well Pakistan is no vietnam,afghanistan or iraq! we shouldnt over estimate ourselves but america will also not make the mistake of under estimating one of the top ten armed forces of the world! and i think our geo strategic situation is deterrence enough for usa,an open war with us would mean a third world war and the first nuclear world war! the reason behind the recent so called nato attacks is,in my point of view,completely political!

Thanx! It was a good break...

This other view could be right.am not ruling it out. But as far as i know, we had enough troops on our Western border. Khair, if what ur saying is correct, we have one more reason to be worried. Lesser troops on our eastern side means India is free to do as it pleases. And this is what i have been saying all along too. USA will seldom attack directly. It will use India to do so. Since USA is stretched too thin economically, it will use a proxy war here.

Showing muscle to US? Yeah we should. Definitely. It will baffle US in the end. But a war with US is VERY LIKELY We should be ready to face some consequences although in the end US will have to leave tarnished.

There is absolutely nothing new about this discussion. This attack even, was far from a shocker to many.
I mentioned in my thread a week ago ' an email written to cyril almeida ' how this attack was deliberate if u refer to it.

I will suggest respected members to visit this link www. Infowars.com
Also for ur knowledge, search LibertyTruthJustice channel on Youtube where you will find views of Webster Tarpley who is pretty authentic in my view. You will find discussion here on many contemporary issues from Americans who are 'aware'. Highly recommended.

As for the rest, as we all are predicting one thing or another. here are a few things id like to say:

1- there is no threat of a nuclear war or thirld world war in the near future. The only case where america will seek a war leave alone world war is when the very root of its super power status are threatened and it needs the war for the very survival of it as a nation.

2- what i see at the moment is new alliances being forged and some alliances being re-aligned. In its essence u can say that the New World Order its taking its shape.

3- When America exhausts all possible dialogue and it fails to achieve its objectives, yes then and only then will America resort to this extreme step to initiate the world war, which in that very situation, will need nothing more than a spark(an assassination e.g).

4- At this moment a very serious diplomatic war is in progress behind the scenes especially in Pak-US relations.
I think America has lost its Plan-A which was to weaken Pakistan and control rest of the region from A-tan and Pak. It can no longer excercise this option because of the stupidity of the nato attack, which was nothing more than it being a Bully.

5- now is the time for Plan B, which has been in place for a FEW YEARs. Usa propping up India not only to counter China's growing influence. It was never just for China. PLan B is all about USA making its virtual headquarters in India.
Just imagine, our enemy is going to be training our neighbors Army, which already has estranged relations and no brotherly relations with us contrary to popular belief. This past year u can already see its fall out, with increased skirmishes between the two armies.

6- most important role is going to be played by two countries here. Russia and China.
Its in best interest of Russia to fully support Pakistan if it wants to even survive. Even though we started on the wrong foot, Pak can play a life saving role in Russia's economic revival.

7- yes, nato/usa can destroy completely and bomb entire Pak airforce in 24hours if we were to stand alone and have an open war with usa which is ridiculous to even say out loud. It will never happen, Pak's destruction means the end of China and Russia, which ALSO will never happen, not to mention the start of another colonisation era, which also is not going to happen in the near future.

8- in the end, il say that yes, at the moment, the very survival of Pakistan is under severe threat. Pakistan, for the world, for USA is like the Golden Bird, sonay ki chirya.
Everyone wants and needs Pakistan, even Iran.

The bravery behind Iran is its people , who are completely UNITED behind its Government especially Leadership.

We, Pakistani's need the same in the form of Imran Khan. He's the dark horse the whole country is going to bet on, i can promise you that. He has the traits to unite the People behind him. If you still cant see it, open your eyes.
The nawaz zardari and rest family parties are spineless people Who can never ever take a stand against the enemies because they have their own vested interests. they cant afford to annot America.
And for that very reason, il WHISPER in your ears, that the army and intelligentsia, are more than pinning their hopes on Imrans complete win

God bless Pakistan and its People. Ameen!

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My Lord! Vouchsafe me wisdom and unite me to the righteous [The Poets-26 Verse 83]

Well guys,
Our national security doctrine is failing as it is managed only by the Military, in particular THE MIGHTY ARMY and the civilian side is not allowed to get into the domains of Foreign Policy and National Security.
How come these domains can be competent when guided by those who have no idea of how the civilian dynamics work.
The back firing of our current foreign policy, its implications on Pakistan and our relative position in the world arena are glaring examples of this fact. We have become much weaker by the pursuit of this flawed doctrine. We have internal instability, the economy has grown weak and even our friends do not trust us anymore. I must say that we even do not trust ourselves any more due to this recipie of disastor.
It is time that we must put our house in order. Every institution must do what it is suppose to do.
As far as the question of confrontation with the US is concerned, we must admit that to challenge the US in these circumstance would be suicide. What we have in military hardware is mostly American and that also is given to us once it became obsolete for the US.
In case of confrontation they would cut us into pieces like carrots.
We have to deal with the situation with tact and strategy rather than emotions.
We need to grow strong economically, technologically, politically and institutionally.
Technology fights technology (LOHA LOHAY KO KATTA HAI).
Be composed and analyse the real reasons behind this incidence. If we cut the root causes we may be able to live as a deginified nation, rest we would meet such shameful fates over and over again. Today it is America, tomorrow it will be India or may be China, Challenging our sovereignty.
We should leave the policy of denial and start making ourselves invincible.

Peace

__________________
Neest Dar Khushk Wa Tar-e-Besha'ay Mann Kotahi
Choob-e-Har Nakhl Ka Mimbar Na Shawad, Dar Kunam

Us can never be assumed, it has always provided the world with panic attacks as wellas the territorial. U.s can never afford to loose the puppetic state,unfortunately its ours, yet never allow to let pakistan stand as its never going to be in its interest. Us always needs a reason to deploy troops on other countries especially who can threaten its aim. Pakistan,s struggle in itself is now making the youth aware of the rights and wrongs, this might be the reason to increase the worry for u.s. Such worries strenghten the hawks[us] grip towards its prey[pakistan].
So, the attacks might provoke pakistan and press the red button that u.s wants to be pressed so it cut encounter its will with a clean collar defending that they never wanted to fight against pak but when it comes to their soveriegnty they cant step back..
" one sure thing is that u.s never explains its personal benefits or interests, all us wars are namely for the cause of protection which gives them an option to increase influence and yet live clean handed!

I do not believe that US will give an invitation-card of war to Pakistan in the prevailing situation. Our politicians did not show any hard hand in the recent past, but America know the address of corridors of power in Pakistan, very well. A timely move taken by COAS of controlling aggression on west border, plus vacating the Shamsi air base. As far as, Drone/ NATO attacks are concerned, America always kept Muslims, esp Pakistanis, in a state of aggression. That policy worked for them every time. They provoke people's agitation against their Goverments in the name of Dictatorship, Human rights, Women rights etc etc, like we saw in Arab-Africa recently. They are trying to make things tougher for the Government and Military. Memogate scandal in another example.

War on terror is the product of Capitalism. The people of America live a luxurious life on the blood of innocent Humanity. They are Israelis responsible for all this. The formulae is the old one "Divide and rule".

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Left is Right

What happened with our checkposts was nothing,the worse sitution is yet to come ,because now ISAF and NATO are moving their troops in areas close to our borders as a preparation of desicive operation against insurgents with in or even out side A-TAN.During that operation ,they will definitely going to attack so called "sancutries" of taliban in pakistan,either by arial attack or even boots on the grounds in worse cases.its going to happen sooner or later because west and also A-TAN,are of the view that Pak is harboring terrorist(as mentioned by Afghan president in his yesterday speech in Bon),because this is the most fiscible excuse they can give for their failure.
so we have to prepare for this on diplomatic front from today,the role of Iran ,China and to some extent Russia is of great importance.
But USA is now also encircling China from Asia pacific region,so it will not be easy for China to come to our support as China was used to do it.but still China cant afford Pakistan to become humble prey of USA.
so we also have to build self reliance in econmy , stability in political scenario as well along with increase diplomatic efforts to gather world support.

There is no possibility of a war with the United States any time in the future. They are already getting a beating in Afghanistan and are concerned about Iran. A war against Pakistan cannot be won, considering the fact that Russia and China would step in not because they are "friends" of Pakistan, but because they cannot let US influence grow in the region. So no need to worry about external affairs when our nation is internally plagued.

The discussion under debate is worth putting more information to it.
I'm making my contribution to the same, hoping all will benefit from it...

In the first place, here are some reason which justify Pakistan's claim that the NATO attack was an "unprovoked act of blatant aggression" with reference to the comprehensive details given by Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Major General Ishfaque Nadeem on recent Tuesday.

• A checkpost code-named came under attack at around 15 to 30 minutes after the midnight, and a near-by check post code-named Boulder, responded with 12.7 mm anti-aircraft weapons and mortars after the volcano checkpost came under attack from gunship helicopters.

• Two posts were located at a place where there has been a cross-border infiltration of militants from Afghanistan. The militants attacks continued even after the installation of the checkposts. Settled villages were two-three kilometers away from the posts themselves were about 300-400 meters inside Pakistan borders.

So this proves the attack could not be mistaken for any sanctuaries of militants because the other side had been provided all the available information about the number of Pakistani posts and their locations.
The men on the checkposts were uninformed and the posts were well-defined. (Pakistan Army got the impression that NATO was monitoring the transmissions that night and knew that they had hit the volcano checkpost).

• By 1 am all channels of communication with other side were activated and the helicopters were pulled back. But as a Pakistani troop moved from one post to the other to assess the damage and aid the injured, the helicopters reappeared and pinned them down. Some 26 artillery air-bursts were fired by the Pakistani side and the engagement lasted until 02:15 am.

• There was misleading information being provided to the Pakistan Military. Just before the attack, a Pakistani officer at the regional tactical center was informed by an American sergeant that their special forces had received fire from Gora Pai- located some 15 kms away from Volcano- which had been hit in retaliation. Whereas according to DGMO Pakistan did not initiate any firing at any point that night.

• All SOPs were violated.

Note: Standard Operating Procedures exists in the border co-ordination mechanism that entails sharing of information on impending operations in advance, particularly if these operations come within two kilometers of the border; to communicate if one side comes under fire with the responsibility to take action from the country where the attack originated; and cessation of fire when communication established.

• Besides, helicopters intruded into Pakistani airspace on an intermittent basis, supporting jets did not enter Pakistani airspace.

Now let us understand here as asked by you "why the NATO attacked Pakistan?"


Obama's administration wants to announce a complete withdrawal from war in Afghanistan. It has already announced the withdrawal though, as many troops have been taken out of A-tan already, and many others are to be taken out in Dec and in future hence a complete evacuation by 2014. As we know, 86% of the voters of Democrat party (Obama's party) and 67% of the Republican Party (the opposition) want a quick withdrawal from Afghan war. So, before Obama goes to the polls for coming election, he has to take out a bulk of troops from A-tan. Then why such attack when Bonn Conference was just round the corner and without Pakistan's co-operation any progress on the Afghanistan's matter was not possible?

The NATO attack actually took place as the result of a fall-out of the conflict going on between the White House and the Pentagon which is aligned with neocons, Indian and Israeli lobbyists.
India and Israel do not want the withdrawal. Israel wants to chastise Iran as well as wants the Pakistan's nuclear assets and nuclear program to come under the watchful eye of the western countries through IIA, or whatever.
Besides, security contractors, the US military and the people engaged in narcotics trade in Afghanistan do not want withdrawal also.
More than a hundred thousand security contracts are presently working in A-tan.
The US military knows that their budget will be reduced as soon as the withdrawal is announced. Narcotics trade is going on at a large scale in Afghanistan.
So these are some complex factors, that do not want withdrawal at all which has led to the NATO attack.
Correct me if I am wrong friends.

Now, talking about the possibility of Pakistan's war with the US...

I completely concur with the views of some of my friends that there is no possibility of war between Pakistan and the US. I will add more to the same...

The USA has already suffered an abject defeat at the hands of Afghan Taliban. In addition, the war in Afghanistan is an irregular warfare and if continued it can travel across the borders.
With already the issues of Arab world and the Cairo, Libyan and Syrian issue in the pipeline for the settlement, it should not be recommendable for the US to open another front with Pakistan. Besides, Pakistan is unlike Iraq or Afghanistan or any other country. If the US attacks Pakistan, the whole region will turn into an uncontrollable inferno. And the US is aware of these incontrovertible facts. Therefore it cannot even think of any war with Pakistan presently. Instead it plans to install India as a proxy power in Afghanistan...

Pakistan is eminently in a perfect position to get its demand fulfilled by the US... The former for sure will place conditions before the the later before engaging in any co-operation in future.
What demands should Pakistan make to the US as it is a very conducive time to get them fulfilled, yet remains to be seen...

Regards

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Real richness is that you are so expensive that no one can buy your character.

@azeegum
can you explain it in detail that how this NATO attack would serve for Pentagon?
Infact the question is ..if Obama wants withdrawl then who is going to stop him? isn't he in a position to deal calmly with Pakistan and on the other side he can draw his troops?
I want your comments..
I know this attack on Pakistan can serve for Pentagon but for how many days they can retain this strategy to stay here in Afghanistan?
isn't it seem illegical that Pentagone is showing disloyality to its country?

Please comment...

Regards