[QUOTE=Enlightened]I think, Pakistan would have been in the same conditions post 9/11 as it's today wether under the leadership of Musharaf or any other leader. [/QUOTE]

Well i totally disagree. I believe that what Musharaf has done after 9/11 was something very different. Other democratic govt would have behaved in some different manner.

[QUOTE=Enlightened] I think for the sake of democracy and positive image of Pakistan, Pakistan would be better off without Musharaf under the leadership of some democratically elected president.[/QUOTE]

yeah Pakistan needs democracy + good governance. What would we say if Musharaf throw away his army's envelope and appear in election as a civilian candidate. Would we be able to accept him as a democratic politician???

Well thanks impossible,

Well on first point wether some other political leader would have behaved differently, we could agree to disagree.

I think, he could certainly appear as one of the candidates to be next elected president of Pakistan. He has experience and relations that could certainly put him ahead of many other candidates.

soon after nine eleven when he was threatend by the american war lord he should have replied like shah Faisal of saudia arabia in senveties oil embargo scinerio that "I would like to be a tent dweller than a friend of you"

Pak Army Air force and Navy as well as the mountains courages of its people are not easy to wipe out them and send them to the stone age.

history is the witness of the fact that whoever leader dare to stand in front of american aggression america always preferred to withdraw from its aggression.

north korea and Iran are the glaring examples of this facts

Dunia may sirf diplomatic tareeqe ikhtiar karke chand sikkho ki khatir apna tan man and dhan bheij dena aur khairat e immani se jasham poshi karna eak musalman leader ko zeb nahi deta.

musharaf the biggest cheater of muslim umma in the current century. history will remember him with great curse. who sold his faith to america killed hundred thousand of its own brothers.

shame
shame
shame

its seems darkening to predict that we would be better after musharraff!but i m sure for regional strategic issues,its really hard to find a person like musharraf!We all now know that there is strong influence of USA behind martyr of First Prime Minister of Pakistan Liaqat Ali Khan.Similarly we all knows the hands behind Zia-ul-Haq martyr.The bottom line is Americans intersts uptil need musharraf presence in subcontinent.Its a fact that out national Policies are molded since 59 years with American interests.So keeping this context to have hands in America's Pocket, Musharraf is a necessary Evil.No one seems in our whole Political system to replace his position.I quote here the statement of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice"We can't imagine Pakistan without Musharraff!". In a Nutshell we need some evolutionary Person to turn the tide of US Pressure and make bold steps in foreign Policy to walk side by side the world and unfortunately we have no such leader.So i again consolidate my point that Musharraf is a necessary evil to hold the reins of Pakistan.

@ tariq

salam

it is not that easy man to say to USA to back off!!!!!
MUSSARAF is not the out come of 9/11 but he came coz of failing democracy.
IRAN and N KOREA are poles apart.
one is muslim, which surely is on US agenda but N KOREA might not be.US needs one country to divert worlds attention.
PRESIDENT recent trip has positive effect on PAKISTAN reputation.

its not coz of MUSSARAF that many MUSLIM died but coz of OSAMA,who gave him self importance on muslim umma.

but the question is do we need MUSHARRAF i think yes.
who else
nawaz shariff????? tried twice
benazir bhutto????????? same
or their allies MMA,MQM ???????????
who,
another army general????????/

give me a name who stands out.
right now he is the best option.
regards

i think we dont need a persoanlity , we need a democratic process. I am not a big fan of our politicians they are miscreants and B team of our Army. they seek for the Chair through GHQ. and our military has always sabotaged the evolutionary process of democracy.
Let me clear one thing democracy is not an instrument u install and it starts working 100%. It is infact a process that creats a congenial environment for good governance. Had democracy being given a chance, situation could have improved. Our so called politicians would have been sitting outside in the evolutionary democratic process (Gash our army would have restrained from getting into politics and had given a chance to the genuine democracy not the kind of chances our army has given like post 1988 during which ISI was used to choose a winner from one of the political parties, rigging etc is in the culture of our politics) So we dont need Musharraf , Nawaz, Bibi but a leader who is born through Democracy,

hi all

change in polices or lawwon't work untill the common man is made aware of them.. and tat is only possible wid education.... we r at the moment a crowd who is not concerned abt wat is happening around .. the day we will act like a nation we'll b on the right road....
ofcourse our leaders r not sincer enough .. neither they have visions .. they just make things look glittery while they r all rotten ....

wat i can say is , lets us be the change we want to c here
regards
________
I m an idealist , i don't know where i m going but i m on my way

hi again ...


here is a little story tat perfectly suits our situation ... of unconcerned public and govt...

here goes..
A turtle family went on a picnic. The turtles, being naturally slow about things, took seven years to prepare for their outings. Finally the Turtle family left home looking for a suitable place. During the second year of their journey they found it. For about six months they cleaned up the area, unpacked the picnic basket, and completed the arrangements.

Then they discovered they had forgotten the salt. A picnic without salt would be a disaster, they all agreed. After a lengthy discussion, the youngest turtle was chosen to retrieve the salt from home. Although he was the fastest of the slow moving turtles, the little turtle whined, cried, and wobbled in his shell.

He agreed to go on one condition: that no one would eat until he returned. The family consented and the little turtle left. Three years passed and the little turtle had not returned. Five years, Six years... Then in the seventh year of his absence, the oldest turtle could no longer contain his hunger. He announced that he was going to eat and began to unwrap a sandwich. At that point the little turtle suddenly popped out from behind a tree shouting, "SEE I knew you wouldn't wait. Now I am not going to go get the salt."


Lesson Learned:
Some of us waste our time waiting for people to live up to our expectations. We are so concerned about what others are doing that we don't do anything ourselves.

regards
________________
I m an idealist , i don't know where i m going but i m on my way

I dont even consider the caption of this thread as a question?
Because if u cosider pakistan as a nation,, then nations don't need dictators at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,and i consider pakistan as a nation,,,,,,,,,unfortunately there are some traitors who support the dictator,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
What do u think about a general who succumed to the threat that pakistan will be bombed to the stone age and then he used his own country to destroy a brotherly muslim and neibhourly country,,,,,,,,,,,,

We should not have succumed to this threat,,,,,,,As respect is more necessary than food,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Those who support musharraf must disagree with Sultan Tapo when he said that one day life of lion is better than 100 years of life of a jackal,,,,,,,,,
Under musharraf, we are like jackals, who say yes on every question of uncle sam.
take care

@ thinking

i agree wid u .... but don't u think tat we hv no other choice its a cynical word of tough competetors ... and wid no unity with in the muslim world... how can a country like Pakistan can take a stand...... where we declare our heros as rebels.....
regards

_________
I m an Idealist, i don't where i m going but i m on my way

@ thinking

i agree wid u .... but don't u think tat we hv no other choice its a cynical word of tough competetors ... and wid no unity with in the muslim world... how can a country like Pakistan can take a stand...... where we declare our heros as rebels.....
regards

_________
I m an Idealist, i don't where i m going but i m on my way

[QUOTE=tariq afridi]soon after nine eleven when he was threatend by the american war lord he should have replied like shah Faisal of saudia arabia in senveties oil embargo scinerio that "I would like to be a tent dweller than a friend of you"

Pak Army Air force and Navy as well as the mountains courages of its people are not easy to wipe out them and send them to the stone age.

history is the witness of the fact that whoever leader dare to stand in front of american aggression america always preferred to withdraw from its aggression.

north korea and Iran are the glaring examples of this facts

Dunia may sirf diplomatic tareeqe ikhtiar karke chand sikkho ki khatir apna tan man and dhan bheij dena aur khairat e immani se jasham poshi karna eak musalman leader ko zeb nahi deta.

musharaf the biggest cheater of muslim umma in the current century. history will remember him with great curse. who sold his faith to america killed hundred thousand of its own brothers.

shame
shame
shame[/QUOTE]

Janab u need to mind ur language, u are talking abt our president. Well i am not saying that i respect him from the deepest core of my heart but at least, i give him honor coz his honor and dignity is our honor and dignity.

That is totally out of question that his decisions were not shrewed coz they really were. Otherwise, i ll really appreciate if u could tell that what he would had to do after 9/11 ???

[QUOTE=Najabat]its seems darkening to predict that we would be better after musharraff!but i m sure for regional strategic issues,its really hard to find a person like musharraf!We all now know that there is strong influence of USA behind martyr of First Prime Minister of Pakistan Liaqat Ali Khan.Similarly we all knows the hands behind Zia-ul-Haq martyr.The bottom line is Americans intersts uptil need musharraf presence in subcontinent.Its a fact that out national Policies are molded since 59 years with American interests.So keeping this context to have hands in America's Pocket, Musharraf is a necessary Evil.No one seems in our whole Political system to replace his position.I quote here the statement of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice"We can't imagine Pakistan without Musharraff!". In a Nutshell we need some evolutionary Person to turn the tide of US Pressure and make bold steps in foreign Policy to walk side by side the world and unfortunately we have no such leader.So i again consolidate my point that Musharraf is a necessary evil to hold the reins of Pakistan.[/QUOTE]

Yeah w really need some evolutionary person but i think we dont have any other option than Musharaf. Still if we have any other, then kindly share wid us so we could have our say over him/her for a better future of Pakistan.

[QUOTE=afrms]@ tariq

salam

it is not that easy man to say to USA to back off!!!!!
MUSSARAF is not the out come of 9/11 but he came coz of failing democracy.
IRAN and N KOREA are poles apart.
one is muslim, which surely is on US agenda but N KOREA might not be.US needs one country to divert worlds attention.
PRESIDENT recent trip has positive effect on PAKISTAN reputation.

its not coz of MUSSARAF that many MUSLIM died but coz of OSAMA,who gave him self importance on muslim umma.

but the question is do we need MUSHARRAF i think yes.
who else
nawaz shariff????? tried twice
benazir bhutto????????? same
or their allies MMA,MQM ???????????
who,
another army general????????/

give me a name who stands out.
right now he is the best option.
regards[/QUOTE]

101% agreed !!!

[QUOTE=Conqueror]i think we dont need a persoanlity , we need a democratic process. I am not a big fan of our politicians they are miscreants and B team of our Army. they seek for the Chair through GHQ. and our military has always sabotaged the evolutionary process of democracy.
Let me clear one thing democracy is not an instrument u install and it starts working 100%. It is infact a process that creats a congenial environment for good governance. Had democracy being given a chance, situation could have improved. Our so called politicians would have been sitting outside in the evolutionary democratic process (Gash our army would have restrained from getting into politics and had given a chance to the genuine democracy not the kind of chances our army has given like post 1988 during which ISI was used to choose a winner from one of the political parties, rigging etc is in the culture of our politics) So we dont need Musharraf , Nawaz, Bibi but a leader who is born through Democracy,[/QUOTE]

Yeah it would be so stupid os us to give chance to these old politicians to hold the reins of Pakistan. They already have proved their non-reliability many times. The thing we need is democracy but the real one, not this old one that is already prevailing in Pakistan.

[QUOTE=hina]hi all

change in polices or lawwon't work untill the common man is made aware of them.. and tat is only possible wid education.... we r at the moment a crowd who is not concerned abt wat is happening around .. the day we will act like a nation we'll b on the right road....
ofcourse our leaders r not sincer enough .. neither they have visions .. they just make things look glittery while they r all rotten ....

wat i can say is , lets us be the change we want to c here
regards
[/QUOTE]

Yeah common man has no part in this system coz he is oblovion of all this political process. His involvement is possible if democracy comes up. But it is only a hope that democracy will prevail in Pakistan. History showns that democracy fails due to its misuse by govt.

[QUOTE=hina]
Lesson Learned:
Some of us waste our time waiting for people to live up to our expectations. We are so concerned about what others are doing that we don't do anything ourselves.

regards[/QUOTE]

We need to be pragmatic. It should be better to follow the order of the day. We also need to be prompt in our decision making process. It would be much much better to hold the principles of Islam too. Because Islam will help us to walk on the road of prosperity alongwith this world.

[QUOTE=thinking]Those who support musharraf must disagree with Sultan Tapo when he said that one day life of lion is better than 100 years of life of a jackal,,,,,,,,,
Under musharraf, we are like jackals, who say yes on every question of uncle sam.
take care[/QUOTE]

Okkk if Musharaf would not be doing so then could u please tell that where we would be standing today? Was it possible for us to be alive???

He is not a coward. Don know why dont we realize that he is just trying to be diplomatic to follow the order of the say. He is doing so for our very existence. Think over it !!!

IM Possible.....dear bro its my personal opinion so dissgreement is everyone right.I am totally agree with you that in current scenerio we have no better option than Musharraff.We have an option in form of Imran Khan.i found him a man of Words and wisdom.But Politics and unthical politics is out of his books so its really feel impractical if i porposed him second option but i would like to say that he has that potential but our political grounds are not matured for him to rule!nwayz mr Im Possible i m totally agreed tht musharraf is necessary evil:-)

Respected Impossible,

i was talking about the Leadership of Musharaif and the Vision of Quaid. I ensure that theme of the thread will remain intact.

Thanks,

Respected Brother Khurram, you have nicely put your thoughts. i appreciate.
But you only shed a light on Quaid's vision and you didn't compare it with Musharraf leadership.

Do you find in any of speech of Quaid, that He favoured Army's role in politics? Is the Musharaf presence in politics is the manifiestation of Quaid's vision?

I shall also discuss that what is vision and who translates it into reality.
But right now i am running short of time.

Looking forward,

Kind Regards,

[QUOTE=Najabat]IM Possible.....dear bro its my personal opinion so dissgreement is everyone right.I am totally agree with you that in current scenerio we have no better option than Musharraff.We have an option in form of Imran Khan.i found him a man of Words and wisdom.But Politics and unthical politics is out of his books so its really feel impractical if i porposed him second option but i would like to say that he has that potential but our political grounds are not matured for him to rule!nwayz mr Im Possible i m totally agreed tht musharraf is necessary evil:-)[/QUOTE]

Well i dont have idea regarding the new crop of politicians of pakistan but i believe that Imran Khan is good but a novice. One should consider its age in politics. Secondly, we may have other politicians which have not got the chance to rule over Pakistan. I believe that it would be better to give chance to any new person this time.

Dont know why you call Musharaf an evil??? At times, he had saved pakistan. If u take it in consideration then u may also have an ambiguous opine about him. He is good aswellasbad ina sense.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]Respected Impossible,

i was talking about the Leadership of Musharaif and the Vision of Quaid. I ensure that theme of the thread will remain intact.

Thanks,[/QUOTE]

Okay i will find it more fuinctional if u could elucidate this statement of yours.

[QUOTE=Khyber]
Do you find in any of speech of Quaid, that He favoured Army's role in politics? [/QUOTE]


Quaid never appreciated army coups. But what to do if democracy fails in Pakistan??? Should we go and ask Quaid what to do ??? If he would be at our place, he must also be saying that failure of democracy is the rationale ehind four army coups.

[QUOTE=Khyber]Is the Musharaf presence in politics is the manifiestation of Quaid's vision?

[/QUOTE]


I would like to hear from u on this statement of urs coz u put it forward.

Regards

I M Really Sorry To Say Not All The General Public Of Pakistan Is Educated We Don Knw Who Is Capable Who Is Not Becaz Not Even 80% Of The Public Is Free Frm Other Tensions Of Food N Shelter N R Still Far Behind In Education Ppl Dont Hav Chances To Come N Knw Wats Going On I Still Hav Seen Ppl In My Surrounding Poor Ppl Who Don Even Knw Wat Is Presidentship Or Govt All Abt

[QUOTE=hirass]I M Really Sorry To Say Not All The General Public Of Pakistan Is Educated We Don Knw Who Is Capable Who Is Not Becaz Not Even 80% Of The Public Is Free Frm Other Tensions Of Food N Shelter N R Still Far Behind In Education Ppl Dont Hav Chances To Come N Knw Wats Going On I Still Hav Seen Ppl In My Surrounding Poor Ppl Who Don Even Knw Wat Is Presidentship Or Govt All Abt[/QUOTE]

I totally agree that pakistani are not that eligible to elect the ruling person. May be this is the reason behind the failure of democracy. But some masses are eligible to identify the best persons to rule over Pakistan. We should have their say in the political development process.

Regards

Topic is nodoubt very intresting and when i read opinions of u people it gave me an impression that musharraf is an hobsons choice for us and we have nobody to replace him as all the other leaders are unreliable.
Question number one , Is musharraf reliable?
[COLOR="blue"][COLOR="Red"]A person who took the power by a conspiracy.
A person who broke the constitution.
A person who gave 7 points Agenda when he got power and he is unable to enforce it after around 7 years.
A person who made character assasination of National hero Dr Abdul Qadeer .
A person who insanely used military against his own people in balochistan.
A person who couldnot sustain the pressure of a threat by a superpower and took 180 degrees turn in his country policies.
A person who is admitting that he can do anything if he is threatend,how can he be the leader when he does`nt possess the imperative quallity of leadership.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
This charge sheet could be much bigger but i think it is enough to doubt musharraf's reliability.
[COLOR="Blue"]And as far as replacement of musharraf is concerned The Great Imran Khan is the best choice.HE is no doubt reliable,honest,highly educated,patriotic ,brave and possess a charismatic personality almost all the qualities of leadership .He is the man whom our country need.
This is my opinion i may be wrong but i will love to see replies from ur people especially for imran as replacement for mushi.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=javediqbalnizami]Topic is nodoubt very intresting and when i read opinions of u people it gave me an impression that musharraf is an hobsons choice for us and we have nobody to replace him as all the other leaders are unreliable.
Question number one , Is musharraf reliable?
[COLOR="blue"][COLOR="Red"]A person who took the power by a conspiracy.
A person who broke the constitution.
A person who gave 7 points Agenda when he got power and he is unable to enforce it after around 7 years.
A person who made character assasination of National hero Dr Abdul Qadeer .
A person who insanely used military against his own people in balochistan.
A person who couldnot sustain the pressure of a threat by a superpower and took 180 degrees turn in his country policies.
A person who is admitting that he can do anything if he is threatend,how can he be the leader when he does`nt possess the imperative quallity of leadership.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
This charge sheet could be much bigger but i think it is enough to doubt musharraf's reliability.
[/QUOTE]

Musharaf is a hobson's choice. Thats a truth.

But he is reliable to an extent. U can imagine urself on his position, then dare to reply that what u could do in this sort of position??? When u dont have any other option then u must have done the same things that he has done.

We dont need an army chief as president.

[QUOTE=Khyber]Respected Brother Khurram, you have nicely put your thoughts. i appreciate.
But you only shed a light on Quaid's vision and you didn't compare it with Musharraf leadership.

Do you find in any of speech of Quaid, that He favoured Army's role in politics? Is the Musharaf presence in politics is the manifiestation of Quaid's vision?

I shall also discuss that what is vision and who translates it into reality.
But right now i am running short of time.

Looking forward,

Kind Regards,[/QUOTE]

Assalam-o-Alakim,,

Quaid's vision had no place for military rule ... But however his practical behaviour did provide the necessary ground for even the military rule. Please thoroughly read the following very solid analytical selection by Miss. Naqvi, on this issue:

[URL="http://www.cssforum.com.pk/compulsory-subjects/pakistan-affairs/4651-failure-pakistan-develop-political-system.html"]http://www.cssforum.com.pk/compulsory-subjects/pakistan-affairs/4651-failure-pakistan-develop-political-system.html[/URL]

Secondly, I am also not supporter of military rule... But I am also not supporter of so called modern democracy. Please read all my posts on the following thread. I have tried to explain my point of view regarding the solution to Pakistan's political problem:

[URL="http://www.cssforum.com.pk/compulsory-subjects/essay/essays/4481-future-pakistans-politics.html"]http://www.cssforum.com.pk/compulsory-subjects/essay/essays/4481-future-pakistans-politics.html[/URL]


@ Impossible

Sorry because I have not thoroughly gone through the issue of Hudood Ordinance. My general understanding is that many Muslim learned scholars have not opposed the changes in this ordinance. It means that changes are not going against the basic teachings of Islam. Only political ulema had opposed the changes but now they also have given their consent.


Thanks!

Wa'a'likumSalam Brother Khurram,

From constitution of Pakistan,

[B]“Functions of Armed Forces.- 1[(1)][/B]

[QUOTE]"The Armed Forces shall, under the directions of the Federal Government, defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war, and, subject to law, act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.” [/QUOTE]

Civil power means in terms of natural disasters and calmities, they can be called upon only and not to rule the country.

Regards,
Khyber

@ Khyber

Thanks for sharing article of Constitution.

Fact is that constitution is not powerful than the power of Army chief.

The thread is getting really hot by the timely participation of Impossible, and all other members. The replies are really analytical and descriptive in their approach like Khuram, Khyber and Nour.

I would like to ask few questions as raised by Javediqbalnizami (Junior Member) although Impossible tried to provide timely answer but its not sufficient. I was one among those who always supported Musharaf's stay in the office. But his recent movements and views as presented in his autobiography changed my perspective regarding his ability to deal affairs. Almost every fact presented in the book is denied by the related personnals, so what is the validity of book? even if you will read the columns now a days written about book round the world are showing him a wrong choice to stay in the office. He has said that his mother and father both won a price for dancing and even he start his morning with music... so are we governed by a muslim ruler? we should peep into the reality and shall get the indication of time. I m also in the favour that Imran Khan should be given a chance to hold office and he will be the best choice for Pakistan.

I always admired his foriegn policy and so the same now. But what if internal affairs are not handled in the right way...? You can never make your position outside if you r not strong at your home. And he is unable to handle domestic affairs. We can see its worst example in Balochistan, even the rate of crimes is rising very high all over the country. World ranking has provided the fact that its the time when curroption reached its highest in Pakistan even more than any Political government.... do he has an answer to it..? definately not. To govern a country its first requirement to maintain peace and inflation within the reach of a common man.... but its not the case now. Yes political goverments do the same but Army is one we trust them as the most reliable and honest department in Pakistan but their rule has spoiled that image. So its better to give a chance to political tennure for holding affairs, it will help in stabalizing political system in pakistan.

Even statistical malingering in economical survey cant withstand before a lay man even so no question arise for expert opinion. There are few good points about his stay and that is high rate of investment from other countries that provided Pakistan with new resources and helped to reduce poverty.

[QUOTE]Fact is that constitution is not powerful than the power of Army chief.[/QUOTE]

Dear Brother, you seem to have subscribed to this conclusion that Army cheif is all-in-all and constitution has no worth before him.

But in a civilized countries, no one can neither challenge the constitution and nor one can excel one's power over any consolidated constitution.

Mr. K. Robertson writes in his Book, "Pakistan Odyssey" P.No.198

"...........In Pakistan Law makers are law breakers........There will be some laws and constitution in paradise but Pakistan is a lawless paradise......."

This is the reason that why we still fall in list of retrogressive countries because neither we have a consolidated constitution which defines the future road-map and nor do we have any destination. we are like a sinking boat and our corrupt politicians have brought this country at the verge of destruction.

Thurgood Marshall (1908–1993), U.S. jurist. ones said about constitution,

[B]If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a state has no business telling a man, sitting in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch. Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds.[/B]

Kind Regards,
Khyber-e-Pukhtunistan

[QUOTE]Miss_Naqvi
Member [/QUOTE]

You have raised some good points in your post sister. Article of Hamid Mir in yesterday's Jhang titled "Munafikat" is worthy of reading because it unleashes the true face of our president.

[B]He has said that his mother and father both won a price for dancing and even he start his morning with music... so are we governed by a muslim ruler? [/B]

Dear sister you are being ruled by second Ata Turk of this century who destroyed the Ottoman Empire which was an Islamic Center of the whole ummah and all issues vis-a-vis ummah were resolved and voiced from that center.

Musharaf is duplicating the governance of Attaturk who relienquished all cultural and moral values and adopted some innovative codes of culture. But sister, here we need to realize that cultural oppression never leads to an excellence or peace and progress. if to relinquish your cultural values brings prosperities and helps you in building your progressive image in the world's eye then i think today the turkey would have become the world leader. But neither it became a world leader and nor did it contribute anything to the ummah.

But who can deny the importance of Ottoman Empire which contributed in every realm of muslim's life. it contributed to literautre, culture, values, above all it united the whole ummah at one forum.

Kind Regards,

[QUOTE=Khyber]

From constitution of Pakistan,

[B]“Functions of Armed Forces.- 1[(1)][/B]
[I]
"The Armed Forces shall, under the directions of the Federal Government, defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war, and, subject to law, act in aid of civil power when called upon to do so.” [/I]

Civil power means in terms of natural disasters and calmities, they can be called upon only and not to rule the country.

Regards,
Khyber[/QUOTE]

Do u think hat constitutional amendments have left anything good in the constitution??? Anyway the clause that u have highlighted just exist in words. Meanings of the things are changing with the passage of time.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khuram]

Fact is that constitution is not powerful than the power of Army chief.[/QUOTE]

Well this is another minus point of army govt, they amends the consitution that many times that no good things can be applicable. If they want to apply anything from the constituion, they amend it the way they want to amend.

Regards

[QUOTE=Miss_Naqvi]The thread is getting really hot by the timely participation of Impossible, and all other members. The replies are really analytical and descriptive in their approach like Khuram, Khyber and Nour .[/QUOTE]

Thnx 4 appreciation, we ll really love to have u over here wid us.

[QUOTE=Miss_Naqvi]I would like to ask few questions as raised by Javediqbalnizami (Junior Member) although Impossible tried to provide timely answer but its not sufficient. I was one among those who always supported Musharaf's stay in the office. But his recent movements and views as presented in his autobiography changed my perspective regarding his ability to deal affairs. Almost every fact presented in the book is denied by the related personnals, so what is the validity of book? even if you will read the columns now a days written about book round the world are showing him a wrong choice to stay in the office. He has said that his mother and father both won a price for dancing and even he start his morning with music... so are we governed by a muslim ruler? we should peep into the reality and shall get the indication of time. I m also in the favour that Imran Khan should be given a chance to hold office and he will be the best choice for Pakistan.[/QUOTE]

Well again.......i must say , it depend upon situations that how a person respond to different sort of situations. If Musharraf has done a lot many good things for us, then what if he is doing a little bad things too during his regime. Imran Khan is a good option but what would u do with the democratic system that is prevailing in Pakistan? It has strenghtened its roots and u cant change it anyway.

[QUOTE=Miss_Naqvi]I always admired his foriegn policy and so the same now. But what if internal affairs are not handled in the right way...? You can never make your position outside if you r not strong at your home. And he is unable to handle domestic affairs. We can see its worst example in Balochistan, even the rate of crimes is rising very high all over the country. World ranking has provided the fact that its the time when curroption reached its highest in Pakistan even more than any Political government.... do he has an answer to it..? definately not. To govern a country its first requirement to maintain peace and inflation within the reach of a common man.... but its not the case now. Yes political goverments do the same but Army is one we trust them as the most reliable and honest department in Pakistan but their rule has spoiled that image. So its better to give a chance to political tennure for holding affairs, it will help in stabalizing political system in pakistan.

Even statistical malingering in economical survey cant withstand before a lay man even so no question arise for expert opinion. There are few good points about his stay and that is high rate of investment from other countries that provided Pakistan with new resources and helped to reduce poverty.[/QUOTE]

No doubt, Musharaf has done a lot for Pakistan, but people are opposing him coz sometimes we see the darkest side of the picture. So we fail to judge a person. We need to be optimistic and think over the postive things about our other politicians too. But how to think about positive things about those politicians who are openely involved in corruption, etc ???

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]Mr. K. Robertson writes in his Book, "Pakistan Odyssey" P.No.198

"...........In Pakistan Law makers are law breakers........There will be some laws and constitution in paradise but Pakistan is a lawless paradise......."

This is the reason that why we still fall in list of retrogressive countries because neither we have a consolidated constitution which defines the future road-map and nor do we have any destination. we are like a sinking boat and our corrupt politicians have brought this country at the verge of destruction. [/QUOTE]

I agree to this point of yours, army is basically involved in the amenment of constitution. No doubt, Musharraf also amended it.

[QUOTE=Khyber]Thurgood Marshall (1908–1993), U.S. jurist. ones said about constitution,

B]If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a state has no business telling a man, sitting in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch. Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds.[/B]
[/QUOTE]

Yeah general public is obolovian of he politial system. But it is good in a sense coz Pakistani public is mostly illeterate. While others who r literatte can use thier mind to play their role in the political system.

Regards

[QUOTE=Khyber]
Musharaf is duplicating the governance of Attaturk who relienquished all cultural and moral values and adopted some innovative codes of culture. But sister, here we need to realize that cultural oppression never leads to an excellence or peace and progress. if to relinquish your cultural values brings prosperities and helps you in building your progressive image in the world's eye then i think today the turkey would have become the world leader. But neither it became a world leader and nor did it contribute anything to the ummah.

But who can deny the importance of Ottoman Empire which contributed in every realm of muslim's life. it contributed to literautre, culture, values, above all it united the whole ummah at one forum.

Kind Regards,[/QUOTE]

Well its is good that at least, u counted the positive points of Ottoman Empire otherwise i was thinking that optimism has been lost somewhere. Hope Musharraf would be able to excluiude his minus points for the sake of pakistanis.

Regards

@ Miss_Naqvi

So you are against Musharraf for why he told the truth that his father and mother both had won prize in dancing...???

According to you, in this way, we are not living under the rule of a Muslim.

Well,,, But please try to consider some facts of the so called 'glorious' Muslim rule. This is a fact that all the Abbasid Caliphs, except for only two, were the childs of 'kaneezes'... i.e. their mothers were not the legitimate wives of their fathers. Abbasid caliphs used to 'purchase' beautiful women from around different countries and many of those women happened to be expert of dancing etc. also.

Respected Mr. Khyber:

Ottoman Empire had flourished in those periods when Muslim Societies had been declined in the areas of art, literature, culture and values etc. The glorious period of Muslim culture was the early Abbasid era. Abbasid era ended on 1258 when Mangols conquered and destroyed Iraq.

Ottomans have no positive contributions towards the intellectual growth of Muslim Nation. An Egeptian Muslim scholar has written, "had we not the slave of Ottomans then we also would be having many intellectual achievements and Muslim mindset would have to be more progressed and developed than to our contemporary Western mindset."

We were not the slaves of Ottomans ... perhaps thats why we had launched 'Khilafat Movement' in sub-continent with the view to protect Ottoman Khilafat. Arab rulers, on the other hand, had made agreement with Britain for getting freedom from Turky (Ottoman Empire) ... during World War-I.

And Attaturk was the outcome of the grave failure of Ottoman rule. His people had welcomed him. His ideas flopped because he had no clear vision of his own. He was just inspired by the superior Western Culture (Just like Sir Syed also was inspired by the superior Western culture). And there is no valid similarity between the case of Attaturk and Musharraf. Musharraf is only negating the currently prevalent intolerant type attitudes of Muslim societes. He is not wrong in his point of view. If you try to find the roots of intolerant attitudes in Muslim societies ... you would find them in the early sect of Islam known as 'Khawarjities'... And remember that Hazrat Ali (RA) had been killed by an extremist Khawarji person.

Those Khawajities,,, just like our contemporary extremists, considered themselves the most pious Muslims on the face of earth .... obviously more pious even than Hazrat Ali (RA)... They were really 'brave' exactly as per the standard of Taliban type 'bravery'.... Their rigidity in the offer of prayers was perhaps far more than that of Taliban.

Musharraf is only opposing this type of Islam .... whose roots lie in the early Khawarji faith.

And it is nice to see that Imran Khan is getting popularity on this forum. I however want to inform the respected forum members that our people would never elect him. If all the forum members would vote him, still there would be far less chances that his party might win just few seats.

Elections have their own very complicated dynamics. Competent people cannot win this type of elections... Only 'clever' people can win this type of elections.

Secondly Imran is getting popularity on this forum just because respected members have not found any other alternative of Musharraf. In my opinion however, even Imran is not the alternative of Musharrraf... But in my assessment ... he is the best option ... AFTER Musharraf.

Thanks!

@impossible

I have no intension what so ever to insult any Pakistani by the saying that you are thinking in Pakistani way. What I want to pin point is narrow point of views on events the Q? (Do we need Musharaf???) is political one yet most people does not understand politics most of comments her are referred as general comments or historical events . The Q? Here should here must be what the power that is keeping Musharaf in power is
Let me give you some directions
Politics is not the name of getting into power it is that you get your work done here one should understand the concepts of politics which is good and politicking which is bad . Many of you have talked about Mr. NAWAZ you should know it was army general how made the PML(n) at the first place…………… you will get the idea.
To understand the true nature of international politics one must understand factor involved such socio-economics. Geopolitics, culture and so on let me point the most important factor that we lack as nation is out identification.

@ khuram
I see you as person how thinks dynamically but you should consider Islam’s political culture you will get difference what made us what we are what made USA what they are
Here is a BOOK if you can get to it Islam’s political culture by Nasim Ahmad jawed published by oxford

@khyber
you do face issue of identification do not take it hard but it is fact. The link that you have given Pakistan 'is a top failed state this scale is used for economical purpose you should not take it wrong you must understand it context . for you go to this link tell if you want more
[url]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_marapr_2004/countrydetail.php?country=Pakistan[/url]