Dont have time to read posts....brother we both have differences between our thoughts and opinion so better to brake the jets here...

Army & ISI Bagwan is USA . how could they go against their Bagwan

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Forget safety.Live where you fear to live.Destroy your reputation.Be notorious

Can you please enlighten us what kind of agreements are politicians in with USA without the knowledge of Army? Does those agreements include this that our radars will not detect their chopers or what? And please name the persons too as said by Kamran so that our knowledge can also enhance about this.

Regards,

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It's lack of faith that makes people afraid of meeting challenges, and I believe in myself!!!!

exactly Army at this trial should be answered of their negligence.they are shameless bloody fool ,like CAOS bt what Gillani said it is worth to fire him. He said That America unilateralism is right. What is this. Both kiyani and gillani ne mulk ka bera gark kar dya he.but if alone criticize army, the bloody revolution will again start.Phly hamara civi institution america ne dstroy kiya and ab ye.This is the worst condition which we people have to suffer.
India will gain 4m these conflicts.
Shame on zardari,
shame on Gillani
shame on kiyani,

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

Dear i have answers for your questions.
1. Do you know who heads Raw or CIA? A civilian or serving military general? As per my knowledge both are civilian organizations.
Whats wrong when military heads the intelligence organizations? The biggest draw back is that military officials are transfered after serving 3 years in ISI and the experience which is the backbone of any organization does not stay in the organization. While the agency headed by the civilian does not have such draw back. Once agency comes under civilian heads it would not be exclusive domain of military and many bright mind who want to pursue the career in forensic and intelligence could easily join it. That's why our intelligence agencies have miserably failed to gather intelligence.

2. tell me a single event when our intelligence agencies successfully conducted espionage operations. No don't give me the example of Afghan war where ISI just trained the talibans and shipped the arms.
ISI miserably failed to predict in 1965 war that India is going to open a new front from lahore.
Fall of Dhaka.....did our intelligence play its role rather any role????
It failed to guess the israeli attack at Kahota.
It failed to predict the Indian response after Kargil episode
And it failed to predict the biggest attacks by TTP
And it has failed now.
Yes it has been efficient in tracking and hunting down politicians and people's representatives. It has been involved in selling pakistanis to americans and extra judicial killings.
Inhun ne kia jawab dena hay...in k pass koi jawab hay hi nahi.

3. Let me tell you an interesting thing. The argument that you put forward k ager army na hoti tu ye ho jata wo ho jata. This is the old tactic effectively utilized by army to get more and more funds. Yar ager India hamara dost ban gaya tu 560000 army rakhnay ka logic tu khatam ho gaya na? why not make india an excuse and grab funds.
Aur waise b ye bat k ager army na hoti tu ye ho jata wo ho jata koi logic nahi. Aray bhai army k honay se b kia farq para hay. Aj unhon ne 2 ghantay ka operation kia hay terrorists k khilaf, kal wo civilians ko lay jayen gay.

4. Why dont you ask army for what they are getting more than 500bn rupees from poor pakistanis and billions of dollars from america? To sleep??? or to eat?

5. I used to trust them but now they have no reason to build such a large force. 1,2 lakh ki force ho jo hamare nuclear assets ko protect ker sakay. Baqi ALLAH khair kray ga. Ager India ne attack kerna hoga, hamari "efficient" army ki waja se nahi rukay ga i m sure.

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Whatever mind can conceive,it can achieve - W.Clement Stone

They don't have any facts to prove their Ability. They don't have any reason so

that is why they are silent.

@waseem
ye to civil instiution he.fault to phr civilan leadrshp as well as in military. The corruption created loopholes in administration an you can't deny these army men are very dear to civil leaders.thats why gillani raised 20grade bureaucrates to 22 grade rank. It is not only In ISI BUT each and evry institution becm victm of it(CORRUPTION).comment.

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"Wa tu izzu man-ta shaa, wa tu zillu man-ta shaa"

Yar ap log kis se jawab ki umeed kr rhe ho???K.L bill K.L bill..o bhai hum ne bhi wo poora bill parh k samjh k hi papers diye thay...Army ne is mulk pe hukoomat kr kr k esi ghulamana zehniyat kar di he logon ki k wo democratically soch hi nahy sakte..My first point is..k kya bura he ager ISI Ministry of Interior k andar ja rhi thi..For ur kind information dunya k tama intelligence agencies civilian Govt ko answerable hoti hain..n I remember an article in DAWN back then by I think.S.J.Burki in which he proved with examples that India,USA,Uk or baki bhi takreeban tamam countries me na sirf intelligence agencies civilian govt k under hein balke 90% k chiefs bhi civilians he,servicemen nahy..Army ko K.L bill se bus yhi problem thi k un ko civilian control me laya ja rha tha(which all of ur constitutions have emphasized upon) or un k iqtidar me ane pe pabandi lagai ja rhi thi..or sub se bari bat ye k jo paisa mil raha tha wo bhookey generals or corrupt army ko nahy balke NGO's or civil establishment ko mil raha tha..
p.s Kamran brother kya behs kr rhe ho..Haven't u seen k in logon k pas koi proof,koi argument nahy he..Generals ki ghissi pitti takreerain sun sun k kathe kiye huy 'knowledge' k against debate kurna I think it is below ur,my,or any sensible Pakistani's dignity..

Waseem has rightly elucidated the issues of the ISI. Fault is both with the civilian and military leadership.

Over years, what is the good done by them, 1948 War , 1965 failed operations of Gibralter and Grandslam and miserable war following those operations, 1971 war and seperation, 1984 siachin issue, 1999 kargil, and only in current year we had two bigger episodes of Raymond Davis and Abbotabad debacle. I dont favor Osama, but that operation was a damn blow on sovereignty and security of the nation. And we all know who helped Raymond Davis go back to his home, it was no other thn our prime intelligence agency.... The military is responsible/custodian for defense of the country to save it from any aggression /attack. On every other day drone come and go, its their second home. who cares!!!

We should love them, I belong to a military family, the family having numbers in both ranks and files... Alas.... We are to standby with sagacious decisions of our both political and military leadership, but where is sagacity ? Both are trying to grab money, power, wealth and assets... And they are getting it, to hell with the nation Pakistan! If they had been having an iota of sense of responsiblity, thn there would have been resignations floating in the offices of their seniors, but they are their own seniors. Whole bloody country is second class and they are the only first class. They should accept their failure of both intelligence as well as logistics etc..

For military and intelligence, I just remember one famous quote, 'military and intelligence are two different things.." A military officer is not necessarily a good intelligence officer. ... Perhaps somebody may know much more thn others about intelligence work!

As regards Pakistan USA relations, I remember that my grandfather was having an old servant, that servant was so much obedient and disciplined, but there was a problem with him, he used to cheat my grandpa and often used to steal money, which was given to him to get something for home/fields etc. Sometime, my grandfather used to get so much infuriarated and would have been so harsh to him but next day /after couple of days, he would call that old servant, would tell him that he is so important for field/home business/works and his need is imperative then would have given him a red note of 100 and that sadened/angry servant would have been happy happy... Once I asked my grandfather, what is this. He told me, son he is idiot, but obedient and very important, if i kick him out, i would be required to keep three or four servants for home, driving, field, etc etc though he cheats but I get his cheating because after all I am his master....... These days I am remembering my grandfather and that old servant very much because similar is the issue with Pakistan and USA relations, you people can think USA as my grandpa and Pakistan as old servant, no offense, this is the real analysis. They are making hue and cry, but Senator John Kerry will visit, will give surety of more money etc and they will be happy happy.... They need money to move on their vehicles/jeeps etc.... Thats the game....

Please I dont want any comments on my post because I wont be able to respond due to paucity of time, to reply those who favour them because either they intend to join the prime intelligence agency or those who dont know anything much but just want to speak anything, whether its good or bad, whether it hurts somebody or not. We are all fellows and forum brethren/fraternity, their could be difference of opinion, but one should not scold or undermine anybody.!!!

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'Thee woh ik shakhs kay tasawar saay - abb woh ranayee khayal kahaan'

@WASEEM BHAI...exceptional answer..truth,truth and nothing else but TRUTH..I think this should silence the haters..but I know they will try to answer this post with Army issued propaganda and we can't do anything but pity their mentality..History tells us k India se jang jeetna tw door ki bat,hmari army ki ittni passli bhi nahy he k un se 2 kanal ka plot churwa skein..They have come out losers in every conflict with India..What makes people think they will defend this country??Indian army k lye aap ki incompetent army 48 hours ki mar he..start digesting this bitter truth..Kis k liye hum ne itni bari army rakhi hui he??Kashmir fatah kurne k lye??1999 me gaye thay na kashmir fatah kurne..utha k mar mar k bahir phaink dia na india ne..laashein tk uthane tw gai nahy ap ki PAK ARMY..PM ko USA bhaij dia k please hmein bacha lo..o 2 bar ap logon ko Democratic Prime Ministers ne bail out kraya he..once in 1972,when ZAB bailed ur 90000 losers out n brought them back to pakistan,and gave them their jobs and the honour(if there is any) back.N kya bdla dia uno ne is ka??usi bande ko phansi charha di..Same was going to happen with Nawaz Sharif in 1999..look..we ,the people of Pakistan plead here..NAHY CHAHIYE HMEIN TUMHARI KURBANIYAN,NAHY CHAHIYE HUMEIN TUM..ziada se ziada 50000 ki army ho jo nuclear assets ki nigrani kre..chowkidar ho,utna hi caliber he wohi bn k raho hmein ye mt sikhao k hmein kaisa pakistani hona chahiye or kaise ye mulk chalana chahiye..jo kuch is mulk ka baki he,kch forex reserves he,kuch exports he tw HUM CIVILIANS ki hi wajah se hein..is mulk ko bhi sustain kr rhe he or is nikammi fauj jo bhi pal rahe hain..kam k na kaj k dushman anaaj k..jo 38,000 jawan shaheed karwaye he wo foj ki top brass ne misguide kr k shaheed karwaye he,without any good reason..They are just pawns in a game of chess..hmein nahy chahiyen is foj ki kurbaniyan kyun k ini kurbaniyon ko advertise kr k tum log 62 sal se hmein kha rahe ho hmari kurbani liye ja rhe ho..ek army general jo hur jung har k bhi DHA ki kothi me betha hua he us se ziada ye ghar wo 14th grade ka clerk deserve kurta he jo atleast koiiii kam tw kr rha hey..or konsa mulk bachaya he army ne??sach sunna he tw sunno k aj adhe se ziada Pakistan tw rha hi nahy he..wo army ki harkaton ki wjah se Bangladesh bn chuka he..n u people still deny k army ne wahan koi mazalim nahy kiye..tw phir q bengalion ko ap ki shakal se nafrat he ub tuk??Indira gandhi said k 2 qomi nazriya baheera e bengal me doob gaya..ye mulk bachaya tm ne or tmari ISI ne army walo??O bhai choro jan Kashmir ki pehle Baluchistan tw bacha lo..shukr kro is corrupt political govt ka jis ne baluchistan or sindh ko bacha lia..vrna wahan se usi trah tum logon ne baher nikalna tha jese east pakistan se nikley thay..Hmein nahy chahiye india se lrai..nahy hein wo hmare dushman un ka darawa de de k hmari zakat khani bnd kardo ub..we want peace with them,and we want prosperity..or ye 21st century he 15th century nahy jahan kisi mulk ki fojain ayein or doosre ko fatah kar lein..hmein funds chahiyen education,health me,power sector me..army ki tond bharney k lye zakat nahy he ub hmare pas..jao koi kashkol pakro or apney generals ko kaho sadkon pe beth jayen or pese mangain..kyun k jo un ki kartoot he they shud be in dis profession rather defending our country..


Aptly said awan bro..


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