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  #21  
Old Saturday, September 29, 2012
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I think the religious extremism is not influence on A Country Economy. But unfortunately in Pakistan their are Some Lobbies which use the name of religion for destroying the public property. for Example in if We see in current Scenario the Karachi Satiation so I think we will be reach the answer.!!!
You are correct, religious extremism does not influence country's economy, instead country's economy fuels religious extremism . No welfare state can work without an economy that can support needs of diversity. Infact no state organization can work without an organized economy that meets requirements of the people. Even Islam teaches the same thing ('bhook insan ke hawaas pe parda daal deti hai' )
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  #22  
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Now the choice is yours, whether you want to live in a Scandinavian country, USSR, Nazi Germany, or Saudi Arabia, they all can't be one .
It is worth mention that both fascism and communism failed, but secular welfare and religious states are still there. Maybe there will be a conflict between them in near future.
Why is it necessary to choose among these? We can have a better choice if we succeed in establishing a welfare state that consists of bright features of all of them.
Rule of Law form Fascism
Morality form religious states
individual integrity from secular states
social benefits from Scandinavian structures
I know its hard to realize but at least I can dream for an Ideal Welfare state like Plato.
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  #23  
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Rule of Law form Fascism
Rule of Law is mandatory for all, rule of law shouldn't be confused with rule of a particular ideology and set of beliefs as in fascism . Don't mix up law with moral behavior of people .
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  #24  
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Rule of Law is mandatory for all, rule of law shouldn't be confused with rule of a particular ideology and set of beliefs as in fascism . Don't mix up law with moral behavior of people .
Should I put it as Method of Establishing rule of Law.
As you said in your previous post, morality differs from person to person, so, its not at all confusing.
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  #25  
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Should I put it as Method of Establishing rule of Law.
As you said in your previous post, morality differs from person to person, so, its not at all confusing.
I think we have confused a bit too much the concept of Welfare State with that of secular democratic ways of establishing a welfare state . If you take welfare state in general terms than the ultimate goal of any ideology is to establish social justice in the society and eventually form a welfare state. The way secular democracies do it is they don't enforce any particular code of moral and social values on the whole society; e.g. Christian code of values or Islamic code of values or English code of values etc. Instead they recognize diversity and vest the power of legislation in bodies supposedly 'people's representative legislatures'. Now when you have a people's representative legislature, it is bound to make sure that no particular system of values will take over and everyone will have a say in lawmaking, because a big population of people will always hold variety of beliefs and will follow variety of ideologies, same will be the composition of the legislature. This is the secular democratic way of doing things. Rule of Law is essential for any state, if the state is fascist than the difference is only that law is dictated by the leader recognized by the state, and if the state is religious the law, or general theme of what laws should look like, is defined by divine authority, Allah (SWT) . Moral values and Law are two different things. Different people will believe in different set of moral values, but law will always be one.

And one more thing, us Pakistanis are primitive people belonging to variety of cultures still struggling to civilize so we don't have any law . So don't imagine Pakistani society when making any comparison .
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I think you guys are going a little off-tract here. In my humble opinion, in a welfare state, a person must have justice (the most important), equality and basic facilities. Furthermore, the protection of his life and property should be guaranteed.

And these things aren't really possible where religion (or an autocratic form of government) becomes involved, because no matter what you do, all religions discriminate against non-believers. Saudi Arabia for example provides excellent facilities to its citizens, but a Christian will always be inferior to an Muslim in Saudi Arabia (provided the Muslim is an Arab or the Christian is non white; otherwise white skin trumps all ). In the same way, a average citizen of will always remain beneath a member of the Royal Family.

I'm going off topic now, but things like prostitution, drugs, teenage pregnancies etc don't really matter in the big scheme of things. Morals and ethics are not all about wearing the burka, you know. In my opinion, a regular drinker who helps a starving child is a hundred times more ethical than the holier-than-thou Imam in the neighborhood mosque.
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Cocept of welfare state was firstly given and practicaly shown by Islma. All the key features of a welfare are given in Islamic socio-political system whlile economic system of Islam is on the back of the structure.

All the developed countries of on the globe which are on the view that they are welfare state borrowed their system from islam but what they are missing is moral values which are only ensure in Islam.

As for as Economic system is concern, Only islamic economic system assure
equality realise human need. while the Capitalism is the closest to the Islamic
Economic system.whlile Communism is totally opposit to human nautre.

So we should b cleared without having any ambiguity in our minds that Welfare state can only be establish by following rules and regulations laid down by Allah which are totally according to human nature.
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but what they are missing is moral values which are only ensure in Islam.
What morals? There is more justice in France than in Saudi Arabia and more equality in the United States than there is in Saudi Arabia. The fact is that Muslim states like Saudi Arabia HAVE NO MORALS at all. You will find Muslims there, but not Islam because without justice and equality, there can be no Islam.
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  #29  
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What morals? There is more justice in France than in Saudi Arabia and more equality in the United States than there is in Saudi Arabia.
French justice system determines the moral value of a conduct through consequentialism and utilitarianism and mostly provides restorative justice, whereas Saudi follows a fix moral code as per Salafist interpretations of Islamic teachings and mostly provides retributive justice also taught by Islam; so there is no comparison between French and Saudi justice systems . Saudi Arabian society is not socially or economically evolved to the level of French society. Also although it happens to be that Saudi Arabia is the birthplace land of Islam and still holds the holiest sites, Saudi Arabian government is a form of totalitarian dynastic kingdom which is not the model of Islamic state. The model of Islamic state is the one that Holy Prophet (SAW) first established in Yathrib (Madina) viz the constitution of Medina. This constitution was the first ever social contract and that state was the first ever model of a secular state in human history. This constitution included non-muslims in the ummah and the articles regarding non-muslims in that constitution were:
  1. The security of God is equal for all groups,
  2. Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
  3. Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.
  4. Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.

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without justice and equality, there can be no Islam.
Totally agreed. Period.
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A Welfare State does not exist in any part of the world, we just have some closest models still having flaws. what I want is to determine somehow a sketch of Welfare state for ourselves.
It is a reality that how much secular we intend to be Moral Values does play an important part in our lives. Even in Europe a prostitute or a person with abusive language is not liked. Even though He is given equal rights no matter what his character is. And thing is appreciable although there must be some ways to bring him to self-welfare.
I do not want a state religion for my welfare state I just need a set of moral values which is acceptable to all.
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