AoA
With due respect and prior apology, I would like to type some lines. I had seen this thread time and again and was trying to avoid, but perhaps I was supposed to take hours out of my precious time to type... these lines do not intend to hurt feelings of anybody, and also do not represent any specific fiqah /school of jurisprudence. I am nobody in jurisprudence so have mentioned sources for these lines and anybody interested can read them.
1) my dear fellows, we as a nation and as humans have many problems and defects, one of the problem is we jump at the conclusion without checking to the background history, the context and other aspects of things. This may moreorless relate to an anecdote, 'once a guy was very reactive without getting the point, he used to speak out his own version and his mother was very worried for this. She talked to a scholar (an old mullah), he said sent him to me. So when the guy reached to him, the scholar or mullah said hey young boy where is your ear, oh look that crow has taken it and flying away, go and fetch it before crow disappear. The guy turned and rushed towards the side pointed by mullah sb. All people around burst into laughter and then boy realized his ear is still at its place! So be patient to look into the things before issuing own version of fatwahs!
2) Another problem with us that we do have lot of time to discuss religion, national security, bad governance and political problems. These things are often considered favorite punching bags and everybody who speaks loud and clear against religion fundamentals/fanatics/idiots mullah/old traditions etc is considered to be a liberal, outspoken and a person having conscious. Mullah is bad, he is idiot, he craves for sex, illiterate, cannot think out of box, greeds for money etc. But why is a Mullah like that! If we take examples from current era, in majority of cases, a child who is weak in studies, failure for everything, his parents are poor and cannot send him to big schools or universities etc is sent to become a mullah or an imam of masjid. then what does this mullah do; he leads prayers, give dars to children, lead funeral, give sermons at juma and eid milad un nabi s.a.w, solemnize nikah etc etc and in return he gets a meager amount to fulfill his stomach and raise his family. A mullah who is a good orator get good places and if he vocal against other fiqah is also considered good, and if issues tawez and give advice on religion points then he is also good and successful... Then there are some mullah like Sherani sb, Sami-ul-Haq sb, Fazlur rehman sb, Sajid Naqvi sb etc who get hold of political parties and are considered as successful and simultaneously they represent another form of mullahs for general public. Then when we see some specific followers of madaris, we say oh Ahle Hadees people came, oh Deobandi came, oh green caps/green parrots came etc etc... I am a citizen of this country and often listen these things so developed such feeling as well, once I came across some portion of write up by Qudrat Ullah Shahab perhaps in Shahab Nama (to say another thing, he is considered a person of baba group where many critics term it another brand of polished mullah like Ashfaq Ahmed etc), Q.U Shahab sb wrote about mullah, that it is because of that mullah, islam is keeping up... Because of them it has reached into many parts of world and it is still kept in some form in many other parts. He do not care for cold weather, rain, clothes, money but he goes to ask people for namaz, for Fallah /success. Allah says about a party who invite for good thing and stops from bad and some of the mullahs (in any brand of Islamic fiqah) are following it. To be specific Q.U Shahab sb was referring to a distance place in Orrissa in his early career of civil service when he found this aspect of Mullah!!
I think I am taking much time of my friends and boring them, but to be honest, from last six hours I remained thinking on this topic before mustering courage and energy to write anything on it and from last three hours I am composing, now you people also endure me
.. So what things I got from above para is, first Mullah is not every time bad, second Mullahs are illogical and illiterate and insane because majority of brilliant minds do not want to become a mullah or maulvi (most of the times any body having beard is also considered to be a mullah and either he is good or bad, is considered to be bad
), thirdly, we should not generalize mullahs of same mindset if we have seen some specific type of mullahs..
3) Now something about this Hadood Law, this was promulgated in 1979 by General Zia ul Haq sb. It received lot of controversies and it was amended through Women Protection Act of 2006. There remained issues on its applicability and basic principles like four witnesses for rape etc. There might had been some flaws in that law, but it does not mean that islam is like that or it is fully in consonance to the Quran and Islamic laws which were revealed in early years of Hijrah... Some of its clauses were taken as aggressive and oppressive and as per Mufti Taqi Usmani in many times there has not been truths behind allegations and people follow the things as they hear without going into the details (there are many learned Islamic fellows in forum, they can see his words at
http://www.darsequran.com/articles/u...udood-taqi.php , to my dismay and may be for dismay of some other nice fellows, Taqi Usmani sb is also a mullah and in this article he has also referred to circumstantial evidence including DNA thing as a good evidence for proving crime of rape). Actually there were two distinct things of zina, one is adultery /fornification and other is rape. one with the will of both parties and the other aggression. Our Hadood Ordinance is probably concentrating on the first part, (many moderates and liberals considered it a shot on the rights of women hence taken it an offense) and extract punishment from surah Nur, while in many Islamic countries second thing/rape is considered under Hirābah /disorder in land and give punishments in the light of surah al-Ma'ida (ayat 33–34). Whatever the case may be, the four witness thing was actually in Surah Nur ayat 2 to 5. Those ayats was revealed in the context of tuhmat on Hazrat Ayesha r.a. and the other party was asked to present four witness, but they were able to present three. Anyhow, that is out of context of this discussion and am not having more time for this... Anybody interested for the basis of hadd and rape punishments and accusations can read the links pasted at the end. ....
For hiraba, many Islamic legal scholars interpreted rape as a crime in the category of Hiraba, which was taken as: ‘a single person or group of people causing public disruption, killing, forcibly taking property or money, attacking or raping women (hatk al ‘arad), killing cattle, or disrupting agriculture.’ Ibn Hazm, Al-Dasuqi, Ibn ‘Arabi etc give sentences and punishments considering rape hiraba. Details are in links given below.
4) As regards the actual reason for this discussion, Council of Islamic Ideology gave some of its version, and it has clearly written in a part of that statement ;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayesha Chemist
“It cannot be treated as main evidence but it certainly is a great help in investigations,” said Allama Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi, a member of CII present at the meeting chaired by Senator Maulana Muhammad Khan Sherani.
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One Mullah, Allama Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi sb is saying that it is certainly a great help in investigation! mean the chapter is not closed, they have said that it will help in getting to the culprit. There may be a need for changing the law from the Parliament or there may be some provisions inside that law to cover it. As quoted above a reference from Taqi Usmani sb, perhaps that Mullah sb is from the makers of that law, he might had been involved in discussions by some body. ... It is written in another article by Taqi Usmani sb, 'But at the same time clause 10(3) was included to award the taazeeri punishment which did not have the condition of four witnesses. Instead the crime could be proven through one witness, medical examination and chemical analysis report. Consequently most of the rape criminals were awarded punishment as per this clause.' Link is given under.
Its there work to do, and we cannot be sure that this is the only place where this sacred law and mullahs are being discussed, they might have been having their tiny minds to think something and they may be doing it, might be slowly but there would be something... If its going to be discussed here, then it does not mean that mullahs or somebody else should be put to dogs. Respect may be a good thing in discussion... Quran is also saying something about it, "You who believe do not let one (set of) people make fun of another set. Do not defame one another. Do not insult by using nicknames. And do not backbite or speak ill of one another." (surah 49:11-12)
5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invincible
Munwar Hassan (JI Head) once said: "if a woman cannot produce four male witnesses present at the time of her rape, she be imprisoned based on Hudood Ordinance and Shariah Law. This, he claims is in the best interest of women who are raped so if she fails to produce the witnesses she ought to refrain from filing an FIR altogether.
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Dear fellow, if somebody is saying something, it does not mean it is Islamic, nor it mean that it is fatwah, nor it mean that will be implemented. Further, if anyone says that she was punished because of Qazaf (false accusation of rape) then Qazaf Ordinance, Clause no. 3, Exemption no. 2 clearly states that if someone approaches the legal authorities with a rape complaint, she cannot be punished in case she is unable to present 4 witnesses. No court of law can be in its right mind to award such a punishment.
6)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabahatbhutta
I think Billal Hassan is right. We should not go into lengthy debate as it is a sensitive issue. I just wish Muslims pay heed to IJTEHAD so that we come out of this fuss, created by hard-liners and ultra-modernists.
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Yes, its better to avoid such religious issues because half knowledge is too bad.
Yes, Ijtehad or there may be something already on the thing. And there are some conditions for doing Ijtehad and giving Fatwah, thanks God, no tom dick and harry can do it...
7) -a
Quote:
Originally Posted by imbindas
first of all we desperately need to get rid of CII (council of islamic ideology) and federal shriat court (FSC) . CII want to protect rapists and FSC had resisted every move to implement land reforms according to their so called shariah laws.
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Little patience my friend. Please do not jump on conclusions. CII issues are discussed above, as regards Federal Shariat Court and land reforms, there are more issues at the level of parliamentarians /fuedals then Shariat Court....
Quote:
Originally Posted by imbindas
Now lets talk about the Zina and its four eye witnesses. in Arab Jahiliya period before the inception of Islam the society of pagans were at the lowest ebb in morality. there were free mixing of opposite sex and sexual relations are rampant. it should be pointed out that there were no concept of rape, zina in islam means sex among the opposite sexes by their volition. and in that time frequently women were accused by their male partners of having sexual relations with other males or zina , for example if man wanted to get rid of his wife, he would accuse her of zina and then punish her in one way or another. this was really bad for the women of that time. we must bear in mind that Islamic zina laws were to protect women of arab society of being persecution in false cases, it was to protect her dignity from being baseless charges. thats why Allah in Quran ordered the condition of four witnesses. at that time there were no concept of RAPE, men and women were involved freely in sex. so this law was to protect the women from being persecution without a proof.
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b) It should be pointed out with kind regards that the apparent reason of the four witness in surah Nur was allegations on Hazrat Ayesha r.a. Further, it should also be pointed out with respect that there was concept of rape at that time as well, Hazrat Wa'il ibn Hujr r.a. narrates an incident when a woman was raped. Later, she identified and accused the man of raping her. People seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
Quote:
Originally Posted by imbindas
If Prophet were alive now, He would have get rid of these law asap. this is not a rocket science, its a matter of common sense if we have left with any.
Now many so called scholars, even on this form, will argue that how can we change the laws of Quran. let me elaborate please !
1- Punishment for stealing in Quran is to cut hands, why Prophet left one person ....did Prophet went against the law of Quran ....
2- Why Hazrat Umer disallowed the new muslims to have share in zakat ? Why He refuse to give share of bounty to new converts? Why Umer started Tarawh nimaz as it was never ordered by Prophet? why umer accepted women witness even two men were present as witness in one case? did hazrat Umer went against the law of Quran ?
3- why Prophet allowed women to retaliate against her husband who had slap her, later hazrat jibrael came and ordered Prophet to forbade women to do so, Prophet did so. why was that ? because at that time islam was in its early stages, it was a patriarchal society and such action could have provoked the men, it could had been a disaster for islam. it shows that even Prophet could not have challenged all jahiliyas customs for the reasons i explained.
4- Islam was not able to curb most of the Jahiliyas customs and traditions , the reason is simple , the non-materialistic culture takes time to change, it is impossible to change ideas and beliefs in a matter of few year or so. what Prophet did that he laid a general framework by exemplifying himself and left many matters for the believers to decide according to their own needs and time of their society. do remember that society is important. wearing shettle cock burqa is fine in fata but same burqa in lahore and islamabad would make no sense. well i don't want to divert my discussion towards "Purdah" in islam, will discuss it latter some other time. so the crux of the matter is that Prophet was aware of changing needs of society. that why he never imposed his understandings and interpretation of Holy text on believers.
5-let me ask CII mullahs, there are thousands of offenses and problems where the solution has not been provided in Quran , sunnah and even Ijma. how are they going to deal with it ? did they know any thing like "Ijtehad" which was himself initiated by the Holy Prophet approving the reply of Mouz bin jabal while appointing him the Governer.
6- these are the same Mullahs who declared TV, loudspeakers as Haram. now they are the one who are using these facilities more that anyone n this universe. now the Haram is Halal, but How?
the truth is that our Mullahs are cripple minded, they are still living in 3rd Hijri, they are dead intellectually. all they care about is Jannat, they sexual pleasures in Jannat with hoors, the wine, the milk, the beef, they Dont love Allah they fear Allah. those who don not love the creature of Allah can never love Allah. they are pleasure seekers, their lusty minds have little to ponder about.
When Hazrat Bayazid bustami was ascribe by Local mullah as heretic, the great sufi replied "O kitabi kerhay, tujhay kya pata ISHQ kya hota ha, tu sari umer jisko kitabon may dhondta rhta ha, wo meray Dil may rehta ha"
Regards.
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c) Who is this Prophet being referred by the way? I think it is said that there were more than one hundred thousand prophets sent on earth!... As per context , it seems to be about last Prophet AnHazrat Muhammad PBUH, if it is for him, then with due respect and kind regards, it should be noted that in Quran it is narrated that Allah and His angels says darood on Prophet PBUH so it will not be wastage of time or digits to link some darood i.e. PBUH/SAW with His PBUH name!!!!
d) I am nobody , not a scholar not a mullah, but I know one thing that nobody can change the laws of Quran. It is for all the times, however, interpretation can be done or changed, there are around five major fiqahs and interpretations of laws/jurisprudence.
e) the women witness (two women witness against one man witness) thing was perhaps inferred from the ayat 282 of surah bukarah and was not against Quran..
f) For this Hazrat Jibrael thing, it may be correct or incorrect, but Hazrat Jibrael was also a sort of messenger from Allah and he might not had ordered Prophet PBUH for anything.
g) You please leave that matter of Ijtehad, Ijma and Qayaas to them. Do not mix the concepts e.g. "Ijtehad" was not initiated by the Holy Prophet PBUH while approving the reply of Mouz bin jabal, it was Qayaas.
h) Mullahs may be cripple minded, there are many great scholars here, why they do not become Mullah to correct them. As regards living in 3rd Hijri thing, the are not living there... If somebody ask me to take my everything and give me a single minute in 3rd Hijri at Madina, by God, I will not wait for a single second to accept that offer...
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A request; since there are good scholars on islam, I will request them to give some time to these links
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Adulte...itted_in_Islam
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam
These are about information on Islam at wikiislam and just contain illogical and wrong interpretations and things. That will be service if they are corrected.
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Kindly regret if somebody has felt anything abusive or wrong.
Regards
Sources:
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles...e_in_islam.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirabah
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/41682
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...e_adultery.htm
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=12121
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic..._jurisprudence
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/arch...p/t-48040.html
http://www.darsequran.com/articles/u...udood-taqi.php
http://wathakker.info/english/flyers/view.php?id=489