I never said to absolve anyone. I just replied to a brother who I thought was defending Musharaf for not being alone in his crimes. We all know how some dictator-engineered political parties helped him in his heinous crimes. I just want if not all then at least punish the chief of culprits in order to start the process gradually. All wrong-doers should be brought to book for sure.
I never emphasizedd that democratic governments has done nothing or everything. I always say just give some time to democracy 5 years are not sufficient to wash the mess of dictator. Take the first democratic 5 years of Pakistan from 1973 to 1977. Those gave you:
1) An All-agreed constitution.
2) Equal rights to women in Civil Service.
3) Leadership of Islamic world.
4) Labour laws.
5) Right to participate in state affairs through election process.
6) Nuclear power.
7) A door to an independent foreign policy although the dictator closed it again.
and much more...
Some more things in other quasi short regimes of democratic type:
1) Missile technology.
2) SAP programe.
3) POLIO eradication programe.
4) LHV programe.
5) Nuke tests.
etc..
And some plausible doings of this recent democratic governemnt:
1) evacuation of Shamsi airbase.
2) stteling terms on NATO supply.
3) Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline.
4) Gawadar port agreement with China.
5) successful operation in Sawat against terrorists.
6) restoration of Judiciary.
etc..
I know these are not enough much needs to be done. But still these are far more creditable than any dictator's regime.

Agreed! Infact many foreign forces are involved in destabilizing the country and they have their own axes to grind and we all are well aware of it. And I personally believe that when a country is strong no one can exploit her, these are the weaknesses which give others the chance to take advantage and fulfill their motives.

Agreed! But not only the mess created by the dictators but theirs own too

Khair ab yeh keh kar bhi aap thori si ziadati kar rahi hain kay dictators nay kuch nahi kiya thora sa contribution unka bhi hai country kay progress aur growth main. Pakistan was termed as Asian Tiger in 1960s and that was the Martial Law period. Dams were constructed, industries flourished etc.
Both have pros and cons. We are not at all to compare Martial Law and Democratic regimes obviously democracy if its true is the best form of government but for that the democratic governments have to show something some economic growth some industrial growth and have to solve national issues as well.

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When you really want something, the whole universe conspires in helping you achieve it!!!

brother! democracy is the only solution of these increasing problems, it is not good to say that democracy is bad but democracy is a formula..
It says government by the people, from the people and for the people. There is nothing wrong with democratic system the thing really matter is administrators, we must give our vote to the person who not only capable of ruling a state but also possess quality of tackling extreme pressure by the opponents. Anyways, democracy is not bad. Wherever there is democracy nation will flourish and country will get stronger just need best aministration.
one thing... you cant change 18 carore minds change comes from the upper class to lower..

I agree with you and appreciate your views. But people must be very cautious while giving their votes because their votes are very precious in choosing the one who can really work for the society. The past rulers have been filling their pockets with the public money. They go back on their promises once they get elected. So, democracy will only flourish if the right person is chosen by the masses.

If democracy is the only solution to our problems there would not have been such dimay and hopelessness that we see around us today.
If democracy is right then the bill that French passed regarding ban on Hijab is also correct and should be implemented. Another recently passed decree of the French government giving legal cover to gay marriages should be consider lawful then. In our constitution, Article 248 regarding the immunity of the President makes him above law which our religion and even common sense does not permit. St. Augustine said, "An unjust law is no law at all".
There is no difference between these politicians or dictators as both have committed serious crimes against the state organizations be it the media houses or the judiciary. China is not a democratic state: it is a Communist state. Still it is flourishing and growing at a rapid pace. A balanced approach in this regard is necessary. However, i still believe, the system that made the blood thirsty Arab into one, is the best remedy to all our miseries and problems.

[QUOTE=sabahatbhutta;588740]Dear can you name any one such incident as Lal Masjid massacre, killing of Akbar Bugti, Missing persons trauma etc. in a democratic regime? On what grounds you are saying that Martial law is better than democracy?? Was there no starvation, unemployment, corruption in Musharafr era? I think you should read some newspapers and books to update your information.

dear , first of all, thanks for this ''mashwara muft''. secondly, yes! i need and i know that . but i feel you read newspapers/books, yet you're unable to know much.
Here i'm going to explain my point of view about Gen (R) Musharraf. kindly keep in mind, i'm not supporter of any one, not of Musharraf as well.

MUSHARRAF & BALOCHISTAN:
Balochistan men ab tk 5 revolts ho chukee hain. 5th and severe one was started in 2000-04 and is in progress day by day till date.BLA nay 2000 sy onwards bomb explosions start kr deay thay. later on, Meer balach murree and Akbar khan Bugti (2004) nay 15 points agenda pesh kea aur balochistan k resources pr baloch leaders k right ko tasleem krnay ko kaha.
At one side, lashkar-e-balochistan, baloch tiger liberation and baloch liberation army were carrying out their tasks,and at other side, pak.military and its high ranked officials were being attacked i.e rocket attack on helicopter which injured Maj.Gen FC and IG FC, followed by direct attack on heli carrying then chief of army staff Gen Musharraf at kohlo. Now, pak military decided to take strict action against all, and achieved its objective at the cost of 7-10 officers and 55-65 soldiers.
I want to ask why balochistan was turning to be in full opposition against state? answer is: because all of their resources were captured and being spend on other provinces' development, not returning a single penny to original owners. they bear it for long time- in the same way east pakistan bore- but at last baloch people were forced to be engaged in 5th revolt against state. ab yh btaen sis k '' had Musharraf ruled this country and balochistan since independence??'' then why we blame alone Musharraf for Akbar KHAN death, while it includes multiple factors/people/governments??
I personally feel that all governments, either military or civilian, are equally responsible for this act, not Musharraf alone! aghas-e-haqooq-e-balochistan package ka step,jis ka idea hmen azadi k 65 sal bd aya hai, agr pehlay ksi government nay lea hota to aj situation yh hotee?

Musharraf, i hope you know, was a general, a military general, having vast experience and, above all, he was part of SSG-most strict and disciplined wing of military- which perform most important military operations in the best interest of their commanding officers and finally for the state.

Historically, have a look at this

''we answered the call of duty as disciplined, loyal and dedicated members of the Armed Forces of India...our loyalties are to the nation, the armed forces to which we belong, the uniforms we wear and to the troops we command...",

a statement issued by Indian military after they faced severe criticism for the Operation Blue Star (1984) in Golden temple, Amritsar, India.

If you had little bit knowledge of military mind-set and operational strategy, then you will come to know that military knows only one thing, and that is ''the interest of state''. ap k khyal men aik general jis ke age 60 year ho, experience 35-40 years ka ho aur 18 years ke age sy us nay apnay watan k aik aik tukray ke hifazat ke qasam kha rakhee ho, wo ap k balochistan ko separate hota dekh skta tha???
ok maan lea this general (Musharaf) made blunder! then, tell me about the fate of other officers which include local commanding officers, core commander, DG operations??? aik general to apnay officers ke advice per e act krta hai according to demand of the situation.
Secondly, kia musharraf sb nay ex-president Farooq Laghari ke 100 acre zameen per sy bugti tribe k illegal capture ko khatm krwany k leay ya apnee ksi personal reason ke wja sy itna big step uthaya tha???
NO ! there was only one motive behind and that was ''The best interest of the STATE of Islamic Republic of Pakistan''. dunya ka koi b general hota woh yei krta jo Musharraf nay kea.
ab es Democratic govt nay knsa teer mar lea hai? had they satisfied sons of Akbar Khan Bugti. me to aj b un ke speeches me es democracy aur state k khelaf e baten suntee hon.
so, state within state is not acceptable to any one especially military.

LAL MASJID and Musharraf government:
i can't understand why suicide attacks' rate increased after this tragedy?
wahan per logo ko deen ka ilm dea ja ra tha ya kch state k khelaf talibans ke type ka jihad sikhaya ja ra tha? aur wo to deen ka elm seekh rhay thay ye achanak itna aslaa, gola barood?? brutal killing of a Let. Col, one day before full fledged commando operation, was surprise for me!

MISSING PERSONS: yes! musharraf k time me ho rhay thay. wo to ab b ho ray hain, ni ho rhay to btaen? i don't know why and who is behind this brutal act!


you forgot!
DRONE ATTACKS:
Musharraf had accepted that he permitted for such attacks, but it is fifth year since he left Pakistan, returned now and jailed, yet this democracy could never stop it. is it an act or a part of legislation of Pakistan that drone attacks were started by Musharraf and will only be stoped by him??

MEMOGATE scandel, OSAMA death (an extreme type violation of Pakistan territory), religious killings (hundreds of innocent minorities died and were forced out of Pakistan including hindus). All these are due to ex military ruler
or due to this so called the nascent democracy???
i'm not against democracy and how i can be, when my religion 'Islam' supports it. But i'm totally against all these experienced corrupt leaders who rule us in the name of democracy; therefore, i prefer a general who, at least, neither makes money nor fills his own pocket; rather, he makes us economically strong and rich, not a beggar.
Fresh example is of R.R (Raja Rental) jino nay aik to state ko 22 crore ka injection lgaya aur pher 3 mah k leay, as a gift, wazart-e-uzma per b brajman rhay. Aj jb Musharaf jail me hai, to media k aik common reporter sy lay kr bray bray naqad/ anchor b un per tanqeed frma rhay hain. me pochti hon k aesee khulay aam aur tabar-tor tanqeed, qanoon ke baladasti ke bat krnay ke himt tb kahan rfoo chakar ho jatee hai jb baat atee hai TALIBAN ke, Religious extremist organizations k heads ke aur target killers ke? tb yh log khul k q ni boltay??
reason: zada bolen gay to aik goli milay gee, jo brdasht ni ho gee.
Miss, you asked me to read newspapers and here it is, 'newspapers' say that this government was the most corrupt of all, and according to reports of transparency international Pakistan became 33rd most corrupt country, while it was at 44th position a short while ago.
only thing, one can expect, is hope. A hope that these old faces rulers, jamhoriat k thekaydar, get replaced with some one new and better.
(no offense meant to any honorable member, moderator or visitor, if some one feels, then i'm whole heartily sorry .

Quote:

If you had little bit knowledge of military mind-set and operational strategy, then you will come to know that military knows only one thing, and that is ''the interest of state''. ap k khyal men aik general jis ke age 60 year ho, experience 35-40 years ka ho aur 18 years ke age sy us nay apnay watan k aik aik tukray ke hifazat ke qasam kha rakhee ho, wo ap k balochistan ko separate hota dekh skta tha???

i agreed on the time of joining, he called God to witness, than why he sent his masses to U.s for execution, why he gave his air bases to u.s military?. please post views on the AAfia siddique...

did you forget the tragedy of 12th May , how many people killed on that day?
and surely you had watched press conference of dictator he said " my people are fighting in Karachi today... and you are adding insult to injury of those corpse...

Quote:

If you had little bit knowledge of military mind-set and operational strategy

yes i have little knowledge about military commander, he just know give the orders and get them obey. Musharaf was a dog in the manager, he had not taken step to amelioration of Pakistan..

he paved the way for U.s to enter our Tertiary, drone attacks are his blessing, energy crisis, his gift , riots , extremism, terrorism, and suicide attacks are his after shocks,

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LOVE all, TRUST a few, do WRONG to none......

I respect your views about military commander. But do you have any justification that our post-musharraf so-called democractic leadership failed to deal with drone attacks. one can say that they actually failed. people have faced the worst era of super-numerous crises under the umbrella of DEMOCRACY. I don't think this is about musharaf. It was just that musharraf halted the ways of corrupt politicians burglars, landlords etc..... which made them furious and they had take the cover of Democracy for their survival the idea which was mostly appraised by the west.

[B]who decided to take part in war on terror ? tell me his manifesto please, what he wanted to do? was there any long term project to produce electricity? why he did not pay heed on Iran Pakistan gas pipeline ? he just managed the lunch, he had not any policy for dinner. it is time our armed forces realized in order to regain their place in hearts of our people they should no longer be taking upon themselves the tasks that do not belong to them.their place in their barracks or in battlefields should there be any aggression against their country. they should not be waging war against their own people. they should leave political governance to the elected civilians in accordance with the underlying spirit of our constitution..
democracy is not stable yet thus it is not working properly here. let it to be stable surely we will get fruit of it ... further do read post of sabahatbhutta she explained very well what Democratic govt had done in past five years ...

stay blessed

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LOVE all, TRUST a few, do WRONG to none......

Dear if you know the history then you must know that many Baloch sardars have been hanged on account of treason in dictator's rules earlier. 15 points of Akbar Bugti were not as harsh as 6 points of Mengal, I wonder he has not been bombed still. Is Gen. Kayani less patriotic than Musharraf?

Who was possessing these resources and due rights of Baloch people? Dear Democarcy merely ruled for 10 years in the country. Dictators are responsible for this state of country.

Ye idea bhi democratic government ko hee aya....

Dear this disciplined and brave SSG commando was about to be court martialed on account of running away pretending to be sick at the time of 1965 war. Being a SSG commando does not guarantee bravery and discipline.

This is not about Chaah sakta hai ya nahe.. Its about real competency to deal the situation. A soldier is taught to destroy how can he build a nation? Military mind-set is about dealing in the state of war not in peace. A Military ruler in order to ligitimize his rule produces a situation of chaos and war.
History speaks, our 930000 soldiers surrendered in West pakistan out of bravery? I would say it a blunder on side of Generals to put soldiers in such state of suicide. It was a deomcratic ruler who brought them back to freedom.

Yes I agree,, Duniya ka koi bhi general hota wo yehi karta. Jamhori logh kabi aisa kar he nahe skty ky k Ex-governor of a province ko murder kr dyn on charges of treason. Akbar Bugti was the person who in Baloch Jirga stood grounds to annex Balochistan with Pakistan.

Democratic governemnt ny teer hee mara hai k Akbar Bugti ka sons ki mukhalfat k bawajood unhe murder nhe kr diya like Akbar Bugti.

So you want to say that Lal Masjid operation was a revenge of the brutal killing of Lt. COL?????

Ab ho rahy hain to atleast they are being reported. At least their families are getting chance to know about their where abouts.
Yes these should be stopped immediately. But at least you should catch the sinner who initiated those. Dear Musharaf made the agreement as head of state you can not tear his agreements apart in seconds.

Dear these all staretd in Musharaf regime. Memogate is a hollow box in my opinion it was a conspiracy against democracy which failed miserably. It has no worth.

I think you are kidding
Don't you know about the wealth and status of Gen. Musharaf?? Do read about his Chakk Shehzad farm house.

Hope is all we need.