When I say it I mean it. But honestly I still am confused about the practicality of the mechanism you gave. First of all, you said about Imran Khan that
Answering a question regarding his relations with ISI and agencies in a recent (17th July 2011) interview in express news program Imran Khan said that he would never come to power on the shoulders of establishment. You say he is willing; he says I am not (watch this video from 23:25) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lAhC...eature=related

I also doubt this statement
This is the construction of Pisa Tower. Everything is fine at the base but deviations become conspicuous when it grows.

I also think that Communist and Turkey's model is outdated in the present age of media and internet. You just can not shut up others.



However, I agree there are serious problems and status quo may not be affordable. Everyone knows democracy is not delivering. But there is no intrinsic fault in democracy. Problem roots in illiterate masses and corrupt politician. But when there is a problem, there is a solution. Counter forces arise naturally which in case of Pakistan is judiciary. And it is far more popular among masses than Imran Khan or any other political leader. Every one in pakistan looks toward cheif justice not only for justice but also for administration issues, load shedding, inflation, gas shortage and so on. So why should establishment and military,if they are really honest, don't think of backing judiciary to ensuring rule of law and nab corruption through executing implementation of judiciary decisions. Wont it be more natural than bring Imran Khan somehow in power through vote rigging or any other "illegal" way. What do you think?



Finally, although I know you don't think good about fans of your "crispy english" but still i want to say that you are an awesome writer whom I always read with respect and wonder.
Sirf is shooq say poochi hain hazaro batain
Main tera husan teray husn e bayan tak daikhoon

Well well well, I was here on discussion forum after a long time to have some healthy discussion but I am afraid to say that the discussion forum fulfill its purpose seldomly now. Gone are the days when healthy and informative discussions used to take place here. So I am out of it, you people can carry on.

Cheers and best regards,

__________________
It's lack of faith that makes people afraid of meeting challenges, and I believe in myself!!!!

@Aphrodite
So basically it boils down to Imran Khan or the military running the country? let’s face it if the big guns like PPP and PMLN could be ousted by the military, IK’s gonna be a nice little puppet too, what leverage is he gona have over the army and plz don’t say the people’s support coz u don’t believe in democracy in the first place, the inherent contradictions in ur argument will become way too amusing.

Plz don’t equate people like Ataturk with imran khan who still thinks the militants attacking our country will go have a nice little vacation in the Caribbean once the US withdraws from Afghanistan.

As long as we consider the army the “king maker” we will never be allowed to choose our leader, the army’s propaganda machine is far too complex for any of us to truly see through. They will make us believe what they want us to believe. Reality and Perception of reality are two very different things.
By the way have you read Military Inc.? The only chance the people of Pakistan have is to ensure they maintain the system of democracy, coz at least the politicians know they’re accountable to the people. An army man or an Army’s puppet, no matter how honest he may be, is accountable to no one. So there’s no point in being scared of taking responsibility for our own future and handing over all the power to the military. The military psyche is to egotistic, they think in terms of the army and the state; rather than people and the state, for them people will always be “civilians” someone they must “protect” and we all saw what Musharraf did in his bid to protect us.

I am not saying the army doesn’t mean well or that Imran Khan isn’t sincere. At the end of the day we must take responsibility for governing our nation or else we’re basically saying to the world no we can’t handle the responsibility of freedom please come enslave us.

“Hitler wasn’t a ‘maniac’”
Tell that to the people who survived his concentration camps. Plz don’t defend genocide just to stand apart from the crowd

In the end just to be whimsical, I wonder if Imran Khan is “elected” as our “Khalifa” will a beardless khalifah be acceptable to our maulavi sahban?

Apparently Aphrodite is a holocaust denial supporter. He/she has the tendency of challenging International facts and figures (First it was with 1971 war, now with Hitler). I wouldn't be surprised If he/she comes up with the argument that holocaust never happened and it was only a propaganda.

Regardless Of hitler being a maniac or not, He literally destroyed his country.

You must know what was the condition of Germany after signing treaty of Versailles (where Germany was held responsible for the misery) Har na-maulood bacha coalition powers ka maqrooz tha, germany ki sairi mines pe coalition powers ka qabza tha, Great depression jab hua tau uska asar bhi germany pe bohat bura hua. mukhtasran, germany dunia ki sab se kamzor qaum ban gai thi. ab 1933 main usne chancelor ka uhda sambhala aur 6 saal main usne Germany ko dunia ki sab se bari taqat bana dia..German idiots should be thoroughly indebted to him.It was he who gave Germans a name, prior to that they were mean/disunited/cowards .. Usne kuch ghalat nahin kia..usne badla lia un logon se jo Germany ka khoon choostay rahe.

However he made some mistakes, like attacking the vast empire of Russia, having not learnt from Napoleons. Secondly he should have not started war with Scandinavian countries before taking on Britain. And a host of others.

Germany ko dunia ki sab si bari taqat banaya takay usay shameless defeat kay liyai prepare karay? lol true and it's not even funny how you said "us nay kuch ghalat nahi kia" because you are justifying the brutal murders of innocent human beings in masses. The bottom line is he destroyed his country and yes Indeed he gave a name to the germans but not a good one in fact a bad one.

Hitler made "some" mistakes, you say. I disagree, the word "some" is not suitable you might wanna replace it with "MANY". He had no Idea (leading the GREATEST NATION, AS YOU SAY) that the Westerners had cracked his communication codes until it was too late, he did not asked japan to declare war on USSR in return for him declaring a war on USA, he did not used enough resources to develop an atomic bomb (it's funny you called germany a greatest nation of those times haha), he did not put germany on a war economy until it was too late, he ordered Luftwaffe to attack british cities while they were doing very well banging RAF hard and he messed it all up, he canceled weapon research programs after the fall of france (how logical, isn't it?), he interfered in the production of me-262 which was a very effective jet interceptor and was probably the words first one and hitler being stupid enough ordered to use it as a bomber and it's production was a huge failure, then he ordered a huge attack on kursk while the russians already knew that he will attack it and hitler was aware of this (trying to be a hero, eh?) and the list will go on and on and on

I wouldn't have him as a role model and I can only smile when I hear someone is following him as a role model .. Maybe people are supporting him as he killed jews brutally in a massive number as anti-jewish attitude satisfies many pakistanis but this will not change the fact that he himself was responsible for DESTROYING his own country

atleast bari taqat to banaya, hamare tarah aiwayen aid pe chal ke great power hone kee khush fehmi to nahin rakhi .. aik waqt main to woh USSR tak pe qabiz hone ke qareeb puhunch gaye the, kam az kam jis ko dushman samajhte the un kaa muqabla karne kee himmat aur unity to thi hitler aur german logun main , hamari tarah hawai behes main to nahin uljhe rahe

__________________
The precondition for existence of a higher humanity is not the state, but the nation possessing the necessary ability.

Takat nahi thi, ghalat fehmi thi. Hoti to aaj war jeet chukay hotay, dunya bhar mai zalil nahi hotay.

Taqat thi..faislay ghalt ho gae. Agar taqat na hoti tau pura scandinavian, France, Poland, Austria, almost Europe and almost RF fatah na kar lia hota. Ye usi ka karnama hai k Germany ko aik nation banaya. 1989 tak ghareeb rehne wala mulk, aj dunia ki biggest powers main shumar hoti hai..seeds usi k sow kiay huay thay.

Biggest ghalti: Japan ko axis power main shamil karna tha..japan drowned Hitler for her own vested interests. Japan pearl harbour pe attack na karta tau na Eisenhour 20 lac army le k Atlantic ocean cross karta, na Germany harta.

We have a tad bit of a problem there. We have very few technocrats in the parliament. In both the houses and provincial legislatures combined I can think up only of some 10 at max. The rest are either feudals, tribals, or members of ‘urban crime syndicate’. And had it been a temporary reality we could have persevered. But the truth is that for the last 65 years children of children of children of such people have reined the political scene. Even in British times, literally the same families have ruled the same land. Their kids aren’t much different. First, they don’t acquire technical education. In some cases where they have, their ‘minds’ remain feudal. It’s the system they live inside. How will we ever beat this system? Any way out? These feudals will never let an educated, middle class take over. Last night I am sure many saw the show on Geo asking if “a common man can run for elections”. The answer is obvious. Your suggestion of “may the best man lead in parliament” is sincere and just. But who will ensure that the best man:
-enters parliament
-And then leads it?
This parliament selected a supranational thief Zardari for president-a man who has been tried and tested twice. For all the available engineers and public policy experts (lets assume this in theory) the parliament hasn’t been able to approve any of the energy projects. For instance, the problem with sindh Thar coal project is that the ministers are fighting each other for maximum share in it. Since they haven’t been able to agree, the project hasn’t really started leave apart 2 blocks.

Dekhein, its not that those who look down upon democracy are tired of the tests or the waiting period. Its alternatives, by God, are a lot more testing of public patience. I, or others like me, don’t find solutions in it because in Pakistan’s present circumstances, such a route in unlikely to bear fruit. Either revamp the system and then follow this route. But revamping will again always mean aggressive, strict measures. Even if you want to bring in a peaceful change, the resistance will be so great, that it will deter prospects for such peaceful change. In lieu of a violent resistance, you will also have to undertake stricter route. Or you will fail. These aren’t my views. Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Chanakya, Clausewitz- all have proven this. What is common to all of them is that they based their ideas on human nature that has remained the same over ages. World leaders read and adhere to them. Kya faida eik time tested logic ko challenge karne ka. This is why, I feel democracy in Pakistan has a long way to go. Abhi time nahi aya.
And yes, its never too late to make amends. We should mend our policy today. But again, that requires a political will which is absent in Parliament today. So either change the whole parliament and bring in a new one. Or cap this ambitious project for a while and take some contingency, emergency measures. What looks more feasible to you?
Plus, even I agreed that IK isn’t the best man for the job. But he is the best of the lot. Give him a chance. Since he lacks in leadership skills but is honest, I suggested replacing his lack of leadership skills with the backing of the establishment. And we shouldnt be so astonished at this proposition. It has secretly been the code of most political systems around the world in their days of infancy. Sometimes it’s the military. Sometimes a single, political party. At other times, its another country. The idea being, that a support system other than an unarmed public is vital for survival. Bhutto ko jab latkaya tha, toh awam ne kya karliya? The public loved him. Many actually cried. But they couldn’t do anything on their own. The other option is, for this public to come out in revolution. A revolution with equal risk of being hijacked by external elements. In that case, the President will have the same traits but a different face. I know, there are no simply answers.


Why did Napoleon loose at Waterloo? Failure of logistics. Everyone knows he was a master tactician. But he became too ambitious and ignored his own advice of securing logistics.
Role of army away from politics. If you also adhere to the Islamic system, its odd why you cant relate to a politicized army. After all, wasn’t the idea of Caliph one of a soldier cum statesmen? There is no difference of politics and army in Islam. In fact, the pre-requisite is that both have to be combined.
If USA supports indigenous dictatorships, why did the Arab world revolt against their dictators recently? It’s the other way around. They find a corrupt dictator to guard their interests in that region. Many dictators started out sincere, but were bought halfway. Others were incompetent and weak and unwittingly gave in. Others, who didn’t comply were aptly removed.
I don’t think of Hitler as a role model. I simply said, that he was only as bad as any other imperial power. However, if you’re analyzing him in terms of his rule inside Germany, I can tell you that the economic and social indicators during that period were pretty decent. The people were happy with him (search his speeches and the audience reception to judge this). History also points out that the Germans considered him to be a messiah at a time when Germany had been inflicted with a crushing defeat. All this, despite being a totalitarian. What I mean is, people aren’t too concerned about the difference between a totalitarian or a democrat. They primarily seek a good life, and when that has been achieved, Glory.
What do minor adjustments in Islamic system mean? Havent we been given the power of “Ijma’ and ‘Qiyas’? For eg, in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, Allama Iqbal supports the idea of a Republic in Turkey and he writes that although this wasn’t practiced in early Islam, modern times sanction such a change. This is called, “minor adjustment”. I know there cant be any changes to God’s laws. And any Majlis Shura that may convene has a very limited scope of law-making, i.e, within the framework already provided by Shariah.

I would ask you not to twist my words for your purposes. Holocaust did occur. But the number of jews killed during the period are highly debated. And im not the only one to question it. In some cases, its state policy like in Iran. At other times, major historians like David Irving or Hollywood celebs like Mel Gibson have done so. The jist being- its nothing new or even shocking. I haven’t come upto any solid conclusion in that regard yet but I know that it was a ‘world war’. Apart from the contested 6 million jews killed, there was an equal amount of non-jews killed-yes, inside those very concentration camps. However the Zionists have over-emphasized their numbers, completely downplaying the other 6 million non-jews. Something bad happened. But that bad shouldn’t be selected to be manipulated. That’s just half the information. And that’s the only problem I have.

I may challenge your notions of whats correct, but not of International community as you’ve retorted. Even when talking about 1971 war, I hadn’t challenged ‘facts’ with my own wits. I had done so with the help of research conducted on the subject and the resulting improbability of such high claims.
Lastly, if youre so worried about being banned, I suggest you quit such maneuvers that aim at attacking people instead of ideas.




IK will negate this army connection till the day he dies. The reason being, he is a democrat but now is realizing that compromises will have to be made. But compromises are never made public. Its called political expediency. Politics has been a dirty game ever since the days of Plato. Things happen which you and me don’t like hearing about. A couple that decides to live together despite beating each other up and abusing, is making a compromise. In order to put up appearances, they are willing to deny such a horrible reality.
That Turkey or Chinas example wont apply today. It will. It always will. Because human nature will never change. Its simply about making necessary and intelligent adjustments to suit your circumstances. Mao didn’t rip off Marx’ ideas as applied to USSR wholesale. He tailored it to suit to China’s different socio-political reality.
The reasons why democracy cannot function well here for the time-being isn’t just confined to illiterate masses or corruption. These are however, principle obstacles, no doubt. There are other issues like, a certain privileged class ruling supreme over legislatures, dysfunctional (as distinct from corrupt) public sector, Neo-cons’ complicated control over the political and economic system of Pakistan and so on. How will we ever rectify these problems by giving power to the people? People who worry too much about their next bread and protecting their families to think in advance about crisis resolution. That will come later, when they are devoid of these basic problems and have been educated. Jahan tak judiciary ka sawal hai, I have doubts about it too. After CJP’s reinstatement even I felt there was a change for better when he addressed the NRO and other corruption scandals. But what I saw was that he failed to give express orders for immediate problems. Most of the cases that he has opened up, have seen no daylight (verdict). Our problem is ‘quick justice’. Justice delayed, is justice denied.

Thank you for your appreciation of my writing. I also hope there’s more to me than my English. I envy people who can remember poetry, cuz ive never been able to. But they certainly add that finesse, specially if said in Urdu. English doesn’t really cut it as much as Urdu.

Regards,


“Contradiction is not a sign of falsity, nor the lack of contradiction a sign of truth.”
Blaise Pascal
If he is a puppet that serves your interests, wont you embrace such a puppet? But he wont be a puppet. He should be free to correct Paks problems. I am only talking of an establishment support that he alone cannot conjure. Leave him alone without any support and lets see how long he survives when Uncle Sam arrives. Politics, as I said above, is by its very nature contradictory, filthy, and unscrupulous. The only good you can expect from it, in the best of circumstances, is that this will ease up a layman’s life. But in political power brokering, the only time in man’s history this has occurred honestly is during the rule of Holy Prophet (saw) and The Rightly Guided Caliphs. If you aspire for such a system, then be ready to welcome the days of the Shariah coupled with honest leadership. No other political system will ensure you the same.
When did I equate IK with Ataturk? Not to say, I have a high opinion of Ataturk. But that’s for different reasons. He was however, a strongman. Arent you being contradictory btw? You seem to have a high opinion of Ataturks statesmanship yet you wont bear such a dictator leading you J Cant have the cake and eat it too right? Further, IK’s views aren’t always practical but at least he is honest. Do you see anyone else whose honest? And its precisely because of this shortcoming that he needs a support system. He cannot function alone.
How is the army using propaganda of the most intricate variety, as you have claimed? Please point out the mechanism or the tools. On the contrary I see a lively propaganda against the army ongoing. How can it disseminate propaganda? By buying the media? The media for the most part is against the army. By using its own ISPR? What is the frequency, quantity and quality of its announcements? How else, do you think, the army can propagandize? Do elaborate.
Sure, we should take responsibility for governing our country. But my question remains. Do we have what it takes, right now? Don’t want to repeat the same old problems I have delineated above. But even you know where we lack. Democracy is a very difficult system to control. Its not devoid of its pre-requisites.
Acha I don’t understand when someone misquotes me like this, “Hitler wasn’t a maniac”. Either quote the entire context or don’t do it at all. Its like that famous example whence Westerners have a habit of quoting from Quran that “Slay the infidels wherever you find them”. Period. They simply eliminate the verse prior or post this one which explains the entire scenario benevolently. I also said, “Hitler was only as bad as the next imperial power”. USA, Britain, France, Italy, Israel- you think they haven’t ordered genocide? Whats happening in Somalia, Sudan, Congo and Niger delta today? As for your accusation regarding ‘standing apart from the crowd’. Maybe in your mind, I may stand apart but its not a deliberate attempt on my part. Lets just say I am a natural at it.

when I said “Hitler wasn’t a maniac” I was saying, that western propaganda has portrayed him like a cartoon character going wild-which he wasn’t. Holocaust was an extreme and inhumane extension of a basically correct premise that Jews did have a hand in messing up nations politically. If you doubt that, go through their history and the works of major intellectuals of that period and you’ll know. However, genocide will always be unjustified.
And I think ill ignore your last question regarding IK as the Khalifa. Its obvious you have skipped through my posts without understanding them. These are 2 distinct systems I have talked about. You’ve mixed both- in a bid to be whimsical.