Women does not need to give more witness other than DNA test. We use even these molvies get help from sugar test, whenever they want to check sugar why in checking sugar they do not use the four witnesses??? if they can not then why not this kinds of tests be used for rape cases??? if a innocent is getting justice from these tests then who are the Mullans who can reject it.

Where we are heading toward?? Already Justice is rare thing in these kinds of cases then what will the situation after this irrational decision???
Where we are heading toward??? if is dream to invent these types of tests by any Pakistan, now we are spared from getting help from these kinds of tests. All over the world this is authentic source of varification of culprit, but unfortunately we in Pakistan are still living in stone age.

And this is indeed sensitive issue but all sensitive issues should be open to discussion because our this tendency of not discussing issues have lead us to that day.

This act is condemnable and Sue Motto Should be taken by our beloved Chief Justice.

We condemn the openly whenever we saw Dr. Asfia Siddique but we are almost silent on wrong doings which are being committed by our own heros.

I understand religious discussion on sensitive issues is a no-go area in our society and falls outside the theme of this forum, but when there is a religious fundamentalists vs. liberal fascists debate, then an ordinary person is forced to think and question. Such issue wasn't raised here after an idle mood but because of the frequency of discussion appearing in-front of every current affairs student.

I agree with our friends that brushing such issues under the carpet will keep them controversial for ever; misconceptions will become more strong in a layman's mind and suspicions in a skeptic's.

So there is no need of being overly sentimental on the slightest mention of it as it shows lack of your confidence on religion's ability, rather take that as an opportunity to get complete knowledge and get the underlying wisdom.


On a serious note, a victim is not required to produce four witnesses rather the accuser is. also anything which helps to meet justice is admissible be it forensic science and if suspicions still, we have consensus in Islam. Plus not all ulemas have tried to reinforce this CII's verdict. I've posted a link here. Hope it'll be of some help. Good luck!!

http://www.irfi.org/articles/article...slim_women.htm

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Witness doesn't mean that those people should only be the witness that saw rape while it was happening, that by the way never happens, but to approve of the evidence as a witness i.e. in this case the DNA report and if four persons (technicians in this case) approve of this proof of the guiltiness of the convict then it also fulfils the decree. Hence the rapist can be given punishment and no other person would even think of committing a rape or otherwise this stalemate between the mullahs and the law would never end.
This really needs a serious thought on the behalf of government officials or else our society will get worse than western societies. May Allah help us all. Ameen

first of all we desperately need to get rid of CII (council of islamic ideology) and federal shriat court (FSC) . CII want to protect rapists and FSC had resisted every move to implement land reforms according to their so called shariah laws.

now what is shariat ? shariat mean a clear path, a path of truth, a path which is pure from ambiguity. who invented that word shariat ? Holy prophet, khulafa-e-rashdeen and all four great imams even respected shia imams like hazrat Imam jaffar sadiq never used used word as "shariat".

Islam is the most liberal religion of the world which is continuously in the state of transition since its inception. Holy prophet and all his great companions were most liberal in their interpretation. islamic law is not rigit, it is ever changing according to the needs of society.

Now lets talk about the Zina and its four eye witnesses. in Arab Jahiliya period before the inception of Islam the society of pagans were at the lowest ebb in morality. there were free mixing of opposite sex and sexual relations are rampant. it should be pointed out that there were no concept of rape, zina in islam means sex among the opposite sexes by their volition. and in that time frequently women were accused by their male partners of having sexual relations with other males or zina , for example if man wanted to get rid of his wife, he would accuse her of zina and then punish her in one way or another. this was really bad for the women of that time. we must bear in mind that Islamic zina laws were to protect women of arab society of being persecution in false cases, it was to protect her dignity from being baseless charges. thats why Allah in Quran ordered the condition of four witnesses. at that time there were no concept of RAPE, men and women were involved freely in sex. so this law was to protect the women from being persecution without a proof.

this was the whole concept of zina laws. now in present society, do these laws protect women ? the answer is absolutely NO. these laws protect the rapers and criminals who went unpunished in almost 99% cases. If Prophet were alive now, He would have get rid of these law asap. this is not a rocket science, its a matter of common sense if we have left with any.

Now many so called scholars, even on this form, will argue that how can we change the laws of Quran. let me elaborate please !

1- Punishment for stealing in Quran is to cut hands, why Prophet left one person unpunished when it was proved that he was involved in stealing ? did Prophet went against the law of Quran ?

2- Why Hazrat Umer disallowed the new muslims to have share in zakat ? Why He refuse to give share of bounty to new converts? Why Umer started Tarawh nimaz as it was never ordered by Prophet? why umer accepted women witness even two men were present as witness in one case? did hazrat Umer went against the law of Quran ?

3- why Prophet allowed women to retaliate against her husband who had slap her, later hazrat jibrael came and ordered Prophet to forbade women to do so, Prophet did so. why was that ? because at that time islam was in its early stages, it was a patriarchal society and such action could have provoked the men, it could had been a disaster for islam. it shows that even Prophet could not have challenged all jahiliyas customs for the reasons i explained.

4- Islam was not able to curb most of the Jahiliyas customs and traditions , the reason is simple , the non-materialistic culture takes time to change, it is impossible to change ideas and beliefs in a matter of few year or so. what Prophet did that he laid a general framework by exemplifying himself and left many matters for the believers to decide according to their own needs and time of their society. do remember that society is important. wearing shettle cock burqa is fine in fata but same burqa in lahore and islamabad would make no sense. well i don't want to divert my discussion towards "Purdah" in islam, will discuss it latter some other time. so the crux of the matter is that Prophet was aware of changing needs of society. that why he never imposed his understandings and interpretation of Holy text on believers.

5-let me ask CII mullahs, there are thousands of offenses and problems where the solution has not been provided in Quran , sunnah and even Ijma. how are they going to deal with it ? did they know any thing like "Ijtehad" which was himself initiated by the Holy Prophet approving the reply of Mouz bin jabal while appointing him the Governer.

6- these are the same Mullahs who declared TV, loudspeakers as Haram. now they are the one who are using these facilities more that anyone n this universe. now the Haram is Halal, but How?

the truth is that our Mullahs are cripple minded, they are still living in 3rd Hijri, they are dead intellectually. all they care about is Jannat, they sexual pleasures in Jannat with hoors, the wine, the milk, the beef, they Dont love Allah they fear Allah. those who don not love the creature of Allah can never love Allah. they are pleasure seekers, their lusty minds have little to ponder about.

When Hazrat Bayazid bustami was ascribe by Local mullah as heretic, the great sufi replied "O kitabi kerhay, tujhay kya pata ISHQ kya hota ha, tu sari umer jisko kitabon may dhondta rhta ha, wo meray Dil may rehta ha"
Regards.

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Forget safety.Live where you fear to live.Destroy your reputation.Be notorious

Never discourage any member of society to raise right against unnecessary and orthodox terminology adopted by many without looking at its essence.

I am surprised on your such aloofness and advising other to take side and avoid giving point of view which is against society.

Probably Mr Billah You have forgotten the Teachings of Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H) Who has categorically examined many of ASHABAS and His Followers, asking that TEACHINGS AND LESSONS OF RELIGION ARE MADE FOR SOCIETY THE SAME ARE SUBJECT TO SOCIETY WITH EMERGENCE OF NEW TRENDS AND SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE OF ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED AS PER NEED AND TIME IN SOCIETY" THE SAME SHOULD BE DONE ACCORDINGLY METHODS WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN OUR OWN SYSTEM"

Through IJTEHAD, JURISTIC ANALOGY" ETC

The rules which are in the books were right the same were as per period of that time period, now world has developed and changed its instincts and faces hence there is need of amendment in the prevailing laws, rules and acts which are said to be obsolete"

Its we being member of society and responsible spirit of state who have to MARK AND HIGH LIGHT THE SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE changes to be made and ADVICES TO BE SUGGESTED TO OUR LEGISLATURES BODIES.

I AM ASKING A SIMPLE QUESTION THAT IS THERE ANY CULPRIT WHO COULD HAVE BEEN CONVICTED ON THE BASIS OF WITNESSES TESTIMONY REACHING AT THE POINT AND ESSENTIAL DEGREE OF ITS BEING GENUINENESS , UNI TILL COURT COULD NOT BE SATISFIED BY TERMINOLOGY OF TAZQUTUL SHAHOOD, AS PER PROVISIONS OD QANOUNON-E-SHAHDAT ORDER"

Resultantly culprit go un punished and repeat the same heinous crime and offense against which the parameters are not to be proved.

therefore D.N.A Test testimony is the best way to ascertain the crime and criminal culprit and COURTS will be able to perform their true and genuine responsibility" otherwise calling names to the courts of state and judges is wrong and against the ethics because JUDGES are bound by rules and laws enacted in the books passed by the assemblies and courts respected by the decisions of the JUDGES but than when LAWS ARE UP TO DATE MY FRIENDS.

SO NEVER STOP OR SUPPRESS YOURS AS WELL AS OTHERS VOICE AGAINST WRONG THAT IS CAUSING IMBALANCE IN SOCIETY.


REGARDS TO ALL

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WE PROUD TO BE CUSTODIAN OF LAW AND STATE.

Sorry to say but 4 eye witness is ridiculous interpretation of Islamic Law. What if no eye witness, then women are deemed to suffer.
Moreover, if there are 4 eye witness, then these 4 are the prime suspect as they allowed such heinous crime to be committed.
Where is the senses of Logic. CII is just a politically cultivated organization to shape the course of Islamic culture and laws on the will of few. Decision of banning CII is absolutely justified.

The thread's discussion is indeed reflective of the way our society responds to an issue right off the bat assuming themselves an authority to declare their verdict as soon as possible.
Since its been trendy to criticize and reprimand Ulema in Pakistan so it is not much surprising to see it here as well.
Dear Members, before following the crowd blindly, have a look where it leads.

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"Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urma Waqar Since its been trendy to criticize and reprimand Ulema in Pakistan so it is not much surprising to see it here as well.

1. Ulemas are human beings, hence, they are prone to make mistakes. Aren't they?

2. Did you find any wisdom in their words? (DNA Statement)

3. Its unbecoming of them to give untenable verdicts without explaining them with context.

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When you try, you risk failure. When you don’t try, you ensure it.

This is the beginning of the end of so called mullahs. Pakistani society is in a state of transition, it has rebelled against the so called Zia laws which were imposed on us three decades ago. 4-5 years ago no one could have dared to criticize those self appointed doctors of faith , but now not only they are scolded , questioned , challenged but also they opinion is strongly disregarded. I watch daily so called muftis in talk shows, having arguments with bold pakistani movie actresses and TV stars, which makes me believe the logical arguments of bold actresses while Muftis sahib are just shooting in the dark, shouting helplessly, no one believes them.

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Forget safety.Live where you fear to live.Destroy your reputation.Be notorious

Hmm accept for a moment that they are human okay??? then why they do not forgive others mistakes?? why they issue fatwaz against innocent people without proof???

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For me it is enough that I am different from others.