Humanity

[maiji]

Hi dudes.... there is one thing i wanna discuss today with you that think from the basin of your heart that what we have done for ourself. we have done each and every thing for the self that reside with us but nay with the self which is our. I further open the matter that each and every tickle of time we are wasting in the matters of world , but , in fact , we are not giving particular attention to the matters of mind, which indeed, are related to the mental relax and are the works that cure humanity. Allah has said in Quran that you must cure humanity and this job yields more than preying the God. So plz do give your attention to the works that may benefit the HUMANITY. REGARDS

[Concerned]

Well its really nice to have ppl like you sayin' a lot of good things. But just a few additions or alterations to what u stated above. No offense intended brother but just a few points for u to ponder upon.

1. Does we really waste times in the matters of the world or are they imp. too.
Well I totally agree with u that we don't give proper attention towards matters of mind to cure humanity. But I just wanted to say that matters of world are also important.
2. What does it mean by sayin' matters of mind for relaxing of mind and cure of humanity.
Well I think mind can relax by sleeping as well but we have to relax our souls or most appropriately satisfying our soul.
And curing of humanity, I think its better to say curing of the humans by humanity. For that we require to analyze the factors which are responsible for the spiritual maladies of the humans. And yes you are 100% right that we have to cure these with humanity.

What do ya think, I just wanted to say these to you because you think gr8 and hope that u will act gr8ly too. I just wanted to say try to analyze the matters a little deeply with a bit of philosophy and then u will know the true spirit of learning and u will also enjoy learning and it will increase ur mind's ability of analysis. well its a general advice for all infact, that please try to learn the way to think and analyze.

And I feel that by posting this message of gr8 concern you have shown ur true patriotism and true love for well-being of the huamns. So I just wanted to say this to all ppl thinking like you that thinking good is not enough, try to develop analytical thinking so that you should be able to find the remedies.
So a few topics for u to think, well just think in the way ur mind wants to think.
1. What's logic and does everything requires a logic or not. What is abstract art. Does abstract art has a meaning?
2.where do thoughts come 4m actually, brain, heart, spirit, senses, emotions, experiences, where. Just think there is no single correct answer for this but it will just enhance ur thinkin' skills. And yes do post ur replies, everyone is invited.
Well I can give more topics but I want to see the response first.
And one last thing, why I have posted this type of message here, the reason behind this is that I am an active member of the philosophy community of Orkut. I am really disappointed to see that more than 99% of the ppl are Indians and no Pakistani there. This community is a must for all those who want to develop thinkin skills. just go and have a look, what they are discussing, how they are discussing, its just a beautiful community. Also another community that is Brainteasers, also please do have a look.

[Sohail Shuja]

Salaam,

@ Maiji
Salute dude! I also think he way you do. Serving humanity is better and much weighted in Islam than preying. For making urself able to b appropriate in the disposal of these thoughts in terms of action and also at the right time requires a rational sense, which can no better b cultivated than by pondering under the vast empirical canopy of a humane theology.
I am quite hopeful that u will not only do as, but also will propagate this basic vibe to the rest of the humans u can, and I am equally optimistic that the people in response will also ponder, at least for once and may they do in accord, as well (Aamin). Yet, to do better with humans of world and our spirit, in the true sense, has to be done in this world......so, its also a worldly affair, which is rather immaterial at its core concern. Knowledge definitely widens the scope of thought and sharpens the vision of reason. Do also try to differentiate between knowledge and information. Try your best to convert your optimism into a reality, in this world, and may u enjoy the yield in the world and hereafter.

@ Concerned
"Every one has to play his part"...... and necessarily not only by the philosophers alone, and essentially, not even apart. Hope u get some more good friends. I don't understand whether its a philosophical question or not but sometimes i wonder tht does it require a philosophically literate person to be a gr8 philosopher ? Can philosophy be a framed and an independent body of knowledge or does it exist incorporated with almost every sort of it ? Does a critical analysis of such and such will lead us to a solution of any problem? and is there any logical reason for that ?
I am really sorry that i couldn't solve any of your problems, but to add a couple of mine as well

btw,

thinking good is not enough, try to develop analytical thinking so that you should be able to find the remedies.

undoubtedly an agreeable fact.

Take care

[Concerned]

@ Sohail Shuja
Sir here is my explanation,
"Can a person be intellect without having a philosophically literate mind" .
If u want a detailed explanation. plz see my post below.
just think on this and even then if u believe that I intended to hurt Mr. Maiji... Then I am sorry 4m the depth of my heart. i didn't intended it. All I wanted to say was in good faith.

@Maiji
Sir I don't wanted to hurt u. that's why I said in my post:

I feel that by posting this message of gr8 concern you have shown ur true patriotism and true love for well-being of the huamns

I just wanted to say these to you because you think gr8 and hope that u will act gr8ly too. I just wanted to say try to analyze the matters a little deeply with a bit of philosophy and then u will know the true spirit of learning and u will also enjoy learning and it will increase ur mind's ability of analysis. well its a general advice for all infact, that please try to learn the way to think and analyze.

So a few topics for u to think, well just think in the way ur mind wants to think.
1. What's logic and does everything requires a logic or not. What is abstract art. Does abstract art has a meaning?
2.where do thoughts come 4m actually, brain, heart, spirit, senses, emotions, experiences, where. Just think there is no single correct answer for this but it will just enhance ur thinkin' skills. And yes do post ur replies, everyone is invited.

I took u as my brother, as a true friend and wanted to make u think in that way. Just if u want any further explanation see my post below. But if u are hurt in any way, I am sorry, really from the bottom of my heart. I never had any intentions of hurting u, all was said in a good faith. So plz if u are hurt, forgive me for that... And I think u are really an optimistic person as written in ur profile, so I think u will get the good things out of that.

Regards
An over-concerned person...

[Concerned]

"Every one has to play his part"...... and necessarily not only by the philosophers alone, and essentially, not even apart.
Well where have I said that no one has to play its part and only the philosophers are to play there parts. I said everyone should have a good philosophical mind and good analyzing vision. I say this because we don't analyze even our religion correctly. We don't analyze matters and we just accept what other ppl say. "This acceptance or non-acceptance of ideas in our so called sphere of self-created logic, without proper understanding is the cause of our ignorance" In simple words we are not accepting or rejecting any idea which are against our principles and self-ideologies. So just I wanted to say that all of ur basic theme was good, infact very true and right 4m the heart but I wanted to point towards 2 points which I thought need a bit of clarifing. One that is matters of the world really a waste of time and secondly, relaxation of mind is not that imp as imp is the satisfaction of soul.

Hope u get some more good friends.
Well 4m where do ya get I don't have good friends. Actually, this what u just said was ur opinion without proper analyzing and u jumped to the conclusion and that's what I was saying. Stop jumping to conclusions without proper judgements. I am sorry but U got that absolutely wrong. But then again u are right. Coz good friends are really rare in this world and they are those who tell u about your weaknesses.

I don't understand whether its a philosophical question or not but sometimes i wonder tht does it require a philosophically literate person to be a gr8 philosopher?
Every question which involves thinking is a philosophical question. Even this is a philosophy that "columbus discovered America". As far as the philosophical intellect is concerned, the answer to the question is "NO" and this was the whole theme of my post. If u tried to analyze I said, everyone should have good analytical and philosophical ideas and not just ideas taken by someone else and then accepting it without our own judgements. I agree that this was his ideas but I wanted to have a few alterations and modifications in it. And I really appreciate that you didn't accept my views, that is what I want to say, first analyze the things and then try to give opinions or take actions. and just don't believe anyone coz he said something that matches your ideologies, try to analyze matters from all angles. Do u think that philosophy(which is nothing but just we think) is not important for a doctor, engineer, even NGO's, scientists, social workers, and even the lay men. Now by saying this I mean, "Can a person be intellect without having a philosophically literate mind" This was the theme of my post..

Can philosophy be a framed and an independent body of knowledge or does it exist incorporated with almost every sort of it ?
A brilliant question and my slougan - now for quite sometime.
Well 4 this first check the few words which wikipedia has to say: "Philosophy is the academic discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic). The word itself is of Greek origin: φιλοσοφία (philosophía) is a compound of φίλος (phílos: friend, or lover) and σοφία (sophía: wisdom).
Now tell me is there anything which is out of the scope of philosophy (even emotions are discussed in philosophy mostly). And philosopher is the one who is a lover of wisdom. Now I want to say that we study science, linguistics, religion, p.studies, Why don;t we study philosophy, which make us think in every field and analyze the facts. Infact, religion, philosophy, ethics, law, etc shud be taught from nursery to F.Sc atleast. These disciplines had been the reason for the success of the great muslim scientists and great leader like Tipu sultan, etc. The west have taken these 4m us, infact we are not giving ourselves these and that's why we create only Professional machines and not Humans, just accepting or memorizing things without having any understanding of whatsoever.

Does a critical analysis of such and such will lead us to a solution of any problem? and is there any logical reason for that ?
Yes, for sure. Infact all the solutions to all the problems are/were thought and where there is thinking, it is philosophy.
Well, in science philosophy is the hypothesis on which we have our logical experiments(again philosophy) are based and then we infer a theory from it(again philosophy). So how can we say that philosophy is not there. and that it don't give us solutions. Infact it can give the solutions to all the problems of Pakistan, well can't believe..... here, it is how! If we understand the true philosophy behind our religion we will implement our religion and implementation of true Islam through education to all parts of Pakistan is the solution to all our problems.
In arts philosophy is the idea on the basis of which an artwork is created and whether that idea was logical or abstract, it comes in the domain of philosophy.
If philosophy is covering the code of life, it is called Religion. And so many others.

I am really sorry that i couldn't solve any of your problems, but to add a couple of mine as well.
Well I am always grateful to those who add problems for u coz they make u think and thinking better is living better. infact this interaction is the key which will make us better and better and that I am thankful to you. Plz always contradict in good faith and u will be better and the person to whom you will contradict will get better too.

Any contradictions and any questions are always welcomed...
Regards
An over-concerned Person....

[Sohail Shuja]

Salaam,
@ Concerned
A Salute to u too yaar, and i m really very sorry that i couldn't mention it for u separately in my earlier post. Well, with all the due respects by having no doubts about your good faith (not even before I could mention this); first of all, i feel a dire need to clear some points :

1)When I say that : "hope u get some more good friends",
means :
Hope=optimism
u= you
get=have
some=few
more=increased
good=noble
friends=well-wishers.

If the word "more" means an increase in the existing value, then never could my statement imply that presently, you don't have any Friends or Good Friends or Best Friends etc. Can I ever say this ? No sir, not me......! I am really sorry if my statement hurt u. All I wanted was to wish you well, as per your interest in the subject and at the orkut communities, and the very subject of the discussion i.e Humanity.

2)

I wanted to point towards 2 points which I thought need a bit of clarifing. One that is matters of the world really a waste of time and secondly, relaxation of mind is not that imp as imp is the satisfaction of soul.

Very right. Now just compare it with the statement (in reply to Meiji) of my earlier post, i.e.

Yet, to do better with humans of world and our spirit, in the true sense, has to be done in this world......so, its also a worldly affair, which is rather immaterial at its core concern.

.

Now, please do inform me if you find any refutation of the ideology.

3)

As far as the philosophical intellect is concerned, the answer to the question is "NO"

(To my surprise, i also thought the same way but had no confidence to say it because of lack of authority on the subject). If i m not wrong, then this answer of your implies that it does not necessarily require a person to know the word "philosophy" itself to be a philosopher. Yet, as my suspicions are : every discipline of knowledge have philosophy, so every one who is engaged in any discipline of education(not only philosophy) and knowledge will naturally come in contact with its philosophy. On the basis of my assumptions, i am one of the opinion that every person should study deep in their own particular subjects, and will naturally arrive at the philosophical stage of it with due progress( even as per ur own statements that philosophy is to be found in religion, science and arts also). However for some special interests, it is not a bad idea to explore more about it, whether by reading, pondering or by discussions etc. But if some one does not have any special interests, then i think that its a mere wastage of time, while some one can be doing anything more productive, in some other field of interest, by the time.

Now, to my question that :Can philosophy be a framed and an independent body of knowledge or does it exist incorporated with almost every sort of it ?

Wikipaedia's definition declares it to be an "Academic Discipline, while ur remark says that

philosopher is the one who is a lover of wisdom

. Here I feel a contradiction in the statements and the logics they imply. Since, u have formerly declared it by urself that it does not necessarily require philosophical literature to make a philosopher. Please do enlighten me about it so that the matter becomes a bit more clear.

Now tell me is there anything which is out of the scope of philosophy (even emotions are discussed in philosophy mostly).

If I say "no", then this should imply that a philosopher should be able to either perform a surgery to save a life, build some machines or devise a circuitry, paint like an artist and do specialized tasks like that. In reality, the case is rather different. No philosopher can be a doctor but a doctor can be a philosopher, and the same is true for every other professional. So, my own limited point of view concludes that there is no professional discipline in philosophy, rather philosophy itself resides in each one of it. Yet, it does not imply that a philosopher cannot do anything at all. Rather, by having an empirical knowledge of almost everything, philosophers can be good decision makers, policy makers, debaters, intellectual writers and teachers etc.
But for the welfare of humankind, every one has to contribute according to his own responsibilities, skills and resources etc. As I said it earlier that:

"Every one has to play his part"...... and necessarily not only by the philosophers alone, and essentially, not even apart.

And this was the theme of my post. Hope u understand it in good faith.
And I am sure that Maiji is not hurt with your reply, as no humane soul could be, so cheer up

Take care

[Sohail Shuja]

And nonetheless, your "love of wisdom" is appreciable

Take care

[Londoner]

Well,yaar i neither got any philosophy nor simplosophy,
i jus got few peoply making apologies to eachother on one ground or the other...If Concerned bhai wants us to see other enviable Forums as he has mentioned discussing philosophicallly n fruitflly the mundane matters n beyond then y the crux of postings as above goes fruitless n unphilosophical...?

Why these sorries n not sorries n consequent apologies...

Philosophers r those who r able to give some alms of guidance,education,etc r never meant to withdraw as instantaneously from their verdict as ppl doin claiming n doin here...

For the sake of highly respectable proffession of philosophy,r for the sake of personal grudging,r for the sake of Humanity itself,,,,,ir at least for the sake of this focussed Forum, is there any body to spare us of false impressions,etc...

Regards

[Sohail Shuja]

Salaam,

@Londoner

i jus got few peoply making apologies to eachother on one ground or the other.

The ground is just one and that is of "Humanity", and thats why u got people here apologizing to each other, if there is something like that. I think it is for the sake of maintaining a good will during an argument. Well, u have a right to perceive the fact as u may like.

If Concerned bhai wants us to see other enviable Forums as he has mentioned discussing philosophicallly n fruitflly the mundane matters n beyond then y the crux of postings as above goes fruitless n unphilosophical...?

Every one necessarily does not have the same perception. Since, u have come up to your conclusion that all this should not be going around is your learning out of the discussion. So, should I call it fruitless ? For being unphilosophical; sorry buddy, i don't reserve any rights to declare it didactically (since i m not a professional philosopher).

For the sake of highly respectable proffession of philosophy,r for the sake of personal grudging,r for the sake of Humanity itself,

I think that there is no essence of personal grudge. Clarification of ones ideas is necessary. Besides we barely know each other, so how there could be a hue of avarice ?

ir at least for the sake of this focussed Forum, is there any body to spare us of false impressions,etc...

Mr, before making any remark of this sort, u should be very clear and specific about it, otherwise it just appears as a false blame and pretty inhumane behavior in itself.

During any sort of argumentation, there always is a condition where both believe that they are right, while in most of the cases, only one is. But the conclusion cannot be reached before the two express themselves to each other, and for the sake of it, give arguments and counter argument in order to clear out any misconceptions and validate the under discussed idea from different angles. This necessarily does not constitute a row and most certainly that is why you have come across the apologies to each other made above- in order to assure each other that this argumentation does not involve any personal grudge etc. Btw, any inflictions sustained because of this argumentation, whether personal or impersonal are purely un-intentional and we are extremely sorry for that. Take my word for it.

Take care

[Concerned]

@ sohail Sujja
Brother I couldn't find time early to post, my message, coz I was in a bit of bother(like a war with my views and myself) but now my eyes have opened alot.

Brother that was what I wanted to make out of u and all those that say studying medicine or surgery alone would make good doctors or surgeons. But I am not interested in making good surgeons unless they are not good HUMANS. And to make good humans and intellects u need not only the knowledge of medicine but also the knowledge of philosophy, ethics, Law, and most importantly RELIGION. That is what I am trying to tell everybody that ur curriculum needs to be changed.
We must study Religion in its true spirit with the translation and Explanation(tafseer of Quran), and also the Hadiths( especailly Sahih-bukhari and the rest of five authenticated hadiths books but this shud be minimum, and more shud be studied on ur own). We shud give the first 5 yrs of education to Religion alone (may be a bit of other languages like Arabic and English as well in their basics). After that we shud must study Philosophy in general, ethics in fullest, law applicable to common man, etc for 2 yrs. Then the study of respected fields shud be started and I tell u that u will be amazed to see how many Good intellects which are not only intellects but also good humans and good muslims will rise. But the knowledge of religion and philosophy must go on and on and on. That is all I think.
And yes abut Wikipedia Philosophy is an academic subject if u take in that way, I mean if u take it as ur major and do PHd's etc in it, but it is also the foundation of everyother discipline except one:
Here is an extract 4m the book written by Allama Iqbal that will make u clear what philosophy can cover and what it can not.

"To rationalize faith is not to admit the superiority of philosophy over religion. Philosophy, no doubt, has jusrisdiction to judge religion, but what is to be judged is of such a nature that it will not submit to the jurisdiction of philosophy except on its own terms. While sitting in judgement on religion, philosophy can't give religion an inferior place among its data. religion is not a departmental affair; its neither a mere thought, nor mere feeling, nor mere action; its an expression of the whole man. Thus, in the evaluation of religion, philosophy must recognize the central position of religion and has no other alternatives but to admit something focal in the process of reflective synthesis."

Extract 4m "The reconstruction of Religious thought in ISlam" by Dr. Allam Iqbal. Infact u shud try to read this book, its small but in meanings its an ocean...

This was the answer to the battle that I was having with my-self. The whole thing is difficult to explain what happened but how it happened it made me stunned 4 several days. Some keypoints which extracted are... well When I was explaining I cud not... I can tell u only that KNowledge is POWER and MOST imp KNOWLEDGE IS THAT of our Religion and after that Knowledge of EVERYTHING. Its that most imp: as Quran itself says those who know and those who don't can't be equal. U will find it difficult to understand but when it will happen it will just happen and u wil be stunned what we were doing and what we supposed to be doing.

And Yes my appologies that I mis-interpreted u what u said abut may I have more good friends... I have no problems in accepting my flaws...

Again one more point to ponder is that all Muslim Scientists were great not only gr8 in Physics, bio, or etc, they were good at RELIGION, philosophy, ethics, bits of medicine, languages (linguistics + literature), law related to common man, etc. This was also the speciality of gr8 muslim rulers of India, but when they left these disciplines of knowledge they were doomed as most of us are now-a-days.

I hope u will understand what I was trying to say.
Thnx! again hope this will be benefited not only to u but may be someone else get the idea and may be he, or u or I will make an effort to get things right. And it will be beneficial to the country as well.
Well I will not be coming to this forum again, may be sometime in future coz now my priorities have been changed, I have to gain knowledge and I have wasted so much time, I need to catch up.
Hope if u liked the message u will spread it....
Allah hafiz
Regards.
Concerned and Angry with himself....