological state but neither there is any Islamic Ideology and nor has any outlook of islam" .[/QUOTE]

Pakistan came into being on the basis of Two nation theory, ur friend need to realize this fact. Indian culture adopted a lot many things frm Islamic one but Islamic culture is a specific one and cant be mixed wid any other one. yeah it may adopt good things coz Islam allows positive changes but negative changes of Indian culture are not allowed to be adopted at all.

I can elucidate it wid justifications but i would like to avoid off-topic discussion.

[QUOTE=Khyber]But it is very melancholic that we still fall in list of Top Failed States.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm[/url]

Kind Regards,[/QUOTE]

Well Musharaf alone is not involved in annihiliating Pakistan. There are many other factors which played a crucial role in making Pakistan a failed state. Musharaf, at times tried to ameliorate it and he did it. But he failed to make Pakistan a developed state coz of a lot many hurdles which exist in Pakistan since long.

We cant go back to change the past, but we can save our future by correcting our present in an appropriate manner.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khuram]@ Khyber

Wa-alakum-Salam brother,

It is a fact that Quaid-e-Azam really did not find enough time during and after independence struggle to convey his detailed vision to Pakistanis. He died just one year after independence. Now it is only the fragments of his various speeches that are helpful in determining the vision of Quaid. There are differences in opinions among various writers of Pakistan's history, about Quaid's vision. Somethings we can say with certainty like Quaid was against the division of society in the name of religion or other reasons like ligual or provincialism etc. He had envisioned Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims so that Muslims may peacefully follow their religion and preserve and promote their culture. He had given surety of all the minority rights in the lands of Pakistan.

Our early leaders tried to eliminate the provincialism from West Pakistan more due to selfish reasons of politically equating West Paistan with relatively more populous East Pakistan, and less due to as per the injuctions of Quaid, by uniting all the four provinces of West Pakistan in the form of 'one unit'. This idea however flopped as people of different provinces happened to have stong ties with their regional provincial cultures and they could not be ready to leave their regional cultures. Similarly language problem also created many controversies. I have discussed these issues[URL="http://khuram.wordpress.com/2006/08/19/identity-crises-of-pakistan/"]in this link.[/URL]

As regards minority issue; the early 1953 violations in Punjab were aimed at a minority sect of Muslims. The 1956 constitution then compulsorily required head of state to be Muslim. An Indian Muslim writer Dr. Abid Hussain has the complaint that this article of Pakistani constitution has created many problems for those Muslims who live in India as extremist Hindus of India now would justify their discrimination against Indian Muslims by referring to this discriminating article of Pakistan Constitution.

In addition Pakistan also have failed in promoting its image of a peaceful Nation.

Quaid-e-Azam had formed his vision about future of Pakistan on the basis of his study of undivided India and he could not find time to look into the depths of the composition and structure of sub-cultures of Pakistan. Nehru, on the other hand, had the clear vision of implementing Soicialistic philosophy of Marx in the divided India. He had starting taking steps towards the implementation of that ideology right after the division of India by abolishing the land ownership from the country. Secondly he had found the time of abour 17 years after independence, of looking after the affairs of government of India. In this way he successfully had conveyed his detailed vision to the future leaders of India.

For Pakistan, now there is need to re-establish our vision as to our future. I am supporter of Musharraf because he is also a visionary leader. At first instance, he had come up with a clear vision in the form of his seven points agenda. Secondly he is trying to establish our vision of becoming moderate and peaceful society.

And Gandhi opinion would become more clear to me with some modifications. I think that 'translation' or 'conversion' of a given vision into reality is the function of an Administrator or 'Manager'.

The role or function of 'leader' would be to 'create' that vision.

Secondly I do not believe in any fixed vision. Changing world scenario would create the need of creating new suitable vision.

Anyways,,, Thanks![/QUOTE]

I agree wid u. Very nice elucidation of the topic but please avoid off-topic discussion.

[QUOTE=Shabab Khan]Dear Fellows!
To me the question that whether we need Musharaf or not has two dimensions.
Ideally speaking, we do not need people like Musharaf, who come to power by using the state's authority and violating and manupulating the constitution for the sake of extending their regime's time period . Rather we should have a leadership which has its roots in the general populace and works for the betterment and uplift of the public's living standard and improvement in the quality of our civilization.
Realistically speaking, having an eye on the on ground realities, I believe that Musharaf has been successfull in providing good governance as compared to the Nawaz and Banazir.
Although Musharaf has not been all that bad, but he has managed things in the same way as traditional predecessors of the Quaid-e-Azam have done.
What we really need is a true leader who should take the state from where the Quaid left to where the Quaid wanted it to be.
Moreover, what we badly need is the involvement of KHAMOSH AKSARIAT in practical politics. Nothing can change till we actually try to change it![/QUOTE]

Well u are right, we need him realistically but not ideally. someitmes, i believe hat we are still behaving like an infant state. We are standing on the place where we were in 1947. Albeit development has taken place but what sort of benefit it is paying us ??? It is invisible in a sense.

We are in dire need of a miracle to change the things to have a best but secure future for Pakistan.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khuram]@ Khyber



Actually I do not fully agree with Musharraf's vision or idea of 'Moderate Islam'... I have explained my opinions over this issue in [URL="http://khuram.wordpress.com/2006/08/19/enlightened-moderation/"]this link.[/URL]

Here I have criticized the concept of 'Moderate' Islam and instead of it, have emphasized the need of 'Progressive' Islam.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

I admit that Musharaf is doing well for the sake of moderate Islamism. But my very question is about Hudood ordinance. What would u like to add if somebody considers [B]Musharaf and Islam in the light of Hudood ordinance???[/B]

Regards

I think, Pakistan would have been in the same conditions post 9/11 as it's today wether under the leadership of Musharaf or any other leader. I think for the sake of democracy and positive image of Pakistan, Pakistan would be better off without Musharaf under the leadership of some democratically elected president.