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Zainab S Monday, March 14, 2016 12:36 AM

Ursula and I discuss criminology
 
[b]Note- In case you are not aware I asked her for guidance and she wanted it to be public so I am making a post here.
I intend on discussing criminology syllabus and issues that I encounter while preparing this subject because this is the first optional I am preparing on my own and she had the same optional.
Feel free to jump in. However please try to stick to the subject. [/b]

Hey Ursula,
I hope you are good.

I have started criminology preparation and I started from section 1.
I am studying the book called " Theoratical Criminology by George B. Vold, Thomas J. Bernard, Jeffrey B. Snipes" and I don't know whether you read it or not.
My issue with section 1 is that in its point 4 below,

[b]Crime and Criminality: Theoretical Perspectives[/b]
Early explanation of criminal behavior
Biological Theories; Psychological Theories; Sociological Theories.
 Social Disorganization theory
 Strain theory
 Social Control theory
 Learning theory
 Labeling Theory
 Islamic perspective on deviance and crime.

the theories in bullets are all sociological theories. Psychological theories and biological theories are up to us to find and there is no narrowing down for us.

So early explanation of criminal behavior, I believe refers to classical criminology, then positivist criminology and I also studied Durkheim and Anomie. I loved this one the most.
So for biological theories I read overview of physiognomy and phrenology; Lombroso's work and Gorings; Sheldon to Cortes; Intelligence and relation between IQ and delinquency; Racial components; The Bell Curve; twins and adoption studies; Autonomic Nervous System and environmentally induced biological components of behavior. Is this all or there is more?

For psychological theories I read overview of Sigmund Freud and his psychoanalysis, personality tests, antisocial disorder and impulsiveness. Is this all or there is more?

I consulted the book mentioned above and it does a good job of explaining them and providing counter arguments when needed.
However all studies happened in Europe and US. Have we ever had any testing of these theories?


So so far this is all did, is it going well or am I deviating? I finished this book today and I didn't skip anything because I wasn't sure what is included and what isnt. Anyways that's all. Be the guide here please :)

If you need this book, I'll email it.

I have few other questions but I'll ask later. Don't want to inundate.

ursula Monday, March 14, 2016 10:00 PM

[QUOTE=Zainab S;920540]
Hey Ursula,
I hope you are good.[/QUOTE]
alhamdollilah

[QUOTE]My issue with section 1 is that in its point 4 below,

[b]Crime and Criminality: Theoretical Perspectives[/b]
Early explanation of criminal behavior
Biological Theories; Psychological Theories; Sociological Theories.
 Social Disorganization theory
 Strain theory
 Social Control theory
 Learning theory
 Labeling Theory
 Islamic perspective on deviance and crime.

the theories in bullets are all sociological theories. Psychological theories and biological theories are up to us to find and there is no narrowing down for us.[/QUOTE]
just add Chicago school of thoughts, that explains that trajectories of an individual lead to deviance due to social ecology,particularly from ancestors and older member of the society.
Also, my all time favourite and that is [B]marxist criminology[/B], that labels that socioeconomic factors lead to criminal mindset.(Please, if you find a good stuff regarding this than feel free to send me as well:angle)

[QUOTE] So for biological theories I read overview of physiognomy and phrenology; Lombroso's work and Gorings; Sheldon to Cortes; Intelligence and relation between IQ and delinquency; Racial components; The Bell Curve; twins and adoption studies; Autonomic Nervous System and environmentally induced biological components of behavior. Is this all or there is more?[/QUOTE]
Good, can you mention me what is the difference b/w nature vs nurture principle in ascertaining the deviant behaviour, keeping in view of socio-culuture aspects of pakistani society?
If you have grounded good reason than definitely its more than enough.:vic
[QUOTE]For psychological theories I read overview of Sigmund Freud and his psychoanalysis, personality tests, antisocial disorder and impulsiveness. Is this all or there is more?[/QUOTE]
Yup! i read that theory in detail. Now, analyze how criminal midset flourish out of rationalization, innovation, denial, and refutation keeping in view of id,ego and superego.
Secondly, freud also explains odeba complex that also links with feminist criminology in this regard.
In this regard i can share you some aspect that i once read in Norwagian based research institute report related to corporate criminology, which states that crime is more obvious in men than that of their counterparts.(read from this angle as well)
[QUOTE]I have few other questions but I'll ask later. Don't want to inundate.
[/QUOTE]
feel free to ask me!:))

Bookaholic Monday, March 14, 2016 11:29 PM

@ursula
Do you think that international law can be better than criminology?Criminology seems to be having lots of syllabus and also one has to make much effort in finding relevant material for new subjects.As you have been through css,you can give a more informed opinion.Or is it that the cons of international law outweigh its pros.Some opine it‘s easy while others are there which find it extraordinarily difficult and assert that it requires extensive cramming.How criminology can be better.Kindly deliberate.

ursula Tuesday, March 15, 2016 08:56 PM

[QUOTE=Bookaholic;920780]@ursula
Do you think that international law can be better than criminology?Criminology seems to be having lots of syllabus and also one has to make much effort in finding relevant material for new subjects.As you have been through css,you can give a more informed opinion.Or is it that the cons of international law outweigh its pros.Some opine it‘s easy while others are there which find it extraordinarily difficult and assert that it requires extensive cramming.How criminology can be better.Kindly deliberate.[/QUOTE]
first of all i didnt study international law, though i did make a cursory look on malcolm book, but sorry in this regard.:happy:

secondly, sorry bro,what you have needed to [B]focus attentively[/B] is zainabs quote.
[QUOTE=Zainab S;920540] [B]However please try to stick to the subject. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
So, just mention your query in the most [B]apposite place[/B].I hope you will get the most appropiate answer then.

Bookaholic Tuesday, March 15, 2016 11:12 PM

[QUOTE=ursula;921017]first of all i didnt study international law, though i did make a cursory look on malcolm book, but sorry in this regard.:happy:

secondly, sorry bro,what you have needed to [B]focus attentively[/B] is zainabs quote.

So, just mention your query in the most [B]apposite place[/B].I hope you will get the most appropiate answer then. [/QUOTE]
Well,you had ir and generally people with ir think through opting il with it and don‘t take it only after due consideration.So,thought you might would have mulled over not opting it.
Yea,I acknowledge that.But still I was discussing criminology,also in il comparison context.There isn‘t any use of posting in threads which are not being used or which have been long inactive and seldom there are responses to new threads.Because of rampant academy culture,forums are less used now.However,thank you for your invaluable contributions.

ursula Wednesday, March 16, 2016 09:15 PM

[QUOTE=Bookaholic;921056]Well,you had ir and generally people with ir think through opting il with it and don‘t take it only after due consideration.So,thought you might would have mulled over not opting it.
Yea,I acknowledge that.But still I was discussing criminology,also in il comparison context..[/QUOTE]
post in the relevant section, inshallah i will try.

Zainab S Wednesday, March 16, 2016 09:50 PM

Hi,
Sorry it has been raining for last few days. Ptcl is thus being whimsical. It is still whimsical; however, going back to topic.
But first @bookaholic. Dude! I specifically asked not to post irrelevant queries. It is common courtesy to respect wishes of original poster(s). Please make another post, in fact there is a huge section JUST for subject analysis. Ughh

@Ursula
I am relieved that whatever you typed, I had read once. Phew! I read the whole book once like a novel so now I am making notes and adding additional information from internet. I also got "The Oxford Handbook of Criminology" but somehow it goes all over my head.
Marxism as far as I know does not really focus on crime. In my humble opinion, according to Marx, elites make laws that keep the poors poor so revolting against those laws and seeking a more socialist environment might be termed as illegal or crime by law but it is not a crime. For anything he favored such individuals and thought they were necessary to bring revolutions (avant garde). It however, provided base for several other criminologists to base their researches on and use this frame of reference.
This is like the very very basic stuff and I am sure once I re-read it and make notes of it, it won't remain this simple. lol
I will definitely share my notes of marxism and crime. It will take me some days to get there. I am very methodical and slow.

Ok one more question from Section 1-part 2.
[B]Understanding criminology [/B]
-Security (physical, social, economics)

I don't really understand what it means. Does this mean physical security as in carrying guns around for protection? Social cost of protection from crime like hiring private security services, gated communities, investment in security locks and cameras and whole economics of it?

Is it so?

ursula Wednesday, March 16, 2016 11:42 PM

[QUOTE=Zainab S;921284]Hi,
I also got "The Oxford Handbook of Criminology" but somehow it goes all over my head.[/QUOTE]
very good book indeed, let me share you that i also happened to stock out its few chapters, if found difficult than read it in chunks and chuckles.;)

[QUOTE][B]Marxism[/B] as far as I know does not really focus on crime. In my humble opinion, according to Marx, elites make laws that keep the poors poor so revolting against those laws and seeking a more socialist environment might be termed as illegal or crime by law but it is not a crime. For anything he favored such individuals and thought they were necessary to bring revolutions (avant garde). It however, provided base for several other criminologists to base their researches on and use this frame of reference.[/QUOTE]
no lol! its a discipline and clear cut a new and revolutionary perspective.its been inspiring and catalysmic to me as well:D.For example how capitalism is tanatmount to imperialism.and for your info imperialism itself is a breeding ground for criminals. for example [B]role of icc at institutional level( international court of criminals),being exploited and economically made vulnerable at the cost of ASP.and at individual level, the most despecable person on planet earth, Rothschild dynasty-nazis in origin and german jewish in clanship. Any way story gets long and if you need any stuff related to this baggering personality, i can post a verygood documentary as well.[/B]
If you want some more stuff than read out 'david rockefeller and andrew carniegie".Lastly, this word "industrial complex " as well as "global consquest for capitalist hegemony".all the wish list of "corporate crime" as well, which you will read later on.
[QUOTE]Ok one more question from Section 1-part 2.
[B]Understanding criminology [/B]
-Security (physical, social, economics)

I don't really understand what it means. Does this mean physical security as in carrying guns around for protection? Social cost of protection from crime like hiring private security services, gated communities, investment in security locks and cameras and whole economics of it?

Is it so?[/QUOTE]
yupp!
Economic security itself can be best understood in terms of marxism,interesting fact that crimes are more prevalent in developing countries, similarly in [U]ghettos and slum[/U] areas, why? than how economic security can act as a remedy against the rampant deviant criminal behaviour, particularly budding blooms of juvenile delinquency.Similarly, social security as well as physical security.(if you need more assistance feel free to ask me again, because i made extensive observations in this regard)


Note: whatever you read try to link it with pakistani society as well.
i hope it worked though very little, but quite effectively.

Zainab S Thursday, March 17, 2016 04:27 AM

[QUOTE=ursula;921323]very good book indeed, let me share you that i also happened to stock out its few chapters, if found difficult than read it in chunks and chuckles.;) [/QUOTE]

Phew! So I am not the only one. I thought I was very dumb while reading it. lol

[QUOTE]

no lol! its a discipline and clear cut a new and revolutionary perspective.its been inspiring and catalysmic to me as well:D.For example how capitalism is tanatmount to imperialism.and for your info imperialism itself is a breeding ground for criminals. for example [B]role of icc at institutional level( international court of criminals),being exploited and economically made vulnerable at the cost of ASP.and at individual level, the most despecable person on planet earth, Rothschild dynasty-nazis in origin and german jewish in clanship. Any way story gets long and if you need any stuff related to this baggering personality, i can post a verygood documentary as well.[/B] [/QUOTE]

See this is class difference. This reminds of my Conflict criminology's contrasting conflict view. In book theoretical Criminology it is presented as the following.
"... that societies are composed of groups with conflicting values and interests. However, the organized state is not said to represent the values and interests of society as large. Rather, it is said to represent the values and interests of groups that have sufficient power to control the operation of the state. Thus the basic argument of conflict criminology is that there is an inverse relation between power and official crime rate: people with less power are more likely (and people with more power are less likely) to be officially defined and processed as criminals." [sic]

So this follows the third frame reference of positivist criminology i.e. behaviour of law. They usually focus on why some people are termed criminal and some who do similar stuff avoid the tag. One of the things I read yesterday was about different degrees of murders esp. felony murder. If a person dies of heart attack during a bank robbery, the whole gang that comes to rob the bank gets hanged even if one of them is sitting in a car outside while when corporates that neglect or hesitate to enforce proper government codes of conducts go free even if their negligence result in deaths of hundreds of people. Most of the time the punishments they get are in the form of fines and often symbolic in nature. So why law is how it is. Then of course they check legislation process and all the steps.
Your example comes, imho in this section. But I am open to suggestion. Theoretical criminology overlaps a lot of theories. Frankly sometimes I go oh so this can go hand in hand with that other theory too.

Marxism comes under critical criminology that disregard traditional theories and tries to find answers elsewhere. What I understand about it is that it is like a room filled with people who just want to challenge everything that exists outside the room may it be laws, justice system, crime or even society. Everything is on the table.
Anyways I just went back to re-read that small chapter on Marx. So he talked about industrial revolution and how it was affecting social relations of production and then feudalism to capitalism change. He talks about how capitalism is survival of the fittest and keeps gobbling up the less fit so they keep getting smaller and smaller and richer and more and more powerful. Then he talks about polarization of society.
Ok here is what it talks about Marx and his idea of crime:
"Marx did not discuss the problem of crime or its relation to the economic system at length, although he did address the subject in several passages. Hirst argues that Marx's idea of crime centered on the concept of demoralization. Marx believed that it was essential to human nature that people be productive in life and in work. But in industrialized capitalist societies there are large number of unemployed and underemployed people. Because these people are underproductive, they become demoralized and are subject to all forms of crime and vice. Marx called these people "the lumpen-proletariat."
In another passage, Marx argued against the classical philosophy that was dominant in his day, which held that all people freely and equally joined in a social contract for the common good, and that the law represented a consensus of general will. Marx maintained that this view ignored the fact that unequal distribution of wealth in a society produced an unequal distribution of power. Those with no wealth have no power in the formation of the social contract, whereas those with great wealth can control it to represent their own interest. Thus Marx did not see crime ass the willful violation of common good, but as "the struggle of the isolated individual against the prevailing conditions." [sic]

There are few criminologists that based their work on his ideas mainly Bonger. So that's that.
I typed it all while copying it from paper copy and I am like ok what point I was making. Lol
May be that Marx, himself wasn't interested in crime and that there are many other criminologists that went around investigating on crime via socio-economic factors along with others.



[QUOTE]
If you want some more stuff than read out 'david rockefeller and andrew carniegie".Lastly, this word "industrial complex " as well as "global consquest for capitalist hegemony".all the wish list of "corporate crime" as well, which you will read later on.
[/QUOTE]
White collar crime seems such a huge portion. I shall finish this theoretical portion first then move on to that. It is scary, how much there is to read. wow
[QUOTE]
yupp!
Economic security itself can be best understood in terms of marxism,interesting fact that crimes are more prevalent in developing countries, similarly in [U]ghettos and slum[/U] areas, why? than how economic security can act as a remedy against the rampant deviant criminal behaviour, particularly budding blooms of juvenile delinquency.Similarly, social security as well as physical security.(if you need more assistance feel free to ask me again, because i made extensive observations in this regard)

[/QUOTE]
Ecology of crime I guess talks in detail about it. I loved reading about it. So interesting. Please do share your observations, in fact, hold on, I am back to basis. Let me tell you when I reach there so what you say makes sense to me. I have a feeling I messed up above but hey, will learn this way. lol
[QUOTE]
Note: whatever you read try to link it with pakistani society as well.
i hope it worked though very little, but quite effectively.[/QUOTE]

I'll try. :)

Zainab S Thursday, March 17, 2016 04:28 AM

Ursula I really appreciate your help. I hope this doesn't become too bothersome for you. Let me know if it does, will keep it minimum


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