as so for democracy is concerned it will take time to restore, we are moving towards it. democratic govt completes its term, it was the first step towards democracy, every process has stages as, introductory stage, maturity , and decline, so still we are moving in introductory stage in which democracy complete its term, agreed democracy was for away in 5 years term as i have elaborated early that we are still on introductory stage. how a process works completely on its introductory stage ? let it move towards maturity with the passage of time it will work. next move of democracy is election hope we and our leader will play our role with honesty. it seems impossible to get 100% result in up coming election but we got 25 or 50% in up coming election. then it will be a good move towards democracy. after an other 5 years our views on democracy may change ............[

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waqar Abro I must conclude, on the condition that you would not be personal , with the words of Jhon Keneddy " Do not ask what your country has done for you ask what you have done for your country". T.c Regards,

Nahh there is nothing to be personal about , we need to learn and exchange ideas, not get personal all the times, I am much more democrat in that regard .

All I can do for my poor and overpopulated country is suicide to free some of its resources .

All people can never be educated, I have tried enough, they can only be led to a direction. And democracy creates so many directions in society that ultimately people are led into confusion and disarray.

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

You are assuming that human nature is irrational, illogical and can only be tamed by power. Hobbesian thaory had died long ago. The success of Lockean theory lies in the fact that human nature is not bleak. The differnce lies in perception. Be positive man.

so if we give this govt. 5 more years then i think due to their corruption level may be we will be standing in the line of the countries full of terrorism, lack of basic necessities,hyper inflation, unemployment etc.... i think military interventions have not given such a bad Pakistan as this DEMOCRATIC govt. has given us after 5 yrs.....

Who asked you to re-elect them? Tested people should not be given any chance.
You can elect person of your choice. Mobilize people and ask them to give vote to deserving people rather than industrialists cum politicians.

Will you justify your stance that dictatorship was better than democracy?
Discuss all dictator regimes and i will defend all democratic governments , you will feel the difference.

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You are an eagle, flight is your vocation:
You have other skies stretching out before you.

well as far as i can recall my memories about few military regimes i can easily conclude that karachi was one as worse as it is today...daily 10 -12 innocent people lose their life...but if u go back not more than just 5 yrs you will surely realize that the commodity prices, situation of law and order, petroleum prices, amount of taxes....all have a significant change than the democratic regime...i can not recall any good event of this govt. despite some of the heartache stories....

Why don't you begin from Ayub regime to Musharraf?

Let me draw a precise conclusion of dictatorial regimes.

Air Marshal Asghar Khan writes in his book that we have learnt nothing from history.
here goes the performance;

1. Downfall of Dacca,
2. creation of ethno based political parties,
3. false propagation of Islam,
4. Terrorism,
5. Extremism,
6. Focus on border security instead of human security,
7. Inter and intra political conflicts and conspiracies,
8. promotion of armament rather than education,
9. Controlled Media and designed freedom of speech
10. Rise of Nationalism
11. Baluchistan Saga
12. Selective handling
13. Pathetic foreign policy
14. War on Terrorism
15. Mullahism and Sectarianism
16. Influence in civil service through 8th amendment
17. 58-2-B and its grave repercussions
18. Target killings
19. Breakdown of social and political harmony
20. Intellectual, social, political, and economical bankruptcy.

There is a big list of repercussions of dictatorial regimes. Pathetic policies of Zia still affects Pakistan to larger extent. I am not anti-Army. I may be more patriotic than anyone else but role of army is to secure borders not to emerge as a political stakeholder.



Your posted list of democracy repercussions do not appear slightly better than this one?

It is for the first time in history of Pakistan that rule of law prevails in the country. People are made accountable irrespective of their power and authority. Did we notice it in previous governments? Where is law of necessity? Extra-constitutional deviators are booked and held responsible of their actions. Don't you count it a progress? Would not you consider it a success of democracy that 3 state pillars - Army, Judiciary and Media- have started working within the parameters of their domain? There is only executive that does not work properly. Otherwise, all institutions are working efficiently and effectively.

It is the greatness of General Kayani that democracy flourished in the country. He realized that Pakistan can never be run by a dictator for any longer. Status quo mindset is changing. We are heading towards success and progress.



I will conclude with the worlds of Chief justice; though the heavens fall, justice will prevail.

Regards,

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You are an eagle, flight is your vocation:
You have other skies stretching out before you.

well i m not anti-democratic, but i would say don't think that the democratic rulers of this country have criminal records including our honorable president...Corrupt politicians and tax evasion is rampant....i will now conclude it...voting right is with us....we have a fair knowledge of our present govt...so one should use his/her right wisely....don't let someone who could ruin this country further more....

Hobbesian theory never died , it always remained present in one part of the world or another and Lockesian theory only survived under fear of Hobbesians, however it is only recently that apparently Hobbesians have been overwhelmed , this is the difference of perception. You believe theory of power and authority is gone for good while I believe it will resurrect soon. Human beings, despite making much advancement via Science,still do not understand many things and greatest number of them still remain ignorant and irrational vying for mercy, justice and care of a powerful being

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The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

achievements of democracy: women empowerment, maximum autonomy of provinces by the passage of 18TH Amendment, legislation on Necta( national counter terrorism authority, Fair Trial Bill and many others. These were the constitutional achievements of the former government.
political achievements: mature political parties, anti establishment in nature( PML- N and PTI have learned the lessons), youth participation in politics, reconciliation with India, handing over of Gwader Port to China( Mushrraf regime had no courage to do that as it was too timed to angry America. Even the army is not happy with this.
in addition to this, there are countless achievements of the democracy. And it is hoped that with consistent democracy, Pakistan will come out of present vortex of terrorism.
As for as hobbsonian approach is concerned, it is akin to dictatorship. A dictator always thinks that he is right , whereas others are wrong as the others are illiterate, ignorant etc.... He wields power in his hands to strengthen himself. as lord action said " power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.........so can be said about dictator. First he is the most clean person, but eventually he becomes the most corrupt.So, Hobson's line of thinking is wrong........